for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Great Blue North Draft Report: Giants bye week review

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/28/2016 7:55 am
Good read from Colin...
Giants bye week review - ( New Window )
So Colin confirms  
section125 : 10/28/2016 8:11 am : link
what we have all seen.

I thought I saw that the routes were bunching receivers together making it easy to cover - two DBs covering 3 guys.

And yes Donnell has to go.
Colin  
SCGiantsFan : 10/28/2016 8:19 am : link
Hopefully, the staff see things the same way you do. It is not that hard to see as an average fan. Appreciate your review. Keep up the good work.
I don't completely agree with everything  
UberAlias : 10/28/2016 8:20 am : link
But I could not agree more about using 4-WR sets. TEs and RBs are a weakness on this team and WR depth is arguably a strength. Who wouldn't take Lewis or King matched up with opponents #4 cover guy over one of our TEs?
At least they agree with us....  
LarmerTJR : 10/28/2016 8:21 am : link
From the article:

"Bottom line it’s just not that hard to make the case that the most effective base offense for the Giants to run is likely going to be a 4-receiver set. In fact, it is really perplexing why they haven’t run any 4-WR sets at all this year. Even on 3rd and longs all they have done is flex one of their TEs out wide and had him running routes literally as an extra WR. If you are going to do that why not use an actual WR there who can actually run and catch! Meanwhile, we wouldn’t be the first to suggest that the Giants’ TEs – and especially designated starter Larry Donnell who just may be the worst starter if not the worst player in the league period – are contributing next to nothing on other downs too."

Agree with the last part  
ryanmkeane : 10/28/2016 8:30 am : link
about Beckham playing opposite a 8-10 yard CB. Just throw it to him directly after the snap and that's a 6 yard gain at least. Will lead to 2nd and short, and get Eli in some rhythm at least!
I'd say that is  
NikkiMac : 10/28/2016 8:32 am : link
Spot on ... you know I got murdered on this forum because I suggested we use D Harris more as a matter of fact he should be one of the captains on the team for his physical style of play bring some tough guy attitude to the offense !
Hits the nail on the head squarely  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 8:32 am : link
That Rainey play drove me nuts when I saw it the first time, and each time I watched it again I kept asking myself what possible positive outcome they saw that play having.

Maybe we weren't looking at McAdoo's offense up until now, maybe it was just a McAdoo flavored Coughlin offense, and with TC gone he just can't keep up. The excuses about the OL, the lack of a TE - those were both the case last year, if anything the OL has improved since then and we've improved at WR. This should not be happening.
That is  
NikkiMac : 10/28/2016 8:34 am : link
What they miss and lack since Brandon Jacobs !
Basically agree with everything Colin wrote in article.  
Jimmy Googs : 10/28/2016 8:51 am : link
Particularly noteworthy...

- how Eli has not been the same since that hit by Redskins in the middle of that game
- how Donnell should have been left in London
- that we need a change in RBs getting snaps

Dwayne Harris....  
BillKo : 10/28/2016 8:51 am : link
he's not the best WR, but he can serve a purpose.

It's almost like McAdoo is buried in that chart and can't react on the fly.

This guy should be getting some touches IMO every game.

If we don't see any changes coming out of the break, I will be highly dissapointed in BM.

I'm not saying he's a bust, but his first year will be very uninspiring as an offensive mind.
I agree  
NikkiMac : 10/28/2016 8:56 am : link
And maybe they need to reevaluate this WR coach Adam Henry he may be in over his head
Nice article  
trueblueinpw : 10/28/2016 9:06 am : link
Reading this makes my blood boil! What in the world is wrong with McAdoo? 11 personnel for 96% of the plays! Our TEs are garbage and yet we run a personnel package which includes a TE for almost every single play this pathetic offense runs. How in the world does this make sense to anyone on the Giants coaching staff? Couldnt agree more about Dwayne Harris. Another head scratcher.

