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(Long) The main problem with running against Rams was...

cnewk : 10/27/2016 10:17 am
Jerry.

Last game I thought the offensive line played better than the rushing numbers indicated. That wasn’t the case in this game, but it wasn’t all bad. The primary culprit in my eyes was Jerry. He has been pretty solid up until this game, but he was really bad in the run game against the Rams. Pugh was ok in the run game, but not as good as he has been (which has been very good). Flowers had a much better game, and looked to me like the best run blocker of the day. Honestly this may have been Flowers best game as a pro. Richburg and Hart were decent, each having a few plays in the run game they would like to have back.

A real shocker to me was that Will Tye actually had a good game blocking from what I could see, though he was only in on 8 run plays. 1 play it looked like there may have been a miscommunication between him and Hart. It looked like Hart was set up to block the guy Tye did, and Hart was talking with him after the play. He did a good job with the block (though he may have gotten confused on his assignment). There was also a play where he was lined up wider than normal and he (along with all the receivers) ran pass patterns rather than looking for someone to block. So, it was obviously a small sample size, but I didn’t see a play where Tye had a bad blocking attempt (obviously not perfect, but he looked better than in most games).

I think I read someone say they thought Jerry had a very good game. If you look only at pass protection that would be true, but he was dreadful in the run game. To my eyes he was by far the person most to blame for the ineffective run game against the Rams. The next post will highlight some plays that show Jerry’s struggles. There were a lot of them, so I won’t get to all of them.

I review 5 of the first 11 running plays of the game where Jerry’s blocking was not just below average but atrocious. The other 6 plays were not good for Jerry either. There may have been 1 run play in the first 11 where Jerry had a block that wasn’t what I would consider below average. He did start to have a bit more success run blocking after this point, and even had some good blocks. But, it really doesn't make up for how bad he was through the first 2.5+ quarters. He really has been a lot better than last year, so hopefully this is just one bad game he recovers from.
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RE: it would seem  
cnewk : 10/27/2016 11:26 am : link
In comment 13192939 djm said:
Quote:
that the OL always has one guy playing poorly during the rough games that see the offense struggle.

It's not the same guy every week. Not sure if that's encouraging or discouraging. I guess we will take it as a positive that each player has flashed glimpses of good play and hope that they get their collective act in gear.

The one glaring problem that is correctable is the plus minus turnover battle. Fix that and the other weaknesses that have been examined here can be mitigated.


That was my impression as well. It looks like there are plays to be made, they just can't seem to get them all playing well at the same time. Whether it's game to game or play to play. It's nice to see flashes from everyone, but when you are talking about offensive line play consistency is an important trait. On the other hand we do have some young players (especially the tackles) where you need to expect some bumps along the road.
Uggh  
Johnny5 : 10/27/2016 11:34 am : link
If it is really one block from success so often, I can't imagine that these guys cannot be getting immensely frustrated at that in the OL meetings and film study... Hopefully they can become more cohesive. It does seem like there is a new guy taking on the "down week" position every game. Richburg seems hurt to me, or something. He just seems to not have the same pop or ferociousness as last year.
Thanks for doing this cnewk  
Johnny5 : 10/27/2016 11:35 am : link
Great stuff
cnewk,  
Keith : 10/27/2016 11:36 am : link
thanks for taking all the time to break this down for us.

Question.....I will preface this by saying that I really do like Jennings. He does a lot of things well and he seems to be a great teammate/person. I feel like he's a problem too. He seems really slow to hit the hole. In those rare situations when there is a hole, even a small one, he's so slow to hit it that it closes before he gets through the line. Do you see the same thing?
Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
est1986 : 10/27/2016 11:37 am : link
A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.
Thank you  
ChicagoMarty : 10/27/2016 11:45 am : link
you!
Poor Reese. Gets blamed for everything.  
Mike in Long Beach : 10/27/2016 11:46 am : link
Quote:
(Long) The main problem with running against Rams was...

cnewk : 10:17 am
Jerry.
RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
Johnny5 : 10/27/2016 11:46 am : link
In comment 13193013 est1986 said:
Quote:
A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.

