Reese is a good GM

I think Reese would be hired in ten seconds if we ever let him go.

But he has a blind spot or ego that is unacceptable.

He refuses to pivot when needed.

In comment 13170170 George from PA said:

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But he has a blind spot or ego that is unacceptable. He refuses to pivot when needed.

What is this based on exactly? This sounds like something BBI makes up.

I'm sure it's the "We have no dominant linebackers!" stuff.

There are no complete teams in the NFL. Every team has holes.

and OL's can be found a dime a dozen in the scrap heap...

for the Giants were all brought in before JR became a GM.. the team that went 12-4 in 2008 was also barely influenced by him..

In comment 13170169 Sean said:

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I think Reese would be hired in ten seconds if we ever let him go.

Good for him.. I pity the team that hires him..

but remember the 2007 team was basically built by Ernie and the foundation of the 2011 team had some Ernie imprints on it although it was mostly Reese, he generally get his top picks right. On the other side of the ledger, his late round picks have been spotty, at best. He often ignores injury issues in FA (Walter Thurmond etc), He often overpays for FA like Harris and possibly OV, and he stubbornly neglects problem areas such as LB, TE, and in a lesser deal the OL (he has drafted Flowers, Pugh, and Richberg all in first and second rounds).

In the end, I think he is ok, but far from perfect.

a two-time SB winning coach, they can fire the GM. Nothing would surprise me at this point. If the Giants end up 6-10 or worse, I will not be the least bit surprised if they go in a different direction.

In comment 13170189 Rick5 said:

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a two-time SB winning coach, they can fire the GM. Nothing would surprise me at this point. If the Giants end up 6-10 or worse, I will not be the least bit surprised if they go in a different direction.

Reese would not survive a 6-10 season. But I doubt that's going to happen. However , if Philadelphia and Dallas are as good as they seem to be .,.

built the 2007 team and the core for 2011. I'm not saying Reese is a bad GM, but you spend 200 million on defense and do NOTHING to upgrade this O-line and protect your 35 year old stationary QB?????????

because Reese failed one of the major things a GM must do and that is look ahead. He did not see or acknowledge that the offensive and defensive lines were deteriorating and invest in the lines appropriately. Most have said his recent drafts have addressed the offensive line by drafting Flowers, Pugh and Richburg high but the jury is still out on Flowers. the right side of the line is as weak as there is in the NFL and the depth is questionable.

He has ignored needs at key positions like TE and LB and this year we don't even have a fullback although that may be more on McAdoo than him. Nonetheless, personally, I just don't like his vision going forward.

The Giants, as a team, have no philosophy or identity, something pointed out last week. To me, if we are going to evaluate (and we did) Coughlin then we must evaluate Reese in the same manner. We have been a non-playoff team since 2011 and had missed the previous two years. The way things look right now, our playoff chances this year seem remote, at best.

In any other market, Reese would have been fired a long time ago. He has failed in getting good players from Rounds 4-7, one could even say round 3. This is a results oriented business and the results say Jerry Reese is a poor GM. Frankly, that's all I care about...are we competitive each year, have we been consistently in the playoffs. The answer to that is no.

In comment 13170177 chuckydee9 said:

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for the Giants were all brought in before JR became a GM.. the team that went 12-4 in 2008 was also barely influenced by him..

We don't win the Super Bowl without JR's draft class that year. JR was also responsible for helping identify and find the talent that Accorsi drafted.

Reese is a good GM but he had a few horrific drafts in a 2-3 year span that killed the roster. And waiting too long to get the OL going in Eli's prime years after the 11' run hurt big time.

.

Reese took a chance on him and he got hurt. The next year Philadelphia took a chance on him and he nearly made the Pro Bowl. So Reese is an idiot and the Eagles GM is a genius? Give me a break.

The team is not winning

They don't win games

Reese is not the worst GM but he is not good.

given what our GM says, thinks, and does are all likely completely different. There's a lot of definitive statements being made (not shocked) that we have absolutely no evidence on. He's not thinking forward? What? How can anyone come to that conclusion?

We are in a rut and have been in one for a while. Maybe Reese is the problem, but maybe he isn't. Maybe we are going through the same shitty run that other 20-25 teams in the NFL are currently going through.

In comment 13170201 Giantology said:

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In comment 13170177 chuckydee9 said: Quote: for the Giants were all brought in before JR became a GM.. the team that went 12-4 in 2008 was also barely influenced by him.. We don't win the Super Bowl without JR's draft class that year. JR was also responsible for helping identify and find the talent that Accorsi drafted.

Really.. only one of those players ever made a probowl.. and if use that standard then about 40 players brought in before he became a GM helped us win superbowl.. Alford had 1 sack, Bradshaw was good but ward was better during the sessions where the giants were actually good..toomer and plax were far more important cogs than Steve Smith in 2007.. and the dline and OL which were the main strengths of those teams were built before he became GM...
He may be great at identifying first round talents but that doesn't make him a good GM.. once Ernie's built OL became old.. this guy's has put together some of the worst OL in the game... Cleveland has a better OL.. And if it weren't for Manning we would be Cleveland over the past 5 years..

and the pieces just aren't coming together. He brought in guys this offseason and made offers. He isn't ignoring the O-Line, that's such a preposterous statement. Flowers, Richburg, Pugh are all high picks, and he spent money on guys like Beatty (trying to keep our own) and Schwartz who both burned us with injuries.

I'm fine with people thinking he's done a poor job in areas, but to claim he's ignoring the O-Line is ridiculous.

In comment 13170226 UConn4523 said:

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and the pieces just aren't coming together. He brought in guys this offseason and made offers. He isn't ignoring the O-Line, that's such a preposterous statement. Flowers, Richburg, Pugh are all high picks, and he spent money on guys like Beatty (trying to keep our own) and Schwartz who both burned us with injuries. I'm fine with people thinking he's done a poor job in areas, but to claim he's ignoring the O-Line is ridiculous.

But he sucks at building one.. which is worse..

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I would dispute this heavily... That’s Gold, Jerry : 8:25 am : link : reply because Reese failed one of the major things a GM must do and that is look ahead. He did not see or acknowledge that the offensive and defensive lines were deteriorating and invest in the lines appropriately. Most have said his recent drafts have addressed the offensive line by drafting Flowers, Pugh and Richburg high but the jury is still out on Flowers. the right side of the line is as weak as there is in the NFL and the depth is questionable.

While I agree with you. To play devils advocate, Reese has had some incredibly bad injuries to some key players that needed to be replaced via the draft. This caused neglect in the o line.

Pro Bowl players in Nicks and Steve Smith had to be replaced due to injury.

Good to Above average players in Kenny Phillips, Kevin Boss, Manningham, Terrell Thomas (though he had an injury history before he was drafted). Even Goff looked like he was coming on.

And it looks like another superstar caliber player, JPP, may never be the same player again.

If even half these players stayed healthy, Reese may have been able to go a different direction in the draft.

TC, now they blame McAdoo. It's time for Reese to go

In comment 13170224 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 13170201 Giantology said: Quote: In comment 13170177 chuckydee9 said: Quote: for the Giants were all brought in before JR became a GM.. the team that went 12-4 in 2008 was also barely influenced by him.. We don't win the Super Bowl without JR's draft class that year. JR was also responsible for helping identify and find the talent that Accorsi drafted. Really.. only one of those players ever made a probowl.. and if use that standard then about 40 players brought in before he became a GM helped us win superbowl.. Alford had 1 sack, Bradshaw was good but ward was better during the sessions where the giants were actually good..toomer and plax were far more important cogs than Steve Smith in 2007.. and the dline and OL which were the main strengths of those teams were built before he became GM... He may be great at identifying first round talents but that doesn't make him a good GM.. once Ernie's built OL became old.. this guy's has put together some of the worst OL in the game... Cleveland has a better OL.. And if it weren't for Manning we would be Cleveland over the past 5 years..

So players have to make the Pro Bowl to be valuable draft picks? What a great standard, especially since the Pro Bowl is nothing more than a popularity contest.

You can deny it all you want, but Reese brought in lots of players that contributed to 2 Super Bowl trophies that weren't drafted or signed by Accorsi. That doesn't mean he's the best GM ever and doesn't deserve criticism.

In comment 13170235 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 13170226 UConn4523 said: Quote: and the pieces just aren't coming together. He brought in guys this offseason and made offers. He isn't ignoring the O-Line, that's such a preposterous statement. Flowers, Richburg, Pugh are all high picks, and he spent money on guys like Beatty (trying to keep our own) and Schwartz who both burned us with injuries. I'm fine with people thinking he's done a poor job in areas, but to claim he's ignoring the O-Line is ridiculous. But he sucks at building one.. which is worse..

