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2 pass plays the giants have abandoned over the years...

OBJ_AllDay : 10/14/2016 10:15 am
the quick screen to the wide receiver - which I think would work just fine with a shifty wr like beckham. Get him the ball and let him do what he can with it. The giants used this play a lot previously with both Nicks and Manningham with a lot of success.

The backshoulder throw the Giants always used with Hakeem Nicks along the sideline or in the redzone.

Its time for McAdoo to try some new wrinkles here since it appears the two deep safety look causes his entire gameplan to fold on itself.
So you want back shoulder  
dep026 : 10/14/2016 10:19 am : link
throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?
WR screens  
giants#1 : 10/14/2016 10:20 am : link
they used them last year with Beckham/Harris, though I do agree they could benefit from more. Though the D is usually up on Beckham since they're doubling him.

Back shoulder throws aren't really a "play". It's an adjustment the QB-WR make based on the CBs positioning.
umm  
Gordo : 10/14/2016 10:20 am : link
we changed offenses 3 years ago... that bubble screen was a hallmark of the gilbride offense..honestly i always thought it was a low percentage play. The only time i remember seeing it work was in 2009 when Nicks took to the house against KC.

i'm sure there are plays to get the ball into OBJs hands, i'm also guessing that they don't want him taking unnecessary hits if they can avoid it.
The back shoulder throw..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2016 10:20 am : link
might be one of the worst plays to try and run against the Cover 2, unless you can get the safeties to bite on seam routes and/or the slot guy.
RE: The back shoulder throw..  
giants#1 : 10/14/2016 10:22 am : link
In comment 13172747 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
might be one of the worst plays to try and run against the Cover 2, unless you can get the safeties to bite on seam routes and/or the slot guy.


It's also a pretty shitty idea with a WR like Beckham who is often 1-2 steps beyond the CB to begin with. So a back shoulder throw will be right into the CB....
Eli threw a backshoulder  
I Love Clams Casino : 10/14/2016 10:25 am : link
to Cruz in the GB game, and Cruz didn't get home
I'd like to see trips formation  
sjnyfan : 10/14/2016 10:25 am : link
Perfect Cover 2 buster especially with the talent of Beckham, Cruz and Shepherd bunched together.
RE: So you want back shoulder  
OBJ_AllDay : 10/14/2016 10:36 am : link
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:
Quote:
throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?


in the redzone it would work often with beckham easily. everyone thinking fade, back shoulder throw instead, cant defend it....
Backshoulder throws..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2016 10:37 am : link
are useless in the red zone since they only work when the CB keeps going deep.

But hey, keep trying.
RE: RE: So you want back shoulder  
dep026 : 10/14/2016 10:37 am : link
In comment 13172774 OBJ_AllDay said:
Quote:
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:


Quote:


throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?



in the redzone it would work often with beckham easily. everyone thinking fade, back shoulder throw instead, cant defend it....


Except the CB is still squatting on it. We tried a back shoulder throw in the end zone to Donnell. It him in a bad spot.
RE: RE: The back shoulder throw..  
PatersonPlank : 10/14/2016 10:39 am : link
In comment 13172749 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13172747 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


might be one of the worst plays to try and run against the Cover 2, unless you can get the safeties to bite on seam routes and/or the slot guy.



It's also a pretty shitty idea with a WR like Beckham who is often 1-2 steps beyond the CB to begin with. So a back shoulder throw will be right into the CB....


Against a cover 2, a back shoulder pass turns into a front shoulder interception.
RE: RE: So you want back shoulder  
giants#1 : 10/14/2016 10:40 am : link
In comment 13172774 OBJ_AllDay said:
Quote:
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:


Quote:


throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?



in the redzone it would work often with beckham easily. everyone thinking fade, back shoulder throw instead, cant defend it....