He was very good last year, he must be nursing an injury or something.
RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
BigBlueShock : 10/27/2016 11:51 am : link
In comment 13193013 est1986 said:
Quote:
A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.

Ummmm, he WAS a top 3 center last year. That may be why people on BBI proclaimed it? Your post comes of as looking like you've been waiting to use the "I told you so" routine. So, I guess it's stupid to judge him on his performance of an entire season, but you have no problem judging him on 7 games, this season?
RE: cnewk,  
cnewk : 10/27/2016 11:57 am : link
In comment 13193012 Keith said:
Quote:
thanks for taking all the time to break this down for us.

Question.....I will preface this by saying that I really do like Jennings. He does a lot of things well and he seems to be a great teammate/person. I feel like he's a problem too. He seems really slow to hit the hole. In those rare situations when there is a hole, even a small one, he's so slow to hit it that it closes before he gets through the line. Do you see the same thing?


To me Jennings is an average back. He isn't particularly shifty or quick to the hole, but he plays hard and is good at pass protection. I like the potential of Perkins for the run game, hopefully he can pick up the pass protection aspects of the position. Perkins has had limited opportunities, but I've seen him display good vision and quickness with the ability to make guys miss. I expect his playing time will continue to increase as the season goes on.
I feel like sometimes there are small holes  
Keith : 10/27/2016 11:58 am : link
and a guy that bursts through the line can gain some yards, but Jennings is so slow to hit the hole that there is virtually no shot of gaining more than 1-2 yards.
It's hard to fault  
Pete in MD : 10/27/2016 12:00 pm : link
Jerry (and Richburg) for having a tough day against the best DT in the league. They did enough to get the W. Every week is a new challenge.
RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
djm : 10/27/2016 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13193013 est1986 said:
Quote:
A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.


Dude it was more than just BBI. It was the entire NFL world. Everyone loved Richburg going into this season and if you didn't you weren't watching the guy play.
but... but...  
SHO'NUFF : 10/27/2016 12:13 pm : link
Jerry went to Bentley's camp...he's much improved...
Thank you cnewk  
David in LA : 10/27/2016 12:19 pm : link
Always look forward to these posts every week.
RE: It's hard to fault  
giants#1 : 10/27/2016 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13193063 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
Jerry (and Richburg) for having a tough day against the best DT in the league. They did enough to get the W. Every week is a new challenge.


Fair point, but based on the above analysis, he often wasn't expected to block Donald. Some of those misses are against the other DT or LBs.
it was an epic fail not at least bringing in some competition on the  
chris r : 10/27/2016 12:28 pm : link
right side of the line during the offseason.
I'd put Jerry on the Bench  
Beer Man : 10/27/2016 12:33 pm : link
Put Will B. in, and more Hart over to RG. Leave it up to the coach as to who plays LT/RT between Will B. and Flowers.
RE: I feel like sometimes there are small holes  
Johnny5 : 10/27/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13193056 Keith said:
Quote:
and a guy that bursts through the line can gain some yards, but Jennings is so slow to hit the hole that there is virtually no shot of gaining more than 1-2 yards.

In my view it's less about slowness than a hesitation before he hits the hole. He never hits a hole at full force (seemingly to me) and that is a big problem because stuff closes quickly.
RE: RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
est1986 : 10/27/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13193091 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13193013 est1986 said:


Quote:


A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.



Dude it was more than just BBI. It was the entire NFL world. Everyone loved Richburg going into this season and if you didn't you weren't watching the guy play.


lol. what NFL world? PFF maybe. What's your problem, are you Weston's mom?
I don't who you are  
JerseyCityJoe : 10/27/2016 12:56 pm : link
but thank you for making sense OL play that too few of us (me included) really understand. Great stuff.
Or maybe a few other places...  
okiegiant : 10/27/2016 12:58 pm : link
Richburg was highly touted for his play...it's okay to disagree but don't act like people are just making things up.