That's completely fine if you think that, I find that to be a pretty reasonable assessment. But, you are sure putting a ton of stock in the GM and nothing on the coaches developing them or the players themselves growing and improving.

BBI like to blame singular entities for our failures, those that do make me think they've never played a sport before.

April Fools Day isn't for another 6 months.

In 2009 he took Beatty. Four years later he took Pugh who is now in his fourth year. Richburg a year later and then Flowers. He's basically had seven drafts and has come away with three linemen. One who is struggling, two positions are practically vacant and has zero depth.

In 2007 and 2008.. were built by Ernie.. JR's roster is what Brown's fan wouldn't trade for their..

In comment 13170210 WillieYoung said:

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Reese took a chance on him and he got hurt. The next year Philadelphia took a chance on him and he nearly made the Pro Bowl. So Reese is an idiot and the Eagles GM is a genius? Give me a break.

Do you realize the illogical nature of argument. You are saying because the gamble worked for one team (that was 10-6 the year before they did it) and didn't work for us that makes it fine. I am saying is that when you are 6-10, you don't make those gambles and give up a roster spot to a guy who had four surgeries in 5 years. The risk benefit is all out of whack, especially for a team coming off a losing record.

In comment 13170253 chuckydee9 said:

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In 2007 and 2008.. were built by Ernie.. JR's roster is what Brown's fan wouldn't trade for their..

Let's be fair. Reese was in that draft room too. Besides Snee, Seubert and Diehl weren't high picks while O'Hara and McKeenzie were free agents. The whole organization hasn't focussed on the OL as much as they should. Look at the drafts for all,of Eli's career.

In comment 13170253 chuckydee9 said:

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In 2007 and 2008.. were built by Ernie.. JR's roster is what Brown's fan wouldn't trade for their..

Or you can be ignorant all you want and ignore all of the players that Reese brought in that contributed heavily to two championships. And then minimize their contributions by pointing out that they weren't Pro Bowl players (like anyone gives a shit that Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Aaron Ross, Ahmad Bradshaw, etc. weren't Pro Bowl players).

We are 57-60 with a franchise QB.. If you add playoffs we are 61-61.. I used 2009 since I takes 2 years before a roster changes from old gm to new gm show the impact of new GM.. considering JR was not the GM when we got our franchise qb.. and a ready made young one was provided to him.. I can't see how anyone can argue he has been bad..

We have had an incomplete team for 5 years now. In the NFL 5 years is a lifetime. He needs to go ASAP.

improving your roster. It was a 1 year $3.5 million deal. And 6-10 can easily be 10-6 for any team in the NFL, we see it every year.

I know fans want to think it takes 5 years to "rebuild" but it doesn't, its not 1990 anymore.

In comment 13170246 The_Boss said:

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April Fools Day isn't for another 6 months.

What are you going to do when Reese is gone? You'll have to find another shtick.

In comment 13170277 Giants86 said:

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We have had an incomplete team for 5 years now. In the NFL 5 years is a lifetime. He needs to go ASAP.

What is a "complete" NFL team?

.

In comment 13170279 UConn4523 said:

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improving your roster. It was a 1 year $3.5 million deal. And 6-10 can easily be 10-6 for any team in the NFL, we see it every year. I know fans want to think it takes 5 years to "rebuild" but it doesn't, its not 1990 anymore.

This is the problem. Most of BBI is stuck in 1986. All teams MUST BE DOMINATE. COMPLETE. DEPTH.

None of those things actually exist in 2016.

he also drafted Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck in the second and third rounds respectively, two stalwarts on both championship team's lines. As we know games are won and lost in the trenches, and Accorsi built those trenches on both championship teams.

He also signed Antonio Pierce, who was the last good linebacker we had. And that's just a few of the guys that Accorsi brought in that were a strong core of our run of success from 2005-2011.

Say what you want, but those are three places where Reese has failed. I'd like to hear an argument of how Reese has replaced or rebuilt a core like the one Accorsi built. As arc said yesterday, all he's done, unsuccessfully, is plug holes from a decade old core of a football team.

Despite dumping two 1sts, a 2nd, and lots of FA money into the line, it still sucks. The line that Accorsi built started to crumble in 2009. Coughlin and Eli squeezed one more championship out of it. The signs were there that O'hara, Diehl, and Snee were struggling, but it was ignored. Coughlin got the blame for the state of the 2012 because he "held onto his guys" for too long. WRONG. He had nobody better to replace them with because Reese, despite the line cracking in 2009, didn't start addressing it until 2011 with Baas (a bust of a FA signing), and then finally in 2013 through the draft. I guess I forgot about Beatty in 2009, but as we know, he is forgettable.

Dave Diehl, for all the shit he gets here, was a 5th round pick who was a two time all pro, started at every position on the line at some point, and played left tackle for two championship teams. A 5th round pick. O'hara and Kareem McKenzie were Accorsi FA signings. Suebert was undrafted! Snee was the only high pick, and he was chosen in the 2nd round.

And if you think Accorsi got lucky and caught lightning in a bottle, remember that he built the ragtag group of veteran O-linemen that took us to the Superbowl in 2000 as well, which he earned the Lamar Hunt Executive of the Year award for. Remember Thunder and Lightning?

So yeah, I guess Reese has finally addressed the O-line, but what are the results? Disastrous so far. Just like all of our high picks under Reese, how many are going to get a second contract with us?

I'm not saying to fire the guy right now, but the results speak for themselves. I see a lot of you saying we're coming off two good drafts. Well did anybody think the four years of shitty drafts were shitty right after we had them? No, everybody had a hard on for them. I keep hearing about potential, but I'm sick of potential. We need results now.

2008 first round pick Kenny Phillips: Gone
2009 first round pick Hakeem Nicks: Gone
2010 first round pick Pierre Paul: still here, will he be for much longer?
2011 first round pick: Prince Amakumura: Gone
2012 first round pick: David Wilson: Gone

2007 second round pick Steve Smith: Gone
2008 second round pick Terrell Thomas: Gone
2009 second round pick Clint Sintim: Gone
2010 second round pick Linval Joseph (!): Gone
2011 second round pick Marvin Austin: Gone
2012 second round pick Reuben Randall: Gone

Those are supposed to be our core guys!!!!!!!!!!!

We only have ONE pick out of 12 1st and second round picks between 2007-2012 still on the team!

ONE! And he may be on the way out, too!

Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director?

2007: Jay Alford: Gone
2008: Mario Manningham: Gone
2009: Will Beatty: Gone, now back as a backup.
2010: Chad Jones: Gone (not Reese's fault)
2011: Jerrel Jernigan: Gone
2012: Jayron Hosley: Gone

In comment 13170307 Greg from LI said:

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Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director?

No, my bad. Let's stick to Reeses results in rounds one through three that I posted above, when he was in complete control.

In comment 13170300 Britt in VA said:

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2008 first round pick Kenny Phillips: Gone [CAREER ENDING INJURIES] 2009 first round pick Hakeem Nicks: Gone [CAREER ENDING INJURIES] 2010 first round pick Pierre Paul: still here, will he be for much longer? 2011 first round pick: Prince Amakumura: Gone [CONSTANTLY HURT] 2012 first round pick: David Wilson: Gone [CAREER ENDING INJURIES] 2007 second round pick Steve Smith: [CAREER ENDING INJURIES] 2008 second round pick Terrell Thomas: [CAREER ENDING INJURIES] 2009 second round pick Clint Sintim: Gone 2010 second round pick Linval Joseph (!): Gone 2011 second round pick Marvin Austin: Gone 2012 second round pick Reuben Randall: Gone Those are supposed to be our core guys!!!!!!!!!!! We only have ONE pick out of 12 1st and second round picks between 2007-2012 still on the team! ONE! And he may be on the way out, too!

Should Jerry Reese have predicted that 5 of those guys wouldn't last in the NFL because of career-ending injuries?

In comment 13170300 Britt in VA said:

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2008 first round pick Kenny Phillips: Gone 2009 first round pick Hakeem Nicks: Gone 2010 first round pick Pierre Paul: still here, will he be for much longer? 2011 first round pick: Prince Amakumura: Gone 2012 first round pick: David Wilson: Gone 2007 second round pick Steve Smith: Gone 2008 second round pick Terrell Thomas: Gone 2009 second round pick Clint Sintim: Gone 2010 second round pick Linval Joseph (!): Gone 2011 second round pick Marvin Austin: Gone 2012 second round pick Reuben Randall: Gone Those are supposed to be our core guys!!!!!!!!!!! We only have ONE pick out of 12 1st and second round picks between 2007-2012 still on the team! ONE! And he may be on the way out, too!

Hello Britt. I am as frustrated as you (agree with your other thread)..But 5 of those guys on that list sustained career-ending/altering injuries.

