Is the main issue. Primarily in the playcalling.
1) It is infuriating how they cant get a run game going out of the pass. Threaten then with slants, digs, flys and seams until they loosen up the box and then run the ball out of the gun. It can work (especially with really no blocking TE and a hurt FB), it just has to be deceiving. If we start connecting on those short to mid passes and occasionally throw it deep to our wide outs, that run game will open up with us threatening secondaries with receivers who can move the ball long distances.
2) Eli has to remember how to sell playaction. He stinks selling the draw. I cant remember a good counter by this team since maybe last year. Eli's play fakes also look half-assed. I dont know if hes gotten lazy or the new system is fucking with him. But that is fixable and is definitely on Eli (yes dep, he has looked piss poor in this regard for this whole year) as he has yet to play a game we expect of him.
3) O Line looked really good against a good front. The Giants running problems arent really with the OL, it is with the SCHEME! The OL did its job. Wasn't a play that stood out where an OL really looked outmatched physically. BUT WHEN YOU RUN WITH 5 DOWN LINEMAN, NO BLOCKING TEs, NO FULLBACK AND ON PLAYS WHERE THEY EXPECT YOU TO RUN YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE THE BATTLE EVEN WITH JEROME BETTIS, CURTIS MARTIN OR LATER YEARS TIKI AS YOUR BACK!!!!! It is impossible. Hart was more than solid to very solid. Jerry (calling the troll....this was your game) was blocking with belligerence and was extremely thorough. Pugh was fantastic as always. Flowers has quietly become a Harrier rigged with a barricade in the last 2 games. Richburg while underwhelming didnt become Dallas what's his face from two years back. He held his blocks and moved ok. Nothing to get up in arms over. Jerry was the star today IMO. The pocket was clean the entire game against a good front. But asking 5 linemen to open holes against Aaron Donald and that line, the linebackers and safeties with no scheming is tough. So why insist on calling those plays? Why not throw to set up the run? Thats what Belichick does.
4) We have something in Landon Collins. He is leading the team in sacks. He is iffy in coverage. Blitz him more. He plays like Brian Dawkins but he is better at diagnosing the run. His blitzes are awesome. We really arent losing much in coverage by him rushing the passer. In addition to our pass rush being the worst in the league, his blitzing and covering the second level as opposed to deep opens up his faking the blitz and another LB coming like Casillas or Robinson. He, Snacks and Jenkins are our playmakers on D and we need to let them do what they do.
The scheming needs to change to fit our personnel. We need to pass to set up the run. We need to throw Odell the ball more. We need to call less east west plays like having Beckham in the backfield ONCE and then throwing him a pass that lost us four yards because our receivers couldnt block...that's fucking stupid. We need to open these schmootzy plays by throwing more and as the standard attack. We also need a LOT less Donnell. I have never seen a player where I said "DON'T THROW IT TO HIM" not because I thought he would drop the ball, but because I thought he would drop it, kick himself in the face with it and head butt it to the fastest player on the other team. Yes, he has a purpose: inside the 30 as a seam or corner threat. Otherwise, he is not a TE.
On D we still look okay. We definitely need to blitz Lando more. Guy is like a heavy Antrel. I think we should blitz DRC more too. Him off the edge is very difficult on CBs.
Ive said it for weeks now. This is a very poorly coached team. The players are playing pretty well save for Eli and a few drops. But the main thing holding this team back from at least a home playoff game are the button pushers. Eli needs to be better but the coaching for this team has dropped the ball big time.
Thanks chris!
Only it makes the assumption that full time people with dozens of assistants and huge data bases at their disposal don't see the same thing.
I'm not knocking you, but aren't we all simplistic.? Don't we rely on our perceptions dimly remembered from our senior year at Smallsville High when clearasal was the creme de jour? In short, this has become the most esoteric of sports where every play is reviewed and tendency charts are measured in terms of gega / mega bits.
This is not even baseball where the second quess and the benefit of hindsight have a small slice of validity.
It is clearly part of the attraction of the sport: this ability to review a game and feel "smart".
Thing is I agree with you, but I know at some level that people who know much more than me are looking at this fult time and that there's something else going on.
