This legitimately has me worried. The overall simplicity of what the Giants are doing on offense is highly concerning and quite honestly mind boggling. I don't recall the offense being this simple last season. Is it McAdoo? Is it a lack of faith in the pass protection? The routes run by the Giants are mastered during high school. I'm shocked at the lack of complimentary routes and the absence of scheming to beat the coverage. This needs to change fast.
2 TEs? I shudder at the thought of trotting Donnell and Tye out there. Sounds sad, but the 3 WR is our best personnel grouping on paper. Gotta trot out the best 11 men, right?
RE: What's the alternative to the 3 WR set w/o a FB?
2 TEs? I shudder at the thought of trotting Donnell and Tye out there. Sounds sad, but the 3 WR is our best personnel grouping on paper. Gotta trot out the best 11 men, right?
Yeah but you can go 4 WR, line up a TE as a FB, go two TE with Adams and Tye and use Donnell in the slot, Beckham inside...the variations are plenty.
Issues in other areas would be a little easier to tolerate.. offense is supposed to be McAdoo's calling card here and we're running the most basic and easy to defend offense in football.
and not entirely clean house was to keep Eli from having to learn yet another offense (Coughlin/Gilbride, Coughlin/McAdoo, new guy). Continuity would let the offense retain its core proficiency and let experienced players -- especially Eli and OBJ -- add wrinkles.
Simms broke it down like it was a joke. I don't understand why it has to be so painfully simple. I do get why the personnel never changes - in a perfect world Donnel and Tye are healthy scratches or free agents.
It's funny, I remember the Eagles game in I think 2011 when Brandon Jacobs caught that long pass up the sideline and was astounded. A new play! Ever wonder why teams always have those easy open short passes and we never do? Everyone is ALWAYS covered. They know all the fucking plays. That video was really enlightening. We hire one of the "innovative" young minds and get Coughlin part 2. Only the Giants.
I see your logic, but by extension the simplest playbook would have one play in it. And of course that would be even easier to stop.
A defense that doesn't have to think and can just react is going to disrupt your execution. It's negating the one advantage an offense has besides knowing the snap count.
He owns this mess. Oh, it's not his offense? Well, what exactly is Mike Sullivan's offense? Stuff he picked up sniffing Tom Coughlin's butt while regaling the Maras with tales of his military exploits in Gaelic? He didn't even grow up on that side of the ball. How he ever became an NFL OC is beyond me - let alone how he got a second chance.
I hope McAdoo gives Sullivan an opportunity to call plays. If he does well, that's great. If he bombs, we might be rid of him sooner.
Go back and watch the Cowboys game and the Saints game and the Redskin game and tell me that we were not throwing it all over the field out of the 11 set. The 11 set puts out best players out there and give us the best chance to succeed. You want to run three TEs with our TEs?
You can't run 4 WRs sets with no protection from your line.
This from a team that can't even run a screen pass. Our line is overpowered by 5 guys. Our TEs have no skill at blocking and at times can not even find the right guy to block. I am Sure the other team wants us out of 11 personnel because 11 personnel gives us the best chance for the strength of our team (the WRs) to break a long one.
Our best offensive players are our QB and the three WRs.
Our RBS are horrible at running without a a hole. the only one who can is a Rookie.
Qb has to take what the defense gives him and the Playmakers Odell Cruz and Shepard have to get Yac.
Also the Oline seemed to go to shit after Newhouse got hurt. Not that he was the best but he did have chemistry with Jerry. If you watch the Tapes you can see the breakdowns. Also don't you think Eli has influence in this offense and wants the Three WR package then take horrible his after 3 seconds? Beatty Jerry Newhouse Hart Richberg of late None of those can push a pile. None of them. Flowers and Pughand the other teams see it and thats where they attack. So tell me how a Two tTE set is going to fix that When your TEs block like 5.9 WRs.
Adams is so green he messes up most of the time.
Jennings runs like he pulling a cart. Rainey needs a hole. the Rookie is learning and you want o add more plays so they can mess it up more. Coaching Conservative with this group? Your dammed Right! its why we are 4-3 and should have been 5-2. Solari was brought in to teach Run zone blocking and the players he has don't have the ability to do it.
