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The Oline was much improved (long review of some run plays)

cnewk : 10/19/2016 3:26 pm
The Giants’ offensive line bounced back from their worst performance of the year (probably longer than that) and turned in a solid effort. Actually against the Packers the interior of the line had decent games. Pugh, Richburg, and Jerry all played pretty well overall last week. The trouble was that both Flowers and Hart were simply dreadful, in run blocking and pass protection.

This week Pugh had another excellent game, he is having a great year. Jerry had a solid game (very good in pass protection, but a little weak on run plays). Jerry’s run blocking has looked a lot better this year and even though this wasn’t his best run blocking game, it was better than what we usually saw last year. Richburg struggled a bit in the game, with a few issues in pass protection and he wasn’t nearly as good in run blocking as he was a year ago. I’m starting to get concerned that his play is not as good as it was a year ago. I don’t know if there is an injury or another explanation, but he is definitely not playing as well. The real headliner for me was the play of Bobby Hart. He rebounded and had a good game in both run and pass protection. It wasn’t perfect, or as good as Pugh, but if he can play like this consistently he should keep the starting job through the end of the year. Flowers had a decent. He was much improved from last week, but there were still a lot of things that really need to be cleaned up.

They really didn’t have very much success running the ball, but the O-line really didn’t have an awful game in run blocking. The tight ends and the running backs were at least as much to blame. Donnell and Tye both struggled, though they had a couple decent plays blocking. Here’s a review of a couple of the more successful run plays. When you gain 38 yards on 17 runs, there’s not going to be an awful lot of successful plays to look at. The good news is the pass protection was better, but review pass protection successes aren't as interesting.

2-6-BAL 23 (11:36 in the 3rd): 4 yard run by Rainey.

Pugh (yellow circle) is pulling to the right. Hart (red circle) and Jerry (green circle) double team Guy. Donnell is blocking Smith on the outside. Richburg and Flowers do a good job of getting blocking their men to the left (white circle). Jerry and Hart do a good job of pushing Guy backward, though Jerry has fallen off the block on and fallen to the ground. Hart keeps pushing him back until he is 3 yards down field and with his back to the ball when Rainey is running by. Donnell also has done a good job of sustaining his block and moving his man downfield. You can see in the 4th frame Rainey (gray circle) hesitates and does a stutter-step in the hole. I don’t know why he does this, but it slows him down and makes it easier for LB Orr to eventually make the tackle after a 4 yard gain. Typically on this play you would expect Jerry to continue to block Guy while Hart moves to the second level to block Orr. Since Jerry is falling down, Hart can’t do this. It’s possible Jerry was trying to move to the second level an block Orr, but this would seem a more unusual play design. Either way, I don’t throw to much blame on Jerry since he was part of the effort to move the DE 3 yards downfield at the point of attack. Overall a well blocked play. You can see Richburg doesn’t sustain his block throughout the whole play. But he holds it long enough for Rainey to hit the hole, even with his unnecessary hesitation. Also, because of where Hart is, it’s really not possible for Williams to make an attempt at a tackle.

2-5-NYG 16 (5:23 in 3rd): 4 yard run by Perkins.

This looks like the same play. Again Pugh (yellow circle) is pulling. Richburg (brown circle) is blocking Jernigan, and Hart (red) and Jerry (green) are to double team Urban. Likely the Hart is then supposed to move on to the second level and seal LB Orr to the inside. Looking at the first frame it looks like a great play call with a chance for a big gain. The Ravens are again in a dime package and DB Levine has come up into and is in front of LB Orr on the right side of the defense. It looks perfect for a run to the offense’s right.