So far, McAdoo is a complete disaster. I think jcn above might be right that McAdoo misses TCs influence in game planning.

Hope I'm wrong, but this might be yet another wasted year for Eli. If we're out of the hunt by losing to the Bears and the Browns, and don't think for a minute that can't happen, then ownership better back up the truck and start over from the FO right on down.
RE: Hits the nail on the head squarely  
BillKo : 10/28/2016 9:07 am : link
In comment 13194112 jcn56 said:
Quote:
That Rainey play drove me nuts when I saw it the first time, and each time I watched it again I kept asking myself what possible positive outcome they saw that play having.

Maybe we weren't looking at McAdoo's offense up until now, maybe it was just a McAdoo flavored Coughlin offense, and with TC gone he just can't keep up. The excuses about the OL, the lack of a TE - those were both the case last year, if anything the OL has improved since then and we've improved at WR. This should not be happening.


Along with that, the quick toss to OBJ in the backfield...totally telegraphed.

To me, that play is probably a microcosm of what teams are seeing on tape.

Easy to diagnose.
How open would Shep or Cruz have been  
Jimmy Googs : 10/28/2016 9:11 am : link
if Eli pump faked that toss to OBJ in backfield, and then fired one downfield?

I am guessing wide open...
Googs  
old man : 10/28/2016 9:29 am : link
I said that yesterday! Twice they run that play,that I remember, and thinking a pump fake draws down the D lower by a step at least and going the wrong way while our receivers are hopefully getting open. Never ran it again.
So...  
DonQuixote : 10/28/2016 9:32 am : link
We are getting out coached. I agree. It's a bummer and I hope it improves.
It's a reach to conclude that McAdoo is a  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/28/2016 9:38 am : link
complete disaster, when the Giants are 4-3 after playing 7 teams with a combined winning record 20% higher than average.

But I really hope that they start giving us a better offensive performance in the second half. There is every reason to believe that they should be able to do it.

The biggest problem in my book is not that the Offense plays out of the same set so much, similar sets can be used in varied ways and still allow for deceptions. It's the miscues and the constant shooting themselves in the foot that's bothering me. They have way too many drive-killing plays/turnovers to start the game.

I don't care if Donnell is the best TE on the roster. If the guy comes out and turns the ball over on the second play of the game -- you have to frikken bench him - especially if he's done it in prior games. This is one place Coughlin got it right -- no fumbling allowed.! You fumble and you're not going to frikken play, and we're going to drill you on high and tight - not these stupid Duke exercises.

Where McAdoo has failed in my opinion is in his message, " Sound, smart, and tough, committed to discipline and poise." I think the team has got some of the message, but not all of it. It gets garbled after you finish the terms "sound, smart and tough." There are 13 syllables up there. My old boss Henry Stern would go crazy over that alone. You need a sharper message with many fewer syllables that the team can hold onto. He always advocated that a message had to be two - and if not two no more than three or four syllables.

If McAdoo's message is not clear -- it may be that his game plan, and other aspects of what he and his offensive coaches teach and expect of the players is not clear either. That would certainly explain why they are tripping over themselves. A lot is made of the Giant play board he brings to the sideline -- if he has all those plays and is sticking to the same set 96% of the time -- then he is clearly wasting a lot of time and message in the preparation alone.

Focus dude -- focus the team, focus the message, and focus the game plan. And bench anyone who can't focus.

Wouldn't it be great if the Giants came out if the second half - more crisp and focused and with a chip on their shoulders - and they started blowing out some teams like we all think they should be able to - ?????