That's not on Reese. I'm all for cleaning house if this year goes south, but we had no core because the core got hurt.

In comment 13170300 Britt in VA said:

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2008 first round pick Kenny Phillips: Gone 2009 first round pick Hakeem Nicks: Gone 2010 first round pick Pierre Paul: still here, will he be for much longer? 2011 first round pick: Prince Amakumura: Gone 2012 first round pick: David Wilson: Gone 2007 second round pick Steve Smith: Gone 2008 second round pick Terrell Thomas: Gone 2009 second round pick Clint Sintim: Gone 2010 second round pick Linval Joseph (!): Gone 2011 second round pick Marvin Austin: Gone 2012 second round pick Reuben Randall: Gone Those are supposed to be our core guys!!!!!!!!!!! We only have ONE pick out of 12 1st and second round picks between 2007-2012 still on the team! ONE! And he may be on the way out, too!

You're going to sit there and bitch about Phillips and Nicks and Wilson and Smith and Thomas and even Sintim without noting the catastrophic injuries those guys suffered? How disingenuous. Hell, even JPP - was it somehow a failure of Reese's that he didn't forsee that the guy would blow half of his hand off while playing with fireworks.

In comment 13170307 Greg from LI said:

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Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director?

It's amazing isn't it? Accorsi (AKA- "The Rug") was BBI enemy #1 around here. Now, he's a fucking Saint.

second.

Look at those drafts, rounds one through three 2007-2012.

Where are we struggling now? In the trenches. Look at all those picks and tell me how we were building a core in the trenches, which was the exact blueprint we had been working on that got us to three Superbowl games in an 11 year span.

In comment 13170307 Greg from LI said:

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Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director?

Demote JR to scouting director he seems to be very good at that..

In comment 13170312 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 13170307 Greg from LI said: Quote: Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director? No, my bad. Let's stick to Reeses results in rounds one through three that I posted above, when he was in complete control.

You really want to go down this road? Last chance.

The core of the 2000 team was almost entirely inherited from George Young. Yes, he built a decent line that lasted for exactly one season before falling completely apart. Wooooooooo!

In comment 13170309 Britt in VA said:

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2007: Jay Alford: Gone 2008: Mario Manningham: Gone 2009: Will Beatty: Gone, now back as a backup. 2010: Chad Jones: Gone (not Reese's fault) 2011: Jerrel Jernigan: Gone 2012: Jayron Hosley: Gone

If you're saying Jones wasn't Reese's fault (and it wasn't) then the likes of Nicks, Smith and Phillips aren't his fault either. You could probably add Wilson to that although I didn't particularly rate him. The team has had horrendous luck with career limiting/ending injuries to high picks.

due to injuries, and has he even played this year? He was a solid, above average CB when healthy. Just because a player isn't here anymore doesn't mean the pick was bad. See Linval Joseph where you can make the argument that better coaching has him resigned here.

Again, not everything is on Reese. The organization seems like its dysfunctional right now but there's no glaring reason as to why. Any proposed solution is throwing shit at the wall, so I won't bother trying to "figure it out". I will instead chalk this up to going through the NFL dog years and will look forward to the next time this team is in the playoffs, whenever that is.

In comment 13170325 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13170312 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170307 Greg from LI said: Quote: Do I need to go through Ernie's brilliant 1998-2002 drafts again? You know, the ones before Reese was scouting director? No, my bad. Let's stick to Reeses results in rounds one through three that I posted above, when he was in complete control. You really want to go down this road? Last chance. The core of the 2000 team was almost entirely inherited from George Young. Yes, he built a decent line that lasted for exactly one season before falling completely apart. Wooooooooo!

So he built a line, in one offseason, that got us to a Superbowl, you admit.

Reese has had five years, and thrown a shitload of resources and money into a line that may actually be worse than the carcass of a line we had in 2011.

why weren't they an excuse for Coughlin?

In comment 13170322 Britt in VA said:

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second. Look at those drafts, rounds one through three 2007-2012. Where are we struggling now? In the trenches. Look at all those picks and tell me how we were building a core in the trenches, which was the exact blueprint we had been working on that got us to three Superbowl games in an 11 year span.

2007/2011 O-line

KM - free agent, former 3rd rder
CS - 2nd rd
SO'H - free agent, former UDFA
RS - UDFA
KB - claimed off waivers, former 6th rder
DD - 5th rd

Some serious resources were devoted to those trenches.

so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck?

Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything.

In comment 13170335 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13170322 Britt in VA said: Quote: second. Look at those drafts, rounds one through three 2007-2012. Where are we struggling now? In the trenches. Look at all those picks and tell me how we were building a core in the trenches, which was the exact blueprint we had been working on that got us to three Superbowl games in an 11 year span. 2007/2011 O-line KM - free agent, former 3rd rder CS - 2nd rd SO'H - free agent, former UDFA RS - UDFA KB - claimed off waivers, former 6th rder DD - 5th rd Some serious resources were devoted to those trenches.

He didn't need to put the resources in it because he was hitting on every signing! So we could allocate our resources to other places, hence the championship team we got in 2007.

O'hara and McKenzie were big money signings. Reese signed Bass to big money.

are just not paying attention..

giants do not win either superbowl without the players reese picked up...

without the 07 draft class do the giants win the superbowl that year? no

in 11 he added boley who was their best linebacker, canty, antrel rolle to the defense..on offense he added nicks cruz and manningham...

how can anyone say he had no influence?

In comment 13170346 nygiants16 said:

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are just not paying attention.. giants do not win either superbowl without the players reese picked up... without the 07 draft class do the giants win the superbowl that year? no in 11 he added boley who was their best linebacker, canty, antrel rolle to the defense..on offense he added nicks cruz and manningham... how can anyone say he had no influence?

I never said he had no influence. I said the core of the team was built when Accorsi was the GM.

Since Reese has had total control, we now have no core. Chalk it up to whatever you want, but those are the results.

In comment 13170335 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 13170322 Britt in VA said: Quote: second. Look at those drafts, rounds one through three 2007-2012. Where are we struggling now? In the trenches. Look at all those picks and tell me how we were building a core in the trenches, which was the exact blueprint we had been working on that got us to three Superbowl games in an 11 year span. 2007/2011 O-line KM - free agent, former 3rd rder CS - 2nd rd SO'H - free agent, former UDFA RS - UDFA KB - claimed off waivers, former 6th rder DD - 5th rd Some serious resources were devoted to those trenches.

Your argument is stupid.. with less resources Ernie built the best OL in the league.. with much more resources and 5 years JR has built this crap we shouldn't be calling OL

as much as Tom Coughlin fans.

Both guys are hard to evaluate if for one simple reason - Eli Manning. Both tenures coincided with a franchise QB caliber starter who didn't miss a game. It's like Brady and Belichick - I'm a huge fan of Big Bill, and for small stretches, he's been pretty good without Brady (and working on a contingency QB, not something he planned for).

When Brady walks out of that building is when we find out what Belichick is really made of. And it looks like we might be doing the same with Reese right now.

They were adequate. The offense as a whole was adequate. That team's strength was defense, and the best players on it were inherited from GY - Strahan, Armstead, Sehorn. Eight defensive starters came aboard under Young, the exceptions being Barrow, Thomas, and Williams.

In comment 13170334 Britt in VA said:

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why weren't they an excuse for Coughlin?

The Giants lost too many close games last year that could be pinned on coaching to some extent. I do think the Giants were a better team than the record indicated last season.

It is difficult to call Reese a good GM.
A good GM does not allow the precipitous decline from years of success and Superbowl champions to a less than mediocre team.

In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said:

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so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything.

Everything has been changed other than GM and QB...

In comment 13170354 jcn56 said:

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as much as Tom Coughlin fans.

No kidding. There are quite a few here who I'm convinced fondle themselves when they see a picture of ol' TC. Probably the toupee, too.

In comment 13170355 Greg from LI said:

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They were adequate. The offense as a whole was adequate. That team's strength was defense, and the best players on it were inherited from GY - Strahan, Armstead, Sehorn. Eight defensive starters came aboard under Young, the exceptions being Barrow, Thomas, and Williams.

Boy, I'd love an adequate O-line for the past couple of years. Give me adequate to what Reese has built ALL DAY.

In comment 13170360 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13170354 jcn56 said: Quote: as much as Tom Coughlin fans. No kidding. There are quite a few here who I'm convinced fondle themselves when they see a picture of ol' TC. Probably the toupee, too.

Same should be said for someone who says JR is a good GM

Then went back into the toilet for three or four seasons. But sure, Accorsi was a fucking wizard.

BTW, the best lineman by far on that team was Ron Stone. I'll give you three guesses who brought him in. HINT: not Ernie fucking Accorsi.

