Ok. Let's see if I can do this better in round two.
I've raised four grown daughters and my wife, after 20 years of marriage, revealed a secret she had been keeping all her life - that she was sexually molested by her grandfather for years starting at the age of 7 (he lived with them). The abuse affected her tremendously and its revelation had a very big impact upon me and our four girls.
When the abuse was revealed to me, I began educating myself on the topic. The thing that stunned me the most was learning that studies in the USA dating back to the early 1900s right up until today were all consistent - by the age of 18 one out of every three girls had suffered serious sexual abuse, almost always by a person of trust (a parent, uncle, teacher, religious leader, etc). And the overwhelming majority tell nobody about the abuse. The studies are anonymous and involve adults - and the majority of respondents indicate they have kept their secret their entire lives.
What stuns me about this - is why are these studies kept so secret? Here I was an educated person - well read or so I thought. How could it be that 1/3rd of women in our society were silently and secretly suffering the affects of serious sexual abuse and I hadn't heard a thing about it in 50 years of life?
With that by way of background, let's move on to Josh Brown. I've been reading a lot of threads about how horrible the Giants are for not firing Josh Brown sooner or for this or for that. It seemed to me, however, to be missing the point. Missing the larger picture.
It isn't enough to fire Josh Brown. It isn't enough to get upset about domestic violence when it involves Josh Brown but not be upset about it 30 days before this story broke. Firing Josh Brown may be necessary but it isn't a solution. The Giants/NFL (or government) donating a hundred million dollars towards a program designed to educate the public about a very complex issue is a more practical solution that would tell me the Giants/NFL is serious about the issue.
What is domestic violence? I think we all agree that the image of Ray Rice punching his wife was domestic violence. But what about screaming out of control during an argument with your girlfriend or wife? What about smashing a lamp during that argument? Grabbing her wrist so she can't walk away and has to finish hearing you out? Are those things ok? Are they precursors to actual violence? Isn't domestic violence really just "out of control anger" and aren't the examples above "out of control anger"?
How much of this is because males in our society have learned (or have in our DNA) to respond to anger with fisticuffs? We see it every day. Males fighting in school. Males fighting at sporting events. Males fighting in bars. Road rage. We males tend to turn to violence pretty quickly when we get angry. (and yes, females commit domestic violence but, I'm sorry, there just isn't any comparison between female violence and male violence in society).
There's a bigger story here than "Josh Brown is a scumbag." Many of us men have had situations in which we have become very angry and we end up "proud of ourselves" that we "controlled ourselves" and didn't hit our girlfriend or wife and instead only smashed a lamp, or kicked a table over, etc etc. But really, at the end of the day, THAT out of control anger is the problem behind domestic violence. It really isn't ok to smash a lamp or kick over a table. A woman subjected to such uncontrolled rage is threatened by such acts and knows, deep down, she could have been that lamp in the midst of uncontrolled rage.
And while firing Josh Brown may make us feel good, at the end of the day more than that needs to be done. Maybe instead of calling for his firing, it would be helpful to write the Maras demanding they start an educational program to first of all be sure society understands how widespread this issue is - and then secondly to start the very discussion I hope we can have here about the role of violence and fisticuffs in male lives as a response to anger and its implications.
Lastly, I apologize for deleting the last thread. Cruzin, Mike, Yat, BurrberryManning and others had very good posts that got lost and hopefully they will take the time to express again here. At the end of the day, this is a discussion that we, as males, should not be afraid to have.
I don't think they were aware of the extent of the abuse
and unfortunately it's a PR Nightmare .
Lots of blame to go around and it's obvious Brown not only
has a drinking problem and a temper problem .
I doubt that Brown got help on his own probably at some
point in time the courts forced him to get treatment .
I don't think the Giants burried there heads in the sand either . I feel bad for his wife I have seen many times
in my life woman in an abusive relationship seem to have
a difficult time in realizing the severity and do take
more than they should when children are involved .