I've been under the impression that everyone knows we have no running game. So, beginning with that premise... that defenses are just not anticipating the run from us.
Bingo
Another example: Eli has to remember how to sell play action .
How do you sell play action without a running threat?
Last year's offense with this years defense probably wins at least 4 more games.
This year's offense, on paper, is more talented. They're missing a fullback, and there is maybe a slight downgrade at RT (not much), but other than that...
Just difficult to undertstand what's going on.
2015 & 16 through 7 games
2015: 168-270 1776 62.2% 6.57 YPA 11-4 Td/int
2016: 175-270 1984 64.8% 7.35 YPA 8-6 td/int
rushing offense:
2015: 175-659 3.76
2016: 147-492 3.34
numbers are very similar, were 4-3 (probably should have been 5-2)
Why has the offense scored 4.5 less points per game
Last year's offense with this years defense probably wins at least 4 more games.
This year's offense, on paper, is more talented. They're missing a fullback, and there is maybe a slight downgrade at RT (not much), but other than that...
Just difficult to understand what's going on.
Jerry 2016 is much better than Jerry 2015. RT - Hart is better than Newhouse (not much, just better). Yep against Green Bay he was bad, but his run blocking is better than Newhouse.
Last year Tye was good in the seam. Why is he not being used like that this year? Has he regressed? He did "miss" the bomb against Wash(?), but he was open. You don't stop throwing to OBJ or VC when they have a drop.
Last year's offense with this years defense probably wins at least 4 more games.
This year's offense, on paper, is more talented. They're missing a fullback, and there is maybe a slight downgrade at RT (not much), but other than that...
Just difficult to undertstand what's going on.
Flowers blows ass. Richburg isn't playing as well. Donnell is a complete liability this year, and without a FB, they're in the shotgun seemingly all game. On the radio yesterday, I heard the LA D yelling draw on a few occasions. And, sure enough...Every opponent is sticking with that 2 deep shell knowing that if they take away the Odell big play, we can't run it and we can't stress the LB's with any of our TE's. This OL isn't good enough to consistently go 80 yards in 8-10 plays because they're constantly in 2nd and 8 or 2nd and 9. This is exactly what I meant when I said all summer and spring how this OL could hold back the entire team and unfortunately it's come to fruition. Reese, or whomever is GM next spring, is going to have to invest premium assets into the OL because it continues to be one of the worst units in football.
At the half McAdoo was asked about failures in the running game and his response was, we need more attempts, or something to that affect. So basically the running game has been horrible for years, has sucked all year, is not working, and his answer is to do MORE of it???
This guy is more stubborn than TC, and clueless on top.
The only way to run the ball is to get something going with the pass and then once the defense is on their heels you can throw in some runs. They way they are doing it now, we are giving ourselves 2 plays to make a 1st while our opponents get 3.
This guy is out of his mind to think the running game does anything but piss away a down.
you knew turnovers would come .. no team goes the whole year without some.
as far as offense
right now our offense is too vanilla and predictable -
it is obvious to me that mcadoo is HC and SHOULD NOT BE CALLING THE PLAYS.
He has too much on his plate during the games - so naturally he isn't going to be so creative or innovative - -
he is overwhelmed with everything else he needs to deal with on the sidelines
I think we are very lucky even to be 4-3. The defense has been very much improved but everything else McAdoo is supposed to control or manage looks to be a giant mess no pun intended.
I think we are very lucky even to be 4-3. The defense has been very much improved but everything else McAdoo is supposed to control or manage looks to be a giant mess no pun intended.
OK, so we made a mistake in hiring McAdoo yet we are only 2 wins away from matching our last 2 years wins total.
they also need to work on 3rd and 1 situations - 20 yard tosses down the field are not appropriate.
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In hiring McAdoo. I agree it was time to move on from Coughlin as HC but promoting McAdoo into the role I was a bit skeptical about.
I think we are very lucky even to be 4-3. The defense has been very much improved but everything else McAdoo is supposed to control or manage looks to be a giant mess no pun intended.
OK, so we made a mistake in hiring McAdoo yet we are only 2 wins away from matching our last 2 years wins total.
We blew 5 games last year in the 4th quarter under 2 mins. Offense failed in some key spots in games to manage clock or run plays. It wasn't just defense.