Quote:
it's clear that he's the most well-rounded young center in the game behind his NFC East rival Travis Frederick, and the arrow is definitely pointing up here.

Richburg Sports Ilustrated - ( New Window )
It's odd that Jerry  
Simms11 : 10/27/2016 1:00 pm : link
has been one of PFFs top linemen on the Giants this year. He's never been good at run-blocking and I haven't really taken notice of his play in previous games, but maybe we need to consider getting that mauler in FA or draft next year. I assume the blocking scheme will remain the same and if so, we need someone that can blow a hole in the defense, especially on the right side.
RE: Or maybe a few other places...  
Johnny5 : 10/27/2016 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13193218 okiegiant said:
Quote:
Richburg was highly touted for his play...it's okay to disagree but don't act like people are just making things up.



Quote:


it's clear that he's the most well-rounded young center in the game behind his NFC East rival Travis Frederick, and the arrow is definitely pointing up here.

Richburg Sports Ilustrated - ( New Window )

At this point I HOPE it's injury he's battling... because the only other (major) difference is the addition of Solari (and subtraction of Flaherty)
cnewk, Thank You for the Post hopefully you can find the time to do m  
Bluesbreaker : 10/27/2016 1:41 pm : link
To me you can see some glaring mistakes from time to time
watching TV but you only see what the camera crew allows .
Having crucial short yardage downs and seeing the explanation
of the blocking . It helps bring to light the failures to
convert and produce a respected run game .
Now this crew has had 3 plus seasons to mold themselves but
in the end its about talents having added 3 starters in
the draft not one of them are playing at an above average
level . The fact that Jerry and Newhouse were stop gap
players and are still starting tells me that the draft
choices are questionable . Pugh seems to be the best of
the bunch and the most consistant .
The drafts have not had any luck in developing later round
picks in the draft either . I can't sit here and blame
poor coaching its more talent laden then not .
It was a glaring problem the last three years and yet we
have done nothing to resolve it .
RE: RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
est1986 : 10/27/2016 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13193040 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13193013 est1986 said:


Quote:


A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.


Ummmm, he WAS a top 3 center last year. That may be why people on BBI proclaimed it? Your post comes of as looking like you've been waiting to use the "I told you so" routine. So, I guess it's stupid to judge him on his performance of an entire season, but you have no problem judging him on 7 games, this season?


All I'm saying is what I've been saying, he hasn't shown enough to be a top 3 center. I guess you have to be Giants biased in order to post nowadays? He's been poor these 7 games, hopes are still high, I just don't expect him to be the best in the business like the rest of BBI apparently does, sorry about that.
This is fantastic - thanks for posting this  
mgreenie03 : 10/27/2016 1:57 pm : link
I really wish the TV talking head shows would go into this type of game details but all we seem to get now is fantasy crap.
thanks cnewk  
area junc : 10/27/2016 2:00 pm : link
it's always worth mentioning and as you point out again most of these are inside hand-offs from the shotgun with a G pulling. The D knows it's coming which makes it very difficult to execute.

If we had a better variation of run plays to keep the D honest and not let them run directly to the point of attack we'd see better results. the play calling is making the line look much worse than it is IMO.

no reason we can't be running toss sweeps, pitches, power off-tackles, counters - i personally just can't get over how simple we are and expect it to work
awesome  
Les in TO : 10/27/2016 2:01 pm : link
get this man a job with the giants!
Great  
AcidTest : 10/27/2016 2:13 pm : link
stuff. Wow. Incredible analysis.
RE: RE: RE: Everyone on BBI proclaimed Richburg  
okiegiant : 10/27/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13193301 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13193040 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13193013 est1986 said:


Quote:


A top 3 Center after only 1 year at Center!!! Now in year 2 at center he is closer to a bottom 3 Center, has been totally unimpressive this year.


