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Rewatched the game on NFL Game Pass: Some observations

Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 1:35 pm
I didn't take notes, so I may forget to list some things that I planned on listing. If so, I'll come back to the thread as I remember..

Random order of importance:

-Firstly, I will not discuss the Secondary or our running game as that has been thoroughly covered on here..Nothing more to add to those opinions, other than I did take note of a couple of times we picked up some clutch yardage on the ground to move the chains..Obviously the running game needs to improve a lot

-I had forgotten somehow how many times Eli started inside the 10, certainly the 15 and most definitely inside his own 20..That can be quite limiting. Just sayin'.

-I thought Hart held up well, better than I originally thought

-Cruz is FAR from finished..That spin move was vintage Cruz

-Kennard played really well. Harrison is a beast and Hankins needs to be re-signed so we have this young tandem in tact for years to come

-Vernon APPEARS to be getting his game together and hopefully his wrist will benefit from much needed rest

-Spags deserves some kudos on here as he had us swarming to the ball..The tackling was crisp and consistent throughout and the pressure on Keenum was rather intense, more than I recalled from watching it live..Some here mocked the result because we were lucky to have faced Keenum. I see it differently. I saw a QB who threw 4 INTs because of terrific pressure..You're welcome to disagree..

-Two plays really pissed me off: The 3rd and 22 the Rams converted rather late in the 4th quarter(could be off on the timeframe) very deep in their own territory and the 4th and 10 conversion by Keenum with just a hair over over 2 minutes remaining..

-Wing was very good overall I thought even with a few touchbacks..I think he had 2 inside the 20. Could be wrong on that..

I feel good about this team moving forward and as I said in another thread, if my worst concern is about Eli and this offense getting it together, then I am not all that concerned..

Please correct me on anything I have noted above or feel free to add thoughts of your own..
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BB I agree on most accounts,  
Simms11 : 10/24/2016 2:04 pm : link
however, as mentioned, the Defense still has some problems getting off the field on 3rd downs. We are dead last in the league as far as allowing 3rd down conversions and that's ultimately tiring out the defense in the 4th quarter. The offense still has to do it's part and maybe a better running game will help, but I still have concerns with this offense. Without the big play, we are doomed. We cannot sustain drives without a running game and other teams are forcing us to go the length of the field. Not sure if it will get addressed any better this year, but I hope it does somehow.

Also Wing was money yesterday going head to head with the best punter in the NFC. He helped turn the field position back over a few times and with a team that cannot sustain long drives, he's a welcome sight.
RE: RE: I'll add that JPP....  
BillKo : 10/24/2016 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13189265 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13189259 BillKo said:


Quote:


never dogs it, and is a hustle machine.

The one play he missed a tackle lean the LOS, fell down, and still recovered to run downfield and make the tackle.

He might never get back to the 2011 version, but he does hustle is ass off and give max effort.

Question is, who do we resign? Him or Hankins?



I'm possibly in the minority here, but Hankins would get my vote


It's a close call......I think it's probably certain we can't be both back?

We have more prospects at DE so it very well may be Hankins.
RE: I'll add that JPP....  
Gman11 : 10/24/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13189259 BillKo said:
Quote:
never dogs it, and is a hustle machine.

The one play he missed a tackle lean the LOS, fell down, and still recovered to run downfield and make the tackle.

He might never get back to the 2011 version, but he does hustle is ass off and give max effort.

Question is, who do we resign? Him or Hankins?


You don't pay a guy $10 million for effort. Thanks for the 2011 season, but that's history.
RE: I think Vernon already had his game together,  
Brown Recluse : 10/24/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13189216 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
although hindered just a hair by injury. Sack numbers. Sack numbers is all anyone around here has cared about while doing our best to ignore that he leads the league in QB pressures.


So he's just a slow poke?
can't agree about the tackling  
Vanzetti : 10/24/2016 2:15 pm : link
Last game was better but there have been a ton of missed tackles this year. DRC we know about and given his coverage skills, I have no problem with the way he backs off sometimes. But Casillas has missed a bunch of tackles. Guys don't wrap up. Tackling needs to be better.
RE: Cruz isnt finished  
section125 : 10/24/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13189256 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
But after that move he had no burst up the sideline and didnt even attempt to make the next defender miss.


