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Ben McAdoo will mull whether he’s Giants offense’s problem

gidiefor : Mod : 10/25/2016 9:37 am
Quote:
Another anemic performance from his offense — even in a victory — has Giants coach Ben McAdoo mulling changes that might start with McAdoo himself.

The first-year Big Blue boss said Monday he will think about surrendering the play-calling duties after the Giants’ season-long struggle to find the end zone continued unabated Sunday in a 17-10 victory over the Rams in London.


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that is definitely admirable  
Tuckrule : 10/25/2016 9:39 am : link
start with the man in the mirror
Is Sully an improvement?  
Big Blue '56 : 10/25/2016 9:40 am : link
.
.  
simgiant : 10/25/2016 9:40 am : link
We haven't seen many adjustments in the offense but i don't think McAdoo will die with his ideas. I think he is willing to evaluate and update if necessary.
...  
christian : 10/25/2016 9:42 am : link
Hmmm. I read that quote to mean he's willing to look at the plays, not the caller.
The god damn problem  
BlueHurricane : 10/25/2016 9:42 am : link
is no FB and no blocking TE and a pretty below average run blocking O line.

Fix those things and the offense will improve
Mac has a lot on his plate now...  
arcarsenal : 10/25/2016 9:43 am : link
I think trying to call the plays as well is probably overkill. I don't know if Sullivan would do a better job but now is probably the time to find out with an extra week to make those arrangements.
fellas help me out!  
King Quis : 10/25/2016 9:46 am : link
to anyone who has watched closely to the sidelines for all 7 games.... has McAdoo been the guy calling the plays the whole season???
RE: fellas help me out!  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/25/2016 9:49 am : link
In comment 13190173 King Quis said:
Quote:
to anyone who has watched closely to the sidelines for all 7 games.... has McAdoo been the guy calling the plays the whole season???


King, yes - he has been
They tried having Sullivan call plays in the 1st pre-season game.  
Ira : 10/25/2016 9:52 am : link
That wasn't successful.
RE: The god damn problem  
Giants2012 : 10/25/2016 9:52 am : link
In comment 13190164 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
is no FB and no blocking TE and a pretty below average run blocking O line.

Fix those things and the offense will improve


This is a smart move though. First he likely worked on the group executing better. Now he's going to see if it's the play calling. Next, they will determine if it's the personel.

It's going towards the direction of conclusion. At least he's not just gong with the status quo (or at least thinking about it).

Did Mike Sullivan call plays while he was in Tampa?  
Brown Recluse : 10/25/2016 9:54 am : link
His two years there were a mixed bag.
You mean  
area junc : 10/25/2016 9:57 am : link
don't use the same running play over and over again like a bad Madden player?
RE: RE: fellas help me out!  
King Quis : 10/25/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13190177 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13190173 King Quis said:


Quote:


to anyone who has watched closely to the sidelines for all 7 games.... has McAdoo been the guy calling the plays the whole season???



King, yes - he has been


Thanks! that's really odd.. you would think that if he did one thing well this year it would be what was most familiar to him which would be play calling. It seams as though this is one of the side effects of him carrying more on his plate than he is accustomed to. Things that he normally excelled in are now being affected because he has had less time to focus on them.
It kills me how  
area junc : 10/25/2016 10:04 am : link
little we run behind Flowers. The TD run? Behind Flowers.
One of the rare times we showed guile schematically in the run game - line Donnell up on the right and run to the weak side, behind Flowers. EF easily pushes his man inside - the key block at the POA - that creates the alley where it's supposed to be.

We've got this huge, badass run blocking OT who struggles in pass pro. We have a 1st round pick at LG and a 2nd rounder at C.

You'd think we'd build our offense around a left-handed running game. Seems like a pretty good place to start. But we see none of it. That is scary.
RE: Is Sully an improvement?  
Big Blue Blogger : 10/25/2016 10:11 am : link
Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.
All else being equal, I would say probably not. But given the OC's ability to devote more attention to the task, it should make the playcalling a bit more creative and a bit less predictable.