Fire Gillbride because those route trees were way to complex. Too much given the new CBA rules. Too much to expect ELi and any Wonderlics under 35 to be coordinated
Simplify.
Where have we heard this before?
Whats more, remember our successor to Complex Gilbride came from the Green Bay School of Coaching. Except Lombardi ran 2 more plays than we do....a sweep right and a sweep left.
Oh and that Simple Offense
shelovesnycsports : 10:15 pm : link : reply
is 6th in the league.
Last time I looked they were tied for 22nd in scoring....you win games on offense with points and time of possession, another thing this offense is pitiful at...
In order to keep the other team from mass defense changes in personnel Eli has been running the no huddle offense a lot. When you are running the no huddle you don't substitute on the offense side so your sets are going to look very similar play to play. I remember Vince Lombardi once saying he could tell the opposition what play he was going to run and if his team executed correctly it would not make a difference. If your Tight End is a joke and you cant run the ball it will limit your offense a lot more than personnel changes. Donnell is a coach killer. He probably has measurable off the hook but he doesn't play smart get him out of there. Running the play well will correct everything wrong with the offense.
It's funny, I remember the Eagles game in I think 2011 when Brandon Jacobs caught that long pass up the sideline and was astounded. A new play! Ever wonder why teams always have those easy open short passes and we never do? Everyone is ALWAYS covered. They know all the fucking plays. That video was really enlightening. We hire one of the "innovative" young minds and get Coughlin part 2. Only the Giants.
I still remember that play. I was shocked. Couldn't believe it was Jacobs. Wha?? Jacobs? Streaking down the sideline? It was wonderful. And made me happy that we did something unusual, unexpected. Haven't been too happy with McAdoo, though. I just pray he gets the offense together because it bores me and is ineffective.
Ive said it many times here, didnt like him as an OC and still dont as a HC.. Its a joke. Another screw up by this Giants Org. Aside of Coughlin the lack of quality coaches is baffling. smh..
96% of this thread is prdave73 saying the same damn thing.
Dude, change it up a little. I mean, hang a participle once in a while or something...
96% of plays in the same set--next closest team is at 77%. That is ridiculous. Giants are not THAT untalented at te, these players have produced in the past.
Funny, many of this were observing the lack of play diversity, easy to defend, not taking advantage of the other team's lack of healthy cornerbacks. And we heard defense of the Giant's strategy and that we as fans oversimplified.
Now even Simms is getting in the act saying the reason the receivers aren't getting open is the other team knows what's coming. Not the lack of run game or threat at te. That the route trees and combinations are predictable.
This coach is highly unimpressive considering he's supposed to be an offensive mind. To state the obvious....and whether its Sullivan or Macadoo this is an almost unconscionable waste of Manning and Beckham by Giants management.
of an OC who does well when that's his only responsibility, but when he becomes the HC he takes his foot off the pedal?
When you're the HC, there's much more pressure and responsibility and it's not as easy to be daring. You now have to think about all three phases of the game. When you're just the OC, you drive straight ahead and have other factors (mainly the HC) as a check and balance.
This has happened when a lot of OC's become HC...their offense doesn't do as well.
Another big factor to the ineffectiveness of the O
Is the loss of Shane Vereen. In Mac's first season he passed to the RBs more, a staple of the WC system. For whatever reason they have stopped throwing the short swing passes to Jennings in the flat. They were obviously going to rely a lot on Vereen. His loss as one of our "weapons" is hugely underrated-particularly for 3rd down conversions.
Mcadoo was assigned with getting Eli's percentages up
I forget if it was 70 or 75. You have to wander if all this dink and donking for five yards even when the play calls for 10 has something to do with it.
Not saying he can't turn it around and yeah it's a small sample size but McAdoo so far is a disaster. People like Simms are actually laughing at the Giants offense. The Giants radio guys have been talking about the overuse of 11 personnel for the past few games. If the radio guys noticed this (and I'll bet that's where Simms got his notion) then you can bet opposing D-cow noticed it too. Don't give me this line that there's no talent on the line or we don't have any RBs because no team in the NFL has pro bowlers at every spot and pretty much everyone who plays in the NFL is a very talented athlete. What distinguishes most NFL teams winning from losing is coaching. Our coach needs to turn it around really quickly.