All I'm doing is posting facts.

Accorsi wasn't the greatest GM, and yeah, we bitched about him a lot. But looking at the overall picture, him vs. Reese, both bodies of work?

Hell, the Eli Manning trade alone should put him well above Reese.

That is not the case in the Giants organization as I understand it. It is a group effort. Reese deserves some credit for the decision that were made prior to his elevation to GM.

I would maintain that the Giants made a mistake in 2012/2013 in trying to keep a group together for a run when the SB was going to be held at Metlife. It ended up not working out as players like Snee hit the wall earlier than is typical. Most would have assumed a player like Snee would have been effective into his 30's. That did not happen.

In comment 13170371 AnnapolisMike said:

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That is not the case in the Giants organization as I understand it. It is a group effort. Reese deserves some credit for the decision that were made prior to his elevation to GM. I would maintain that the Giants made a mistake in 2012/2013 in trying to keep a group together for a run when the SB was going to be held at Metlife. It ended up not working out as players like Snee hit the wall earlier than is typical. Most would have assumed a player like Snee would have been effective into his 30's. That did not happen.

The problem is, Snee started the visible decline in 2009. We all saw it. Him and O'hara were getting pushed back into the pocket most of the 2009 season. The running game suffered. It was obvious.

In comment 13170349 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13170346 nygiants16 said: Quote: are just not paying attention.. giants do not win either superbowl without the players reese picked up... without the 07 draft class do the giants win the superbowl that year? no in 11 he added boley who was their best linebacker, canty, antrel rolle to the defense..on offense he added nicks cruz and manningham... how can anyone say he had no influence? I never said he had no influence. I said the core of the team was built when Accorsi was the GM. Since Reese has had total control, we now have no core. Chalk it up to whatever you want, but those are the results.

so nicks cruz manningham, bradshaw, boley, rolle were not part of the core in 11?

were in the first round. Later rounds he excelled.

That changed with Reese, we actually got in some good first and later rounds.

Since Reese took over, I feel we do good in the first round, maybe even second round, but struggle in the later rounds.

We need someone who excels at finding the later round picks. Are we trending upwards now (with the last 2 drafts?) I don't know.

It's hard to blame Reese with all the crazy injuries this team has had. Some of those picks were players, they just didn't last too long.

In comment 13170359 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said: Quote: so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything. Everything has been changed other than GM and QB...

Yes, when things go bad the entire coaching staff and scouting team, along with the GM and franchiser QB should be dumped. Perfect course of action when things go south.

BBI Madden 2017.

In comment 13170377 nygiants16 said:
[quote] In comment 13170349 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13170346 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


are just not paying attention..

giants do not win either superbowl without the players reese picked up...

without the 07 draft class do the giants win the superbowl that year? no

in 11 he added boley who was their best linebacker, canty, antrel rolle to the defense..on offense he added nicks cruz and manningham...

how can anyone say he had no influence?



I never said he had no influence. I said the core of the team was built when Accorsi was the GM.

Since Reese has had total control, we now have no core. Chalk it up to whatever you want, but those are the results.



so nicks cruz manningham, bradshaw, boley, rolle were not part of the core in 11? [/quote

The Trenches. The lines. That's what I'm talking about here.

In comment 13170370 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

All I'm doing is posting facts. Hell, the Eli Manning trade alone should put him well above Reese.

i love eli and i am grateful for the superbowls but really would the giants be worse off with big ben?

in all honesty if yiu look at it truthfully he could of drafted big ben and kept the picks...

In comment 13170384 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170370 Britt in VA said: Quote: All I'm doing is posting facts. Hell, the Eli Manning trade alone should put him well above Reese. i love eli and i am grateful for the superbowls but really would the giants be worse off with big ben? in all honesty if yiu look at it truthfully he could of drafted big ben and kept the picks...

With the money saved from not having to sign those picks he signed Plaxico, McKenzie, and Pierce in a single offseason.

In comment 13170379 TheEvilLurker said:

Quote:

were in the first round. Later rounds he excelled.

Yes, in the rounds in which he had the least input, the results were much better because he was a fucking sportswriter whose gifts lay in self-promotion rather than judging talent.

In comment 13170375 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In The problem is, Snee started the visible decline in 2009. We all saw it. Him and O'hara were getting pushed back into the pocket most of the 2009 season. The running game suffered. It was obvious.

Agreed Britt

IMO and in addition, 2011 was the last gasp out of that OL group. The 2012 draft was the killer. Back to back, or at least one OL in the first two rounds was a must. They didn't even bother drafting one the entire draft.

In comment 13170367 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170360 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 13170354 jcn56 said: Quote: as much as Tom Coughlin fans. No kidding. There are quite a few here who I'm convinced fondle themselves when they see a picture of ol' TC. Probably the toupee, too. Same should be said for someone who says JR is a good GM

But that would imply someone said TC was a bad coach. You don't find too many of those.

We had to make a change - the results were no good for too long. Each of these positions has a different timeline. Coaches have shorter tenures than GMs, because their outlooks are different. TC was coach for 12 years - that's an eternity. He was also 70 years old. Combine the two, and if you need to start somewhere, it begins with him.

Don't worry, Reese will be next if we can't right the ship.

and i am not even saying it was a bad trade but if peoplw are truthful gianta would of been fine with big ben that is all i am saying

But the notion that he hasn't had incredibly bad luck with very good players and injuries is absurd. Yes, players get injured all the time, but guys on the Giants hardly ever come back from them. THAT'S unusual.

can scout and identify talent. He has been unable to build a sustainable roster.

When TC was canned Reese should have been let go,a new GM hired, and a whole new direction for this franchise with a clear vision and focus.

I refuse to believe there is not someone out there who can not build a sustainable competitive roster around Eli.

Then again, this a season is only five games old, the Giants could end up improving. A great deal depends on Richburg, Pugh and Flowers. All three must pan out , at least, viable long term starters.

In comment 13170375 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13170371 AnnapolisMike said: Quote: That is not the case in the Giants organization as I understand it. It is a group effort. Reese deserves some credit for the decision that were made prior to his elevation to GM. I would maintain that the Giants made a mistake in 2012/2013 in trying to keep a group together for a run when the SB was going to be held at Metlife. It ended up not working out as players like Snee hit the wall earlier than is typical. Most would have assumed a player like Snee would have been effective into his 30's. That did not happen. The problem is, Snee started the visible decline in 2009. We all saw it. Him and O'hara were getting pushed back into the pocket most of the 2009 season. The running game suffered. It was obvious.

Who was the HC? You know, the guy who was the father in law of Snee? What about when O'Hara went out, Suebert at C, running game excelled? Coughlin put O'Hara back in, running game went to shit again. He did the same with Diehl at RT.

Do people actually believe Coughlin had zero input into personnel?

The reason people defend Reese is the fact that Coughlin is constantly made out to be some of victim, while Jerry Reese is incompetent.

If you don't think TC was involved in personnel, then you cant be helped.

This team stunk plenty under Coughlin as well.

In comment 13170380 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170359 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said: Quote: so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything. Everything has been changed other than GM and QB... Yes, when things go bad the entire coaching staff and scouting team, along with the GM and franchiser QB should be dumped. Perfect course of action when things go south. BBI Madden 2017.

I am not saying to let go of the qb
. Just the GM... Bring the coach back for all I care.. talent is the problem with this team.. not coaching..

Accorsi wasn't exactly going out on a limb, either, given that Eli was pretty much the consensus top pick anyway. Being willing to trade as much as he did took guts, but Eli wasn't some unknown quantity like Phil Simms in 1979.

In comment 13170389 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

and i am not even saying it was a bad trade but if peoplw are truthful gianta would of been fine with big ben that is all i am saying

Maybe....not sure Ben has the temperament needed to be a QB in NY. Eli turned out to have the perfect temperament for NY. Maybe Ben would have been fine...but he was a small town, small school guy. With a reputation as a bit of a jerk. (I went to Miami and the word was he was a prick)

In comment 13170385 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13170384 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13170370 Britt in VA said: Quote: y in all honesty if yiu look at it truthfully he could of drafted big ben and kept the picks... With the money saved from not having to sign those picks he signed Plaxico, McKenzie, and Pierce in a single offseason.

Correct - britt hitting on all cylinders

In comment 13170394 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170380 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 13170359 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said: Quote: so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything. Everything has been changed other than GM and QB... Yes, when things go bad the entire coaching staff and scouting team, along with the GM and franchiser QB should be dumped. Perfect course of action when things go south. BBI Madden 2017. I am not saying to let go of the qb . Just the GM... Bring the coach back for all I care.. talent is the problem with this team.. not coaching..

anyone watching last year who doesnt think coaching was part of the problem is not paying attention

In comment 13170394 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

I am not saying to let go of the qb . Just the GM... Bring the coach back for all I care.. talent is the problem with this team.. not coaching..