If there's a downside risk, it might be communication problems from having more cooks in the kitchen. That could mean the return of delay-of-game penalities and DEs teeing off on Eli as the play clock runs down; those issues haven't been as evident this year. If McAdoo does hand off playcalling duties, I hope he steps out of that realm completely - at least when the play clock is running.
You read enough of these  
Bill L : 10/25/2016 10:11 am : link
and you realize that they are all pulling stories, in isolation, from the same conference call/press conference. One that is transcribed on BBI verbatim. Things get pulled out, parsed, and all of the sudden they become a free-standing entity.

My take from reading the transcript itself, is not that Mac sat around and went, 'Gee, maybe I'm the problem with the offense. Maybe it's *my* playcalling that is causing us to be ineffective and lose. Maybe I need to give it up."

No, it was something like, "over the bye week we are going to look at everything, top to bottom and try to fix what we need to fix and, get healthy which would go a long way toward fixing everything just by itself".

In response to a question saying does everything include himself and the offensive scheme, he said something like, "Sure. I'm going to look at me, and the scheme and the players. Figure out what (in the scheme) works and if something doesn't work, as well as who is performing or not performing, who should play more and who should play less..."

IOW, in responding to questions he said they are going to do a comprehensive analysis. I didn't get the impression that this was some broody introspective soliloquy of his failings as a head coach, play-caller, and human being.
we need to get back to smash mouth run game  
SamdaGiantsFan : 10/25/2016 10:11 am : link
these TEs have proven inept at blocking. sign a FB off the street. . .
It's a lot to ask a first year HC to also call the plays,  
Section331 : 10/25/2016 10:19 am : link
he has too much on his plate. Even if Sullivan is doing the play calling, Mac will still be the architect. The first thing I would do is move Eli under center more often. It is harder to run out of the gun.
RE: It's a lot to ask a first year HC to also call the plays,  
Bill L : 10/25/2016 10:22 am : link
In comment 13190232 Section331 said:
Quote:
he has too much on his plate. Even if Sullivan is doing the play calling, Mac will still be the architect. The first thing I would do is move Eli under center more often. It is harder to run out of the gun.
I think that if it were that easy, they would have already done that. Under center, maybe they would run better but they might be come predictable because with this OL, Eli simply would not have enough time to drop back and pass. So, the defense would likely sell out on run D if Eli lined up over center. And then, they would be back to not being able to run.
RE: It kills me how  
Big Blue Blogger : 10/25/2016 10:24 am : link
area junc said:
Quote:
little we run behind Flowers. The TD run? Behind Flowers.

You may have a point, but keep in mind that our primary ballcarrier hasn't been able to hold the ball in his left hand. All the guys behind him have had ball-security issues (which tend to be more pronounced when running left), and we haven't seen any of them carry enough to know whether they are as effective running in that direction. Many backs just aren't.
The OL  
JonC : 10/25/2016 10:29 am : link
and McAdoo trying to scheme and call plays to protect it, is a key problem, right now.
McAdoo has a roster problem  
averagejoe : 10/25/2016 10:42 am : link
You can't attack a cover two with two free agent TE's that can't play. You can't attack a cover two with short passes off three step drops when the defense knows it is coming because OL can't sustain blocks.

EVERY roster in the NFL has a decent pass catching TE and a big WR outside - except the Giants.
Lol  
Cruzin : 10/25/2016 10:48 am : link

So much for the "McAdoo is purposely calling the same plays over and over again for repetition so the players learn them for a later date" theory.

It's pretty obvious he's in over his head at this point. Commendable that he realizes it. Let's get it fixed. I actually like McAdoo as our OC, time to call Tom.
ha  
djm : 10/25/2016 10:52 am : link
could you imagine if the giants did that for a second...during the bye week...giants re-hire coughlin as HC and move McAdoo back to OC. The universe would explode.
RE: McAdoo has a roster problem  
JonC : 10/25/2016 10:54 am : link
In comment 13190290 averagejoe said:
Quote:
You can't attack a cover two with two free agent TE's that can't play. You can't attack a cover two with short passes off three step drops when the defense knows it is coming because OL can't sustain blocks.

EVERY roster in the NFL has a decent pass catching TE and a big WR outside - except the Giants.


Correct.
RE: ha  
Cruzin : 10/25/2016 10:59 am : link
In comment 13190309 djm said:
Quote:
could you imagine if the giants did that for a second...during the bye week...giants re-hire coughlin as HC and move McAdoo back to OC. The universe would explode.