Unfortunately the blocking doesn’t start out well. Flowers seals his man from the play on the backside, but Richburg allows Jernigan to swim past him. This means Jerry is forced to help block Jernigan rather than helping Hart with Urban. You can see in the 3rd frame there is a mess of bodies right where Perkins (white circle) is running. Richburg’s number 70 is sticks out in the pile clearly showing he is in no position to help block. Jerry is blocking Jernigan, but it’s not long before he is no longer able to provide any real help in this regard. Pugh hits Levine right in the hole and drives him back. Hart is able to push Urban a couple yards back by the time Perkins gets to the forming hole. At this point, Hart is essentially blocking Jernigan and Urban. Tye was able to block Judon well enough to give Perkins a little crease, but as Perkins runs by Judon sheds the block and grabs a hold of him. LB Orr fills the gap and helps stop Perkins’ forward momentum. The play is basically done now, since Judon has a firm hold on Perkins and his momentum has been stopped. But, Hart is able to shove Jernigan down field and as he turns blocks Orr away from Perkins so he can no longer assist with the tackle. Like I said, Judon has control of Perkins at this point and he’s not gaining anymore yards, but I like to see Hart taking every chance to block a guy away from the ball carrier. Eventually extra effort like that will help gain yards.

1-10-NYG 25 (6:42 in the 1st): 2 yard run for Jennings

Jerry (yellow) is pulling to the left. Hart seals Smith, and Richburg has Williams blocked. Flowers and Pugh are double teaming Jernigan, and they demolish him. You can see in the last frame they have driven him back 2 yards and in the process have walled off LB McClellan from the play. LB Orr also looks like he might get caught up in the wash a bit. Sadly, Donnell (black circle) has gotten manhandled by Suggs and there is now basically no hole for the pulling Jerry to run through. Jerry ends up helping block Suggs and Jennings squeezes through for a short 2 yard gain. If Donnell can block Suggs here there is a lot of room to run. The O-line (minus Jerry since he had to pick up Donnell’s man) all did a great job.

3-5-BAL 39 (13:00 in 3rd): 2 yard run by Jennings.

To me this looks like an example of bad vision and decision-making by Jennings. Perhaps looking at the coach’s film would show something else, but this looks to be on Jennings to me. The Ravens have 5 men at the line of scrimmage and their LB blitzing up the middle. Here are what the assignments look like to me. Hart is to block down on the DE leaving the OLB to be picked up by the Pugh who is pulling. Jerry is to block the blitzing LB. Richburg is blocking the NT. Flowers is block the LB who is lined up more like a 3-4 DE over top of him. This leaves Suggs potentially free on the back side as the run is going to the right, and Adams will be following behind Pugh as the lead blocker.

LB Orr who was lined up over Flowers loops around to his left a little which makes it difficult for Flowers to block him. He takes a couple steps toward him, but then decides against continuing to pursue him as he turns back toward Suggs to possibly block. Suggs has looped pretty wide and so has taken himself out of the play and Flowers ends up not blocking anyone. It would have been great if Flowers could have blocked Orr, but I’m not sure what his assignment would really be here. The end result is Flowers and Suggs are both out of the play, which is what you would want to happen if Suggs had taken a more direct route toward the ball carrier. Jerry and Richburg (together in the red circle) do well to block their men to the left. Hart (white) blocks his man and Pugh connects with the OLB leaving a nice size hole to run through (highlighted by the red arrow). Instead of going this way Jennings hesitates with a stutter step and then chooses to follow Adams and towards more defenders. Adams makes initial contact with Orr, but isn’t able to get a very good block on him. Jennings is tackled by Orr and safety Weddle who has as come in to help. The other safety was playing very deep and Weddle was on the defenses right side as he came up in run support. He would have had a difficult time getting in on the play if Jennings goes right of Hart. Hart also was blocking Jernigan to the inside, you can see from where they were initially lined-up this was by necessity. It would have been very hard for him to get to Jernigan and move him to the outside. Jernigan also ends up helping with the tackle.

Again, I don’t have the coach’s tape, but I have to believe this would show the same thing. It looks like Jennings should have been able easily get a read off of Harts positioning and go to his right. There really was just not room to follow his lead blocker Adams, even if he made a good block. This doesn’t even mention that Weddle was coming up in run support and the safety on the offenses right side had lined up deep and dropped back even deeper right with the snap.