Except Beckham's doubled nearly every play, especially in the red zone. Back shoulder throws don't work in double coverage.
The back shoulder throw to Burress  
Giants2012 : 10/14/2016 10:48 am : link
was the best IMO. How many 2 step drops with a quick toss to Burress was an easy 8 yards on 1st down? Was hoping Barden was able to do that.
RE: So you want back shoulder  
Tuckrule : 10/14/2016 10:54 am : link
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:
Quote:
throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?


you act as if the only defense we face is cover 2. Time and place for everything. The WR screen is something that is missing and every single team runs it
the bubble screen that the WHOLE BUILDING knew was coming?  
Victor in CT : 10/14/2016 10:55 am : link
When you saw Manningham come on the field (and Sinorice Moss before him) you could bank on it.

Giants2012, that play worked because Burress was a physical freak of nature. 6' 5" with that enormous wingspan, it was easy pickings for him. Beckham has the hands but not the body type for that play
But this isn't true..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2016 10:58 am : link
Quote:
The WR screen is something that is missing and every single team runs it


We do run it occasionally. We ran one this past weekend even.
RE: RE: So you want back shoulder  
dep026 : 10/14/2016 11:01 am : link
In comment 13172808 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:


Quote:


throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?



you act as if the only defense we face is cover 2. Time and place for everything. The WR screen is something that is missing and every single team runs it


So you want to throw the backshoulder in the few plays where it hasnt been cover 2? Man, defenses will never figure that out.

And again. OBJ has been doubled or bracketed nearly every play this year. You cannot run it with type of coverage.
RE: the bubble screen that the WHOLE BUILDING knew was coming?  
Giants2012 : 10/14/2016 11:19 am : link
In comment 13172811 Victor in CT said:
Quote:


Giants2012, that play worked because Burress was a physical freak of nature. 6' 5" with that enormous wingspan, it was easy pickings for him. Beckham has the hands but not the body type for that play


Agreed, that why I mentioned Barden. I was hoping he could have done the same. I don't see it working with this group. They need a Kelvin Benjamin for that play IMO.
I miss Eli  
Larry in Pencilvania : 10/14/2016 11:26 am : link
Having his receiver run to the fire hydrant then cut in. It worked awesome when I was 8
I'd think that the WR screen would work better  
Deej : 10/14/2016 11:31 am : link
when the other WRs are big and capable of blocking off their assigned DBs. Whereas we now have a pretty small WR threesome.
The Lack of a Tight End  
Bernie : 10/14/2016 11:35 am : link
has killed the Giants the last 2 weeks. Middle of the field is wide open. If you noticed, OBJ's early catches last week were crossing routes against cover 2. Once GB took those away, OBJ tried going deep which provided lots of space in the middle as GB was doubling OBJ. Unfortunately Cruz can't beat anyone off the line and Tye is not a very good receiver. Sheppard was working the sideline.

These were my observations from being in the stadium and not watching on TV.
WR screens work  
Emil : 10/14/2016 12:02 pm : link
well against Cover 3 and 4, not so great against Cover 2
RE: RE: RE: So you want back shoulder  
Tuckrule : 10/14/2016 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13172822 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13172808 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 13172742 dep026 said:


Quote:


throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?



you act as if the only defense we face is cover 2. Time and place for everything. The WR screen is something that is missing and every single team runs it



So you want to throw the backshoulder in the few plays where it hasnt been cover 2? Man, defenses will never figure that out.

And again. OBJ has been doubled or bracketed nearly every play this year. You cannot run it with type of coverage.


Lmao where the heck did I say yea let's throw it every time the defense isn't in a cover 2. Man, some funny people here. And btw a wr screen against cover 2 does work with proper blocking by the wr. We cannot say "okay ther erunning cover 2 let's throw out half our playbook." All of you act like Gil brides offense was stale and don't work and now your missing it. Hysterical
I think that they are making a big mistake  
NikkiMac : 10/14/2016 12:48 pm : link
underutilizing D Harris.

Last year he was more involved .Imo he brings a lacking physicality and tough guy to the offense, they have Rainey if need be for specials

Send Harris over the middle a few times he's a tough kid and maybe fire up that offense and I believe he can be a Bavaro type leader.