Last I checked McAdoo was on last years staff as OC or did you suffer amnesia just now????
The other issue with the offense yesterday was the inability of the WRs to make a play after the catch. As highlighted pre-game, the Rams blitz the 2nd most in the NFL and consistently showed 5-6 guys at the LOS. Giants tried to beat that with some quick throws to the WRs in the flats, but outside of 1 play by Cruz, the Giants WRs failed to make anyone miss in these 1v1 situations against the DBs. The Giants got the ball to their playmakers (Beckham, Shepard, and Cruz) but their playmakers failed to make any plays. Credit the Rams D for some great open field tackling, but if the Giants WRs break a couple of those, they could've gone for big gains.
That was the right play in the situation. Another example of failed execution though. Beckham had good separation, but it was a poor throw (to say the least) from Eli. A good throw and Beckham might even be able to turn the corner and score.
Plus, with a bootleg if Beckham wasn't open, Eli could safely eat it or try and run for it himself.
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In hiring McAdoo. I agree it was time to move on from Coughlin as HC but promoting McAdoo into the role I was a bit skeptical about.
I think we are very lucky even to be 4-3. The defense has been very much improved but everything else McAdoo is supposed to control or manage looks to be a giant mess no pun intended.
OK, so we made a mistake in hiring McAdoo yet we are only 2 wins away from matching our last 2 years wins total.
Not for nothing, but the 2015 team was sitting at 4-3 this time last year as well.
We've had a much harder road thus far. These teams could normalize by the end of the year and look the same as what we faced the first half of 2015, but right now it looks like we had much more difficult opposition in the early going than last year.
the same plays over and over . Every time we get a 1st down or start a drive Its almost a guarantee we run off tackle left.
Rarely do we even gain positive yardage . Not Only that
Eli looks robotic in handing the ball off he does nothing
to make the defense think otherwise . He just takes 3
steps with his one arm extended out by the time he
telegraphs the play . The defense is swarming to the spot.
The lob to OBJ 25 yards down the field when we needed
what 2-3 yards . Then again the roll out play here we go
not playing to Eli's strengths with three to four formation
moves a complicated blocking scheme . So many things had
to go right for this play to have a chance .
Then throw to OBJ who is enjoying double to triple coverage
and most of the pass plays are outside the hash marks .
Little use of the screen pass . Over use of Jennings
although the one nice screen they had was to Jennings .
The offense is basically broke and the Coach is in over
his head .
I'm not in love with the play-calling or coaching so to speak but it's hard to kill Mcadoo just yet. They are 4-3. When the offense needed to explode against the Ravens it did. They didn't have to explode yesterday.
The Giants have had one bad game thus far--the loss to the Skins and they have had one great win - at dallas. They have pretty much held serve through 7 games.
Two weeks is huge. IF the Giants can somehow pull out a win against Philly it virtually would validate the first half of this season for the Giants. Lose and the questions and concerns mount.
There's things to like and dislike this season but if the Giants want to slog their way through this season and scratch and ugly their way to 10 wins sign me the fuck up. McAdoo doesn't need style points, he just needs to win. I get the concern, but let's see how this team navigates through this season. There's nothing wrong with any so called predictable nature if the team wins.
Shut your stupid, sucky piehole?
The OTs on this team are young. Hopefully they improve as the year progresses I know I am not allowed to cautiously expect that around here. God forbid a young OT gets better.
From what I've seen, the offense has been most productive when running the hurry up.
If that's the case, what does that tell you?
They did run the ball effectively earlier in the season too. The schedule changes here over the second half and the Giants are kinda healthy, certainly not in terrible shape. I'm kinda curious here to see what this team can do.
I mean at one point we had OBJ and 2 street FA's at WR last season. We had a worse offensive line and shittier RB's. So how we were able to be in the top 10 in offense last season, and yet this year we can't do anything?
I don't think he's in over his head calling plays, I think he's building this offense over even though it's the same one. This is a new WR coach, new OL coach, which means they have to learn/re-learn the system and install it as they learn it. We've seen fits and starts on the ground and in pass protection all year, from the truly dreadful (Green Bay) to the downright promising (Flowers vs. Everson Griffin). We keep seeing little mistakes, fumbles, drops, passes off target, so why on earth would we "open up" the offense if we can't master the basics? A coach won't just start adding more complex or diverse plays if a team can't handle the basics and so far we have not.
