I'm stirring up a bees nest, but...
Coughlin's offense was built around throwing the ball deep, and moving guys around to create mismatches. McAdoo's offense thus far appears to be just lining up in the same formation and throwing short passes under 10 yards. Under Coughlin, for years we led the league in passes and completions over 15-20 yards.
One has to wonder how much of Coughlin's offense last year was responsible for the offensive success? The personnel is actually better this year than last.
How much of Coughlin's offense was still installed last year in addition to McAdoo's, maybe a hybrid of sorts? Coughlin's philosophy was always to take shots downfield, something that has seemingly all but disappeared since his dismissal. Beckham also lined up in the slot a lot more to create mismatches.
Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?
Last year's offense with this year's defense would be playoff bound.
i hate the WCO for the Giants. Always have. It's a fair weather, southern offense that has no place in the cold, windy conditions of the NorthEast. Come December, there is nothing like having a power running game.
And the overall strategy of pounding the rock, forcing a S up and going deep will never get old. I remember in Gilbride's playbook it said down & distance didn't even matter much because all the plays were designed to rip off chunks.
As for Reese, it seems his past couple of drafts have produced talent, but after a full change of the coaching staff, if the team's performance didn't improve, he should have been the next one to go.
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
Another thing I'll point out, is in the Coughlin offense, the slot WR was always open whether it was studs like Steve Smith/Victor Cruz or slobs like Preston Parker (didn't say they always caught the ball)
We have now what should be an absolute stud in the slot with his skillset in Shepard and outside of the first three games, he's been an afterthought.
I actually think the Giants should think of playing Cruz more in the slot and Shepard outside for some snaps opposed to each playing 100% where they currently are. At least switch it up a little and see if it works better.
A work in progress...
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
Eh - it's not even halfway through the year. In general, the team looks very much the same, sloppy, undisciplined football.
I was an advocate for TC's dismissal, and my mind hasn't changed. He needed to go. I'm just not sure they replaced him with the right people.
Of course, for some reason that triggers a 'WHY NOT REESE!' reaction in some people. It's a fair question - but since a GM gets evaluated on a longer timeline, and he is dependent on the coaching staff for personnel input, you have to start with the coaches and then go to the GM. Well, the first draft without Coughlin seems to have been a good one so far (early yet!). Reese has done a good job of acquiring talent, but if the results don't change soon, he's going to be out of work as well.
I'm not referring to just run vs pass. Balance also applies to tendancies, formations, personnel groups, etc.
Looks to me like an offensive minded position coach got the keys to car, and decided he was going to drive it his way (96% 11) and is now seeing it through the old man's lens.
Lastly, don't think for a minute that not having a boss evaluate his performance every Sunday night into early hours of Monday morning isn't a factor here either. First time in Ben's career that's the case. With TC's oversight, there's no way the offense is this singular.
First year growing pains. I think he'll respond. And thank God Spags and the defense have gotten their act together...thanks for the help Jerry...finally.
20
32
24
30
7
27
166 Points for through 7 games.
Ended up the season with 420, good for 6th in the NFL. Defense was the problem last year.
Points for through 7 games this year:
20
16
27
10
16
27
17
133 Point for through 7 games
Good for 25th in the NFL currently.
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
The 2015 team was 4-3 also, at this point last year.
We get it Britt. You love Coughlin. It's too bad he's changing water into wine in the NFL offices.
Can we maybe focus on our current coach and path forward?
Pardon me if it's a little hard to resist saying "be careful what you wish for"...
So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
The team's roster is better than last year. Put this year's defense on last year's team and we're in the playoffs. Add Sterling Sheppard and Victor Cruz to last year's team and they are better.
The coaching, specifically offensive, is glaringly worse.
Right?
Right?
Yes.
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Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.
So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
The team's roster is better than last year. Put this year's defense on last year's team and we're in the playoffs. Add Sterling Sheppard and Victor Cruz to last year's team and they are better.
The coaching, specifically offensive, is glaringly worse.
Last year's defense was holding up at first too, but the offense was letting it down, and in mostly the same way - boneheaded mistakes, bad decisions (time management in particular on offense). The roster is better, but the records of the teams we've played thus far have been much better than last year.