I actually think it is the coaching at the moment. At some point you have to make it work with the guys you have. The Giants have talent...It's up to the coaches to get the performance to exceed the sum of the parts. It is not happening right now.

In comment 13170399 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

Maybe....not sure Ben has the temperament needed to be a QB in NY. Eli turned out to have the perfect temperament for NY. Maybe Ben would have been fine...but he was a small town, small school guy. With a reputation as a bit of a jerk. (I went to Miami and the word was he was a prick)

Well, Eli had Daddy and his brother. Olde Miss might not be a small school but it's not a real Metro area and Louisiana isn't at a highway pace either. Eli won so the temperament is perfect. Without the rings, IMO, many would feel the temperament is just the opposite. He has no sense of urgency like the city might be the theme.

In comment 13170404 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170394 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170380 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 13170359 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said: Quote: so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything. Everything has been changed other than GM and QB... Yes, when things go bad the entire coaching staff and scouting team, along with the GM and franchiser QB should be dumped. Perfect course of action when things go south. BBI Madden 2017. I am not saying to let go of the qb . Just the GM... Bring the coach back for all I care.. talent is the problem with this team.. not coaching.. anyone watching last year who doesnt think coaching was part of the problem is not paying attention

Agree.. but that was a one year thing.. when the Coach was put on notice and with more then 20M in cap available his GM didn't get him any LB, or competent OL.. and we had some of the worst DEs..

Talent has been an issue for 5 years running now.. and if you don't notice that then you have not been paying attention..

In comment 13170397 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Accorsi wasn't exactly going out on a limb, either, given that Eli was pretty much the consensus top pick anyway. Being willing to trade as much as he did took guts, but Eli wasn't some unknown quantity like Phil Simms in 1979.

Let's just look at Accorsi's last two drafts and FA periods with the Giants, 2004, and 2005. Just top picks and big money FA signings, since you believe he didn't have any input in late round picks, fine.

2004 Free Agency: Signs Shawn O'hara and Fred Robbins
2004 Draft: Eli Manning 1st round, Chris Snee 2nd round
2005 Free Agency: Plaxico Burress, Kareem McKenzie, Antonio Pierce
2005 Draft: 2nd round pick: Corey Webster, 3rd round pick Justin Tuck, 4th round pick Brandon Jacobs

Pretty solid.

In comment 13170387 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170375 Britt in VA said: Quote: In The problem is, Snee started the visible decline in 2009. We all saw it. Him and O'hara were getting pushed back into the pocket most of the 2009 season. The running game suffered. It was obvious. Agreed Britt IMO and in addition, 2011 was the last gasp out of that OL group. The 2012 draft was the killer. Back to back, or at least one OL in the first two rounds was a must. They didn't even bother drafting one the entire draft.

In hindsight I fully agree. But I don't put all the blame on JR for it. TC, as much as I respect him, had issues with retaining veterans(and coaches) past their prime. It was the major reason he was let go by the Jags. I don't doubt that he was certain the line could hold together a couple more years and advised JR the same.

I also think it was this loyalty was a factor why TC was let go and JR stayed.

In comment 13170410 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170404 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13170394 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170380 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 13170359 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170340 UConn4523 said: Quote: so that's all 100% on Accorsi? Not coaching, not players living up to their billing, not a little good luck? Good lord, atleast be reasonable. We are going through a dry spell for many reasons. Pointing a finger at 1 guys isn't going to solve anything. Everything has been changed other than GM and QB... Yes, when things go bad the entire coaching staff and scouting team, along with the GM and franchiser QB should be dumped. Perfect course of action when Agree.. but that was a one year thing.. when the Coach was put on notice and with more then 20M in cap available his GM didn't get him any LB, or competent OL.. and we had some of the worst DEs.. Talent has been an issue for 5 years running now.. and if you don't notice that then you have not been paying attention..

giants did not have 20 million to spend last year

I used to downplay people said losing Gettleman was a massive blow to their efforts in free agency, but I've come around on that.

How long is it supposed to take to rebuild an OLine? Because there are teams in our division who have done it already in the same time period; if not less.

But yeah, not the GM's fault. This place is great. Welcome to the NY Giants. The one team in all of pro sports where the GM has no power. Fucking idiots.

In comment 13170420 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

giants did not have 20 million to spend last year

My bad it was only $14,127,537 .. but look at our roster we needed help at Free Safety, all three LB, 2 DE, 2nd WR, TE, any OL help and a second competent DT.. a free safety or LB to stop those passes over the middle and we win 4 more games..

In comment 13170411 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13170397 Greg from LI said: Quote: Accorsi wasn't exactly going out on a limb, either, given that Eli was pretty much the consensus top pick anyway. Being willing to trade as much as he did took guts, but Eli wasn't some unknown quantity like Phil Simms in 1979. Let's just look at Accorsi's last two drafts and FA periods with the Giants, 2004, and 2005. Just top picks and big money FA signings, since you believe he didn't have any input in late round picks, fine. 2004 Free Agency: Signs Shawn O'hara and Fred Robbins 2004 Draft: Eli Manning 1st round, Chris Snee 2nd round 2005 Free Agency: Plaxico Burress, Kareem McKenzie, Antonio Pierce 2005 Draft: 2nd round pick: Corey Webster, 3rd round pick Justin Tuck, 4th round pick Brandon Jacobs Pretty solid.

He also signed in 2004
SLB Carlos Emmons (Signed from Eagles; 5-years, $16.5 million, $4.5 million SB)
WLB Barrett Green (Signed from Lions; 5-years, $13.25 million, $2.75 million SB)
OT/OG Barry Stokes (Signed from Browns; 5-years, $4.685 million salary, $1.25 million SB)
DT Martin Chase (Signed from Redskins; 2-years, $1.3 million, $160,000 SB)
CB Terry Cousin (Waived by Panthers; 3-years, $2.9 million, $900,000 SB)
DE Lorenzo Bromell (Signed from Raiders; 3-years, $3 million, $300,000 SB)


Not missing your point, but these were some of the more expensive FA that year. The salary cap was $80 million that year so double those salaries for 2016. EA missed quite a bit too.

It's not happening

Just take a look at 2015,you're looking at 1 fuckin player.

In comment 13170436 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170420 nygiants16 said: Quote: giants did not have 20 million to spend last year My bad it was only $14,127,537 .. but look at our roster we needed help at Free Safety, all three LB, 2 DE, 2nd WR, TE, any OL help and a second competent DT.. a free safety or LB to stop those passes over the middle and we win 4 more games..

do you forget that jpp had a cap hold on the team for 15 million

In comment 13170442 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170436 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170420 nygiants16 said: Quote: giants did not have 20 million to spend last year My bad it was only $14,127,537 .. but look at our roster we needed help at Free Safety, all three LB, 2 DE, 2nd WR, TE, any OL help and a second competent DT.. a free safety or LB to stop those passes over the middle and we win 4 more games.. do you forget that jpp had a cap hold on the team for 15 million

that was post the hold for JPP tag number.. thats why we were able to carry about $20M to this year..

Has had bad luck with a few guys but he hasn't figured out how to fix the trenches yet. He's spent two 1st's and a 2nd on the OL along with countless late rounders and a few FA's -- and the OL is no better than it was 5 years ago.

The DL is improved due to the FA acquisitions but the depth isn't there.

In comment 13170440 therealmf said:

Quote:

In comment 13170411 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170397 Greg from LI said: Quote: Accorsi wasn't exactly going out on a limb, either, given that Eli was pretty much the consensus top pick anyway. Being willing to trade as much as he did took guts, but Eli wasn't some unknown quantity like Phil Simms in 1979. Let's just look at Accorsi's last two drafts and FA periods with the Giants, 2004, and 2005. Just top picks and big money FA signings, since you believe he didn't have any input in late round picks, fine. 2004 Free Agency: Signs Shawn O'hara and Fred Robbins 2004 Draft: Eli Manning 1st round, Chris Snee 2nd round 2005 Free Agency: Plaxico Burress, Kareem McKenzie, Antonio Pierce 2005 Draft: 2nd round pick: Corey Webster, 3rd round pick Justin Tuck, 4th round pick Brandon Jacobs Pretty solid. He also signed in 2004 SLB Carlos Emmons (Signed from Eagles; 5-years, $16.5 million, $4.5 million SB) WLB Barrett Green (Signed from Lions; 5-years, $13.25 million, $2.75 million SB) OT/OG Barry Stokes (Signed from Browns; 5-years, $4.685 million salary, $1.25 million SB) DT Martin Chase (Signed from Redskins; 2-years, $1.3 million, $160,000 SB) CB Terry Cousin (Waived by Panthers; 3-years, $2.9 million, $900,000 SB) DE Lorenzo Bromell (Signed from Raiders; 3-years, $3 million, $300,000 SB) Not missing your point, but these were some of the more expensive FA that year. The salary cap was $80 million that year so double those salaries for 2016. EA missed quite a bit too.