Anarchy, cats and dogs, dark forebodings and all that...
We'd be a playoff contender if we got Tom back, as of now we're probably one of the best teams to miss the payoffs, the elite of the mediocre.
It makes little difference who calls the plays with Eli at QB  
Ivan15 : 10/25/2016 11:10 am : link
Eli can change plays at any time.

If McAdoo gave up the playcalling, he might get his head out of the playsheet and a better feel for what's going on.

I don't think Sullivan can do worse, but the real problem is a lack of blocking. Any improvement in the O-line (probably not happening), at TE (possible) or FB (find one) would help.
RE: RE: McAdoo has a roster problem  
Johnny5 : 10/25/2016 11:42 am : link
In comment 13190314 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13190290 averagejoe said:


Quote:


You can't attack a cover two with two free agent TE's that can't play. You can't attack a cover two with short passes off three step drops when the defense knows it is coming because OL can't sustain blocks.

EVERY roster in the NFL has a decent pass catching TE and a big WR outside - except the Giants.



Correct.

Agreed. And even with a FB or HB we would have more success methinks. It's like a perfect storm whenever a position gets hit by injury for the Giants. Was looking so forward to seeing Will Johnson in the offense. Gone. Whitlock hurt suspended, so no fall back there. Even Matt LaCosse gone to injury (he seemed like he might be the best blocking option of the TEs). Seems no one is even left on the couch as a big body to bring in off the street like a Chandler from NE (I think he hurt his knee). It sucks.
is there precedent for first time head coaches  
chris r : 10/25/2016 11:50 am : link
with no head coaching experience at any level taking on playcalling duties their first season? Did it work?

It just seems a like a tall order.
The change from McAdoo would have a consequential advantage  
Archer : 10/25/2016 11:57 am : link
If Sullivan calls the plays the Eagles would have a hard time game planning. Sullivan would not have the same tendencies as McAdoo.
This could be an advantage for the Giants.
RE: It kills me how  
giants#1 : 10/25/2016 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13190212 area junc said:
Quote:
little we run behind Flowers. The TD run? Behind Flowers.
One of the rare times we showed guile schematically in the run game - line Donnell up on the right and run to the weak side, behind Flowers. EF easily pushes his man inside - the key block at the POA - that creates the alley where it's supposed to be.

We've got this huge, badass run blocking OT who struggles in pass pro. We have a 1st round pick at LG and a 2nd rounder at C.

You'd think we'd build our offense around a left-handed running game. Seems like a pretty good place to start. But we see none of it. That is scary.


If you go to the bottom of the link, you'll see the Giants run off left end/left tackle 21% of the time. That's compared to runs off right end/tackle only 12% of the time (almost double). By far the bulk of their runs are up the middle (66%) as they should be since Pugh-Richburg-Jerry have been the strength of the OL.
link  
giants#1 : 10/25/2016 12:03 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Is Sully an improvement?  
Big Blue '56 : 10/25/2016 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13190217 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


.

All else being equal, I would say probably not. But given the OC's ability to devote more attention to the task, it should make the playcalling a bit more creative and a bit less predictable.

If there's a downside risk, it might be communication problems from having more cooks in the kitchen. That could mean the return of delay-of-game penalities and DEs teeing off on Eli as the play clock runs down; those issues haven't been as evident this year. If McAdoo does hand off playcalling duties, I hope he steps out of that realm completely - at least when the play clock is running.


Good post and forgive my possible naivete, but isn't it to the point where Eli says to his coordinator, QB coach, HC, this is what I'm most effective with, this is what I'd like to run, etc., etc?
How about Shotgun v. under the center  
DoctorT : 10/25/2016 12:08 pm : link
running plays? Anybody have those stats? It seems to me that we don't give our backs a chance to 'run to daylight'
RE: Did Mike Sullivan call plays while he was in Tampa?  
Carson53 : 10/25/2016 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13190190 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
His two years there were a mixed bag.
.