So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
After a 200 million dollar spending spree "no worse off" is not good enough. That being said, the book is still out on Mac and I'm hoping he grows into the job.
He's our coach now and I'll support him until I lose all confidence in him. That point might be approaching but it's not here yet.
But the whole "Tom Coughlin was wronged" garbage is a bit much.
It was time.
But the whole "Tom Coughlin was wronged" garbage is a bit much.
It was time.
Then let's just focus on the Couhlin offense vs. McAdoo offense, then.
The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.
The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.
I personally found the revelation that we're in the same offensive package/formation 96% of the time very alarming. I mean, how can you justify that? Is that the gameplan, or lack thereof?
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.
Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.
We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.
We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.
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Is that minus TC, the team is no worse off.
So, if the argument was that TC was a great coach (and I believe he was for a very long stretch), the results don't prove that to be the case.
After a 200 million dollar spending spree "no worse off" is not good enough. That being said, the book is still out on Mac and I'm hoping he grows into the job.
He's our coach now and I'll support him until I lose all confidence in him. That point might be approaching but it's not here yet.
You're right - and the fact that the offense has taken a step backward with upgrades is definitely a problem.
But thus far, we've faced tougher opposition than we had at this point last year. We got Romo without Bryant for half the game, then a Romo-less and Dez-less Cowboy team. We had the Eagles in Kelly's farewell season, two teams that mustered 8-8 in Buffalo and Atlanta, and the Redskins.
So far, we've played teams with good records and at full strength, and with the exception of the Minnesota game we've been competitive.
Enough of Donnell.
Stretch the field more.
Let's see what happens after the bye.
What's the worst that can happen? We lose to the Eagles, like we always do?
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.
Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.
We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.
We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.
Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?
The reason for the decline is plain as day: they have no rushing attack. They lost their FB and did not replace him. Their lead back has declined with age.
Until defenses have some reason to respect the running game, it's not going to get better.
Look at the numbers:
2015: Eli
168-259 64.8% 1773 yds 6.8 YPA 11-4 TD-INT
2016: Eli
175-270 64.8% 1984 yds 7.3 YPA 8-6 TD-Int
rushing - Taking out kneel downs
2015: 173-636 3.6 YPC 4 TD's
2016: 147-492 3.3 YPC 4 TD's
The only thing I see is when the offense had the lead early/tied they ran better. The last 4 games, they have been behind by 2 scores by mid 2nd qtr.
They have scored 1st qtr TD's in only 1 game, and the 3rd qtr as well
Are the TO's the biggest reason. last year through 7 games they were plus 10, this year they are -7
We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.
We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.
We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.
We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.
We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.
And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.
Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.
Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
You are neglecting the fact that we added quite a bit to the defensive side of the ball this offseason, which, if Coughlin had last year we are not even having this conversation now. We lost 5 games in the 4th quarter last year.
We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.
We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.
We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.
We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.
We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.
And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.
Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.
Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.
We kept the assistants we wanted? Who was that exactly, Mike Sullivan? Was there a fan club I missed? Or Tom Quinn?
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in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.
Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.
We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.
We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.
Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?
Flowers did pretty well at LT for a rookie last year, did he not? But he didn't get along with the offensive line coach so we fired him. Has he improved or regressed last year?
The only one I saw having anything to say publicly about Flaherty was Richburg, who sadly has regressed pretty badly this year under Solari.
The fact remains, we fired a coach and replaced him, and the offensive line has regressed.
Whatever the reason, that's the bottom line.
The reason for the decline is plain as day: they have no rushing attack. They lost their FB and did not replace him. Their lead back has declined with age.
Until defenses have some reason to respect the running game, it's not going to get better.
It was most certainly Coughlin's offensive design/philosophy.
Coughlin/Gilbride had to have adequate protection for those 5 and 7 step drops. Once the offensive line could no longer adequately do that, it was dead in the water.
Where the organization failed, is that they were at a crossroads at 2012-2013. You either build the offensive line and keep on trucking doing the same thing you did to win 2 Superbowls, or you blow the whole thing up and start over with a new philosophy.