For me to sit here and call anyone names about it isn't
gonna help anyone .
Hopefully she gets her life back together and Brown do the
same . He most likely will be black balled like Ray Rice
did . The NFL under Goodell STINKS .
But I'll just leave it by saying you ask 10 people in a room who is an above average driver or above average intelligence, 8 or 9 will tell you they are in that above average group.
Maybe BBI, a football forum, would be a little better off if people contemplated that maybe, just maybe, they aren't in the above average group of knowing what the real facts are...and if they did, maybe, just maybe, their heated rhetorical attacks would go away and we could all get back to enjoying our favorite football team. This has little to do with Josh Brown for me at this point. I have plenty of my own imperfections to work on. I better get busy tending my own garden.
Have a nice weekend.
I'm disappointed in the Brown situation, no doubt. I also have know idea how much the front office or the NFL knew when. I think we'd all like to imagine the Giants took the high road, but that's probably naive.
Point being, moments of anger are not necessarily domestic abuse. The bruises on her wrist, etc., on the other hand, speak volumes.
I have raised my voice and have said hurtful things I regret saying. In almost every case there was provocation and in some cases the provocation was clearly intended to invoke an response. The key for me is setting and maintaining boundaries. This is much harder for some than it is for others. I do not believe that any of us are perfect. Perhaps the OP has never raised his voice, kicked his golf bag, and has found coping mechanisms that work for him.
Josh Brown made mistakes, possibly unprovoked, possibly provoked. It is particularly disturbing that there seems to have been a pattern and not an isolated incident. Apparently he is getting help and that will have far more impact than any suspension if he is truely open to changing his behavior.
IMO - Getting help needs to be the focus. Learn how to diffuse confrontation. Learn how not to provoke. Learn how to react when you are provoked.Learn how to cope with frustration. These skills apply to more than domestic violence. They are not taught in school - why not? Why not include this type of training at an early age? A lot of this problem is rooted in poor anger management.
We will never be perfect. To have no reaction, no response, no emotion, is probably not perfect either. I think everyone would agree that physical violence or intimidation is never acceptable. We can learn to be better. Scapegoating is not the answer. Will Josh Brown be a "bad person" forever? He has no chance at redemption?
So the Giants and Josh Brown? Did they know everything? Did he come clean? Did he honestly acknowledge his problems and has he gotten help? Has this actually helped him to change his behavior? Has the behavior continued?So what if he did come clean, did seek help, has changed and evolved? Do you give him a job? Or do you say that there is no salvation possible?
I do not know what he did with respect to acknowledging and addressing his issues. Perhaps he was not open and honest. The Giants know more than we do. The easiest thing would be not to sign him or to release him. The fact that they did not take the easy way out may actually say more good than bad about the team and its ownership.
I wish Josh, his children, and his ex-wife the best. I hope he will be able to deal with his demons and have a great life moving forward either with the Giants or not. I know that he got a divorce and that is a chance to start over. Good luck Josh Brown.
Alas, I have raised my voice. And broken things. All in anger (polite way to say "rage"?). Those tended to be years ago when I was younger. And it always "scared me" afterwards because I felt I was out of control with anger - that I was "lucky" I hadn't touched my wife during the argument. It's easy to suggest a nice dialog, but it isn't always easy to control anger. All my life I was always quick to turn to my fists when I had conflict with other boys/men (which is pretty amazing all by itself since I wasn't very successful at fisticuffs).
So I'm not casting stones by any means. I just believe the subject is more complex than "Josh Brown is a scumbag" and deserves some intelligent discussion of the issue and what to be done about it.
And not to make simple light of it, but $1 or $100M dollars for a program to educate people is not going to be better "remedy" than every human doing some self-realization that they should do unto others...
And not to make simple light of it, but $1 or $100M dollars for a program to educate people is not going to be better "remedy" than every human doing some self-realization that they should do unto others...