Ummmm, he WAS a top 3 center last year. That may be why people on BBI proclaimed it? Your post comes of as looking like you've been waiting to use the "I told you so" routine. So, I guess it's stupid to judge him on his performance of an entire season, but you have no problem judging him on 7 games, this season?



All I'm saying is what I've been saying, he hasn't shown enough to be a top 3 center. I guess you have to be Giants biased in order to post nowadays? He's been poor these 7 games, hopes are still high, I just don't expect him to be the best in the business like the rest of BBI apparently does, sorry about that.


The old you have to be biased in favor of the Giants to post defense. No you just have to back up opinions with actual facts.

Richburg is not playing well. This is obvious. It doesn't take away from the fact he played well last year, though. Will he recover, who knows, but if he could it would certainly help the Giants going down the road.
I'll also translate this  
SethFromAstoria : 10/27/2016 2:44 pm : link
another way as well.

Our QB basically rolls the dice and hopes his guys come close to giving him time on every play.
Not going to lie  
joeinpa : 10/27/2016 2:53 pm : link
Your post while obviously way beyond the normal post is information overload for me.

But one thing it did make clear to me is the refrain we keep hearing from the team each week in that they are correctable mistakes. Not sure if it s correctable as in now or in correctable as in when they get better players.
RE: it was an epic fail not at least bringing in some competition on the  
Go Terps : 10/27/2016 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13193140 chris r said:
Quote:
right side of the line during the offseason.


To me it's the top story of the last year for this team. With all that cap space to not come out of the off-season with either Osemele, Schwartz, or both was an enormous missed opportunity to turn the line into a major strength.
Here is one more play. Their best run of the day.  
cnewk : 10/27/2016 3:15 pm : link
Even on this play where Perkins gains 10 yards, Jerry didn't really block very well.

1-10-NYG 28(12:41 in 2nd) Perkins for 10 yard gain.

Here you can see the Giants have a great play call against the defense the Rams are running. McDonald (white circle) was up making it look like they are in Cover 1, but he starts dropping back into Cover 2 just before the snap (something the did a fair amount at the start of the game). This means there are 6 blockers and 6 defenders, with the safety not only playing deep, but moving back. You also will notice that the red lines showing who Jerry, Richburg, and Flowers are blocking are slanted to the left and they are blocking to the left. This means they already are in a good position to seal their man away from the play. They don’t have to move their man, they just have to maintain their position. Hart has the most difficult job matching up with Westbrooks at the point of attack, and Tye is faced with safety Barron there as well. Hart (red circle) and Tye (black circle) do a great job. Hart drives Westbrooks to the outside and up the field so that Perkins has a huge hole to run through. Barron loops to the inside and at first it looks like Tye might not be in position to make the block. He is able to block Barron and drive him to the inside. Perkins also reads the play well and cuts to the outside of Tye’s block for a 10 yard gain. Donald and Sims both initially try to go upfield which makes it easy for Richburg and Flowers to block them from the play. Jerry (yellow circle) is blocking Easley, you can see even in the second frame his positioning isn’t great, and Easley is starting to disengage. In the third frame you seem Easley is shedding the blocking and moving to fit the hole. Pugh, who is pulling, helps out on Easley keeping him away from Perkins. This does, however, mean that Pugh cannot get to the second level to block Ogletree, who is the one who eventually makes the tackle.
Hey bro  
Route 9 : 10/27/2016 3:16 pm : link
Very good post. I liked it. Agreed what you said about Jennings.
Exactly ..Either one would have made a huge Impact ...  
Bluesbreaker : 10/27/2016 3:26 pm : link
RE: it was an epic fail not at least bringing in some competition on the
Go Terps : 3:01 pm : link : reply
In comment 13193140 chris r said:
Quote:
right side of the line during the offseason.


To me it's the top story of the last year for this team. With all that cap space to not come out of the off-season with either Osemele, Schwartz, or both was an enormous missed opportunity to turn the line into a major strength.
Add Your Comment

Then add the fact that Will Johnson was another key piece
of the puzzle . He gave us flexibility where he could block
from multiple positions yet Again we failed to address
that as well not adding any type of blocker stymies the
team for another friggen year ...
GREAT WORK  
shelovesnycsports : 10/27/2016 3:26 pm : link
cnewk everyone enjoys these break down threads.