EA did not hit on everything.. No one does.. But I will bet you he hit on enough to built the best OL in the league and some dominating DL.. I'll even agree that it wasn't all him but JR gets credit and also other that work under him.. JR may be a great Scouting director but he sucks as the GM..
you can't say look at OBJ, he is better than any draft pick by Ernie and claim that JR is better.. GM is responsible for the entire roster.. and as a whole our Roster has been in the bottom half for about half a decade..

picks. I won't say he's done well, but almost anyone would have been hard-pressed to do well under the circumstances.

In comment 13170459 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

picks. I won't say he's done well, but almost anyone would have been hard-pressed to do well under the circumstances.

My biggest knock on him are the lines.

Because that's where I believe football is won and lost.

It's no coincidence, IMO, that when our O-line tanked, our team tanked. And that's where they've been ever since.

In comment 13170459 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

picks. I won't say he's done well, but almost anyone would have been hard-pressed to do well under the circumstances.

other teams also have bad luck.. the thing is he hardly ever hits on any pick after the second round.. and when you never hit on one for almost a decade.. it takes a toll on your depth.. we saw it with special teams.. then he had to overpay for special teamers..

and he barely ever hits on Free Agency.. if GM's job was to draft just 2 rounds and never sign a FA.. I'll take JR over almost everyone in the league.. but first 2 rounds are 10% of his job..

they won in 11 because of their skill positions..

i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit

In comment 13170472 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170459 Greg from LI said: Quote: picks. I won't say he's done well, but almost anyone would have been hard-pressed to do well under the circumstances. other teams also have bad luck.. the thing is he hardly ever hits on any pick after the second round.. and when you never hit on one for almost a decade.. it takes a toll on your depth.. we saw it with special teams.. then he had to overpay for special teamers.. and he barely ever hits on Free Agency.. if GM's job was to draft just 2 rounds and never sign a FA.. I'll take JR over almost everyone in the league.. but first 2 rounds are 10% of his job..

you can not say he has never hit on free agency that is a bold faced lie...

In comment 13170474 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

they won in 11 because of their skill positions.. i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit

That is not a sustainable model. We also needed 7 fourth quarter comebacks, and Eli Manning broke the record for 14th quarter TD's, and we were only 9-7.

In comment 13170477 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13170474 nygiants16 said: Quote: they won in 11 because of their skill positions.. i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit That is not a sustainable model. We also needed 7 fourth quarter comebacks, and Eli Manning broke the record for 14th quarter TD's, and we were only 9-7.

i agree with you, i am just saying coming off a superbowl he thought that he had time to start infusing talent into the line and he was wrong

In comment 13170475 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170472 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170459 Greg from LI said: Quote: picks. I won't say he's done well, but almost anyone would have been hard-pressed to do well under the circumstances. other teams also have bad luck.. the thing is he hardly ever hits on any pick after the second round.. and when you never hit on one for almost a decade.. it takes a toll on your depth.. we saw it with special teams.. then he had to overpay for special teamers.. and he barely ever hits on Free Agency.. if GM's job was to draft just 2 rounds and never sign a FA.. I'll take JR over almost everyone in the league.. but first 2 rounds are 10% of his job.. you can not say he has never hit on free agency that is a bold faced lie...

I didn't say that.. I said he barely ever hits on free agency.. no matter the wording.. we can all agree that he doesn't hit on FA enough.. thats why we have such huge talent holes on this team..

In comment 13170458 chuckydee9 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170440 therealmf said: Quote: In comment 13170411 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170397 Greg from LI said: Quote: Accorsi wasn't exactly going out on a limb, either, given that Eli was pretty much the consensus top pick anyway. Being willing to trade as much as he did took guts, but Eli wasn't some unknown quantity like Phil Simms in 1979. Let's just look at Accorsi's last two drafts and FA periods with the Giants, 2004, and 2005. Just top picks and big money FA signings, since you believe he didn't have any input in late round picks, fine. 2004 Free Agency: Signs Shawn O'hara and Fred Robbins 2004 Draft: Eli Manning 1st round, Chris Snee 2nd round 2005 Free Agency: Plaxico Burress, Kareem McKenzie, Antonio Pierce 2005 Draft: 2nd round pick: Corey Webster, 3rd round pick Justin Tuck, 4th round pick Brandon Jacobs Pretty solid. He also signed in 2004 SLB Carlos Emmons (Signed from Eagles; 5-years, $16.5 million, $4.5 million SB) WLB Barrett Green (Signed from Lions; 5-years, $13.25 million, $2.75 million SB) OT/OG Barry Stokes (Signed from Browns; 5-years, $4.685 million salary, $1.25 million SB) DT Martin Chase (Signed from Redskins; 2-years, $1.3 million, $160,000 SB) CB Terry Cousin (Waived by Panthers; 3-years, $2.9 million, $900,000 SB) DE Lorenzo Bromell (Signed from Raiders; 3-years, $3 million, $300,000 SB) Not missing your point, but these were some of the more expensive FA that year. The salary cap was $80 million that year so double those salaries for 2016. EA missed quite a bit too. EA did not hit on everything.. No one does.. But I will bet you he hit on enough to built the best OL in the league and some dominating DL.. I'll even agree that it wasn't all him but JR gets credit and also other that work under him.. JR may be a great Scouting director but he sucks as the GM.. you can't say look at OBJ, he is better than any draft pick by Ernie and claim that JR is better.. GM is responsible for the entire roster.. and as a whole our Roster has been in the bottom half for about half a decade..

Agreed. But my point was that EA made some bad choices too.

As to the roster, any roster will be screwed when the team leads the league in injuries the last 3-4 years. To a certain extent JR is replacing roster positions due to injury. And with the cap issues over that time you are forced to replace a quality backup with JAGs or injured vets that sign for less. As well as not signing your own FA, like Linval Joseph. This has to diminish any teams depth.

The Giants have the worst TEs in the NFL two years running, and bottom 3 to bottom 10 of RBs, OL and LBs.

Last year, the Giants defense arguably had the least talented defense in NFL history as compared to other teams during the same year. Because of that clear failure, we had to greatly overpay to provide the team with at least an NFL level defense and had our HoF coach fired.

Additionally, in the TC final press conference, he came off terribly.

Other than the above, I agree he is "good".

In comment 13170483 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13170477 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170474 nygiants16 said: Quote: they won in 11 because of their skill positions.. i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit That is not a sustainable model. We also needed 7 fourth quarter comebacks, and Eli Manning broke the record for 14th quarter TD's, and we were only 9-7. i agree with you, i am just saying coming off a superbowl he thought that he had time to start infusing talent into the line and he was wrong

That's on Reese, because the line was showing serious decline as early as 2009, two years prior to the Superbowl, and he never showed the foresight to address it.

If we don't make the playoffs and have another double digit losing season then it is really time the Giants make a change at the GM position. Reese drafted well in 2007 with players that helped win us a Super Bowl but of course, the core of the team was from Accorsi. 2011 was great with the result(which of course,all that counts)but we can't lose sight that we got into the playoffs with a 9-7 record and that was with winning the last two games. That team really was mediocre but thankfully got hot at the right time. After the Giants let Coughlin go I wanted a complete overhaul of the organization but as usual, the Giants opted for continuity. So let's see how the season plays out but IMO, the Giants owners will do nothing even with another awful season.

is, in the context of how certain of Reese's better picks were hard
hit by injuries, the inclusion of Hakeem in that category.

My recollection is that he was still relatively healthy at the time of the
FA signing period (2013, 2014?) when both Cruz and Nicks were FAs or FA to be. The Giants made the move to re-sign Cruz and the widespread belief was that in doing so they were giving Nicks his walking papers because the cap wouldn't permit signing him at the price or in the range his agent was expected to demand. So he left and it was after that time that he became a shell of himself. Is that the right sequence? If so, then the Reese defenders can't use him as an example of how Reese's great record was significantly undone by the injury bug.

The Giants have never really been dominant for any decent stretch during the Reese era. There were two improbable Super Bowl runs along with a few brief stretches during the season where they went on runs, but this hasn't been a dominant team since he took over. The talent has been thin and getting worse during his tenure. It seems as if the FO is ok with the results as long as its done their way. The team is torn apart with injuries because their is a lack of quality depth.