So in these four runs we had 1 that was blocked well and got a modest gain and gave Rainey an opportunity to get a larger gain if he could beat one guy. A second one that had some Oline failings, but still resulted in a chance for a nice gain. A third where the Oline had it blocked very well and the TE's failure doomed the play. And the last one showed where the line had it blocked well but Jenning didn't read the play well.
awesome post and analysis  
Les in TO : 10/19/2016 3:38 pm : link
love reading about the O-line play. if you were on the payroll, I'd ask you to do these for our defense :)
Great stuff. Thanks.  
dancing blue bear : 10/19/2016 3:39 pm : link
I have been pleasantly surprised with Hart. Not an expert, but i like his nasty, and he seems to be doing an ok job. Would be sweet if he could develop into a decent/ plus RT. What is your longterm view on Hart, ...and i guess Flowers as well

I agree both guards have been plus players this year, and Weston seems to have taken a little step back.

Thanks for the effort!
Nice job putting together all that work  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2016 3:41 pm : link
But you clearly are way to kind to the players in your comments. We have an awful running game...and its everybody involved.

The only hope I have for it this season is that Perkins can gain the confidence of the coaches soon enough to get more snaps. And maybe we get lucky and he performs well, and things start to gel a bit more for the overall crew.

But right now, the Giants would struggle running against my local high school team...



Thanks for the effort!  
okiegiant : 10/19/2016 3:43 pm : link
I enjoy reading these(fascinated by line play).

Still worried about Richburg but happy Jerry is playing better. I don't know what to make of Flowers at this point and time.
With 2 #1 picks on the left side  
phil in arizona : 10/19/2016 3:45 pm : link
along with a 2nd round center, we should be shitting down people's necks when we run left.

Hopefully we are just in some sort of transitional phase.
Nice post it looks like you put in a lot of effort  
pjcas18 : 10/19/2016 3:46 pm : link
but strictly speaking about the run on Sunday, the Giants ran 17 times for 38 yards. for an average slightly over 2 ypc with no run longer than 6 yards.

So are you saying the issues running the ball are:

a) on the running back
b) on the tight end
c) other

because the OL is doing their job?

Just trying to see if you can sum up your thread into a way that might explain your stance the OL was much improved running the ball but the run game results certainly didn't show it.
RE: Nice job putting together all that work  
cnewk : 10/19/2016 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13181784 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
But you clearly are way to kind to the players in your comments. We have an awful running game...and its everybody involved.

The only hope I have for it this season is that Perkins can gain the confidence of the coaches soon enough to get more snaps. And maybe we get lucky and he performs well, and things start to gel a bit more for the overall crew.

But right now, the Giants would struggle running against my local high school team...


The blocking was awful against Green Bay (although I do think it was mainly the tackles, unfortunately they were REALLY bad so the interior didn't matter much). They gained a dismal 38 yards on 17 carries. So, I was expecting to see a lot of bad run blocking when I went back through and looked closer. The offensive line blocking wasn't close to as bad as the numbers would suggest. It was better than I expected, so my review probably comes across as more positive because of that.

For run blocking: Pugh was good. Hart was pretty good, and Flowers, Richburg, and Jerry were mediocre because they were inconsistant.

For pass protection: Flowers had some struggles, but was still OK. Hart and Richburg were pretty good with a couple blips. Jerry and Pugh were very good in pass protection.
But that's just it...you can't have 1-2 guys missing blocks on  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2016 4:04 pm : link
each play or being so inconsistent and conclude that the O-line is much improved.

Teams that run the ball well (or even ok) have all 5 guys plus a TE blocking much more consistently than us.

Not saying everybody has great o-lines that don't miss blocks, but we do it on almost every single running play.
Wow....  
Simms11 : 10/19/2016 4:06 pm : link
that's impressive analysis and well thought out. I'm no expert on line play, but this is pretty informative.
Cnewk  
Jay on the Island : 10/19/2016 4:13 pm : link
You have studied the OL quite a bit. How would you rate Hart's performance so far this year and do you think he is the long term answer at RT? If Hart could develop into a solid starting RT then that means RG is the only position without a long term answer assuming Flowers gets his head on straight and improves.
RE: Nice post it looks like you put in a lot of effort  
cnewk : 10/19/2016 4:17 pm : link
In comment 13181791 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but strictly speaking about the run on Sunday, the Giants ran 17 times for 38 yards. for an average slightly over 2 ypc with no run longer than 6 yards.

