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[Video]Simms: Breaking Down Giants Most Basic Offense in NFL

OdellBeckhamJr : 10/27/2016 7:22 pm
click link for video
link - ( New Window )
Just watched this before checking BBI  
Emil : 10/27/2016 7:34 pm : link
This legitimately has me worried. The overall simplicity of what the Giants are doing on offense is highly concerning and quite honestly mind boggling. I don't recall the offense being this simple last season. Is it McAdoo? Is it a lack of faith in the pass protection? The routes run by the Giants are mastered during high school. I'm shocked at the lack of complimentary routes and the absence of scheming to beat the coverage. This needs to change fast.
96%?  
Joey in VA : 10/27/2016 7:35 pm : link
That's as bad as hearing Ed Rooney.."NINE..TIMES". Sweet Tap Dancing Christ, no wonder the snap counts are so fing high and our team is worn to a nub.
96% of the time Giants are in a 3 receiver set...  
kelsto811 : 10/27/2016 7:39 pm : link
that seems unreal...nothing to back that up but wow
That was  
Reb8thVA : 10/27/2016 7:46 pm : link
Truly depressing.
ON the flip side  
Joey in VA : 10/27/2016 7:47 pm : link
We're over .500 with a middle school offense!
Do these guys have a quality control coach?  
jcn56 : 10/27/2016 7:48 pm : link
Or did they hand that job down to another Mara relative? This is alarming...
What's the alternative to the 3 WR set w/o a FB?  
David in LA : 10/27/2016 7:50 pm : link
2 TEs? I shudder at the thought of trotting Donnell and Tye out there. Sounds sad, but the 3 WR is our best personnel grouping on paper. Gotta trot out the best 11 men, right?
RE: What's the alternative to the 3 WR set w/o a FB?  
Joey in VA : 10/27/2016 7:52 pm : link
In comment 13193732 David in LA said:
Quote:
2 TEs? I shudder at the thought of trotting Donnell and Tye out there. Sounds sad, but the 3 WR is our best personnel grouping on paper. Gotta trot out the best 11 men, right?
Yeah but you can go 4 WR, line up a TE as a FB, go two TE with Adams and Tye and use Donnell in the slot, Beckham inside...the variations are plenty.
Yikes  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/27/2016 7:52 pm : link
!!!
And even  
McNally's_Nuts : 10/27/2016 8:00 pm : link
when they've got favorable one on one matches, outside of Beckham they don't really win those match ups.

Look at Will Tye in the Redskins game. 1-1 and he just gave up on the route leading to a costly interception.

Sterling Shepard against Baltimore on the interception, yeah it shoulda been flagged for interference but it was a one on one match up and he lost.

I can see why every pass Eli throws is a 50-50 ball.
Don't worry!  
fivehead : 10/27/2016 8:01 pm : link
It's early in the season. We're playing it close to the vest and keeping it vanilla. We're hiding our best plays for later.
It's  
AcidTest : 10/27/2016 8:10 pm : link
like we still think it's preseason where we can't reveal anything.
Of course they don't trust the pass protection  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/27/2016 8:13 pm : link
Every time they play a talented defensive front, it causes trouble.
Pretty concerning...  
arcarsenal : 10/27/2016 8:13 pm : link
Issues in other areas would be a little easier to tolerate.. offense is supposed to be McAdoo's calling card here and we're running the most basic and easy to defend offense in football.
Joey, am I imagining things  
David in LA : 10/27/2016 8:14 pm : link
or did we ever have plays for OBJ in the trips formation? I don't think I've seen us run that formation this year yet.
One reason to stick with McAdoo  
81_Great_Dane : 10/27/2016 8:16 pm : link
and not entirely clean house was to keep Eli from having to learn yet another offense (Coughlin/Gilbride, Coughlin/McAdoo, new guy). Continuity would let the offense retain its core proficiency and let experienced players -- especially Eli and OBJ -- add wrinkles.

So... WTF?
I forget who said it  
McNally's_Nuts : 10/27/2016 8:18 pm : link
but Macadoo's huge play sheet is like a Chinese take out menu.