Instead, they tried a hodge podge of tinkering and what we got is the mess of a roster we have now.
You'll never convince me otherwise.
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In comment 13194327 area junc said:
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in Coughlin/Gilbride's offense, at RT. Beast.
Same with Shepard in the slot. He'd be open all day. Pugh and Richburg would be good in the Seubert/O'Hara roles.
Beckham at Split End, getting all those isos and working deep off play action would be a thing of beauty.
We got rid of the coaching staff when the players needed to be replaced. The system worked and was perfect for the climate we play in.
We finally reloaded the roster but the old ball coach isn't here anymore.
Who's playing LT in this magical Coughlin/Gilbride offense?
Flowers did pretty well at LT for a rookie last year, did he not? But he didn't get along with the offensive line coach so we fired him. Has he improved or regressed last year?
area junc stated that Flowers at RT under Coughlin would be a beast.
He made no mention of who is playing LT. I am asking who is our LT?
We have the head coach that everyone was dying to get and everyone was afraid to lose because of his vast experience and knowledge of offense.
We got rid of the assistants that everyone blamed and kept the ones everyone wanted.
We spent the $200 million everyone wanted on the free agents everyone wanted and spent the #1 pick on defensive player.
We got Cruz back and added Shepard, who everyone said was the next Jerry Rice.
We got rid of the players everyone wanted to get rid of.
And the results have been the same as last year when the wideouts were Parker and Randle, we started a rookie LT and we were starting a defense half of which is no longer in the League.
Considering drken, Greg and their fellow travelers all insisted this was a playoff team last year ruined by a senile old man, the results so far have been underwhelming.
Playoffs boys, playoffs. Anything else will be a failure after Benny Mac was handed so much.
Speaking of senile old men...
Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.
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With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
Eh - it's not even halfway through the year. In general, the team looks very much the same, sloppy, undisciplined football.
.
The GM doesn't work with the players and yet people seem to be fixated on what the GM does or doesn't do. I'm convinced the talent on the team has nothing to do with how disciplined they play or how well they are coached or if they are put in the right position by the coaches to succeed. Before I would be ready to let go Jerry Reese I would want to see him pick his own Coaching staff. I feel like the Mara's and Tich's of the world have a cap on who the GM can pick and it limits how well he can do as a GM.
This year's MO is that the defense will keep us in it, and we don't know what the offense will do, if anything.
Through seven games last year, the offense broke 20 points 6 times.
Through seven games this year, the offense broke 20 points only 3 times. That's not good enough, or a sustainable model, to win games in today's NFL.
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With the minor exception that we are winning games. (Little tidbit there).
This team is 4-3 correct?
Coughlin is no longer an NFL coach. Get over it.
The 2015 team was 4-3 also, at this point last year.
Facts Britt, you're hitting him with facts...He will be unable to comprehend
Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.
Why is that "more likely"? Because it fits your narrative?
What we do know, is that Reese is the GM, and the GM is in charge of picking the players, and Coughlin was the HC, and in charge of coaching the players he is given.
Now, I know and you know it's not as black and white as that, but to say anything is "more likely" is just speculating to fit your argument, something I've tried to avoid.
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but insisting that somehow Reese left Coughlin out to dry without investing on the OL seems to fly in the face of any kind of logic. It's a lot more likely that Coughlin preferred to stick with the guys he had for too long, and the early deterioration of Snee and Beatty and Baas' injury history blew up on him.
Implying otherwise seems to make it sound like Coughlin had no say in the roster composition, which given how long he lasted and his background just doesn't make any sense.
Why is that "more likely"? Because it fits your narrative?
Because the team that retained that two-time SB winning coach for 12 years was not going to give him zero say in personnel. Shit, the team that just retained a first time HC under 40 said they give him a say, why would we believe that wasn't the case for a guy like Coughlin?
Plus, we saw examples of that behavior, like when Diehl was injured and he was returned to the lineup (only to underperform relative to his replacement) because the coaching staff felt that you don't lose your job to injury.
We don't know for sure either way, but of the two, does it really seem more likely to you that TC was shut out in his concerns that the OL needed to be rebuilt?