So are you saying the issues running the ball are:

a) on the running back
b) on the tight end
c) other

because the OL is doing their job?

Just trying to see if you can sum up your thread into a way that might explain your stance the OL was much improved running the ball but the run game results certainly didn't show it.


The Oline still deserves plenty of blame for the lack of a running game. But, they don't deserve all the blame. My main point was that despite the numbers, the line run blocked quite a bit better than against the Packers. Again, this is a very low hurdle. They had 14 carries for 42 yards against the Packers. When I re-watched that game things looked just about as bad as those numbers would suggest (the TEs weren't particularly good either). When I re-watched the Ravens game the run blocking for the offensive line looked noticeably better than the previous week. It still wasn't particularly good, but it was better.

I was most pleased with Hart because he'd pretty good against Washington and even looked ok against the Vikings. But he was really bad against the Packers, it was nice to see him rebound.

RE: RE: Nice post it looks like you put in a lot of effort  
pjcas18 : 10/19/2016 4:20 pm : link
In comment 13181829 cnewk said:
Quote:
In comment 13181791 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


but strictly speaking about the run on Sunday, the Giants ran 17 times for 38 yards. for an average slightly over 2 ypc with no run longer than 6 yards.

So are you saying the issues running the ball are:

a) on the running back
b) on the tight end
c) other

because the OL is doing their job?

Just trying to see if you can sum up your thread into a way that might explain your stance the OL was much improved running the ball but the run game results certainly didn't show it.



The Oline still deserves plenty of blame for the lack of a running game. But, they don't deserve all the blame. My main point was that despite the numbers, the line run blocked quite a bit better than against the Packers. Again, this is a very low hurdle. They had 14 carries for 42 yards against the Packers. When I re-watched that game things looked just about as bad as those numbers would suggest (the TEs weren't particularly good either). When I re-watched the Ravens game the run blocking for the offensive line looked noticeably better than the previous week. It still wasn't particularly good, but it was better.

I was most pleased with Hart because he'd pretty good against Washington and even looked ok against the Vikings. But he was really bad against the Packers, it was nice to see him rebound.


Thanks, good stuff, not sure I understand all the assignments, etc. but hopefully the good blocking turns into game results soon.
Fantastic Post  
shelovesnycsports : 10/19/2016 4:48 pm : link
I love the Xs and Os stuff :)
It also doesn't help our run game that we only have one run play  
Gmen24 : 10/19/2016 4:53 pm : link
And formation
Honestly, I'm not an expert  
cnewk : 10/19/2016 5:04 pm : link
And, I hope I didn't paint too rosy of a picture of the offensive line. It wasn't as if with better TE and RB play we would have had a dominant run game. The line play fell more in the range of my expectations going into the season. Against the Packers it was well below what I expected.

The pass protection against the Ravens was good, against the Packers the pass protection by the tackles was awful.

Against Green Bay I thought Hart's run blocking was even worse than his already bad pass protection. He was greatly improved in both run and pass blocking to the point where he had a pretty good game. He really only had one bad play in run blocking that I saw (not to say the rest were great, but they we pretty good). Against the Packers he had 3 or 4 really bad run plays and not many that were good.
Here is another play.  
cnewk : 10/19/2016 5:45 pm : link
Here the offensive line had some decent blocks (not perfect but decent). It is stopped for a 1 yard gain because of poor blocking by Tye combined with being a play they probably should have checked out of.

1-10-NYG 19 (13:12)

You can see the Giants have 3 WR at the bottom of the screen. It looks like the defense is playing some kind of zone as they have left a CB up at the top. This creates 7 men that need to be block on a run to the left. But the Giants only have 6 blockers. They end up not blocking the CB, who isn’t the one that makes the tackle, so you might think it didn’t matter that the extra CB was there. He had to guard the outside run and it was designed to go inside the TE. The problem is that have the CB there with nobody to block him makes the Suggs job that much easier. Tye is probably going to have difficulty blocking Suggs anyway, but now Suggs can really favor the inside without much thought given to protecting the outside.

