in getting O'Dell the ball to the fact that the Ravens were playing "Cover 1"
Claims they still have not solved the "Cover 2 " dilemma and that until they do the things you have to do to beat it, Run the ball, use the tight end, they will continue to struggle.
Thank you. Too many people don't understand what they're looking at and post like they think they do.
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Even Amani is an idiot. The Cover 2 shell in a 3-4 is very very different than a 4-3 cover 2. The CBs end up playing much deeper and make it a cover 3 essentially with a SS in the box. We threw the 10-15 yard outs and attacked the flats and hook zones which we hadn't done against the 4-3 teams. That forced the CBs to jump routes sooner and we were able to dictate late in the game. This isn't atom splitting, it's 3-4 vs. 4-3 and understanding what you're seeing.
Thank you. Too many people don't understand what they're looking at and post like they think they do.
So you knew all that? Or are you just giving Joey's opinion credence over an NFL player's because it's a good look for the Giants?
Not every team has the players for a successful Cover 2.
Saints did not, Washington didn't Cowboys jury is still out on their safeties. Ravens had injuries in the secondary.
Minn GB all have guys who can cover deep. The Rams may try it but I don't think they have the safeties either.
Let's see how it progresses with some improvement on fundamentals and more of eli hit his receivers in stride instead of putting throws in strange spots. Both halves were like night and day on Sunday. Second half was enjoyable it looked like they were clicking except for running game.
Pffft. Yup. The SS has to creep up to fill the middle where your typical Mike could patrol. The CBs can't jam the line bc there is very limited safety help. It only looks like a C1 because the FS creeps to one side, leaving the field side open. The DBs are supposed to play deep.
Oh btw, C1 plays outside shade - yet Beckham toasted them on the inside move, then the remaining safety (after the SS jumped) got beat.....guess what?!?
To the field side.
Tommer and his analysis suck, just regular or not.
We went up against how many backup DBs this season and this is the first time we took advantage of it?
No.. cover 2 is working against us because opposing defenses can stop our running game with just their front 7. Otherwise, they would have to drop a safety to help support the run thus making it much more difficult to play cover 2.
But Joey your point about 3-4 vs 4-3....
Doesn't GB run a 3-4 and we heard the same crap about the cover 2 after that game?
Did we attack the GB defense differently compared to Bal?
Yip, I miss Vereen, too.
There are finite resources. Everyone would like a great TE or great LB'ers, but you have to prioritize.
People who mindlessly criticize should, by law, be compelled to submit their alternatives - in a real time basis without benefit of hindsight.
The fact is you've won superbowls with Bear Pascoe and Boss, Chase Blackburn and Reggie Torbor. But you've never won without good corners, great passrushers an elite QB and top WR's.
Finite is the key word, finite resources and the acknowledgment that you can't get them all - you have to make choices.
.
good even though he doesn't know the offense as well
as Shane did. I was hoping he would stick a number of
members here wanted him gone .
Now if the O-line can somehow get the run game going
we should beat the Rams ....
Exactly
Here is what happened on that play. It was 4th and 1. So, the LBs had to step up closer to challenge the run. We had 3 WRs and they had a CB on each. They had just one safety deep but he stepped up to within 7 yards of the line of scrimmage to cover the TE. He had to stay close because we only needed 1 yard to move the sticks. Our TE ran an out while OBJ ran in. That is when the safety and the corner crossed.
If it was 3rd down and long, I guarantee they would have been playing cover 2.
What Armani has to answer is why the Ravens held the Giants without a first down for the the first 20 minutes of the game Sun. Then Powers,who is their primary slot cover, and Smith both went out. A consistent theme of mine is that schemes and coverages don't make players. Rather it is players who make them work. Baltimore ran out of players.
Badly needed win for the Giants. Now it is on to face the Rams and Fisher's dirties. Some sort of running game would be welcomed.
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between the corner and safety?
Here is what happened on that play. It was 4th and 1. So, the LBs had to step up closer to challenge the run. We had 3 WRs and they had a CB on each. They had just one safety deep but he stepped up to within 7 yards of the line of scrimmage to cover the TE. He had to stay close because we only needed 1 yard to move the sticks. Our TE ran an out while OBJ ran in. That is when the safety and the corner crossed.
If it was 3rd down and long, I guarantee they would have been playing cover 2.
That's not the one I'm talking about. I'm talking about the deep throw down the left sideline where Beckham stepped out of bounds just before the safety arrived.
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Yip, I miss Vereen, too.
Agreed. Along with the Tunsil draft debacle. We lost a shot at a OL and a FB.
Ditto tight ends = Piss poor running attack.
3-4, 4-3; doesn't matter, those safeties are going to play "way back", if the offense can't prove they can run the ball.
The "ugly" solution is get a lineman to play fullback; so what if he can't catch a pass !
Willie McGinnest once said on NFL Network:
"The key to beating Peyton Manning wasn't scheme, it was pressure. We ran a basic Cover 2 scheme, and just found different ways to get pressure on him."