You all are missing it....this is a plan by McAdoo to suck people
into believing how stale and predictable the Offense is.
Then...just when he thinks everybody has fallen into this lull as to how to Defense us, he will spring all these new formations, designs and plays on the rest of the league.
Probably starting with the Eagles who won't what hit them.
Consider yourself sucked...
Can we bring Tom Coughlin back as the offensive coordinator?
adding Jamaal Charles Mercedes Lewis and Seatrell Henderon .
I mean I doubt none of the three are even on the radar
but all three could be had on the cheap .
Lewis is at the end but is wasting away on the jags and
would give a two way TE .
Charles has some left in the tank but he again is a two way
threat .
Henderson would be an immediate upgrade on the right side .
I can't see how we can stand pat with what we have but
I doubt we add anyone the front office seems to be
stubborn in there view of the talent .
Nobody would mention formation if the offense was doing better. Problem is execution not the formation. You don't have to confuse the defense, you have to beat it.
Eleven players and six of them are not replaceable which leaves you with five that can be. Beckham Jr, Cruz, Sheppard, Jennings, Donnell. Veteran backups most likely have the best chance of making an immediate impact on the offense but we don't have enough of them. Harris, Tye, Rainey, Darkwa. It is very tempting to put rookies out there because fans don't know what they can do but you have to trust the coaches to know when a rookie is ready. Lewis, King, Adams, Perkins.
Putting another receiver on the field will not help the offense. Adding another or better blocker will because the Giants need to run the football effectively.
I stay true to my opinions. I dont bounce around and change my opinion when different things happen. I love my team but i also dont see through the rose colored glasses like some. It bothers me that they keep repeating the same mistakes. Why do the Giants continue to gamble and experiment instead of going with the sure things? Coaches that are proven? They had problems with the system under Coughlin so you fire him and keep the same coaches? It baffles me is all..
Yeah, Simms hit the nail on the head with regard to the Giants offense. The most unimaginative offense in the league. Almost sad to watch. So boring and predictable. No confidence, no swagger, no nothing.
Watching my son's high school game last night and the creative offense they run which kept the defense off balance all night, I kept thinking how is it that a professional team can't be more creative than this? Their standard package is a 5 year toss to the TE on 1st down (50-50 chance of completion), run on 2nd down (usually a 2 year gain) and pass to a WR on 3rd and long assuming they didn't connect on 1st down. And their conversion rate on 3rd and long is woeful.
It appears to me that McAdoo is being overly conservative ( that got Gilbride canned) as though he's trying to out-Coughlin Coughlin. I think he's playing it ultra safe trying not to make a fatal mistake rather than being a little more daring and aggressive in attacking the D. So they rarely sustain a long drive and the defense is on the field for 2/3 of the game.
Not a recipe for a team with playoff aspirations.
I'm giving our offense more time. I think the production is there. Without dropped TD passes, we're 5-2 right now with 3 more TD throws from Eli. Not to mention those misplays by Beckham early in the year.
Also, look at Beckham, Jones, and Brown's game logs. Each of them have huge games between more frequent games of average to poor production. They can be very streaky.
If we can find any level of consistency as a unit and another player can come forward and show they can take the reign when Ds shut down Beckham, we'll be able to string together several consecutive wins. Vereen and Randle, say what you want about Randle, but those guys were able to pile on some TDs. We need someone else to take over that role, hopefully Shepard or Perkins can do that.
our boy Chris here couldn't run an NFL team using this offense....but he can tell us what he knows he thinks he sees...
The other scary thing is how our QB shreds teams with such basic formations. Is he just that good? YEah. Is football perhaps most simple as 1) can the line block? 2) can our D get passed their line?
if they go up to the line with a certain package, how many plays can ELi setup from that packaage at the line? Many many many i assume.