Huge menu and you order the same goop every time.

Althought General Tso's and some dumplings is way more satisfying than watching this Giants offense.
Strategery  
Jimmy Googs : 10/27/2016 8:20 pm : link
.
So! The Giants fired T.C.  
Blackbeard : 10/27/2016 8:25 pm : link
so that our rookie H.C. could give us this shit?
They probably don't trust  
David B. : 10/27/2016 8:39 pm : link
The weak OL or their total shit TEs enough to do a lot more than that.

Not that that's an excuse.
i.e it's their personnel -- or lack thereof  
David B. : 10/27/2016 8:42 pm : link
Probably not that McAdoo doesn't know any better.
This explains why there are some plays  
bradshaw44 : 10/27/2016 8:51 pm : link
Where the center snaps the ball and Eli immediately throws it in the dirt.
JFC that was depressing  
Patrick77 : 10/27/2016 8:55 pm : link
Simms broke it down like it was a joke. I don't understand why it has to be so painfully simple. I do get why the personnel never changes - in a perfect world Donnel and Tye are healthy scratches or free agents.
Waiting for later?  
Giant John : 10/27/2016 8:58 pm : link
It gets late early in the NFL!
They have trouble executing simple  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/27/2016 9:01 pm : link
Imagine if it was complicated.
It actually seemed the same way with Gilbride.  
Dry Lightning : 10/27/2016 9:04 pm : link
It's funny, I remember the Eagles game in I think 2011 when Brandon Jacobs caught that long pass up the sideline and was astounded. A new play! Ever wonder why teams always have those easy open short passes and we never do? Everyone is ALWAYS covered. They know all the fucking plays. That video was really enlightening. We hire one of the "innovative" young minds and get Coughlin part 2. Only the Giants.
RE: They have trouble executing simple  
Patrick77 : 10/27/2016 9:06 pm : link
In comment 13193837 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Imagine if it was complicated.


That's the crazy part. They made it sound like this is a high school offense, how the hell could they not execute?
Gilbride was WAY too complicated!  
widmerseyebrow : 10/27/2016 9:12 pm : link
SIMPLIFICATION! Slants! Swing passes! Screens! YEAH!
RE: So! The Giants fired T.C.  
Britt in VA : 10/27/2016 9:14 pm : link
In comment 13193782 Blackbeard said:
Quote:
so that our rookie H.C. could give us this shit?


They sure did.
RE: They have trouble executing simple  
widmerseyebrow : 10/27/2016 9:17 pm : link
In comment 13193837 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Imagine if it was complicated.


I see your logic, but by extension the simplest playbook would have one play in it. And of course that would be even easier to stop.

A defense that doesn't have to think and can just react is going to disrupt your execution. It's negating the one advantage an offense has besides knowing the snap count.
What I noticed about the analysis  
EricJ : 10/27/2016 9:21 pm : link
was that many of those routes were at the same depth. That also makes it easier to defend.
Mike Sullivan is the f*cking offensive coordinator.  
Big Blue Blogger : 10/27/2016 9:23 pm : link
He owns this mess. Oh, it's not his offense? Well, what exactly is Mike Sullivan's offense? Stuff he picked up sniffing Tom Coughlin's butt while regaling the Maras with tales of his military exploits in Gaelic? He didn't even grow up on that side of the ball. How he ever became an NFL OC is beyond me - let alone how he got a second chance.

I hope McAdoo gives Sullivan an opportunity to call plays. If he does well, that's great. If he bombs, we might be rid of him sooner.
RE: What I noticed about the analysis  
Patrick77 : 10/27/2016 9:23 pm : link
In comment 13193868 EricJ said:
Quote:
was that many of those routes were at the same depth. That also makes it easier to defend.