Cruz, even in his hayday would often take a knee or go OB when the DBs had the advantage. I semi-agree on the burst - but I wonder if the turf had something to do with it. He sure looked quick as heck in the NO game with the sideline route he fumbled on.
'I saw a QB who threw 4 INTs because of terrific pressure'  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 2:19 pm : link
Anyone who disagrees with that was watching a different game.
RE: I think Vernon already had his game together,  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13189216 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
although hindered just a hair by injury. Sack numbers. Sack numbers is all anyone around here has cared about while doing our best to ignore that he leads the league in QB pressures.


He's played better than his 'numbers' so far, but I thought yesterday was his best game:

- Drew a holding that negated a 25+ yard pickup
- Quick pressure that forced Keenum to step into the Bromley sack
- Quick pressure forcing one of the INTs (2nd Collins one?)
- Pressure/forced fumble, unfortunately a lucky bounce for Keenum

And was strong against the run as usual.

The miscommunication on the final play was also partly due to the quick pressure they were getting all day. Keenum knew he'd have no time (and even then he barely got rid of it before JPP hit him).
RE: can't agree about the tackling  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13189299 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Last game was better but there have been a ton of missed tackles this year. DRC we know about and given his coverage skills, I have no problem with the way he backs off sometimes. But Casillas has missed a bunch of tackles. Guys don't wrap up. Tackling needs to be better.


I agree there. The tackling is better than last season and Collins sticks everything, but overall I think it can still improve. Just look at the Rams tackling yesterday. How many 1v1 opportunities did our WRs have against their DBs yesterday? And the only play I recall our WRs 'winning' was the big one to Cruz. On the rest of them, the first Ram their either brought the WR down slowed him down enough that the next guy did with minimal extra yardage.

If there's one area where Shepard has disappointed, it's after the catch. He had a few chances yesterday to make a play with the ball in his hands and couldn't.
RE: Our defense is playing pretty well.  
gmenatlarge : 10/24/2016 2:27 pm : link
In comment 13189229 Jerry K said:
Quote:
BUT.... we are last in the league in the number of 3rd down conversions per game allowed.

and oh yeah, bench Donnell
Agree Mostly  
Jeffrey : 10/24/2016 2:59 pm : link
Defense is getting better as it gets healthier, but the first six weeks show how slim the margin is with a real gap in the secondary between starters and back-ups.

Happy to see JPP and Vernon taken out of the game a little even if there is a drop off in talent. They cannot last at the rate being used.

The return of Apple and DRC seems to have given Spags more confidence to use the blitz.

However, Eli is not a little worry. His inconsistency has always been there as has his tendency to make some terrible decisions when trying to avoid a sack, but in the good years he had a running game to offset some of his bad days. Now there is no room for a bad half or bad game. When he is throwing poorly the team is destined for 3 and out and the defense is on the field too much. No one should lose sight of the fact that the Rams are not a good offense and only an average defense. Yet, the Giants struggled to the end.
I had read that Gould was in effect kinda shitty (or possibly a  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 3:29 pm : link
lot shitty). Since Kickers are cyclical and can bounce back on a dime (assuming there are no physical problems) I'm hoping this is his bounce back cycle. He doesn't appear to have Brown's leg on KOs, but that could serve as an advantage to us as the season progresses. If our coverage team can do their job, his short KOs could leave the opposition with field position short of the 25..
RE: I had read that Gould was in effect kinda shitty (or possibly a  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 3:35 pm : link
In comment 13189422 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
lot shitty). Since Kickers are cyclical and can bounce back on a dime (assuming there are no physical problems) I'm hoping this is his bounce back cycle. He doesn't appear to have Brown's leg on KOs, but that could serve as an advantage to us as the season progresses. If our coverage team can do their job, his short KOs could leave the opposition with field position short of the 25..


We're going to find out in 2 weeks. Eagles KR game is outstanding (back-to-back weeks with scores by different players, Smallwood and Huff).
Cruz had a nice game  
David in LA : 10/24/2016 3:35 pm : link
but I don't know how you can watch him this year and talk yourself into believing he's remotely even close to the same guy he was before. Cruz made his money off of YAC. He's no longer a guy you have to account for IMO.
RE: Cruz had a nice game  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13189436 David in LA said:
Quote:
but I don't know how you can watch him this year and talk yourself into believing he's remotely even close to the same guy he was before. Cruz made his money off of YAC. He's no longer a guy you have to account for IMO.