Thanks Jimmy. I agree about the self-realization, but education may be necessary for people to understand the need for it.
How is it the NFL s responsibility to fund research for d o and if it is, why not other issues?
How is it the NFL s responsibility to fund research for d o and if it is, why not other issues?
Joe, I don't think it is the NFL's responsibility. Anymore than it is the responsibility of any employer. But unlike other employers, they are making public pronouncements about it - and acting as though "firing" an employee makes them "tough on domestic violence" and I just think that is very simplistic - and I don't think they should be given a "pat on the back" as though they are really helping to address domestic violence.
That said, do we really need a half page of Josh Brown posts? Does everyone need to have their own thread to express their anger? People want to vent, but can't it be done on the one or two threads that revealed the new, vile and devastating information.
baadbill, I'm not dissing your thread, it seems to be a reasonable post and different content than the other rants against Brown. I would just like to see something other than Josh Brown.
That said, I do think their is an unfortunate tendency to self-righteousness on BBI and in society in general.
How many of you dads have jacked off to porn while your daughters are sleeping a few doors away?
How many with older daughters have noticed one of their daughter's hot friends and maybe snuck an extra glance at her or even had masturbatory fantasies?
That's disgusting behavior. But we all know there are lots of men who do it. We are not perfect creatures. Far from it. I condemn the Giants for their role in this saga and I hope Josh Brown gets the help he needs and learns not to abuse women.
But I would ask everyone to think about the most shameful things he or she has done before hailing fire and brimstone at others.
That said, I do think their is an unfortunate tendency to self-righteousness on BBI and in society in general.
How many of you dads have jacked off to porn while your daughters are sleeping a few doors away?
Looking at beautiful girls/women is one thing. Regardless of one's feelings about the human nature of looking and appreciating what they see, you don't act on it. Ever. Have all the fantasies you want, they don't hurt anyone, just keep your hands off and treat them all with the respect they deserve.
How many with older daughters have noticed one of their daughter's hot friends and maybe snuck an extra glance at her or even had masturbatory fantasies?
That's disgusting behavior. But we all know there are lots of men who do it. We are not perfect creatures. Far from it. I condemn the Giants for their role in this saga and I hope Josh Brown gets the help he needs and learns not to abuse women.
But I would ask everyone to think about the most shameful things he or she has done before hailing fire and brimstone at others.
How many with older daughters have noticed one of their daughter's hot friends and maybe snuck an extra glance at her or even had masturbatory fantasies?
Point being, moments of anger are not necessarily domestic abuse. The bruises on her wrist, etc., on the other hand, speak volumes.
This bothers me. There are many women who bruise at the slightest bump. My wife being one of those people. She can bump the kitchen counter and will end up with a bruise. Bruises are not an indication that domestic abuse truly exists. It is merely an indicator of the potential that it exists.
How many with older daughters have noticed one of their daughter's hot friends and maybe snuck an extra glance at her or even had masturbatory fantasies?
Shit, this part was Vanzetti's, not mine: "How many with older daughters have noticed one of their daughter's hot friends and maybe snuck an extra glance at her or even had masturbatory fantasies?"
THIS IS MY TOTAL POST, NOTHING ELSE.
Looking at beautiful girls/women is one thing. Regardless of one's feelings about the human nature of looking and appreciating what they see, you don't act on it. Ever. Have all the fantasies you want, they don't hurt anyone, just keep your hands off and treat them all with the respect they deserve.
For some reason it's not acceptable to categorically condemn Josh Brown's actions, yet simultaneously understand that there is a human being there. A person likely with an array of unbalanced chemicals firing off at the wrong times. A person likely suffering from insurmountable regret, embarrassment and shame.
I feel silly even saying "Josh Brown was wrong and deserves to be punished for his actions," because no shit. You never suggested otherwise in your other thread. All this is, and all that thread was is taking a a deeper look at Brown's terrible flaw(s) and acknowledging with the idea he clearly has some terrible demons.