I assumed that was to clear out zones?
That was such bullshit.  
shelovesnycsports : 10/27/2016 9:26 pm : link
Go back and watch the Cowboys game and the Saints game and the Redskin game and tell me that we were not throwing it all over the field out of the 11 set. The 11 set puts out best players out there and give us the best chance to succeed. You want to run three TEs with our TEs?
You can't run 4 WRs sets with no protection from your line.
This from a team that can't even run a screen pass. Our line is overpowered by 5 guys. Our TEs have no skill at blocking and at times can not even find the right guy to block. I am Sure the other team wants us out of 11 personnel because 11 personnel gives us the best chance for the strength of our team (the WRs) to break a long one.
Our best offensive players are our QB and the three WRs.
Our RBS are horrible at running without a a hole. the only one who can is a Rookie.
Qb has to take what the defense gives him and the Playmakers Odell Cruz and Shepard have to get Yac.
Also the Oline seemed to go to shit after Newhouse got hurt. Not that he was the best but he did have chemistry with Jerry. If you watch the Tapes you can see the breakdowns. Also don't you think Eli has influence in this offense and wants the Three WR package then take horrible his after 3 seconds? Beatty Jerry Newhouse Hart Richberg of late None of those can push a pile. None of them. Flowers and Pughand the other teams see it and thats where they attack. So tell me how a Two tTE set is going to fix that When your TEs block like 5.9 WRs.
Adams is so green he messes up most of the time.
Jennings runs like he pulling a cart. Rainey needs a hole. the Rookie is learning and you want o add more plays so they can mess it up more. Coaching Conservative with this group? Your dammed Right! its why we are 4-3 and should have been 5-2. Solari was brought in to teach Run zone blocking and the players he has don't have the ability to do it.
.  
Danny Kanell : 10/27/2016 9:35 pm : link
Man that was pretty disturbing.
Oh and that Simple Offense  
shelovesnycsports : 10/27/2016 10:15 pm : link
is 6th in the league.
Got the poop emoji too!  
Simms11 : 10/27/2016 10:23 pm : link
Pathetic that a professional team is running an offense like this?!
Hey!  
Bill2 : 10/27/2016 11:01 pm : link
Fire Gillbride because those route trees were way to complex. Too much given the new CBA rules. Too much to expect ELi and any Wonderlics under 35 to be coordinated

Simplify.

Where have we heard this before?

Whats more, remember our successor to Complex Gilbride came from the Green Bay School of Coaching. Except Lombardi ran 2 more plays than we do....a sweep right and a sweep left.

Its been hard football to watch for awhile now
I can't believe  
David B. : 10/27/2016 11:12 pm : link
There isn't a FB out there who's better at FB than Logan Thomas is at QB.
What?  
Doomster : 10/27/2016 11:29 pm : link
Oh and that Simple Offense
shelovesnycsports : 10:15 pm : link : reply
is 6th in the league.


Last time I looked they were tied for 22nd in scoring....you win games on offense with points and time of possession, another thing this offense is pitiful at...
wait a minute  
bobc : 10/28/2016 12:09 am : link
In order to keep the other team from mass defense changes in personnel Eli has been running the no huddle offense a lot. When you are running the no huddle you don't substitute on the offense side so your sets are going to look very similar play to play. I remember Vince Lombardi once saying he could tell the opposition what play he was going to run and if his team executed correctly it would not make a difference. If your Tight End is a joke and you cant run the ball it will limit your offense a lot more than personnel changes. Donnell is a coach killer. He probably has measurable off the hook but he doesn't play smart get him out of there. Running the play well will correct everything wrong with the offense.
wait a minute  
bobc : 10/28/2016 12:10 am : link
"running the ball well" not running the play is what I meant to say my bad.
Shelovesnycsoprts  
EJJ : 10/28/2016 12:16 am : link
Well said totally agree
Doesn't surprise me..  
prdave73 : 10/28/2016 4:10 am : link
Ive said it many times here, didnt like him as an OC and still dont as a HC.. Its a joke. Another screw up by this Giants Org.
You don't say...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/28/2016 7:22 am : link
.
prdave73  
Bob in Vt : 10/28/2016 7:43 am : link
You're right. You have said it many times :)
Doesn't surprise me  
trueblueinpw : 10/28/2016 7:50 am : link
I've read it plenty of times around here, didn't like him as an OC don't like him as a HC. Another screw up by this Giants org.
RE: It actually seemed the same way with Gilbride.  
Montreal Man : 10/28/2016 7:55 am : link
In comment 13193841 Dry Lightning said:
Quote:
It's funny, I remember the Eagles game in I think 2011 when Brandon Jacobs caught that long pass up the sideline and was astounded. A new play! Ever wonder why teams always have those easy open short passes and we never do? Everyone is ALWAYS covered. They know all the fucking plays. That video was really enlightening. We hire one of the "innovative" young minds and get Coughlin part 2. Only the Giants.