Doesn't have to be. If he can have games like yesterday, I'll be happy..Agree, not what he was, but, imho, he's far from done as a good contributor..
I prefer solid to good contributor  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 3:42 pm : link
.
Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 3:46 pm : link
can't keep dropping easy completions.
You specifically said vintage Cruz  
David in LA : 10/24/2016 3:47 pm : link
I didn't say he wasn't useful, but he's not someone that keeps DC's up at night anymore.
RE: You specifically said vintage Cruz  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 3:50 pm : link
In comment 13189458 David in LA said:
Quote:
I didn't say he wasn't useful, but he's not someone that keeps DC's up at night anymore.


I said his "spin move" was vintage Cruz
RE: Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 3:51 pm : link
In comment 13189456 giants#1 said:
Quote:
can't keep dropping easy completions.


Agreed, but even in his prime, he dropped some. Didn't really matter all that much given his uncanny production, imv
RE: RE: Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
David in LA : 10/24/2016 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13189465 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13189456 giants#1 said:


Quote:


can't keep dropping easy completions.



Agreed, but even in his prime, he dropped some. Didn't really matter all that much given his uncanny production, imv


Those drops were tolerated in his prime, because he could make plays happen once he gets the ball.
3rd and 22  
area junc : 10/24/2016 4:03 pm : link
Rams did a good job quick-snapping it looked like we weren't lined up yet. i was disgusted at us for that.
RE: RE: RE: Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
section125 : 10/24/2016 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13189472 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13189465 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13189456 giants#1 said:


Quote:


can't keep dropping easy completions.



Agreed, but even in his prime, he dropped some. Didn't really matter all that much given his uncanny production, imv



Those drops were tolerated in his prime, because he could make plays happen once he gets the ball.


Meh, if Cruz is playing, he is going to have some drops like yesterday. It is his M.O. He still tries to run before he catches the ball. Almost like Eli needs to slap his head before the game and remind him to catch it first. Seems that once the drop happens, then he's ok.
But I will remind all again, he was never a burner. He could maintain his separation most of the time, but he'd still get caught by the faster DBs. The spin yesterday was vintage Cruz which is more important than his top end speed.
Also  
antdog24 : 10/24/2016 4:11 pm : link
the conditioning of the players, particularly on defense... They are playing long stretches with the offense going 3 and out most drives. They surprisingly don't look gassed at the end of the game like we are used to seeing in previous years. Maybe Aaron Wellman is on to something...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
giants#1 : 10/24/2016 4:16 pm : link
In comment 13189491 section125 said:
Quote:


Meh, if Cruz is playing, he is going to have some drops like yesterday. It is his M.O. He still tries to run before he catches the ball. Almost like Eli needs to slap his head before the game and remind him to catch it first. Seems that once the drop happens, then he's ok.
But I will remind all again, he was never a burner. He could maintain his separation most of the time, but he'd still get caught by the faster DBs. The spin yesterday was vintage Cruz which is more important than his top end speed.


It's part of his MO, but he really needs to clean it up now that he's more of a possession WR than the big play threat he used to be. Also hurts more because of the inability to run the ball.

In hindsight, the SS pick wasn't ideal for this year at least. Cruz's best position was always the slot because of his ability to read the defense and cut on a dime. With SS getting most of the snaps in the slot, that could be hurting Cruz's productivity some. He was never a guy that was going to run away from CBs.

Of course, part of the reason for taking SS was as Cruz insurance since no one knew if he'd even return to the field at that point.
RE: Also  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13189492 antdog24 said:
Quote:
the conditioning of the players, particularly on defense... They are playing long stretches with the offense going 3 and out most drives. They surprisingly don't look gassed at the end of the game like we are used to seeing in previous years. Maybe Aaron Wellman is on to something...


Hey antdog, good to see you and yes, point taken
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Cruz just needs to make the plays that are there  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 4:20 pm : link
In comment 13189505 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13189491 section125 said:


Quote:




Meh, if Cruz is playing, he is going to have some drops like yesterday. It is his M.O. He still tries to run before he catches the ball. Almost like Eli needs to slap his head before the game and remind him to catch it first. Seems that once the drop happens, then he's ok.
But I will remind all again, he was never a burner. He could maintain his separation most of the time, but he'd still get caught by the faster DBs. The spin yesterday was vintage Cruz which is more important than his top end speed.