Not well, and the only reason he is here, well Coughlin
brought him back. As a first year HC, Mac couldn't
get rid of all the assistants he most likely wanted to.
I hope that changes next year, Sullivan and Gilbride, Jr. come to mind.
Gilbride, Jr. is no improvement over Pope (now in Dallas).
The tight ends don't develop around here, time for Donnell
to sit on the bench. I don't how much rope you can give
a player like that? At some point, enough is enough.
Playcalling 101  
Carson53 : 10/25/2016 12:40 pm : link
You don't get the ball with about 90 seconds left in the half
or the 3rd quarter (I forget?), and coming off the sidelines
on a change of possession and....throw a lateral to Bobby
Friggin Rainey on first down. WTF kind of playcalling is that?
They tried that with Beckham too earlier, and lost about
6 yards. This offense cannot play 'behind the sticks'.
It is that simple, that includes holding calls, etc.
RE: Is Sully an improvement?  
micky : 10/25/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13190156 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.


No.imho..could be worse
RE: Playcalling 101  
Big Blue '56 : 10/25/2016 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13190507 Carson53 said:
Quote:
You don't get the ball with about 90 seconds left in the half
or the 3rd quarter (I forget?), and coming off the sidelines
on a change of possession and....throw a lateral to Bobby
Friggin Rainey on first down. WTF kind of playcalling is that?
They tried that with Beckham too earlier, and lost about
6 yards. This offense cannot play 'behind the sticks'.
It is that simple, that includes holding calls, etc.


It looked to me as though Eli simply didn't take a deep enough drop and hence the lateral. My guess is it wasn't by design. Eli just didn't take it deep enough. No way of knowing. Was he asked about it?
RE: It makes little difference who calls the plays with Eli at QB  
montanagiant : 10/25/2016 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13190340 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Eli can change plays at any time.

If McAdoo gave up the playcalling, he might get his head out of the playsheet and a better feel for what's going on.

I don't think Sullivan can do worse, but the real problem is a lack of blocking. Any improvement in the O-line (probably not happening), at TE (possible) or FB (find one) would help.

IMO there seems to be a misconception of what entitles "changing the play". Now I will be the first to admit I have no idea how much leeway he has. But with the limited time given at the line, you would have to believe that outside of a hot route or changing to a run his options are pretty limited.

IE: The play comes in as a screen, to now change that into a completely different pass play would require audibles for blocking scheme, WR set, and outlet options, while at the same time identifying blitzes, coverages, and the key defender. I could easily be wrong about this but I don't see how
I hope  
Eman11 : 10/25/2016 12:54 pm : link
He's aware enough to see how predictable he and the offense are. I'm no stat guy but just going off what I see it looks like they're almost always in a three wide. They aren't moving guys around as much and hardly ever throw right.

Their runs are also predictable, not only what running plays they run but when. Maybe it's just me but it sure seems like they've run on 1st down every first possession after halftime.

They need to change their tendencies,IMO. They're having enough trouble running and getting open. They sure don't need to give D's the advantage of knowing what's coming.
O-line and the TE positions  
Bluesbreaker : 10/25/2016 12:54 pm : link
None of them are dominate run blockers and are generally
over matched in size and strength .
Richberg gets Zero Push . Pugh can neutralize his guy but
it's not like he turns and pancakes anyone .
Jerry seems to move ok but there is never or rarely
a gaping hole . Flowers has the potential to be a great
run blocker but LT I don't think so .
Need to big bodies on the right side of the line that
have the size and power to move the line of scrimmage .
With Flowers he doesn't get much help with a decent
TE to help with speed rushers .
Good, not saying he is the problem  
giantgiantfan : 10/25/2016 12:59 pm : link
but it would be cool for him to sit with OC and other offensive coaches and have a constructive criticism session. However, Giants are #32 in the run. You don't get dead last by scheme and play calling alone, the OL/FB/TE situation eats dingle berries.
I believe it was  
old man : 10/25/2016 2:06 pm : link
...331 that stated both HC and OC is a lot on a 1st year coach, and I agree. And while YES, our OL is average, but its the predictability we've seen that has actually further helped Ds defend us.
For example, was on the phone with my cousin for a while as we watched the Rams game. During a possession we had down near our 20 to start a drive, once I saw the formation, I called out a play to him, each time; it WAS the play each time. No audible by Eli...3 and OUT. Truly if I can recognize the play, a good DC, probably the MLB can call the D.Obviously 3 straight is a freak series, but it shows how easy it has been to predict the play.
Example:Beckham in the backfield, swing out wide...I do not recall a pump fake off of it and throwing deep, or over the slot quickly , or to the right as D will react to OBJs direction, ever.....we need to keep Ds honest.
We've generally IDd the playcalling as vanilla, when possibly just running a fake off a play may make the calling at least SEEM better, while keeping Ds guessing some.
RE: Is Sully an improvement?  
Matt M. : 10/25/2016 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13190156 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.
That's the million dollar question. I don't think so, but that is really just a hunch. We have little to base this on. However, I do think McAdoo is failing us calling the plays while HC. He is calling games not to lose, as opposed to being aggressive. This offense does not resemble the previous two years he was overseeing the offense, even though we have more talent now.
what a revelation!  
SHO'NUFF : 10/25/2016 2:25 pm : link
something Coughlin would never do...
I think Sully would be an improvement  
allstarjim : 10/25/2016 2:40 pm : link
I think he has a better handle on Eli's strengths and weaknesses than McAdoo. I believe McAdoo is trying desperately to thrust his offense on Eli without regard if it needs adjusting to those strengths and weaknesses.