Hart blocks his man (91), Jerry pulls, and Richburg blocks his man decently. Pugh and Flowers combo block with Flowers moving on to the LB. They do a great job of blocking Jernigan, but you can see Flowers (white circle) gets a little off balance as he finishes this block and starts to move to the second level. This brings him too far to the right to get a clean block on the LB. He is able to get a hand on him to slow him down and redirect him a little, but not a lot. Pugh drives Jernigan far away from the play. Unfortunately in the process it looks like he knocks Richburg (red circle) a little off his man. Richburg has still blocked his man well enough to keep him out of the play if it able to run as designed. Jerry blocks the LB filling the whole and does an ok job with it. The trouble is that Suggs has controlled Tye and has the inside shoulder easily covered. This is where Jennings is forced to run since the CB is all alone on the outside. He easily makes the stop for a gain of 1. If the CB is not there and Tye can effectively block Suggs, Jennings probably has a 4 yard gain even with Flowers not getting a good block on the LB. Jennings would then have the chance to be the LB in the open field to try to pick up more. Again, not perfectly blocked by the Oline. But, the line blocked well enough to get a moderate gain. Tye failed, but part of his failure is a result of the play call.
Nice job!  
joe48 : 10/19/2016 6:03 pm : link
How much more resources do we need to commit to the Oline?
What's interesting is the AFC offensive player of the week...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/19/2016 7:44 pm : link
especially considering that Miami cut 2 OL (both emergency starters the week before) going into the week. They then have Ajayi run for over 8 ypc.

Who do we need to cut to get our running game going? I honestly wonder if we aren't at the point that we should be holding players accountable for inconsistency blocking in the run game. It seems to happen almost every running down. How much inconsistency should we tolerate?
cnewk, great job.  
section125 : 10/19/2016 7:59 pm : link
Yes Hart was awful against GB. Seems he has trouble with wide split speed rushers. Not a surprise since that was written as a con in the scouting reports out of college. That could be helped with a TE chipping the outside shoulder of the edge rusher.
absolutely great work  
HomerJones45 : 10/19/2016 10:06 pm : link
And "much improved" must from horrible to bad.

Seriously, you have done yeoman's work here. Thank you.
RE: absolutely great work  
Big Blue '56 : 10/19/2016 10:23 pm : link
In comment 13182176 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
And "much improved" must from horrible to bad.

Seriously, you have done yeoman's work here. Thank you.


What Homer said
Terrific Informative Post  
Percy : 10/20/2016 11:07 am : link
I agree with you that Richburg is probably dealing with an injury (doubt we want to see Jones in there instead). Even so, as you point out, the TE blocking on running plays has been bad. The others may be getting to the right places often enough, but still have been pretty ineffective. Solution? I have no idea.
i think what you're seeing  
area junc : 10/20/2016 11:16 am : link
is decent OL blocking producing poor results due to the D knowing exactly what play to defend. We run the same running play over and over again, week in, week out like a bad Madden player.
We don't care to schematically install a diverse running attack. We don't have a run game because we don't deserve to have one. it has to be frustrating for the OL and RBs as well
Here is the one bad run play by Hart I saw.  
cnewk : 10/20/2016 11:17 am : link
1-10-NYG 25 (1st play of second half): 3 yard gain for Jennings

This looks like an outside zone run. Pugh goes to the second level while Flowers loops behind him and blocks Jernigan who is lined up over Pugh’s outside shoulder. Richburg blocks Williams who is lined up over him. Jerry goes to the second level and blocks the LB. Hart (yellow circle) is blocking Smith, with Donnell blocking Suggs on the backside. The Giants don’t do a lot of zone blocking, but this play well blocked except for Hart. Hart is trying to get to the outside of Smith to give Jennings the outside edge. But really Hart doesn’t need to get to the outside, he just needs to get a decent block on Smith and not get pushed back. Then he can let Jennings read his block and determine whether to go inside or outside. Unfortunately he gets pushed back taking away the outside run. Then as Jennings cut the ball inside, Smith disengages and hits him at the line of scrimmage. Jennings is still able to get 3 yards, but there was an opportunity for a really big gain here if Hart does his job.