Steve Young:
"Giants used Cover 2 on us. We had the plays for it, but they were so disciplined and disrupted our timing"
You look at Seattle with Cover 3 and how dominant they are with it, but then look at Atlanta and Jacksonville running the exact same scheme with experience doing it as Seattle DCs, and not able to get the same results.
Sucks that the guy can talk about anything and I cant care or take it seriously simply because he only appears when he wants to temper enthusiasm or make some media-rific horse doody comment that wasn't asked for or required. Just have this vision of him standing in front of his mirror saying "yeah ok OBJ but can you handle the damn cover 2???? nahhh i didnt think so."
Question is, where do Giants find a running game.
against a good passrush the OL (particularly on the right side) gets overrun and there just isnt time for eli to do much but short passes,combined with veeren and jennings missing time and a reduced threat to run the ball makes the giants to easy to defend unless beckham has a monster game like he did sunday
the stupid penalties especially on the defence are still killing them but i have to say that pass interference call on drc was one of the worst calls i have seen in a long time, if anything drc had position on the ball and HE was interfered by the WR to call that penalty on the home team is a joke
This might be the dumbest post I have read this season. Cover 2 is using two safeties whose responsibilities is deep half's. The CB's have the flats.
In a 4-3 your two OLB have Hook to Curl and your Mike has the middle. The problem is almost no team is in a tradition 4-3 including the Giants and almost no team is consistently in a traditional 3-4. If the CB's are playing deeper it has nothing to do with the 3-4 or 4-3 front and everything to do with the personnel, the call and what the coordinator is trying to do.
Yup, Smith was gone and Suggs went to the sidelines.
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and the past three or four are a slamming indictment of a GM who thinks a team can ignore ~two positions on O (TEs) and three on D (LBs) not to mention a belated attention to OL (with mediocre results) and claim they don't matter because of the compensatory focus on "high value" positions.
There are finite resources. Everyone would like a great TE or great LB'ers, but you have to prioritize.
People who mindlessly criticize should, by law, be compelled to submit their alternatives - in a real time basis without benefit of hindsight.
The fact is you've won superbowls with Bear Pascoe and Boss, Chase Blackburn and Reggie Torbor. But you've never won without good corners, great passrushers an elite QB and top WR's.
Finite is the key word, finite resources and the acknowledgment that you can't get them all - you have to make choices.
.
Its called the Baltimore or Manning disease they suck the oxygen out of the cap. That is why it is important that Eli shits gold every game.
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That most people are on here to criticize.
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and the past three or four are a slamming indictment of a GM who thinks a team can ignore ~two positions on O (TEs) and three on D (LBs) not to mention a belated attention to OL (with mediocre results) and claim they don't matter because of the compensatory focus on "high value" positions.
There are finite resources. Everyone would like a great TE or great LB'ers, but you have to prioritize.
People who mindlessly criticize should, by law, be compelled to submit their alternatives - in a real time basis without benefit of hindsight.
The fact is you've won superbowls with Bear Pascoe and Boss, Chase Blackburn and Reggie Torbor. But you've never won without good corners, great passrushers an elite QB and top WR's.
Finite is the key word, finite resources and the acknowledgment that you can't get them all - you have to make choices.
.
Its called the Baltimore or Manning disease they suck the oxygen out of the cap. That is why it is important that Eli shits gold every game.
Grizz has never understood the cap. Look at the cap space around the league next season. There aren't enough players to spend it all on.
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That most people are on here to criticize.
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and the past three or four are a slamming indictment of a GM who thinks a team can ignore ~two positions on O (TEs) and three on D (LBs) not to mention a belated attention to OL (with mediocre results) and claim they don't matter because of the compensatory focus on "high value" positions.
There are finite resources. Everyone would like a great TE or great LB'ers, but you have to prioritize.
People who mindlessly criticize should, by law, be compelled to submit their alternatives - in a real time basis without benefit of hindsight.
The fact is you've won superbowls with Bear Pascoe and Boss, Chase Blackburn and Reggie Torbor. But you've never won without good corners, great passrushers an elite QB and top WR's.
Finite is the key word, finite resources and the acknowledgment that you can't get them all - you have to make choices.
.
Its called the Baltimore or Manning disease they suck the oxygen out of the cap. That is why it is important that Eli shits gold every game.
That would only make sense if we were cash strapped and/or didn't just go on a huge spending spree.
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Even Amani is an idiot. The Cover 2 shell in a 3-4 is very very different than a 4-3 cover 2. The CBs end up playing much deeper and make it a cover 3 essentially with a SS in the box. We threw the 10-15 yard outs and attacked the flats and hook zones which we hadn't done against the 4-3 teams. That forced the CBs to jump routes sooner and we were able to dictate late in the game. This isn't atom splitting, it's 3-4 vs. 4-3 and understanding what you're seeing.
This might be the dumbest post I have read this season. Cover 2 is using two safeties whose responsibilities is deep half's. The CB's have the flats.
In a 4-3 your two OLB have Hook to Curl and your Mike has the middle. The problem is almost no team is in a tradition 4-3 including the Giants and almost no team is consistently in a traditional 3-4. If the CB's are playing deeper it has nothing to do with the 3-4 or 4-3 front and everything to do with the personnel, the call and what the coordinator is trying to do.