Eli  
old man : 10/28/2016 10:06 am : link
Has only been comfortable with his OL from about 2006 through 2010.
2004 OL was brutal, '05 was better with Diehl and Snee, '06 he started feeling comfortable while they were still building the power OL, '07 added McKenzie and he started to get good confidence with it, and a SB. '08-'09 were good. 2010 we could see the decline start on the OL due to injury,age. 2011 was a further decline and JRs project replacements, and ELI carrying them to another SB. We all saw the 2012 OL debacle, and more projects and patch working the OL.2013-2015 there were OL high picks, jury still out on quality(but on obvious back step by WR, and EF doesn't seem to be an LT((but probably a good RT)). And here we are and ANY other QB would also be scared back there.
When you saw his 2003 at Ole Miss, you saw what EA saw in him.
Now, such a waste of talent because he almost always has felt pressured.
Are wr the routes  
Pete in MD : 10/28/2016 10:16 am : link
called on the sidelines always or are the receivers also screwing up? I know Gilbride was given crap because of his confusing route trees but most pro offenses include multiple route options in each play where he wr has to read the defense and run the correct route.
RE: It's a reach to conclude that McAdoo is a  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 10:23 am : link
In comment 13194218 gidiefor said:
Quote:
complete disaster, when the Giants are 4-3 after playing 7 teams with a combined winning record 20% higher than average.

But I really hope that they start giving us a better offensive performance in the second half. There is every reason to believe that they should be able to do it.

The biggest problem in my book is not that the Offense plays out of the same set so much, similar sets can be used in varied ways and still allow for deceptions. It's the miscues and the constant shooting themselves in the foot that's bothering me. They have way too many drive-killing plays/turnovers to start the game.

I don't care if Donnell is the best TE on the roster. If the guy comes out and turns the ball over on the second play of the game -- you have to frikken bench him - especially if he's done it in prior games. This is one place Coughlin got it right -- no fumbling allowed.! You fumble and you're not going to frikken play, and we're going to drill you on high and tight - not these stupid Duke exercises.

Where McAdoo has failed in my opinion is in his message, " Sound, smart, and tough, committed to discipline and poise." I think the team has got some of the message, but not all of it. It gets garbled after you finish the terms "sound, smart and tough." There are 13 syllables up there. My old boss Henry Stern would go crazy over that alone. You need a sharper message with many fewer syllables that the team can hold onto. He always advocated that a message had to be two - and if not two no more than three or four syllables.

If McAdoo's message is not clear -- it may be that his game plan, and other aspects of what he and his offensive coaches teach and expect of the players is not clear either. That would certainly explain why they are tripping over themselves. A lot is made of the Giant play board he brings to the sideline -- if he has all those plays and is sticking to the same set 96% of the time -- then he is clearly wasting a lot of time and message in the preparation alone.

Focus dude -- focus the team, focus the message, and focus the game plan. And bench anyone who can't focus.

Wouldn't it be great if the Giants came out if the second half - more crisp and focused and with a chip on their shoulders - and they started blowing out some teams like we all think they should be able to - ?????





Not true - the offensive performance has been inconsistent and plagued with poor playcalling, bad execution and sloppy mistakes. The defense has been carrying the team.

While BM as the HC gets credit for the overall performance, he's largely responsible for the offense. And that offense has both regressed and underperformed in a bad way.

The good news is that he's new at this, so he's got room to improve. I hope that he looks at this as an opportunity to change for the better, to seek direction from outside and make whatever changes he can to get this thing going. He's said as much, so I'm confident that's the case. If not, we're in for another long and painful season.
giddie, agree and disagree...  
trueblueinpw : 10/28/2016 10:48 am : link
Agree that its way too soon and the record is too good to pronounce McAdoo a total disaster. That was silly, mea culpa.

But disagree that McAdoo's message is the problem. I think McAdoo has the message part of the job down pretty good. In fact, with the OBJ drama and the Josh Brown mess, neither of which you can really point to McAdoo as being the cause, he handled the situations pretty darn well. He ran a good training camp and off season program. He's clearly committed, works hard, comes prepared and he's certainly got all the coach communication part down. The players are saying all the right things and that does come from the coach on down. He's not a disaster and it was foolish of me to write that.