It's flat out lazy to call Josh Brown a scumbag. He may be, but to use your word the indignation and outrage coming from people who likely don't know the first thing about domestic violence and mental health can be frustrating to read. You said it better than I, but trying to understand a man and not cast off label when you don't even know what you're labeling is ignorant. And that's what tends to happen here.
Josh Brown needs help. I hope he gets it, and of course, I hope this woman finds a way to recover from what she's endured.
We as men all battle anger issues sometimes we loose that battle the issue of bullies in schools has become big time. However in my school days that bully was in many ways considered "He is a bad man", did we do anything to stop him? It only takes a few dumb minutes in life to change your future due to a tragedy involved with loss of anger. We are all crying Brown is a bad guy but let's not forget he is not the only person battling with demons out there in this world. Don't forget him, her & we are human to and subject to perform acts that's bring shame to mankind. Brown is the hot topic this week but it won't be the last hot topic for long.
I don't think they were aware of the extent of the abuse
and unfortunately it's a PR Nightmare .
Lots of blame to go around and it's obvious Brown not only
has a drinking problem and a temper problem .
I doubt that Brown got help on his own probably at some
point in time the courts forced him to get treatment .
I don't think the Giants burried there heads in the sand either . I feel bad for his wife I have seen many times
in my life woman in an abusive relationship seem to have
a difficult time in realizing the severity and do take
more than they should when children are involved .
For me to sit here and call anyone names about it isn't
gonna help anyone .
Hopefully she gets her life back together and Brown do the
same . He most likely will be black balled like Ray Rice
did . The NFL under Goodell STINKS .
This is rich coming from a dude on multiple occasions referring to a female as slut and insinuating that she only got her job by getting down on her knees on a public forum just because she got you upset on a damn football game. But go on and tell us how outraged you are and how you're such a respectful person with regards to females.
Link - ( New Window )
And it's a shame that the majority of BBI won't see it for what is.
For some reason it's not acceptable to categorically condemn Josh Brown's actions, yet simultaneously understand that there is a human being there.
The problem I'm having here is some are trying to stay aware that there is a human being there because he is/was New York Giant, when we didn't have that same awareness with other players from other teams (not saying that is what you personally are doing). Doing so only in this situation shows me what is a little more important to the story here. It's more about the uniform than it is the crime.
Quote:
Mike in Long Beach : 10/22/2016 7:19 pm : link : reply
And it's a shame that the majority of BBI won't see it for what is.
For some reason it's not acceptable to categorically condemn Josh Brown's actions, yet simultaneously understand that there is a human being there.
The problem I'm having here is some are trying to stay aware that there is a human being there because he is/was New York Giant, when we didn't have that same awareness with other players from other teams (not saying that is what you personally are doing). Doing so only in this situation shows me what is a little more important to the story here. It's more about the uniform than it is the crime.
I wonder how many were willing to do the same for Greg Hardy or any other non-Giants players.
Quote:
Mike in Long Beach : 10/22/2016 7:19 pm : link : reply
And it's a shame that the majority of BBI won't see it for what is.
For some reason it's not acceptable to categorically condemn Josh Brown's actions, yet simultaneously understand that there is a human being there.
The problem I'm having here is some are trying to stay aware that there is a human being there because he is/was New York Giant, when we didn't have that same awareness with other players from other teams (not saying that is what you personally are doing). Doing so only in this situation shows me what is a little more important to the story here. It's more about the uniform than it is the crime.
I have a completely different take on that, Filthy. I'd even say people are going out of the way to be particularly hard on him to prove "Hey, I'm not an asshole who will support the Giants in anything."
And it's a bullshit take of course, because they're doing it with a kicker; a position that is (relatively) easily replaceable and the Giants can move on from. And that's why I agree with the OP. The self righteousness isn't even coming from a sincere place. The whole reaction here as struck me as meaningless internet posturing. No real attempt to have a meaningful dialogue from many.