It's worth a shot !
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2016 12:58 pm : link
Quote:
Send Harris over the middle a few times he's a tough kid and maybe fire up that offense and I believe he can be a Bavaro type leader.


If the team needs to see a guy knocked silly to get fired up, I don't know what to say.

"Hey look, Harris just got concussed. Let's charge up that hill, men!!!"
4-wide  
Eman11 : 10/14/2016 12:58 pm : link
With either a bunched 3 on one side with OBJ single on the other, or two on each side with Cruz and Shepard inside, Odell and King outside, might just give D's some trouble.

At least change it up a bit instead of the same 11 offense they run almost every play. I know they love the 3 WR look and it was their best O and quite effective for a while but it's not getting in the end zone now and kind of predictable,IMO.
RE: Huh??  
NikkiMac : 10/14/2016 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13172994 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Send Harris over the middle a few times he's a tough kid and maybe fire up that offense and I believe he can be a Bavaro type leader. Ok Fat Man let's forget about the hitting part and all your theatrics ,
when the guy is healthy I think it would be good strategy to get him more involved what do you think ?



If the team needs to see a guy knocked silly to get fired up, I don't know what to say.

"Hey look, Harris just got concussed. Let's charge up that hill, men!!!"
RE: Huh??  
NikkiMac : 10/14/2016 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13172994 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Send Harris over the middle a few times he's a tough kid and maybe fire up that offense and I believe he can be a Bavaro type leader. Ok Fat Man let's forget about the hitting part and all your theatrics ,
when the guy is healthy I think it would be good strategy to get him more involved what do you think ?



If the team needs to see a guy knocked silly to get fired up, I don't know what to say.

"Hey look, Harris just got concussed. Let's charge up that hill, men!!!"
Ok fat man  
NikkiMac : 10/14/2016 1:09 pm : link
let's forget about the hitting part and all your theatrics ,
when the guy is healthy I think it would be good strategy to get him more involved what do you think ?



RE: I'd think that the WR screen would work better  
JFIB : 10/14/2016 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13172881 Deej said:
Quote:
when the other WRs are big and capable of blocking off their assigned DBs. Whereas we now have a pretty small WR threesome.


This +1

All of our WR's have shown to be less than capable blockers in both the pass and the running game.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2016 1:18 pm : link
Quote:
Ok fat man
NikkiMac : 1:09 pm : link : reply
let's forget about the hitting part and all your theatrics ,
when the guy is healthy I think it would be good strategy to get him more involved what do you think ?


He's a great insurance policy if somebody gets hurt but his value is as a returner. If he's playing, one of the other WR's aren't.

But hey, have him go over the middle and show his toughness. Maybe he can rip his jersey off and pound his chest too. A little Braveheart action!
RE: RE: RE: RE: So you want back shoulder  
dep026 : 10/14/2016 1:21 pm : link
In comment 13172971 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 13172822 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 13172808 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 13172742 dep026 said:


Quote:


throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?



you act as if the only defense we face is cover 2. Time and place for everything. The WR screen is something that is missing and every single team runs it



So you want to throw the backshoulder in the few plays where it hasnt been cover 2? Man, defenses will never figure that out.

And again. OBJ has been doubled or bracketed nearly every play this year. You cannot run it with type of coverage.



Lmao where the heck did I say yea let's throw it every time the defense isn't in a cover 2. Man, some funny people here. And btw a wr screen against cover 2 does work with proper blocking by the wr. We cannot say "okay ther erunning cover 2 let's throw out half our playbook." All of you act like Gil brides offense was stale and don't work and now your missing it. Hysterical


Who is talking about a WR screen. We are talking about back shoulder throws against a cover 2. Try to keep up already.
If you can threaten the corner shallow  
Andy in Halifax : 10/14/2016 1:23 pm : link
and keep him engaged in the flat, there is an opportunity for a back shoulder throw. It's risky and the YAC opportunity is limited, which makes it a less than ideal option. Understatement.

