Am I missing something? Is there a rule that states you can't shift your lineman once drafted? We had Okung in the building and let him walk because he preferred LT and we wouldn't move Flowers to right? We've moved Pugh around but coaches afraid Flowers to RT would stunt his development? Gas mask Tunsil was there for the taking. Miami still laughing at every team who passed on him. Dare I say Pettigout & gt; Flowers? Or is it just sophomore slump? Frustrating to say the least with this guy.
And when the Giants are intent on something, they can wait forever for it to happen...even if it doesn't.
You normally don't draft an OL top 10 to play RT or G.
They may wind up there but if they do it's sort of seen as a failed pick.
they had Pugh at 19 and he wound up a guard and now if Flowers at 9 winds up a RT or G it just makes them look worse.
I believe the ends are more important than the means and if Pugh can be a good guard and Flowers a good RT who cares, but that's not generally how the picks will be viewed.
It's a tough situation, because he has all the tools.. with the exception of good balance. Don't know if that is teachable.
It's a tough situation, because he has all the tools.. with the exception of good balance. Don't know if that is teachable.
Good balance and quick feet.
Personally, If they think Beatty can physically hold up I'd put him at LT and put Flowers on the Bench until he proves he can play with consistent technique.
Agree, it's just so dumb.
I'd say the only reason he hasn't been moved is that they're waiting to get Beatty back into shape. Either that, or they're resolved to letting him work out his issues, whenever that might be. That could easily end up costing the Giants their season and Reese his job.
When Beatty went down, I was more in favor of finding a LT. But, once they moved Flowers to LT, it seemed like the organization was committed to him playing there long term. Whether or not you agree with that, he is likely entrenched there a little longer, unless they are 100% confident Beatty can still play LT in the NFL. That is a big question.
I, for one, would still be pleased if Flowers moved to RT and ended up being the dominant force many expected him to be. I don't care where he was selected. If a guy plays at a very high level, which just about everyone was expecting at RT, then he is a good pick. Period.
If Beatty isn't your LT, then there really isn't a better alternative. You have to hope Flowers improves, as does the coaching of him and the OL in general.
You normally don't draft an OL top 10 to play RT or G.
They may wind up there but if they do it's sort of seen as a failed pick.
they had Pugh at 19 and he wound up a guard and now if Flowers at 9 winds up a RT or G it just makes them look worse.
I believe the ends are more important than the means and if Pugh can be a good guard and Flowers a good RT who cares, but that's not generally how the picks will be viewed.
Both Pugh and Richburg played out of the position they were drafted. If you think a GM is dictating where coaches line up players on the field you are kidding yourself.
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is Reese protecting Reese.
You normally don't draft an OL top 10 to play RT or G.
They may wind up there but if they do it's sort of seen as a failed pick.
they had Pugh at 19 and he wound up a guard and now if Flowers at 9 winds up a RT or G it just makes them look worse.
I believe the ends are more important than the means and if Pugh can be a good guard and Flowers a good RT who cares, but that's not generally how the picks will be viewed.
Both Pugh and Richburg played out of the position they were drafted. If you think a GM is dictating where coaches line up players on the field you are kidding yourself.
As for Richburg, they played him at LG out of necessity. He wasn't going to start at all, until injuries hit, forcing Jerry to RT. I still would have started Richburg at OC given the alternative, though.
Do they not see what the fans, other teams scouts and analysts see? Oh, I forgot, we're idiot know-nothing fans, we can't see DE's running around Flowers like he's a subway turnstile.
It would be a complete indictment of the scouts and FO based on all the post-draft comments about Pugh and Flowers if they move both out of their draft spots.
Otherwise explain it to me.
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In comment 13169552 pjcas18 said:
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is Reese protecting Reese.
You normally don't draft an OL top 10 to play RT or G.
They may wind up there but if they do it's sort of seen as a failed pick.
they had Pugh at 19 and he wound up a guard and now if Flowers at 9 winds up a RT or G it just makes them look worse.
I believe the ends are more important than the means and if Pugh can be a good guard and Flowers a good RT who cares, but that's not generally how the picks will be viewed.
Both Pugh and Richburg played out of the position they were drafted. If you think a GM is dictating where coaches line up players on the field you are kidding yourself.
Pugh was drafted to play OT. It wasn't until he declined at Rt that the talk of him playing OG began. Now, if you say he was drafted to play LT, I don't recall that specifically, because they had Beatty there.
As for Richburg, they played him at LG out of necessity. He wasn't going to start at all, until injuries hit, forcing Jerry to RT. I still would have started Richburg at OC given the alternative, though.
Flowers was going to play at RT when drafted. Beatty was healthy and the starting LT. There was discussion about Pugh competing with Flowers at RT or taking a few snaps at LT. Hell Schartz was still on the roster and the talk was whether he be at LG, RG or RT. Beatty gets hurt along with Schwartz and in pops Newhouse and JJ into the starting lineup. Those guys were to be backups.
Do they not see what the fans, other teams scouts and analysts see? Oh, I forgot, we're idiot know-nothing fans, we can't see DE's running around Flowers like he's a subway turnstile.
It would be a complete indictment of the scouts and FO based on all the post-draft comments about Pugh and Flowers if they move both out of their draft spots.
Otherwise explain it to me.
Coaches make those calls. Whether they feel Eli Apple can play slot or they move DRC to it. It's their call. Not a GM's.
Do they not see what the fans, other teams scouts and analysts see? Oh, I forgot, we're idiot know-nothing fans, we can't see DE's running around Flowers like he's a subway turnstile.
It would be a complete indictment of the scouts and FO based on all the post-draft comments about Pugh and Flowers if they move both out of their draft spots.