Jerry and Richburg (white circles) have effectively blocked their men. Sheppard (red circle) has a nice block on the CB. Flowers has gotten to Jernigan and Pugh after fight through Jernigan has gotten to LB Orr. Pugh isn’t in perfect blocking position to block the LB, but he is there and able to slow him down and redirect him. Orr might have a chance to get in on the play, but it would be tough. If Hart is able to sustain a block on Smith, Jennings is looking at a huge hole and lots of room in the secondary. This was the one run play I saw where Hart really did a bad job. It might be that he isn’t very comfortable with zone blocking. This was a good play call. I like having the TE on the backside of the play and they were still able to get numbers on the play side. It's just unfortunate this was the play where Hart's run blocking failed, otherwise it's likely going for 10+ yards.
RE: i think what you're seeing  
cnewk : 10/20/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13182474 area junc said:
Quote:
is decent OL blocking producing poor results due to the D knowing exactly what play to defend. We run the same running play over and over again, week in, week out like a bad Madden player.
We don't care to schematically install a diverse running attack. We don't have a run game because we don't deserve to have one. it has to be frustrating for the OL and RBs as well


The Giants definitely have their bread and butter plays, but I don't think its quite as bad as you make out. Here is a run that switches things up.

1-10-NYG 33 (1:01 in 1st): Perkins run for 6.

This is a well designed by that works off some of the Giants favorite runs. (Though, you could definitely argue with the play call with 1 minute in the half and no time outs.) Jerry is pulling to the left. Usually Pugh and Flowers would block Smith (who is lined up in front of them) and then Flowers would move on to LB Orr. Jerry would then follow behind and block DB Levine who is essentially playing nickel LB. Instead the twist here is that Pugh and Flowers (yellow circle) make initial contact with Smith (simulating the start of the play I described), but then they quickly move past him and on to the LBs. Jerry (red circle) then picks up Smith. Tye is outside blocking McClellan.

The play ends up gaining 6 yards, but could have gone for more. The main failure here that I see is Pugh does not get in position to block Orr. Orr shoots by Pugh and even though Perkins gets by him he is forced far enough to the outside that McClellan can grab on. Tye’s block on McClellan isn’t great, but I think without Orr getting past Pugh it likely would have been good enough. Really you can see both Flowers and Pugh are setting up their blocks too far to the inside. Flowers is in better position and is able to get a hand on Levine, but Pugh wasn’t able to slow Orr down at all. This was the one play I saw where Pugh didn’t execute his job on a run play. Perkins does a good job of hitting the hole fast, and driving forward for more yards.
thanks cnewk good breakdowns too  
area junc : 10/20/2016 12:34 pm : link
didn't mean for my comment to be taken literally. but we are far too simple in our run game. If we're under Center it's a good bet it'll be a zone stretch right or a delay up the gut. Shotgun? It's the inside hand-off and everyone knows it. too predictable. IMO.
and that last play you posted  
area junc : 10/20/2016 12:38 pm : link
was an inside hand-off from the Shotgun formation. Again, very predictable whether it was blocked a little differently or not. the predictability of where the ball is going is a reason for our lack of production IMO
RE: and that last play you posted  
cnewk : 10/20/2016 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13182579 area junc said:
Quote:
was an inside hand-off from the Shotgun formation. Again, very predictable whether it was blocked a little differently or not. the predictability of where the ball is going is a reason for our lack of production IMO


I think you are over simplifying things a bit. Changing the way a run is blocked makes a big difference, even if the ball is going to the same place. The don't run it to the outside that much, mostly I think because their running backs just aren't that fast. You can't just say an inside run is an inside run. Knowing where the ball is supposed to go is only one part of the equation for the defense. You have to know who where the blockers are coming from. If you know where the ball is going but get surprised by who is blocking you, it won't matter much that you knew it was an inside run.
RE: and that last play you posted  
giants#1 : 10/20/2016 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13182579 area junc said:
Quote:
was an inside hand-off from the Shotgun formation. Again, very predictable whether it was blocked a little differently or not. the predictability of where the ball is going is a reason for our lack of production IMO


Running from shotgun strongly limits the types of runs available. That said, "predictability" of the inside handoff is not the Giants biggest running issue. Their overall numbers when running from shotgun are OK (not great, but not terrible). It's their inability to run when under center that blows. And part of THAT could be the predictability. Some play-action passes from under center might open things up a little.