The reason I'm not terribly worried despite largely the same OL and QB from a year ago is that we have Victor Cruz learning his way back, and rookies in Sterling Sheppard and Roger Lewis who are new to this scheme as well. We have Jennings and Darkwa back but Perkins and Rainey are new as well as is Jerrell Adams. I think we'll slowly see more Perkins, More Lewis, more Adams, more Rainey and the offense coming together albeit slowly. Remember, this team struggled on offense at times in 2007 and by the time Boss and Bradshaw and Smith were ready (week 12ish) we kicked into another gear. The running game was abysmal until Bradshaw really got his chance and shored up his pass blocking.
We could be on a similar blue print this season, I wouldn't be shocked to see Reese trying to duplicate what worked back then. He has some of the same types of pieces they just need to mature and blend in.
Yeah but that was a horrible situation to call that play. And yes it didn't fool anyone.
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I'll pick just one example: Brian Dawkins was very good vs the pass.
Bingo
Another example: Eli has to remember how to sell play action .
How do you sell play action without a running threat?
When he runs playaction, he doesnt actually sell the run fake anymore. He used to. Ive noticed it for a couple of weeks where he runs the play barely gestures toward the RB as he goes into his drop. Yes, you still sell the play if its called.
They try to use Donnell and Tye as H-backs but they often whiff on the LBer, leading to penetration. Or they get stood up, clogging the hole.
The only other option is pulling Pugh, which they have done a few times but without that much success.
So, if you can't block the LBers and you are not freezing them with deception, how can you possibly run the ball?
McAdoo has tried all sorts of deception but it has not really worked. Opposing teams have the Giants tendencies down. So Mac has to mix it up and throw a lot more on first down, even though that understandably is not his preference. Given the competitive level of the division, Giants can not risk losing a game because they are trying to establish the run.
I don't think he's in over his head calling plays, I think he's building this offense over even though it's the same one. This is a new WR coach, new OL coach, which means they have to learn/re-learn the system and install it as they learn it. We've seen fits and starts on the ground and in pass protection all year, from the truly dreadful (Green Bay) to the downright promising (Flowers vs. Everson Griffin). We keep seeing little mistakes, fumbles, drops, passes off target, so why on earth would we "open up" the offense if we can't master the basics? A coach won't just start adding more complex or diverse plays if a team can't handle the basics and so far we have not.
The reason I'm not terribly worried despite largely the same OL and QB from a year ago is that we have Victor Cruz learning his way back, and rookies in Sterling Sheppard and Roger Lewis who are new to this scheme as well. We have Jennings and Darkwa back but Perkins and Rainey are new as well as is Jerrell Adams. I think we'll slowly see more Perkins, More Lewis, more Adams, more Rainey and the offense coming together albeit slowly. Remember, this team struggled on offense at times in 2007 and by the time Boss and Bradshaw and Smith were ready (week 12ish) we kicked into another gear. The running game was abysmal until Bradshaw really got his chance and shored up his pass blocking.
We could be on a similar blue print this season, I wouldn't be shocked to see Reese trying to duplicate what worked back then. He has some of the same types of pieces they just need to mature and blend in.
Joey, I guess that might be. But its not like we get up by 10/14 and then just hold serve. We started at the 1 or 2 yard line and the play calling there almost cost us points when we called for a little dump off to the running back who was 2 yards deep in the end zone with Ogletree coming hard.
That we cant load up and run the ball on 3rd or one or two is fucking infuriating to me. Donnell consistently loses at the POA. he literally gets rag dolled every running play. I understand he trying to build towards a new philosophy, but the fact that he cant put a jumbo package of any kind to get 1 yard of push is frustrating. Its alsways a 5 or 6 man line and our guy generally runs into linemen's backs.