It's part of his MO, but he really needs to clean it up now that he's more of a possession WR than the big play threat he used to be. Also hurts more because of the inability to run the ball.

In hindsight, the SS pick wasn't ideal for this year at least. Cruz's best position was always the slot because of his ability to read the defense and cut on a dime. With SS getting most of the snaps in the slot, that could be hurting Cruz's productivity some. He was never a guy that was going to run away from CBs.

Of course, part of the reason for taking SS was as Cruz insurance since no one knew if he'd even return to the field at that point.


Yes and undoubtedly why they took SS..No one knew about Cruz, at least definitively..
Oh, I forgot to mention Romeo Okwara.  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 5:05 pm : link
He seemed to have a few nice pressures
Great OP 56  
shelovesnycsports : 10/24/2016 5:10 pm : link
Nice observations, I am waiting till the all 22 tape comes out tomorrow or weds to see what was happening with the line and the defense alignments they were facing. I saw alot of cover two again.
This is such nonsense...  
Josh in the City : 10/24/2016 5:22 pm : link
Quote:
Cruz is FAR from finished..That spin move was vintage Cruz


It was actually the opposite of vintage Cruz. It was an extremely slow turn that was able to work b/c of the ideal position and momentum of the defender. There was literally not a single physical attribute that was unique to Cruz on that move at all.
Looking at a specific play regarding defensive pressure -  
Diver_Down : 10/24/2016 5:22 pm : link
Watch Collins INT replay, but instead of focusing on the INT, watch Snacks. A split second later and we might have witnessed the start of the Goff era as Snacks looks like he was about to tear off Keenum's arm like a turkey drumstick.
RE: This is such nonsense...  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 5:31 pm : link
In comment 13189610 Josh in the City said:
Quote:


Quote:


Cruz is FAR from finished..That spin move was vintage Cruz



It was actually the opposite of vintage Cruz. It was an extremely slow turn that was able to work b/c of the ideal position and momentum of the defender. There was literally not a single physical attribute that was unique to Cruz on that move at all.


And you would be wrong..We will disagree
RE: Great OP 56  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 5:32 pm : link
In comment 13189598 shelovesnycsports said:
Quote:
Nice observations, I am waiting till the all 22 tape comes out tomorrow or weds to see what was happening with the line and the defense alignments they were facing. I saw alot of cover two again.


Me too
If anyone can reproduce the GIF  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 5:34 pm : link
in real time of Cruz' spin move, I'd appreciate it
Josh, let me re-phrase as there's really no right or wrong,  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 5:36 pm : link
Just an opinion. My opinion is I totally disagree with your take on VC's spin move
the awareness to do the spin move was vintage Cruz  
SHO'NUFF : 10/24/2016 6:35 pm : link
the execution of it seemed a bit slo-mo.
RE: the awareness to do the spin move was vintage Cruz  
Big Blue '56 : 10/24/2016 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13189660 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
the execution of it seemed a bit slo-mo.


You and Josh could be right, but honestly, I didn't see that..I saw quickness. He was never fleet afoot
RE: This is such nonsense...  
section125 : 10/24/2016 6:40 pm : link
In comment 13189610 Josh in the City said:
Quote:


Quote:


Cruz is FAR from finished..That spin move was vintage Cruz



It was actually the opposite of vintage Cruz. It was an extremely slow turn that was able to work b/c of the ideal position and momentum of the defender. There was literally not a single physical attribute that was unique to Cruz on that move at all.



aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

No.
RE: RE: the awareness to do the spin move was vintage Cruz  
SHO'NUFF : 10/24/2016 7:08 pm : link
In comment 13189661 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13189660 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


the execution of it seemed a bit slo-mo.