Shotgun
Passes: 205
Runs: 46 for 190 yards (4.1 ypc)
Jennings: 20 for 82 yards (4.1 ypc)
Darkwa: 16 for 75 yards (4.7 ypc)
Rainey: 10 for 33 yards (3.3 ypc)

Under Center
Passes: 28
Runs: 39 for 95 yards (2.4 ypc)
Jennings: 20 for 35 yards (1.8 ypc)
Darkwa: 14 for 36 yards (2.6 ypc)
Rainey: 5 for 24 yards (4.8 ypc)

Summary
- Giants run 58% of the time when under center vs 18% when in shotgun
- Giants average 4.1 ypc from shotgun vs 2.4 ypc from under center

RE: RE: and that last play you posted  
area junc : 10/20/2016 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13182602 cnewk said:
Quote:
In comment 13182579 area junc said:


Quote:


was an inside hand-off from the Shotgun formation. Again, very predictable whether it was blocked a little differently or not. the predictability of where the ball is going is a reason for our lack of production IMO



I think you are over simplifying things a bit. Changing the way a run is blocked makes a big difference, even if the ball is going to the same place. The don't run it to the outside that much, mostly I think because their running backs just aren't that fast. You can't just say an inside run is an inside run. Knowing where the ball is supposed to go is only one part of the equation for the defense. You have to know who where the blockers are coming from. If you know where the ball is going but get surprised by who is blocking you, it won't matter much that you knew it was an inside run.


This is where we disagree. I think it matters big time and partially explains our lack of production. Also Vereen, Darkwa, Rainey and Perkins are/were plenty fast to run outside. Agree to disagree, no big deal. Still love the breakdowns we need more of this around here.
I keep waiting for  
PEEJ : 10/20/2016 1:33 pm : link
the outside toss from the shotgun. Rainey/Perkins have enough speed to threaten the end
You are right I think Rainey and Perkins probably have the speed  
cnewk : 10/20/2016 1:55 pm : link
I don't think it would be a strength of Jennings or Darkwa. This year they do have a bit more speed at the RB position. I think as Perkins gets more involved we'll start to see him on some outside runs. We'll see.
RE: RE: and that last play you posted  
Dan in the Springs : 10/20/2016 7:32 pm : link
In comment 13182602 cnewk said:
The don't run it to the outside that much, mostly I think because their running backs just aren't that fast.[/quote]

Great work by the way, and the insights you gain from your review of the game are valid, imo.

I would quibble with the above quote just a bit. I'm not sure the speed of the RB's is as much of a factor as the looks we're getting from the defenses. I think when we go with the 3-wide look most of the game, and the defenses counter with 6 in the box, we should have a matchup advantage inside. With two-deep safeties the DB's are close to the line and in good position to defend outside runs.

We are running inside because the matchups are/should be better there.

What we need is more consistency across the board. We need more plays where all 6 blockers win enough to create lanes for our runners. We're not getting that enough lately.
Dan  
cnewk : 10/20/2016 8:03 pm : link
Yeah, I actually agree. I think Jennings isn't well suit for running outside, but you are probably right that it has a lot to do with the defensive looks they are getting.
Coaches tape on Jennings 2 yard gain  
DL_Mechs : 10/21/2016 7:40 pm : link
Hey, good analysis. Made me fire up the coaches tape and I went through the tape and will highlight the issue with this play. Excuse me if I get some of the Ravens players wrong, hard to see their numbers

It seems as if Flowers was assigned to block Orr, but after a few steps,
Orr cut to Flower's right and ended up stopping Jennings run right at the end of the play. But this was not FLower's fault, I can back up CNwerk in saying this was Jenning not seeing the gap properly.