I still remember that play. I was shocked. Couldn't believe it was Jacobs. Wha?? Jacobs? Streaking down the sideline? It was wonderful. And made me happy that we did something unusual, unexpected. Haven't been too happy with McAdoo, though. I just pray he gets the offense together because it bores me and is ineffective.
Dave's right  
Montreal Man : 10/28/2016 7:59 am : link
He has said it many times and I remember every time he said it.
RE: Doesn't surprise me..  
Mark C : 10/28/2016 8:06 am : link
In comment 13194059 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Ive said it many times here, didnt like him as an OC and still dont as a HC.. Its a joke. Another screw up by this Giants Org. Aside of Coughlin the lack of quality coaches is baffling. smh..


96% of this thread is prdave73 saying the same damn thing.

Dude, change it up a little. I mean, hang a participle once in a while or something...
Alarming  
hassan : 10/28/2016 8:37 am : link
96% of plays in the same set--next closest team is at 77%. That is ridiculous. Giants are not THAT untalented at te, these players have produced in the past.

Funny, many of this were observing the lack of play diversity, easy to defend, not taking advantage of the other team's lack of healthy cornerbacks. And we heard defense of the Giant's strategy and that we as fans oversimplified.

Now even Simms is getting in the act saying the reason the receivers aren't getting open is the other team knows what's coming. Not the lack of run game or threat at te. That the route trees and combinations are predictable.

This coach is highly unimpressive considering he's supposed to be an offensive mind. To state the obvious....and whether its Sullivan or Macadoo this is an almost unconscionable waste of Manning and Beckham by Giants management.


Holy shit did prdave have a stroke?  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 8:40 am : link
.
Could this be a classic case...  
BillKo : 10/28/2016 8:42 am : link
of an OC who does well when that's his only responsibility, but when he becomes the HC he takes his foot off the pedal?

When you're the HC, there's much more pressure and responsibility and it's not as easy to be daring. You now have to think about all three phases of the game. When you're just the OC, you drive straight ahead and have other factors (mainly the HC) as a check and balance.

This has happened when a lot of OC's become HC...their offense doesn't do as well.
Another big factor to the ineffectiveness of the O  
Tony in Tampa : 10/28/2016 9:09 am : link
Is the loss of Shane Vereen. In Mac's first season he passed to the RBs more, a staple of the WC system. For whatever reason they have stopped throwing the short swing passes to Jennings in the flat. They were obviously going to rely a lot on Vereen. His loss as one of our "weapons" is hugely underrated-particularly for 3rd down conversions.
Mcadoo was assigned with getting Eli's percentages up  
#10* : 10/28/2016 9:17 am : link
I forget if it was 70 or 75. You have to wander if all this dink and donking for five yards even when the play calls for 10 has something to do with it.
McAdoo clearly sucks  
trueblueinpw : 10/28/2016 9:25 am : link
Not saying he can't turn it around and yeah it's a small sample size but McAdoo so far is a disaster. People like Simms are actually laughing at the Giants offense. The Giants radio guys have been talking about the overuse of 11 personnel for the past few games. If the radio guys noticed this (and I'll bet that's where Simms got his notion) then you can bet opposing D-cow noticed it too. Don't give me this line that there's no talent on the line or we don't have any RBs because no team in the NFL has pro bowlers at every spot and pretty much everyone who plays in the NFL is a very talented athlete. What distinguishes most NFL teams winning from losing is coaching. Our coach needs to turn it around really quickly.
You all are missing it....this is a plan by McAdoo to suck people  
Jimmy Googs : 10/28/2016 9:32 am : link
into believing how stale and predictable the Offense is.