Well, Toomer might be an idiot but he's not totally wrong here and Joey's post isn't the dumbest on BBI this year.
The Ravens were playing Cover One a lot of the time due to blitz packages and injuries and to restate the obvious, the Giants lack a running game or an effective pass catching TE which makes Cover Two look like Fort Knox security.
Joey's post is a basic blueprint of how the different forms of Cover Two work with a 3-4 as opposed to a 4-3.
djstat is also correct that different coordinators have their own variations on the defense and that personnel and what the coordinator is trying to do dictate whether the corners are up or deep.
I think Armani, Joey and djstat should meet for lunch, hash it out and get back to us with a cumulative answer that we can all agree on.
Also, Giants almost never run to the outside, so the LBers are pinching in.
McAdoo's response has been to try and disguise his inside runs by running out of the shotgun and various other forms of deception. It has not really been that successful. The short passing game has also not been consistent because the offense is not forcing the LBers to get depth.
McAdoo started to adjust in the second half against the Ravens by running mulitple options at the safeties and forcing them to make decisions. That's how Odell broke the first TD. Safety covered the TE and he had the nickel corner one on one. But that requires the OL to give the QB time. McAdoo's conservatism has been more about not exposing his shit OL than it has been about the inability to defeat Cover 2.
THIS. This is and lack of productivity from TEs is the biggest problem. You need one or both aspects to take the pressure off of the WRs and QB. Teams are stuffing our run game and generating pressure on Eli with literally minimal resources, they are also not overly concerned with our below average TEs. This is a huge problem as teams are able to focus their efforts on taking away our WRs.
Also, Giants almost never run to the outside, so the LBers are pinching in.
McAdoo's response has been to try and disguise his inside runs by running out of the shotgun and various other forms of deception. It has not really been that successful. The short passing game has also not been consistent because the offense is not forcing the LBers to get depth.
McAdoo started to adjust in the second half against the Ravens by running mulitple options at the safeties and forcing them to make decisions. That's how Odell broke the first TD. Safety covered the TE and he had the nickel corner one on one. But that requires the OL to give the QB time. McAdoo's conservatism has been more about not exposing his shit OL than it has been about the inability to defeat Cover 2.
Vanzetti solid post dood.
Also, Giants almost never run to the outside, so the LBers are pinching in.
McAdoo's response has been to try and disguise his inside runs by running out of the shotgun and various other forms of deception. It has not really been that successful. The short passing game has also not been consistent because the offense is not forcing the LBers to get depth.
McAdoo started to adjust in the second half against the Ravens by running mulitple options at the safeties and forcing them to make decisions. That's how Odell broke the first TD. Safety covered the TE and he had the nickel corner one on one. But that requires the OL to give the QB time. McAdoo's conservatism has been more about not exposing his shit OL than it has been about the inability to defeat Cover 2.
Cover 2 is not designed to stop the short passing game, it is designed to stop the deep passing game.
Matt Bowen breaks it down here. - ( New Window )
SD - Gates and Henry have 31
Philly - 3 TE's have 25
KC - Kelce & Harris - 31
Only 4 TE's have over 30 catches
The TE's are open - this offense does not utilize them well enough
I don't believe so. The two safeties are deep to prevent the big play. CB's generally play up and try to jam the WR's knowing they have help over the top. The safeties are positioned the way they are to prevent 9's and corners which are deep routes. You're putting a shell over the top and trying to force an inside release to prevent the middle of the field from opening up.
When you play C2 and have a strong front 4, you're dropping 7 and preventing the offense from getting behind you.. you're keeping everything in front.
There's a reason why we keep checking into inside handoffs out of the gun. The box is light when we use 3 WR sets as we usually do and we should be able to run the football effectively but we're still not very good at it and can't exploit it.
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If you've got a top 5 run defense like GB, Minn and Balt do. Wait till some run of the mill run defense tries it.
Exactly
The Saints did the same thing, and their run defense... not so hot. Actually they seem to have set the blueprint. They stifled us. On the TEs I'm less worried about their pass catching ability then the absolute ZERO they add to helping an already mediocre OL with blocking.
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In comment 13180953 BillT said:
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If you've got a top 5 run defense like GB, Minn and Balt do. Wait till some run of the mill run defense tries it.
Exactly
The Saints did the same thing, and their run defense... not so hot. Actually they seem to have set the blueprint. They stifled us.
The story of that game was two easily dropped touchdowns. The Saints really didn't stifle anything.
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In comment 13181011 djm said:
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In comment 13180953 BillT said:
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If you've got a top 5 run defense like GB, Minn and Balt do. Wait till some run of the mill run defense tries it.
Exactly
The Saints did the same thing, and their run defense... not so hot. Actually they seem to have set the blueprint. They stifled us.
The story of that game was two easily dropped touchdowns. The Saints really didn't stifle anything.
TTH absolutely, I should have been more clear. Specifically they stifled our running game. Opposing defenses are not worried about our run or short passing game.... and Teams with better defenses are shutting us down. And our (lack of) T.O.P. is going to wear our defenders out by mid season.