However, my concern about McAdoo is that the Xs and Os of the game and the in-game management seem to be beyond McAdoo's demonstrated capacity. Again, its too soon to really know for sure, but he doesn't seem to be very good at game planning and he doesn't seem to be very good at game management and he doesn't seem to be making any in-game adjustments.

Hate to keep harping on it, but the 11 personnel thing is a real head scratcher. The play calling and play design has been abysmal. Its true the execution isn't there, but I can't help but to think that's because defenses basically have our offense figured out.
I think one of two things is either the case here  
jcn56 : 10/28/2016 11:10 am : link
BM might be the kind of guy who's a good coordinator but not HC material (Peter Principle). He's in over his head, and just can't operate at that level.

...or...

He's been trying to carry the offensive playcalling/design while also managing the rest of the team, and the workload is simply too much. If this is the case, he needs to offload some of that work pronto and get back to where they were last year before it's too late.
Googs we might not agree on everything  
Bluesbreaker : 10/28/2016 11:53 am : link
How open would Shep or Cruz have been
Jimmy Googs : 9:11 am : link : reply
if Eli pump faked that toss to OBJ in backfield, and then fired one downfield?

I am guessing wide open...

But your exactly right OBJ especially that play is the
perfect Decoy for play action .
They did just what i said they would do OBJ is there
biggest concern so you know they are gonna bite on him
getting the ball . It was so telegraphed and they did nothing
in the game that would have set up the play . I mean you
have to use OBJ a couple of times in the backfield to
get them thinking .
Sullivan is the disaster  
BlueHurricane : 10/28/2016 1:08 pm : link
Dude should never have been hired.
Eli  
Dragon : 10/28/2016 2:00 pm : link
Starts with and ends with Eli, he is not playing well and the offense even when OBJ went crazy was very erratic. You can blame everyone on the offense but Eli is guy making the bad throws even if he is going to get hit. All receivers are trained to catch the ball even when the big hit is coming. What about the QB stand in there make the throws don't bail out. Look at the numbers he is well below average in sacks and hits but I'Mm sure well above average on very simple missed open receivers.

This team needs Eli but not this scared version who makes this offense look very lost and perplexed. We all know Eli is not a high accuracy guy but this Eli is running for a way out the minute the ball is in his hands. The film does not lie he is desperate to kill the play once his first option is taken away. Not sure how you fix this problem since the offense starts with but something has to be done, they will not win many games if this continues. He is the highest paid player on this team for a reason however right now he is not making those around him special players.
RE: Googs we might not agree on everything  
Jimmy Googs : 10/28/2016 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13194457 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
How open would Shep or Cruz have been
Jimmy Googs : 9:11 am : link : reply
if Eli pump faked that toss to OBJ in backfield, and then fired one downfield?

I am guessing wide open...

But your exactly right OBJ especially that play is the
perfect Decoy for play action .
They did just what i said they would do OBJ is there
biggest concern so you know they are gonna bite on him
getting the ball . It was so telegraphed and they did nothing
in the game that would have set up the play . I mean you
have to use OBJ a couple of times in the backfield to
get them thinking .


How come you don't agree with everything? :-)
McAdoo may evolve and become much better  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/28/2016 2:11 pm : link
But his hiring was another ownership blinder IMO. Like he was so special and innovative. Well he's got total offensive control and I put and the reality is he's not been anything short of average to below average as an offensive coordinator which is what he still is.

And as far as the D it doesn't seem like he has any input so his hiring is looking like the fam me they it really was.
A good read  
hassan : 10/28/2016 7:28 pm : link
In particular for those who are looking to excuse Mcadoo for a lack of talent. It's the game plan and the x and o's primarily.
Excellent read, especially the suggestion  
CT Charlie : 10/28/2016 8:15 pm : link
that the Giants study the Patriots receivers' routes. They criss-cross on every play, but the Pats never get called for an illegal pick. Clearly they practice them to perfection, so they're barely legal every time.
So Eli got hurt in the Skins game ?  
shelovesnycsports : 10/29/2016 12:07 am : link
That would explain why he didn't want to be hit in the next two games. (Especially the Vikings game.
That's why Johnson was signed. No one trust Nassib.
After reading that...  
M.S. : 10/29/2016 6:23 am : link

...almost makes you want to line up Will Beatty as strictly an in-line blocking TE; go with a 4-receiver set and empty backfield and just throw 90% of the time.