Then...just when he thinks everybody has fallen into this lull as to how to Defense us, he will spring all these new formations, designs and plays on the rest of the league.

Probably starting with the Eagles who won't what hit them.

Consider yourself sucked...
Can we bring Tom Coughlin back as the offensive coordinator?  
Brown Recluse : 10/28/2016 9:33 am : link
.
This really reflects the lack of depth on the roster  
Heisenberg : 10/28/2016 9:33 am : link
Can't go two TE, because those guys are both terrible. Lost Will Johnson, who probably would have added a lot of variety to the offense.
RE: You all are missing it....this is a plan by McAdoo to suck people  
Diver_Down : 10/28/2016 9:38 am : link
In comment 13194208 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
...

Consider yourself sucked...


As Giants fans, we already consider ourselves sucked ... for the past couple of years.
Trueblueinpw  
hassan : 10/28/2016 10:00 am : link
Absolutely right.
Trueblue  
hassan : 10/28/2016 11:23 am : link
The line was mostly the same save hart. The backs like Darkwa and Jennings are the same. Rainey and Perkins are new sure. The tight ends are the same.

Receivers are 'new' but better.....

Missing vereen hurts yes.

Still it's a major excuse blaming the talent level. It's complete bs.
I'm a defensive coach,what do you expect  
ghost718 : 10/28/2016 11:38 am : link
RE: Trueblue  
shelovesnycsports : 10/28/2016 11:46 am : link
In comment 13194407 hassan said:
Quote:
The line was mostly the same save hart. The backs like Darkwa and Jennings are the same. Rainey and Perkins are new sure. The tight ends are the same.

Receivers are 'new' but better.....

Missing vereen hurts yes.

Still it's a major excuse blaming the talent level. It's complete bs.

Maybe missing a fullback. We had Whitlock to move the pile last year.
Do you guys watch the games?
Whitlock's not playing?  
trueblueinpw : 10/28/2016 12:10 pm : link
Now that does explain everything. I gotta get a TV before our game this weekend.
Interesting article  
Bluesbreaker : 10/28/2016 12:18 pm : link
adding Jamaal Charles Mercedes Lewis and Seatrell Henderon .
I mean I doubt none of the three are even on the radar
but all three could be had on the cheap .
Lewis is at the end but is wasting away on the jags and
would give a two way TE .
Charles has some left in the tank but he again is a two way
threat .
Henderson would be an immediate upgrade on the right side .
I can't see how we can stand pat with what we have but
I doubt we add anyone the front office seems to be
stubborn in there view of the talent .
She  
hassan : 10/28/2016 6:24 pm : link
I certainly do. Nikita Whitlock is not enough to be this important. They are better certainly at receiver and the overall talent on o is better.

It's mostly scheme.

Please spare me your quotes about being 6th in passing now.
It's just football, not chess or ever will be  
The Tempest : 10/28/2016 7:14 pm : link
Nobody would mention formation if the offense was doing better. Problem is execution not the formation. You don't have to confuse the defense, you have to beat it.

Eleven players and six of them are not replaceable which leaves you with five that can be. Beckham Jr, Cruz, Sheppard, Jennings, Donnell. Veteran backups most likely have the best chance of making an immediate impact on the offense but we don't have enough of them. Harris, Tye, Rainey, Darkwa. It is very tempting to put rookies out there because fans don't know what they can do but you have to trust the coaches to know when a rookie is ready. Lewis, King, Adams, Perkins.