You and Josh could be right, but honestly, I didn't see that..I saw quickness. He was never fleet afoot


I mean, it wasn't bad. I just didn't see the hard planting of the foot into the ground and quick spin move, basketball-style...it was more of a rounded spin, but it obviously worked to fake the defender out. The acceleration after that move just wasn't there, as well.
1:22 mark  
SHO'NUFF : 10/24/2016 7:49 pm : link
eh, it's not as bad as I thought in real-time...
Giants Rams Highlights - ( New Window )
33 Adams  
eliapple : 10/24/2016 9:24 pm : link
Playing good..getting close to big play
33 Adams  
Jimmy Googs : 10/24/2016 9:42 pm : link
Isn't even close to making a play.

Get in the game man...
he's half right  
SHO'NUFF : 10/24/2016 9:48 pm : link
every time there's a big play, rest assured, 33 Adams is usually involved.
Guys are brutal with this Adams kid. Zero patience.  
Big Blue '56 : 10/25/2016 7:01 am : link
How many snaps in his NFL career? He could turn out to be terrible moving forward, but can we wait a little bit before tar and feathering him? No one said he was close to ready after having been thrown into the fire without regular reps..
My ire comes from Adams typically standing next to where  
Jimmy Googs : 10/25/2016 7:41 am : link
a play/tackle just occurred...standing.

Several weeks in a row now plays have occurred downfield where he has been the deep safety, but is no where to be found when the ball arrives. The corners get zero support as Adams arrives seconds late.

He is the safest Free Safety in the NFL...

RE: My ire comes from Adams typically standing next to where  
Big Blue '56 : 10/25/2016 8:00 am : link
In comment 13189980 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
a play/tackle just occurred...standing.

Several weeks in a row now plays have occurred downfield where he has been the deep safety, but is no where to be found when the ball arrives. The corners get zero support as Adams arrives seconds late.

He is the safest Free Safety in the NFL...


True dat. He hasn't a clue at this point. But, if he has the talent and is raw, he should be given time, no? Ordinarily, he'd be brought along slowly or reside on the PS..He may be lost at present, but what choice did the Giants have?
RE: RE: My ire comes from Adams typically standing next to where  
Jimmy Googs : 10/27/2016 11:30 am : link
In comment 13189994 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13189980 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


a play/tackle just occurred...standing.

Several weeks in a row now plays have occurred downfield where he has been the deep safety, but is no where to be found when the ball arrives. The corners get zero support as Adams arrives seconds late.

He is the safest Free Safety in the NFL...




True dat. He hasn't a clue at this point. But, if he has the talent and is raw, he should be given time, no? Ordinarily, he'd be brought along slowly or reside on the PS..He may be lost at present, but what choice did the Giants have?


Not saying the Giants had a better choice. I am referring to how he needs to get off his heels more and get into some of these plays. He has the luxury of having some decent Corners out there, and Collins playing well at SS, so he is not exactly on an "island". Go be more aggressive.
RE: RE: RE: My ire comes from Adams typically standing next to where  
Big Blue '56 : 10/27/2016 11:34 am : link
In comment 13192995 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 13189994 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13189980 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


a play/tackle just occurred...standing.

Several weeks in a row now plays have occurred downfield where he has been the deep safety, but is no where to be found when the ball arrives. The corners get zero support as Adams arrives seconds late.

He is the safest Free Safety in the NFL...




True dat. He hasn't a clue at this point. But, if he has the talent and is raw, he should be given time, no? Ordinarily, he'd be brought along slowly or reside on the PS..He may be lost at present, but what choice did the Giants have?



Not saying the Giants had a better choice. I am referring to how he needs to get off his heels more and get into some of these plays. He has the luxury of having some decent Corners out there, and Collins playing well at SS, so he is not exactly on an "island". Go be more aggressive.


Hard to disagree with that, though because of his inexperience, might the Giants have told him to play it conservatively, at least for now?
Yeah probably. However, you see what i see...right now  
Jimmy Googs : 10/27/2016 12:24 pm : link
our best Offense (outside of OBJ breaking off a few big plays) is the play of our Defense.

With probably no hope of materially changing the running game or TE play, Giants will need the Defense to be more aggressive in getting points on the board.

imo...
Didn't mean the Giants should expect the Defense to put up  
Jimmy Googs : 10/27/2016 12:29 pm : link
points every week, but some mix of getting 1) the Offense in a better position on the field 2) a few turnovers when the opposing team is really backed up, and 3) a few scores here and there. All would contribute to getting more than just 10 points per week from Offense.

Outside of OBJ, our best playmakers right now may very well be on defense...

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