I don't think he's in over his head calling plays, I think he's building this offense over even though it's the same one. This is a new WR coach, new OL coach, which means they have to learn/re-learn the system and install it as they learn it. We've seen fits and starts on the ground and in pass protection all year, from the truly dreadful (Green Bay) to the downright promising (Flowers vs. Everson Griffin). We keep seeing little mistakes, fumbles, drops, passes off target, so why on earth would we "open up" the offense if we can't master the basics? A coach won't just start adding more complex or diverse plays if a team can't handle the basics and so far we have not.
The reason I'm not terribly worried despite largely the same OL and QB from a year ago is that we have Victor Cruz learning his way back, and rookies in Sterling Sheppard and Roger Lewis who are new to this scheme as well. We have Jennings and Darkwa back but Perkins and Rainey are new as well as is Jerrell Adams. I think we'll slowly see more Perkins, More Lewis, more Adams, more Rainey and the offense coming together albeit slowly. Remember, this team struggled on offense at times in 2007 and by the time Boss and Bradshaw and Smith were ready (week 12ish) we kicked into another gear. The running game was abysmal until Bradshaw really got his chance and shored up his pass blocking.
We could be on a similar blue print this season, I wouldn't be shocked to see Reese trying to duplicate what worked back then. He has some of the same types of pieces they just need to mature and blend in.
DEAD On
Bravo Joey post of the WEEK.
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And have had this feeling all season so far that McAdoo is that old style of coach who does what he needs on offense, nothing more. I think the similarity in plays over and over is to get those plays down cold before he moves to more things. It's a way to build an offense and a team and it can take a long time, half a season or more to get where you want to go.
I don't think he's in over his head calling plays, I think he's building this offense over even though it's the same one. This is a new WR coach, new OL coach, which means they have to learn/re-learn the system and install it as they learn it. We've seen fits and starts on the ground and in pass protection all year, from the truly dreadful (Green Bay) to the downright promising (Flowers vs. Everson Griffin). We keep seeing little mistakes, fumbles, drops, passes off target, so why on earth would we "open up" the offense if we can't master the basics? A coach won't just start adding more complex or diverse plays if a team can't handle the basics and so far we have not.
The reason I'm not terribly worried despite largely the same OL and QB from a year ago is that we have Victor Cruz learning his way back, and rookies in Sterling Sheppard and Roger Lewis who are new to this scheme as well. We have Jennings and Darkwa back but Perkins and Rainey are new as well as is Jerrell Adams. I think we'll slowly see more Perkins, More Lewis, more Adams, more Rainey and the offense coming together albeit slowly. Remember, this team struggled on offense at times in 2007 and by the time Boss and Bradshaw and Smith were ready (week 12ish) we kicked into another gear. The running game was abysmal until Bradshaw really got his chance and shored up his pass blocking.
We could be on a similar blue print this season, I wouldn't be shocked to see Reese trying to duplicate what worked back then. He has some of the same types of pieces they just need to mature and blend in.
Joey, I guess that might be. But its not like we get up by 10/14 and then just hold serve. We started at the 1 or 2 yard line and the play calling there almost cost us points when we called for a little dump off to the running back who was 2 yards deep in the end zone with Ogletree coming hard.
That we cant load up and run the ball on 3rd or one or two is fucking infuriating to me. Donnell consistently loses at the POA. he literally gets rag dolled every running play. I understand he trying to build towards a new philosophy, but the fact that he cant put a jumbo package of any kind to get 1 yard of push is frustrating. Its alsways a 5 or 6 man line and our guy generally runs into linemen's backs.
I think he's building this team in his way and Solari will be a key to getting this running game going. I have faith in him and faith in McAdoo to get it right, I just think with such limited practice time it will be longer than we'd like. He has the OL coach with the experience in this offense and this type of running game, so it's really new now that TC is gone and this is 100% McAdoo's running game. It started working late last year and I think we'll see the same thing, it's about timing, confidence and repetition and if he abandons it completely #1 is out the window. Look, I'm frustrated as all get out watching the offense bumble around but what he's doing makes sense to me X and O wise and long term season wise. I've been on teams that shat the bed on simple plays and players begged for new stuff to do but the answer was the same. Why would I give you harder assignments when you can't master the basics? It's like learning math, you can't skip addition and subtraction and jump to geometry or long division because it won't make a bit of sense. Football is the same way, you learn and master basics, then you add more complexity and this is really year 1 for a lot of these guys as I mentioned.