Basic route trees I've found have around 10 routes per receiver, we probably have more than that. So, at least 10x10x10 is a lot of potential permutations. Plus shifting the slot WR, RB, and TE around. It's not as simple on the defense as he makes it sound, especially with a genius D reader like Eli out there.
Teams eventually got to the point where they would play the complicated Gillbride offense in such a way that they "knew" what read and reaction Eli and the WR were supposed to have given their alignment and coverage. To think that in an incredibly simpler offense with less plays being utilized and way way less variation of formations defenses can't do the same is being a little naive.
Look at Will Tye in the Redskins game. 1-1 and he just gave up on the route leading to a costly interception.
Sterling Shepard against Baltimore on the interception, yeah it shoulda been flagged for interference but it was a one on one match up and he lost.
I can see why every pass Eli throws is a 50-50 ball.
So... WTF?
Huge menu and you order the same goop every time.
Althought General Tso's and some dumplings is way more satisfying than watching this Giants offense.
Not that that's an excuse.
That's the crazy part. They made it sound like this is a high school offense, how the hell could they not execute?
They sure did.
I see your logic, but by extension the simplest playbook would have one play in it. And of course that would be even easier to stop.
A defense that doesn't have to think and can just react is going to disrupt your execution. It's negating the one advantage an offense has besides knowing the snap count.
I hope McAdoo gives Sullivan an opportunity to call plays. If he does well, that's great. If he bombs, we might be rid of him sooner.
I assumed that was to clear out zones?
You can't run 4 WRs sets with no protection from your line.
This from a team that can't even run a screen pass. Our line is overpowered by 5 guys. Our TEs have no skill at blocking and at times can not even find the right guy to block. I am Sure the other team wants us out of 11 personnel because 11 personnel gives us the best chance for the strength of our team (the WRs) to break a long one.
Our best offensive players are our QB and the three WRs.
Our RBS are horrible at running without a a hole. the only one who can is a Rookie.
Qb has to take what the defense gives him and the Playmakers Odell Cruz and Shepard have to get Yac.
Also the Oline seemed to go to shit after Newhouse got hurt. Not that he was the best but he did have chemistry with Jerry. If you watch the Tapes you can see the breakdowns. Also don't you think Eli has influence in this offense and wants the Three WR package then take horrible his after 3 seconds? Beatty Jerry Newhouse Hart Richberg of late None of those can push a pile. None of them. Flowers and Pughand the other teams see it and thats where they attack. So tell me how a Two tTE set is going to fix that When your TEs block like 5.9 WRs.
Adams is so green he messes up most of the time.
Jennings runs like he pulling a cart. Rainey needs a hole. the Rookie is learning and you want o add more plays so they can mess it up more. Coaching Conservative with this group? Your dammed Right! its why we are 4-3 and should have been 5-2. Solari was brought in to teach Run zone blocking and the players he has don't have the ability to do it.
Simplify.
Where have we heard this before?
Whats more, remember our successor to Complex Gilbride came from the Green Bay School of Coaching. Except Lombardi ran 2 more plays than we do....a sweep right and a sweep left.
Its been hard football to watch for awhile now
shelovesnycsports : 10:15 pm : link : reply
is 6th in the league.
Last time I looked they were tied for 22nd in scoring....you win games on offense with points and time of possession, another thing this offense is pitiful at...
I still remember that play. I was shocked. Couldn't believe it was Jacobs. Wha?? Jacobs? Streaking down the sideline? It was wonderful. And made me happy that we did something unusual, unexpected. Haven't been too happy with McAdoo, though. I just pray he gets the offense together because it bores me and is ineffective.
96% of this thread is prdave73 saying the same damn thing.
Dude, change it up a little. I mean, hang a participle once in a while or something...
Funny, many of this were observing the lack of play diversity, easy to defend, not taking advantage of the other team's lack of healthy cornerbacks. And we heard defense of the Giant's strategy and that we as fans oversimplified.
Now even Simms is getting in the act saying the reason the receivers aren't getting open is the other team knows what's coming. Not the lack of run game or threat at te. That the route trees and combinations are predictable.
This coach is highly unimpressive considering he's supposed to be an offensive mind. To state the obvious....and whether its Sullivan or Macadoo this is an almost unconscionable waste of Manning and Beckham by Giants management.