I appreciate and value continuity, but sometimes you have go out on a limb or take a few chances. Giants FO are so stuck on doing things their way. Reese patching up the OLine and LB's with second and third stringers is just not working. The use of the resources has not been effective and it shows with the product we see each week.

OBJ and Apple are great. Not complaining. It does seem however, the Giants do not have a knack for building up their talent - whether its late picks or cap money distributed among the positions.

In comment 13170360 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13170354 jcn56 said: Quote: as much as Tom Coughlin fans. No kidding. There are quite a few here who I'm convinced fondle themselves when they see a picture of ol' TC. Probably the toupee, too.

Great analysis as always. You've got a good shtick; if you are wrong, insult. You assured everyone that Killbride and Fewell had to go and that would fix everything. Wrong.You assured everyone last year that the Giants were.a playoff team ruined by a senile old man. Wrong. You assured everyone that Coughlin had to go and that would fix everything. Wrong. Anyone questioning the personnel is labeled "Coughlin lover". Let us all label you what you are: blowhard. An occasionally entertaining one, but a blowhard nevertheless.

In comment 13170492 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 13170483 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13170477 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170474 nygiants16 said: Quote: they won in 11 because of their skill positions.. i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit That is not a sustainable model. We also needed 7 fourth quarter comebacks, and Eli Manning broke the record for 14th quarter TD's, and we were only 9-7. i agree with you, i am just saying coming off a superbowl he thought that he had time to start infusing talent into the line and he was wrong That's on Reese, because the line was showing serious decline as early as 2009, two years prior to the Superbowl, and he never showed the foresight to address it.

Really one year after the were a top OL the next they were in decline? In 2008 Snee (6 yrs), Suebert (5 yrs) and Diehl (6 yrs) signed new multi year contracts. O'Hara was signed thru 2011. Except for hindsight what do you base this serious 2009 decline? And with the players in contract what would you have him do?

we know where you stand and that's on the other side of those thinking TC was part of the problem. Can you really posit that he wasn't during this ever longer stretch of mediocre football? Management's mistake was in not canning both of them, together. If and to the extent TC had a meaningful say in draft selection of personnel and personnel on the field, then he bears proportional responsibility. There's little question he bears responsibility for game tactical decisions and game management decisions, esp. 2015.

And in using the word blowhard, I think JR often steps into that description, quite comfortably, his post-draft pressers, his season-ending presser (an embarrassment) and his normal updates with the press.

and really from a talent standpoint '81-'93.

LT and playoffs in '81, disappointment with the strike in '82 (with the famous "squib" against the Redskins) and then the mess of '83, then ascendancy and dominance from '84-'90, 2 wasted years with George Young hand picking Ray Handley to fuck up a talented team, then finishing with Reeves restoring order in 1993 for one last fling before turning the Giants into an Elway-less version of the Broncos.

'56-'63 has to be considered great as well, with 6 Title Game appearances and 1 Championship.

will move

I just wonder if Reese got jumped on taking the OT that I believe Jacksonville beat us to (Conklin?)

I think Reese had an eye on completing the OL, and had to settle for Apple (not a bad settle).

I never thought this team was ready to really compete for a deep playoff run in 2016, my thinking was they are still a year and draft away.

In comment 13170528 therealmf said:

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In comment 13170492 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170483 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 13170477 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13170474 nygiants16 said: Quote: they won in 11 because of their skill positions.. i think reese thought he could buy some time with the wrs they had and still be competitive and then injuries hit That is not a sustainable model. We also needed 7 fourth quarter comebacks, and Eli Manning broke the record for 14th quarter TD's, and we were only 9-7. i agree with you, i am just saying coming off a superbowl he thought that he had time to start infusing talent into the line and he was wrong That's on Reese, because the line was showing serious decline as early as 2009, two years prior to the Superbowl, and he never showed the foresight to address it. Really one year after the were a top OL the next they were in decline? In 2008 Snee (6 yrs), Suebert (5 yrs) and Diehl (6 yrs) signed new multi year contracts. O'Hara was signed thru 2011. Except for hindsight what do you base this serious 2009 decline? And with the players in contract what would you have him do?

There were tons of discussions on BBI in 2009 about the physical decline of a few players, namely O'hara and Snee, who were getting pushed around in the middle of the line.

the best offensive player (Eli) and defensive player) was not drafted with Reese as a GM. So throw they SB argument out the window, as well as the records in those early winning seasons, especially 2008.

That leaves Reese with a losing record and no SBs. Still love him?

And btw this is not and argument but rather a statement of your opinion without a defense. A lousy rhetorical device.

"But if you do not see the trend of a better defense, better drafting and an offense which has been one of the leagues best. I don't know what to say.

...

How droll.

Point me to where I said anything would "fix everything", and I'll gladly own up to it. Happy hunting!

In comment 13170563 Britt in VA said:

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Really one year after the were a top OL the next they were in decline? In 2008 Snee (6 yrs), Suebert (5 yrs) and Diehl (6 yrs) signed new multi year contracts. O'Hara was signed thru 2011. Except for hindsight what do you base this serious 2009 decline? And with the players in contract what would you have him do? There were tons of discussions on BBI in 2009 about the physical decline of a few players, namely O'hara and Snee, who were getting pushed around in the middle of the line.

Forgive my late entry into BBI.

What was the consensus decision? Cut them or think next year they'd rebound?

Do you think TC had some input?

should have surely seen it, and had the foresight to begin rebuilding the O-line, instead of running it completely into the ground before trying to rebuild it. That's really not a good transition, do you think?

As for Coughlin having input? What do I know. I know it's widely speculated/reasoned on here that when things were bad, it was because Coughlin's input, and when things were good it was Reese's input depending on who you talk to.

But if Coughlin was making the personel decisions in regards to the line, which many here will tell you he was, then Reese's excuse is "I didn't do anything because he told me not to?" Now there is no Coughlin. What will the next excuse be?

In comment 13170280 drkenneth said:

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In comment 13170246 The_Boss said: Quote: April Fools Day isn't for another 6 months. What are you going to do when Reese is gone? You'll have to find another shtick.

We'll cross that bridge when we get there, Chief.

.

of being extremely loyal to his staff, you don't think he extended the same loyalty to veterans that have been in the foxhole with him? My suspicions are that there were internal disagreements about personnel, and Coughlin went to bat for the Diehl's, O'Hara's, and Snees.

In comment 13170764 David in LA said:

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of being extremely loyal to his staff, you don't think he extended the same loyalty to veterans that have been in the foxhole with him? My suspicions are that there were internal disagreements about personnel, and Coughlin went to bat for the Diehl's, O'Hara's, and Snees.

yeah I am sure TC kept guys he shouldn't have. His comments on the way out also imply that Jerry should have been walking out with him.

In comment 13170749 Sean said:

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.

I dislike Acorsi. That being said, I would rather have him right now vs Reese. It is like choosing between being up to your neck in shit or puke.

In comment 13170764 David in LA said:

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of being extremely loyal to his staff, you don't think he extended the same loyalty to veterans that have been in the foxhole with him? My suspicions are that there were internal disagreements about personnel, and Coughlin went to bat for the Diehl's, O'Hara's, and Snees.

I actually think thats how it should be.. you stay loyal to your people that deliver..thats how you get your current players to play hard.. but that means a couple of bad years.. not half a decade.. JR hasn't had a good OL draft pick or FA.. nothing like O'Hara or Snee .. these guys were the best at their position..

In comment 13170806 EricJ said:

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In comment 13170749 Sean said: Quote: . I dislike Acorsi. That being said, I would rather have him right now vs Reese. It is like choosing between being up to your neck in shit or puke.

EA's drafts have been a mixed bag, but have improved since Reese was promoted to Director of Scouting. Odd that Reese gets no credit for those drafts. This has devolved into yet another Reese or Coughlin thread.

I think it's management as a collective.

They've been reactive instead of proactive, putting out fires in an attempt to maximize Eli's remaining years. They've played musical coordinators in reaction to bad seasons on a particular side of the ball since 2009, and personnel moves have been made with an emphasis on plugging holes rather than creating an identity.

Reese has a lot of blame but he isn't alone there.

In comment 13170812 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 13170764 David in LA said: Quote: of being extremely loyal to his staff, you don't think he extended the same loyalty to veterans that have been in the foxhole with him? My suspicions are that there were internal disagreements about personnel, and Coughlin went to bat for the Diehl's, O'Hara's, and Snees. I actually think thats how it should be.. you stay loyal to your people that deliver..thats how you get your current players to play hard.. but that means a couple of bad years.. not half a decade.. JR hasn't had a good OL draft pick or FA.. nothing like O'Hara or Snee .. these guys were the best at their position..