That said, McAdoo is only part of the problem. Eli has to play better, the running game design is a complete failure, the offense is so predictable, and the Giants need a better weapon outside that is a more formidable deep threat to draw coverage away from OBJ and the middle of the field. Cruz is not that kind of player.

Sure, they could use a better TE. Sure, the OL can play better (but they are not a liability on this team as some have suggested, they are mostly playing pretty well). But from my eyes, it's scheme (particularly in the run game), Eli's performance, play calling, and lack of a deep threat to complement OBJ... pretty much in that order.
RE: I think Sully would be an improvement  
Matt M. : 10/25/2016 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13190765 allstarjim said:
Quote:
I think he has a better handle on Eli's strengths and weaknesses than McAdoo. I believe McAdoo is trying desperately to thrust his offense on Eli without regard if it needs adjusting to those strengths and weaknesses.

That said, McAdoo is only part of the problem. Eli has to play better, the running game design is a complete failure, the offense is so predictable, and the Giants need a better weapon outside that is a more formidable deep threat to draw coverage away from OBJ and the middle of the field. Cruz is not that kind of player.

Sure, they could use a better TE. Sure, the OL can play better (but they are not a liability on this team as some have suggested, they are mostly playing pretty well). But from my eyes, it's scheme (particularly in the run game), Eli's performance, play calling, and lack of a deep threat to complement OBJ... pretty much in that order.
Thrust his offense on Eli without knowledge of strengths and weaknesses? This is the third eyar of this offense. The previous two, Eli had two of his very best years with less talent available to him. This really should be a year that Eli took off in this offense. Instead, it seems to me, we are getting disjointed gameplans and playcalling, with an attitude of not losing, instead of playing to win.
RE: McAdoo has a roster problem  
section125 : 10/25/2016 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13190290 averagejoe said:
Quote:
You can't attack a cover two with two free agent TE's that can't play. You can't attack a cover two with short passes off three step drops when the defense knows it is coming because OL can't sustain blocks.

EVERY roster in the NFL has a decent pass catching TE and a big WR outside - except the Giants.


Tye can catch the football and he can run with it. Just eliminate Donnell from the field and let Tye be the TE and start getting Adams involved. Adams looks like he can move and catch.

What is a big WR? 6'2", 6'5"? We had one, he sucked.
McAdoo will still be calling plays  
GloryDayz : 10/25/2016 3:32 pm : link
He's just being coy.

He did it throughout pre-season (not give a straight answer) and he's doing it again now that he's being asked.
This year I don't see how McAdoo could have even a fraction of  
CT Charlie : 10/25/2016 3:44 pm : link
the time & energy to scout opponents' tendencies. Let Eli make ALL the calls, all the time, preferably in the huddle.
Cutback  
cznmike : 10/27/2016 6:46 am : link
Either it's the running backs or the play calling or both. Watch every other team in the league that can run the ball and the backs either by design or because they can see with both eyes bounce to the opening.
In every game I see at least two or three running plays where the entire line has collapsed into a pile and guess where the running back goes? The defense never holds their positions against the Giants, they all move the direction of the running play because no one cuts back toward the opening or open side of the field.
RE: They tried having Sullivan call plays in the 1st pre-season game.  
Jay in Toronto : 10/27/2016 6:58 am : link
In comment 13190183 Ira said:
Quote:
That wasn't successful.


What was successful by the offense this preseason?
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