When you're the HC, there's much more pressure and responsibility and it's not as easy to be daring. You now have to think about all three phases of the game. When you're just the OC, you drive straight ahead and have other factors (mainly the HC) as a check and balance.
This has happened when a lot of OC's become HC...their offense doesn't do as well.
Then...just when he thinks everybody has fallen into this lull as to how to Defense us, he will spring all these new formations, designs and plays on the rest of the league.
Probably starting with the Eagles who won't what hit them.
Consider yourself sucked...
Consider yourself sucked...
As Giants fans, we already consider ourselves sucked ... for the past couple of years.
Receivers are 'new' but better.....
Missing vereen hurts yes.
Still it's a major excuse blaming the talent level. It's complete bs.
Receivers are 'new' but better.....
Missing vereen hurts yes.
Still it's a major excuse blaming the talent level. It's complete bs.
Maybe missing a fullback. We had Whitlock to move the pile last year.
Do you guys watch the games?
I mean I doubt none of the three are even on the radar
but all three could be had on the cheap .
Lewis is at the end but is wasting away on the jags and
would give a two way TE .
Charles has some left in the tank but he again is a two way
threat .
Henderson would be an immediate upgrade on the right side .
I can't see how we can stand pat with what we have but
I doubt we add anyone the front office seems to be
stubborn in there view of the talent .
It's mostly scheme.
Please spare me your quotes about being 6th in passing now.
Eleven players and six of them are not replaceable which leaves you with five that can be. Beckham Jr, Cruz, Sheppard, Jennings, Donnell. Veteran backups most likely have the best chance of making an immediate impact on the offense but we don't have enough of them. Harris, Tye, Rainey, Darkwa. It is very tempting to put rookies out there because fans don't know what they can do but you have to trust the coaches to know when a rookie is ready. Lewis, King, Adams, Perkins.
Putting another receiver on the field will not help the offense. Adding another or better blocker will because the Giants need to run the football effectively.
Watching my son's high school game last night and the creative offense they run which kept the defense off balance all night, I kept thinking how is it that a professional team can't be more creative than this? Their standard package is a 5 year toss to the TE on 1st down (50-50 chance of completion), run on 2nd down (usually a 2 year gain) and pass to a WR on 3rd and long assuming they didn't connect on 1st down. And their conversion rate on 3rd and long is woeful.
It appears to me that McAdoo is being overly conservative ( that got Gilbride canned) as though he's trying to out-Coughlin Coughlin. I think he's playing it ultra safe trying not to make a fatal mistake rather than being a little more daring and aggressive in attacking the D. So they rarely sustain a long drive and the defense is on the field for 2/3 of the game.
Not a recipe for a team with playoff aspirations.
Also, look at Beckham, Jones, and Brown's game logs. Each of them have huge games between more frequent games of average to poor production. They can be very streaky.
If we can find any level of consistency as a unit and another player can come forward and show they can take the reign when Ds shut down Beckham, we'll be able to string together several consecutive wins. Vereen and Randle, say what you want about Randle, but those guys were able to pile on some TDs. We need someone else to take over that role, hopefully Shepard or Perkins can do that.
The other scary thing is how our QB shreds teams with such basic formations. Is he just that good? YEah. Is football perhaps most simple as 1) can the line block? 2) can our D get passed their line?
The opposition also knows what Eli will check down to if we take away some of those options.
Pre-snap, the opposition is forcing Eli to check down to the options that the defense would prefer the Giants run.
We are allowing ourselves to be manipulated.
Basic route trees I've found have around 10 routes per receiver, we probably have more than that. So, at least 10x10x10 is a lot of potential permutations. Plus shifting the slot WR, RB, and TE around. It's not as simple on the defense as he makes it sound, especially with a genius D reader like Eli out there.
The opposition also knows what Eli will check down to if we take away some of those options.
Pre-snap, the opposition is forcing Eli to check down to the options that the defense would prefer the Giants run.
We are allowing ourselves to be manipulated.
So, what you're saying is Eli can't read and adjust appropriately to opposing defenses. I don't think that's true at all.