In any event, very glad to be 4-3 at the break, with only the Washington game being a frustrating coulda, woulda, shoulda. The other two losses weren't close, whereas the Dallas, Saints, Ravens and Rams games were touch-and-go and could have gone in the loss column.

So, where does that leave the Giants on their bye week? Exactly where they were when they started the 2016 Football Season -- a work-in-progress; a team that has made strides on defense; and a team that needs at least one more off-season of Free Agents and a Draft to be a serious playoff contender.

Patience BBIers... this team needs more time beyond the remaining games in 2016.



Pretty simplistic stuff  
joeinpa : 10/29/2016 8:12 am : link
Presented. by Collin. Hard to believe that a professional coaching staff wouldn t see and implement these ideas if it was that simple.

Unless you believe they are myopic about their system that they can t see the forest for the trees, Colin s post just seems like more of fans not knowing what they don t know.
Everything is connected.  
bigfish703 : 10/29/2016 2:22 pm : link
For example, the pass-action plays that several of you are asking for only work if the defense fears the run. With our anemic running, the defense has nothing to fear on that account.

What stands out to me is how ineffectual the OL's run blocking has been. Consistently, when the ball carrier reaches the line there is no hole there. Our linemen are just not good at run blocking although they are OK at pass protection.

Jennings & Darkwa are straight-ahead running backs & if the expected opening is not there, they are usually stymied. Rainey & Perkins however have the vision & shiftiness to see & take advantage of holes opening in other places. Their problem is that they cannot be trusted to pick up blitzes & therefore they pose a danger to Eli's health whenever they need to pass block.

I see no solution to this quandry except to get a Bradshaw-type back thru FA or the draft. Jamaal Charles anyone?

As for the tight ends, everyone knows that Donnell is a terrible blocker & too often drops the ball or fumbles. Then why is he out there so often? I do not know why they do not use rookie TE Jerell Adams more. He is reputed to be a good "& willing" blocker. He cannot be worse than Donnell. Do the Giant coaches expect Donnell to get better? If so, their attitude reminds me of that old saw that one definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing & expecting to get different results. Why not use Adams more often & even use him as a FB once in a while?

In conclusion, I believe that the Giants may need one more year of a good draft & a few FA pick-ups to fix their offense, altho for the life of me I do not understand why they have not obtained one of many excellent drive-blocking offensive linemen who have been on the market this season.

As an older fan, I have more & more come to the conclusion that football coaches & front office personnel are not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. Despite the billions of $s involved in pro football, it is not rocket science.
Because niether one of us is always right ...  
Bluesbreaker : 10/29/2016 5:55 pm : link
If Mac wants to keep a tight end on the field the entire
game then . Go get Mercedes Lewis or Antonio Gates .
At least you get a competent Player Lewis has always
been a decent blocker as well . Jags are going nowhere
fast . Also give me Thomas or Staley . Get the damn run game
going and take the heat off Eli as well as Flowers .
I am seriously terrified that Philly is going to rout us
and I am tired of the Team Wasting the best QB we have
ever had ..
Phily  
blue42 : 10/29/2016 9:20 pm : link
isn't routing us....we can play good defense against them.

Get Perkins in there....use motion with the wr's.....Jerrel Adams
should be ready to go soon.
Well  
Bluesbreaker : 10/30/2016 12:30 am : link
Hopefully they beat the boys and get beat up in the process
catch them napping providing our Offense shows up .
O-line better get there act together Philly can get after
it they have 20 sacks this year .
Although Wentz might becoming unhinged a bit . I do think
our defense can com-peat with any team right now .
Back to the Corner