How do you develop any young prospects when they can't get live snaps over the stalwarts, especially when it's clear as day that those players have declined. My suspicions are that Coughlin carried a bigger stick in the war room after SB #2, and the team gambled that we could still compete, and that gamble ended up backfiring.

In comment 13170818 David in LA said:

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EA's drafts have been a mixed bag, but have improved since Reese was promoted to Director of Scouting. Odd that Reese gets no credit for those drafts. This has devolved into yet another Reese or Coughlin thread.

I thought Acorsi turned the Giants into a soft (AFC style) team.

to post a fucking picture.

In comment 13170820 David in LA said:

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In comment 13170812 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13170764 David in LA said: Quote: of being extremely loyal to his staff, you don't think he extended the same loyalty to veterans that have been in the foxhole with him? My suspicions are that there were internal disagreements about personnel, and Coughlin went to bat for the Diehl's, O'Hara's, and Snees. I actually think thats how it should be.. you stay loyal to your people that deliver..thats how you get your current players to play hard.. but that means a couple of bad years.. not half a decade.. JR hasn't had a good OL draft pick or FA.. nothing like O'Hara or Snee .. these guys were the best at their position.. How do you develop any young prospects when they can't get live snaps over the stalwarts, especially when it's clear as day that those players have declined. My suspicions are that Coughlin carried a bigger stick in the war room after SB #2, and the team gambled that we could still compete, and that gamble ended up backfiring.

Yeah that excuse would work in 2013 and 2014.. its 2016 now.. TC played Pugh, Flowers and Richburg.. guess what they ain't as good as Snee, O'hara and those guys..

aren't as good as O'Hara, and Snee in their primes. However, O'Hara and Snee during their last years here were completely shot. We lost years, because we refused to supplant those guys, and tried to patch it up with the likes of Baas, Walton, and Schwartz.

Pugh, and Richburg were good investments. You do realize that OL takes a bit of time to develop, especially when you are going from one position coach to another with a young OL, right?

He had no real vision on how to plan this team's future. He neglected the Oline and Dline and fell in love with wide receivers. He missed on the draft for 3 years after the 2011 SB. This is why we are behind the other teams in our division in terms of talent. He needs to go.

In comment 13170863 David in LA said:

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aren't as good as O'Hara, and Snee in their primes. However, O'Hara and Snee during their last years here were completely shot. We lost years, because we refused to supplant those guys, and tried to patch it up with the likes of Baas, Walton, and Schwartz. Pugh, and Richburg were good investments. You do realize that OL takes a bit of time to develop, especially when you are going from one position coach to another with a young OL, right?

Well you said it was TC's fault for holding onto the old stalwarts for too long.. I said fine and I like that trait.. it gets your current players to fight for you.. but don't blame that suckkage of this weekend's blocking on TC.. its JR's fault.. Pugh has finally started to play well.. But its only 5 games after 2 pretty bad seasons.. Richburg who looked solid last year, had really digressed and flowers is better at pushing reporters than DE's.. and thats on JR .. not on TC.. time to fault TC for bad OL has gone.. it was a valid excuse in 2014 not 2016..

In comment 13170965 chuckydee9 said:

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Well you said it was TC's fault for holding onto the old stalwarts for too long.. I said fine and I like that trait.. it gets your current players to fight for you.. but don't blame that suckkage of this weekend's blocking on TC.. its JR's fault.. Pugh has finally started to play well.. But its only 5 games after 2 pretty bad seasons.. Richburg who looked solid last year, had really digressed and flowers is better at pushing reporters than DE's.. and thats on JR .. not on TC.. time to fault TC for bad OL has gone.. it was a valid excuse in 2014 not 2016..

And that doesn't include how we have practice squad level players starting at the other 2 spots in the OL.. The excuse that this OL is bad because of TC has passed.. its bad on 10/12/2016 because of the talent brought in by yours truly JR..

In comment 13170173 drkenneth said:

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In comment 13170170 George from PA said: Quote: But he has a blind spot or ego that is unacceptable. He refuses to pivot when needed. What is this based on exactly? This sounds like something BBI makes up. I'm sure it's the "We have no dominant linebackers!" stuff. There are no complete teams in the NFL. Every team has holes.

but not every team still plays like crap after spending over 200 million on getting more talent...

.

On the college level, he's not adept at building a team because he lacks a core philosophy and tries to mimic whoever just won the Super Bowl. It's not working and his time is up.

"he's not adept at building a team because he lacks a core philosophy".

News to me

his strategy has been to lean into drafting high and signing wide receivers, cornerbacks, defensive ends pass rushers and offensive tackles while willing to compromise and/or not doing a great job ensuring we had sufficient talent at linebackers, tight ends and the interior of the offensive line.

he's had some bad injury luck with first round picks who proved they could play in Phillips, prince, nicks, JPP and Wilson who could have been long term staples of this team. he's also been slow to adapt/recognize when veterans need to be cut and replaced especially in the trenches.

he has been pretty good in the first two rounds of the draft, bringing in the aforementioned guys along with richburg, pugh, and collins but bets later on have not panned out.
free agent signing success has been a mixed bag, with Schwartz being the biggest disappointment (as well as letting joseph walk). Jenkins looks great, DRC and Jennings have been good when healthy, Vernon not so much yet.

overall i would say he has been average.
the flowers pick may end up making or breaking his legacy as he was drafted high with the vision of protecting the QB for the next 10 years.

but Giants have the fewest sacks in the entire league with just 4.

In comment 13173244 Joey in VA said:

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On the college level, he's not adept at building a team because he lacks a core philosophy and tries to mimic whoever just won the Super Bowl. It's not working and his time is up.

This is interesting - but this is where I thought the coaching staff came in.

I figured GM - long term, talent evaluation and acquisition, and resource management (cap, roster). Coach - develops the team identity, offensive and defensive gameplans, and is responsible for executing them.

Doesn't it go a bit too far if the GM is putting forward the identity for the team? At that point, if the coach isn't entirely onboard with the GM, aren't all your eggs in one basket hoping the guy who picks the talent also has a good vision of what type of football they should be playing?

and the team still exhibits the same exact mental mistakes it has the previous 4 seasons. Joey is right.

In comment 13170354 jcn56 said:

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as much as Tom Coughlin fans. Both guys are hard to evaluate if for one simple reason - Eli Manning. Both tenures coincided with a franchise QB caliber starter who didn't miss a game. It's like Brady and Belichick - I'm a huge fan of Big Bill, and for small stretches, he's been pretty good without Brady (and working on a contingency QB, not something he planned for). When Brady walks out of that building is when we find out what Belichick is really made of. And it looks like we might be doing the same with Reese right now.

Old excuse. The fact of the matter is that you and some fellow travelers were certain this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man. There were those who pointed out that the personnel the last few years was lacking, but no, you all insisted the coach had to go and all would be well just like you did with Gilbride and Fewell and those point to the lack of talent were Coughlin lovers.

About the only consistent thing anyone can mention about your crew is that they are consistently wrong-headed and belligerent about it.

Britt, nice work.

In comment 13170819 Go Terps said:

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I think it's management as a collective. They've been reactive instead of proactive, putting out fires in an attempt to maximize Eli's remaining years. They've played musical coordinators in reaction to bad seasons on a particular side of the ball since 2009, and personnel moves have been made with an emphasis on plugging holes rather than creating an identity. Reese has a lot of blame but he isn't alone there.

It may not be a coincidence that the situation started getting worse after 2011 which is when meddling started from the owners' suite.

In comment 13173288 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 13170819 Go Terps said: Quote: I think it's management as a collective. They've been reactive instead of proactive, putting out fires in an attempt to maximize Eli's remaining years. They've played musical coordinators in reaction to bad seasons on a particular side of the ball since 2009, and personnel moves have been made with an emphasis on plugging holes rather than creating an identity. Reese has a lot of blame but he isn't alone there. It may not be a coincidence that the situation started getting worse after 2011 which is when meddling started from the owners' suite.

+1

I have long felt much of the problems of the recent years fall squarely at the Mara's feet.

A good GM would understand that the first thing you build on a football team is your offensive line. You can't just plug in anybody who weighs 300 lbs and think it will be okay. He doesn't seem to understand that. His refusal to move Flowers to RT when it is apparent to the world that he can't play LT is beyond maddening. It's just flat out pride and arrogance and it's killing the team. Anybody not think that this line would be much better with either Okung, Clady, Penn or Monroe at LT and Flowers at RT where he could use his natural power and not have the pressure of handling these speed rushers every week? A good GM would understand that fixing the line would fix a lot of this teams problems. Until he wakes up and does that, Reese is not a good GM.

who is pretty good judge of talent had Andrus Peat rated higher than Flowers.What position is Peat playing now?