However, if you can send three vertical routes against the C2 and force the FS to triangulate, a deep fade can be effective and mistaken for a "back shoulder" throw. Maybe that's what you mean?
I miss  
shelovesnycsports : 10/14/2016 1:41 pm : link
The flea flicker.
I thought the fake end-around to OBJ  
SHO'NUFF : 10/14/2016 1:43 pm : link
into a screen pass was pretty damn creative.
RE: So you want back shoulder  
EricJ : 10/14/2016 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13172742 dep026 said:
Quote:
throws into cover 2 where the corner is squatting on a route? Huh?


Agree and goes to my point after the last loss. The packers were playing "quarters" out there. Basically taking away the shallow and deep to the outside of the field. We were running our routes INTO those areas vs over the middle. Basically, making it easier for them to defend us.

It actually looked like someone on our side of the ball (Ben, Eli or someone) was being paid by GB to throw the game.
i  
Les in TO : 10/14/2016 2:43 pm : link
would like to see the giants come out in no huddle on sunday - go up tempo, script the first 10-15 plays, dictate the terms rather than read and react.

more play action passes too to open up the intermediate passing game.
RE: i  
Victor in CT : 10/14/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13173144 Les in TO said:
Quote:
would like to see the giants come out in no huddle on sunday - go up tempo, script the first 10-15 plays, dictate the terms rather than read and react.

more play action passes too to open up the intermediate passing game.


tough to run play action when nobody respects your running game.
RE: RE: i  
Les in TO : 10/14/2016 2:57 pm : link
In comment 13173153 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13173144 Les in TO said:


Quote:


would like to see the giants come out in no huddle on sunday - go up tempo, script the first 10-15 plays, dictate the terms rather than read and react.

more play action passes too to open up the intermediate passing game.



tough to run play action when nobody respects your running game.
hopefully jennings' return will improve that respect enough that we can start making defenses pay for sitting back.
Run Plays, from QB under center  
idiotsavant : 10/14/2016 3:06 pm : link
and which allow/require the OL to fire out quickly, hit hard.

variety of those.

and more play action - from those.



less 'catch mode' 'on heels wide stance' required from our OL for all sorts of plays both run and pass.
in addition, running to the ends  
idiotsavant : 10/14/2016 3:07 pm : link
. same modus and logic
how about ..  
shelovesnycsports : 10/14/2016 4:11 pm : link
the annexation of Puerto Rico?
FMIC What do you think we should do ?  
Bluesbreaker : 10/14/2016 6:12 pm : link
Backshoulder throws..
FatMan in Charlotte : 10:37 am : link : reply
are useless in the red zone since they only work when the CB keeps going deep.

But hey, keep trying.

I mean not much is working right now since our O-line
can't run block enough to get the safties to commit ..
I rarely see Eli with a clean pocket either . I don't and
no one should perfection . I guess the coach calls it
a Hot Pocket ... Those things are gross IMO ..
Here is a play that works...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/14/2016 6:41 pm : link
Eli goes under center, drops back and looks right to move the safety coverages, the Oline actually blocks for a few seconds, and then Eli finds OBJ down the left sideline who has beaten his guy by a step. TD.

The play is called "hey, let's start playing offense."

i'll settle for you throw the ball you catch the ball  
gtt350 : 10/15/2016 9:12 am : link
.
How about the Giants stop turning it over  
djm : 10/15/2016 11:06 am : link
Baby steps. I promise if they eliminate a lot of the turnovers and stop playing brutal road games the offense will score points.
So  
hassan : 10/15/2016 11:55 am : link
I agree the Giants miss the back shoulder throw to guys like nicks and Burress --even against cover 2 Eli trusted these guys to win their battle and both could outmuscle defenders.

Will not work without a good sized receiver and won't work with this set of players. Hence the need for a possession receiver. Everyone is very excited by our names but I believe Giants need a size guy and to move Shepard into slot. Cruz is probably going to end up with ok stats but my guess is Giants need to push Shepard in slot and get a bigger wideout outside.

OR get a tight end and keep these receivers. But the lack of a big receiver is something Eli misses right now.

Cover 2 should be attacked primarily with smash routes and putting a set of receivers on a single safety in a trip or bunch and forcing safety to make a choice.

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