Otherwise explain it to me.
Flowers wasn't as bad last year as he is this year. They were short on options last year, so even if they wanted to move him, we wouldn't know.
He's much worse this year, and they have nobody to step in at LT, unless you weaken the line in another spot and move over Pugh. I don't think they would have signed Beatty without wanting to try to get him inserted into the starting lineup, so his progress will be something to watch.
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how do you explain the Giants both keeping Flowers at LT or even putting him there initially?
Do they not see what the fans, other teams scouts and analysts see? Oh, I forgot, we're idiot know-nothing fans, we can't see DE's running around Flowers like he's a subway turnstile.
It would be a complete indictment of the scouts and FO based on all the post-draft comments about Pugh and Flowers if they move both out of their draft spots.
Otherwise explain it to me.
Coaches make those calls. Whether they feel Eli Apple can play slot or they move DRC to it. It's their call. Not a GM's.
So you think coaches have complete autonomy to play who they want when they want and where they want with total disregard to draft status and no pressure from the front office?
Way too soon to be giving up on him at LT. And in case people forgot, Beatty wasn't very good.
that's pretty close to what I believe is true.
Only it's not just Reese. Go back and read what Reese, Coughlin and Ross all had to say about Flowers post-draft. It was a total whiff. So far.
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how do you explain the Giants both keeping Flowers at LT or even putting him there initially?
Do they not see what the fans, other teams scouts and analysts see? Oh, I forgot, we're idiot know-nothing fans, we can't see DE's running around Flowers like he's a subway turnstile.
It would be a complete indictment of the scouts and FO based on all the post-draft comments about Pugh and Flowers if they move both out of their draft spots.
Otherwise explain it to me.
Flowers wasn't as bad last year as he is this year. They were short on options last year, so even if they wanted to move him, we wouldn't know.
He's much worse this year, and they have nobody to step in at LT, unless you weaken the line in another spot and move over Pugh. I don't think they would have signed Beatty without wanting to try to get him inserted into the starting lineup, so his progress will be something to watch.
Flowers was the worst graded starting LT by PFF last year, so ok, everyone hates PFF, he was also regarded as one of the overall worst first round picks last year by multiple sources.
Way too soon to be giving up on him at LT. And in case people forgot, Beatty wasn't very good.
Beatty at his worst was Joe Thomas compared with Flowers.
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In comment 13169552 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is Reese protecting Reese.
You normally don't draft an OL top 10 to play RT or G.
They may wind up there but if they do it's sort of seen as a failed pick.
they had Pugh at 19 and he wound up a guard and now if Flowers at 9 winds up a RT or G it just makes them look worse.
I believe the ends are more important than the means and if Pugh can be a good guard and Flowers a good RT who cares, but that's not generally how the picks will be viewed.
Both Pugh and Richburg played out of the position they were drafted. If you think a GM is dictating where coaches line up players on the field you are kidding yourself.
Pugh was drafted to play OT. It wasn't until he declined at Rt that the talk of him playing OG began. Now, if you say he was drafted to play LT, I don't recall that specifically, because they had Beatty there.
As for Richburg, they played him at LG out of necessity. He wasn't going to start at all, until injuries hit, forcing Jerry to RT. I still would have started Richburg at OC given the alternative, though.
Pugh at G was mentioned on draft day, it was stated it may be his best position....And his play didn't declined at RT, he was hurt in his second year. He was our best OL as a rookie.
- Flowers has not been worse this year vs last year. Your memory is only fixated on Sunday night.
- Flowers has played for just over 1 year (in every game mind you), and he is already by de facto the worst pick in last years draft?
Here are some external links: PFF: they had some first round picks miss the entire season with injury and some who simply didn't play, so I guess you could rank Flowers ahead of them, of the players graded from the first round, they had Flowers the lowest. and Flowers was their lowest rated LT https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-how-are-all-32-rookies-faring-in-the-2015-season/
Bleacher Report: Flowers top 5 worst first round pick
What's worse than selecting an offensive guard in the top five? Selecting the next best one in the top 10. Like Washington, the New York Giants said Ereck Flowers will play tackle as he did in college, according to Bill Pennington of The New York Times.
Not only did the Giants seem to reach for a need in the top 10, but they pretty much have to play Flowers at tackle to justify the pick. It's no secret the Giants wanted Scherff, but the board fell in such a way that they didn't get Williams, Beasley or either of the two top wide receivers in Amari Cooper and Kevin White.
It was a perfect opportunity to roll the dice on a top talent like running back Todd Gurley, who could have helped quarterback Eli Manning just as much as Flowers. While Flowers has potential as a tackle, he'll need to be a good one on the left side to make this pick worth it in hindsight.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2450882-nfl-draft-2015-the-worst-picks-of-the-year/page/3
From a Peter King MMQB in May of 2015 before Flowers took a snap.
and there are many more....
and I'll caveat all this by saying I 100% want Flowers to succeed and be a blue goose franchise left tackle, but if he excels at RT I don't care fine with me, if he moves to guard and is a road grader cool with me, but he is not a good LT 21 games is not a small sample and if you think he's improving, I think it's because the bar from his rookie year was so low.
And I absolutely believe he looked lost in Green Bay, but not in the couple of games this year before that so I don't know why the latest game is the only measuring stick...at least for this year.
Great or competent?
In either case you don't really have that luxury in the current CBA. 11 more games and Flowers is halfway through his rookie deal. When you pick a guy in the first round, especially at 9 the assumption has to be he can step in and at least hold his own (not be great) immediately or you don't take him at 9.
IMO.
IMO
Thomas->Pugh->Richburg->Jerry->Flowers looks like a brand new OL to me. A very good run and pass blocking line at that.