I had saw the same thing on Jerry and commented on it and was told Jerry is much better this year. Most guys don't watch the the replays and just go with Its the Coaches fault on the wrong play called when most time its the right play with a break down in execution. Our Line this year seems not as strong as prior years I don't know if thats the new program or not but some games these guys are gassed in the 3rd quarter.
RE: RE: it was an epic fail not at least bringing in some competition on the  
Reb8thVA : 10/27/2016 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13193448 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13193140 chris r said:


Quote:


right side of the line during the offseason.



To me it's the top story of the last year for this team. With all that cap space to not come out of the off-season with either Osemele, Schwartz, or both was an enormous missed opportunity to turn the line into a major strength.

+1
RE: I'd put Jerry on the Bench  
section125 : 10/27/2016 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13193158 Beer Man said:
Quote:
Put Will B. in, and more Hart over to RG. Leave it up to the coach as to who plays LT/RT between Will B. and Flowers.


You may be right on moving Hart to RG. Jerry had been pretty decent up to that game. I may be wrong, but I think Hart is getting better each week. He was awful against GB. I think Hart is a good run blocker and he is decent in pass pro even if a little slow at tackle. Limit the area he has to cover and he may become VG at pass pro as a guard.
Maybe Richburg has an ankle???????
oh, thanks  
section125 : 10/27/2016 3:31 pm : link
cnewk...
A few weeks ago, Jerry was one of our better blockers  
Matt M. : 10/27/2016 3:44 pm : link
on one of our few decent rushing days. However, it was the result of pulling him quite often. I recall the announcers even pointing out how well he was doing on the move in contrast to the revolving door he was when blocking more or less straight up.
Excellent, cnewk!  
Blackbeard : 10/27/2016 3:52 pm : link
Great analysis work, especially without benefit of coaches tapes.
Such dedication!!
Joyner stands out to me  
Vanzetti : 10/27/2016 6:15 pm : link
If he is so persistently looking inside and not being drawn out by WR, it sounds like he is fairly sure a running play is coming. So, either the play calling is too predictable in its tendencies or they are somehow tipping run.

And I'm not negating the execution errors pointed out by cnewk. But execution is contextual. When the opponent has two deep safeties and is still putting 8 men in the box against the run, it is going to be tough to execute.
cnewk, I'd be curious to hear  
CT Charlie : 10/27/2016 7:18 pm : link
your week-by-week evaluations of the O-linemen based on the quality of the players they're facing. For example, if someone has a relatively bad week, is it the result of bad technique or having to block an all-Pro. (This is one of the many exasperating aspects of Pro Football Focus ratings.)
Nice work!  
trueblueinpw : 10/27/2016 8:04 pm : link
Good to see a football post. Outstanding!

Jerry had a bad day at the office. These things happen. Hopefully he cleans it up.
Cnewk  
Aloha Alan : 10/27/2016 8:04 pm : link
This isn't just the only good work you've done and helped us with. Thank you for all the work you put in on this.


I vote loudly.....Make him a MOD!!!!
Here's a couple Questions:  
Aloha Alan : 10/27/2016 8:10 pm : link
With the Offensive Line Coaching being different, has that possibly been affecting (as in new technique) Richburg vice a possible injury? And if that is an injury related issue, what does that say about our Center backups?
To me it looks like it's a physical thing with Jerry  
Simms11 : 10/27/2016 9:35 pm : link
and Richburg. They just do not look physical enough in run blocking. I think Jerry is what he is, and this is the best he'll be. Richburg is only in his second year as a starter and so I think he'll continue to get stronger and excel, but Jerry is still not great in straight ahead run blocking.
Richburg is in his second year as a starter at center  
Simms11 : 10/27/2016 9:36 pm : link
I should say.
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