So in this shot, Suggs is lined up over Adams (yellow circle), Orr over Flowers (black circle). Pugh and Jerry are not covering anyone (green circles) and Hart looks to be covering someone I can't quite identify (red circle). Ravens lineback is looking to blitz the a gap between Richburg and Jerry (blue line)


When the play develops, we see Adams following Pugh and pulling immediately to the right (green arrows), which leaves Suggs and Smith as free edge rushers (white circles), and Flowers appearing to block Orr (black circle). The Raven's linebacker blitzing down to the A gap which is picked up by Jerry (blue circle). Richburg also has the DT tied up too (yellow circle)


What we now see here is Orr moving to Flower's right and Flowers either going left or staying stuck on the spot based on his hip angle (black circle). We can also see more clearly Pugh about to steam roll OLB Smith with Adams still behind him (green arrows). I presume Adams was meant to block the A or B gap or just looking at what holes are available. But as you will see in the next shot, he is pre occupied.


Now as Jennings takes the handoff, in what appears to be a hilarious Madden style glitch, Flowers has actually gone left and is looking around for someone to block (black circle). Orr has somehow escaped Flowers into the middle of the pack and is eyeing the play developing. He is also hoving over the closet gap to Jennings (pink circle). Adams has crashed down and assisted in double teaming with Jerry's assigned block on the blitzing linebacker (green circle) and I think was necessary as you can see the line backer appears to have displaced Jerry to the side and could crash down on Eli or Jennings, depending on the play.


But this is the image that is the glaring negative to Jennings. See all that green turn between Pugh and Hart. GO IN THERE!!! It seems as if it wasn't a patient decision. I can image a Bell, Anderson or even Freeman waiting for the hole to develop, then hitting it.


The worst thing is that this play could have picked up a tonne of yards, 20 yards easily, MAYBE even a TD as there was only 1 safety high.

So between Flowers not occupying his man and Jennings choosing the pack instead of the gap, this play fell flat on its butt.
The above shots  
Giants_ROK : 10/21/2016 7:49 pm : link
are why end zone seats are so good.
RE: The above shots  
DL_Mechs : 10/21/2016 7:58 pm : link
In comment 13184398 Giants_ROK said:
Quote:
are why end zone seats are so good.


I've actually got endzone seats for Sunday. I was a little annoyed at the choice initially, but I have come to realise how much you can view from there...That is if you appreciate good Oline play
Exactly.  
Giants_ROK : 10/21/2016 8:32 pm : link
A good pair of binoculars and you really get to see what the game is all about. When I watch a game on TV, my eyes don't leave the line until the ball is out of the QBs hands.

Have fun.
RE: Exactly.  
DL_Mechs : 10/21/2016 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13184426 Giants_ROK said:
Quote:
A good pair of binoculars and you really get to see what the game is all about. When I watch a game on TV, my eyes don't leave the line until the ball is out of the QBs hands.

Have fun.


Cheers mate
DL_Mechs  
cnewk : 10/22/2016 12:05 am : link
Thanks for posting pictures from the coach's tape. You can see the whole play more clearly this way. But you can really see what happens with Jerry and Adams. From the broadcast angle it looked like a Giant blocker engaged to with Orr briefly in the hole. I thought It was Adams. But it looks like what actually happened was Adams helped Jerry. And I think Orr probably makes brief contact with Jerry as he fills the gap. But you can definitely see Jennings hit the wrong "hole."

That's a really funny picture of Flowers. It does make him look like he is actively blocking the air like a video game glitch.
RE: DL_Mechs  
DL_Mechs : 10/22/2016 5:05 am : link
In comment 13184525 cnewk said:
Quote:
Thanks for posting pictures from the coach's tape. You can see the whole play more clearly this way. But you can really see what happens with Jerry and Adams. From the broadcast angle it looked like a Giant blocker engaged to with Orr briefly in the hole. I thought It was Adams. But it looks like what actually happened was Adams helped Jerry. And I think Orr probably makes brief contact with Jerry as he fills the gap. But you can definitely see Jennings hit the wrong "hole."

That's a really funny picture of Flowers. It does make him look like he is actively blocking the air like a video game glitch.


No worries. I love when people breakdown the game like your post, as it makes it easier to understand what is going on

Let me know if you need anymore pictures from the Coaches' tape!
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