.
It was surprising that they were able to run the ball into the ends zone but it was far from impressive...
So on a 3rd and 8 you would call a 2 yard drag to your TE, or dump off to your RBs? On 1st and goal at the 3 or virtually any run on 1st down you would call up a 3 WR formation and try to run it that way? You woukd never throw Beatty out there as an extra TE and Jones as a FB and try and just get your back to the 2nd level? Well then this offense is for you.
Face it. This offense is very incomsistent and the problem is with the coaches philosophy.
2015 & 16 through 7 games
2015: 168-270 1776 62.2% 6.57 YPA 11-4 Td/int
2016: 175-270 1984 64.8% 7.35 YPA 8-6 td/int
rushing offense:
2015: 175-659 3.76
2016: 147-492 3.34
numbers are very similar, were 4-3 (probably should have been 5-2)
Why has the offense scored 4.5 less points per game
My guess is penalties...they have killed a lot of potential scoring drives.
2015 & 16 through 7 games
2015: 168-270 1776 62.2% 6.57 YPA 11-4 Td/int
2016: 175-270 1984 64.8% 7.35 YPA 8-6 td/int
rushing offense:
2015: 175-659 3.76
2016: 147-492 3.34
numbers are very similar, were 4-3 (probably should have been 5-2)
Why has the offense scored 4.5 less points per game
Assuming these numbers are correct, a pretty excellent post that most have ignored.
Quote:
Here are interesting numbers with Eli and offense:
2015 & 16 through 7 games
2015: 168-270 1776 62.2% 6.57 YPA 11-4 Td/int
2016: 175-270 1984 64.8% 7.35 YPA 8-6 td/int
rushing offense:
2015: 175-659 3.76
2016: 147-492 3.34
numbers are very similar, were 4-3 (probably should have been 5-2)
Why has the offense scored 4.5 less points per game
Assuming these numbers are correct, a pretty excellent post that most have ignored.
It was a pretty good post, but I am assuming the poster is insinuating that our offense isnt much worse than last year statistically. Well, that may be true, but if people think that this offense looks as good as last year's and that it has the same rhythm based on the numbers, I have to disagree. Especially because of the new additions we added.
Quote:
I disagree with most of everything posted above. One problem is execution. Now this something that can be corrected and hope it is before the season is over.
So on a 3rd and 8 you would call a 2 yard drag to your TE, or dump off to your RBs? On 1st and goal at the 3 or virtually any run on 1st down you would call up a 3 WR formation and try to run it that way? You woukd never throw Beatty out there as an extra TE and Jones as a FB and try and just get your back to the 2nd level? Well then this offense is for you.
Face it. This offense is very incomsistent and the problem is with the coaches philosophy.
Do you find the play calling a problem just this season? How about last season or the last 10 seasons?
That's based on nothing but looking at the sack numbers right?
With the worst pass rush in the league, according to you a liability in the pass game at S in Collins, several injuries at CB and S, this team is ranked what in passer rating, completion %, and points allowed?
We didn't get there with the worst pass rush in the NFL. QB pressures are guys making plays. The Giants DEs are doing that and forcing throws. It makes an impact without the sack numbers.
Quote:
In comment 13188497 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Here are interesting numbers with Eli and offense:
2015 & 16 through 7 games
2015: 168-270 1776 62.2% 6.57 YPA 11-4 Td/int
2016: 175-270 1984 64.8% 7.35 YPA 8-6 td/int
rushing offense:
2015: 175-659 3.76
2016: 147-492 3.34
numbers are very similar, were 4-3 (probably should have been 5-2)
Why has the offense scored 4.5 less points per game
Assuming these numbers are correct, a pretty excellent post that most have ignored.
It was a pretty good post, but I am assuming the poster is insinuating that our offense isnt much worse than last year statistically. Well, that may be true, but if people think that this offense looks as good as last year's and that it has the same rhythm based on the numbers, I have to disagree. Especially because of the new additions we added.
I think overall they are committing a lot of penalties that are killing drives, which is killing the offenses rhythm. Take that into account and a lot of young players having to step up. I'm more concerned about the line looking worse then last year.