Putting another receiver on the field will not help the offense. Adding another or better blocker will because the Giants need to run the football effectively.
I do sound a bit repetitious, but at least  
prdave73 : 10/28/2016 8:34 pm : link
I stay true to my opinions. I dont bounce around and change my opinion when different things happen. I love my team but i also dont see through the rose colored glasses like some. It bothers me that they keep repeating the same mistakes. Why do the Giants continue to gamble and experiment instead of going with the sure things? Coaches that are proven? They had problems with the system under Coughlin so you fire him and keep the same coaches? It baffles me is all..
The Giants offensive offense  
johnboyw : 10/29/2016 6:41 am : link
Yeah, Simms hit the nail on the head with regard to the Giants offense. The most unimaginative offense in the league. Almost sad to watch. So boring and predictable. No confidence, no swagger, no nothing.
Watching my son's high school game last night and the creative offense they run which kept the defense off balance all night, I kept thinking how is it that a professional team can't be more creative than this? Their standard package is a 5 year toss to the TE on 1st down (50-50 chance of completion), run on 2nd down (usually a 2 year gain) and pass to a WR on 3rd and long assuming they didn't connect on 1st down. And their conversion rate on 3rd and long is woeful.
It appears to me that McAdoo is being overly conservative ( that got Gilbride canned) as though he's trying to out-Coughlin Coughlin. I think he's playing it ultra safe trying not to make a fatal mistake rather than being a little more daring and aggressive in attacking the D. So they rarely sustain a long drive and the defense is on the field for 2/3 of the game.
Not a recipe for a team with playoff aspirations.
I'm with she  
adamg : 10/29/2016 7:59 am : link
I'm giving our offense more time. I think the production is there. Without dropped TD passes, we're 5-2 right now with 3 more TD throws from Eli. Not to mention those misplays by Beckham early in the year.

Also, look at Beckham, Jones, and Brown's game logs. Each of them have huge games between more frequent games of average to poor production. They can be very streaky.

If we can find any level of consistency as a unit and another player can come forward and show they can take the reign when Ds shut down Beckham, we'll be able to string together several consecutive wins. Vereen and Randle, say what you want about Randle, but those guys were able to pile on some TDs. We need someone else to take over that role, hopefully Shepard or Perkins can do that.
Here's whats really frightening  
SethFromAstoria : 10/29/2016 8:45 am : link
our boy Chris here couldn't run an NFL team using this offense....but he can tell us what he knows he thinks he sees...

The other scary thing is how our QB shreds teams with such basic formations. Is he just that good? YEah. Is football perhaps most simple as 1) can the line block? 2) can our D get passed their line?
then there is this...  
SethFromAstoria : 10/29/2016 8:52 am : link
if they go up to the line with a certain package, how many plays can ELi setup from that packaage at the line? Many many many i assume.
This is what I see...  
EricJ : 10/29/2016 8:59 am : link
The opposition knows which plays we run out of this formation.

The opposition also knows what Eli will check down to if we take away some of those options.

Pre-snap, the opposition is forcing Eli to check down to the options that the defense would prefer the Giants run.

We are allowing ourselves to be manipulated.
RE: then there is this...  
adamg : 10/29/2016 10:02 am : link
In comment 13195278 SethFromAstoria said:
Quote:
if they go up to the line with a certain package, how many plays can ELi setup from that packaage at the line? Many many many i assume.


Basic route trees I've found have around 10 routes per receiver, we probably have more than that. So, at least 10x10x10 is a lot of potential permutations. Plus shifting the slot WR, RB, and TE around. It's not as simple on the defense as he makes it sound, especially with a genius D reader like Eli out there.
RE: This is what I see...  
adamg : 10/29/2016 10:03 am : link
In comment 13195285 EricJ said:
Quote:
The opposition knows which plays we run out of this formation.

The opposition also knows what Eli will check down to if we take away some of those options.

Pre-snap, the opposition is forcing Eli to check down to the options that the defense would prefer the Giants run.

We are allowing ourselves to be manipulated.


So, what you're saying is Eli can't read and adjust appropriately to opposing defenses. I don't think that's true at all.
The argument about pre snap reads is legitimate  
Patrick77 : 10/29/2016 10:58 am : link
Teams eventually got to the point where they would play the complicated Gillbride offense in such a way that they "knew" what read and reaction Eli and the WR were supposed to have given their alignment and coverage. To think that in an incredibly simpler offense with less plays being utilized and way way less variation of formations defenses can't do the same is being a little naive.

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