I'm stirring up a bees nest, but...
Coughlin's offense was built around throwing the ball deep, and moving guys around to create mismatches. McAdoo's offense thus far appears to be just lining up in the same formation and throwing short passes under 10 yards. Under Coughlin, for years we led the league in passes and completions over 15-20 yards.
One has to wonder how much of Coughlin's offense last year was responsible for the offensive success? The personnel is actually better this year than last.
How much of Coughlin's offense was still installed last year in addition to McAdoo's, maybe a hybrid of sorts? Coughlin's philosophy was always to take shots downfield, something that has seemingly all but disappeared since his dismissal. Beckham also lined up in the slot a lot more to create mismatches.
Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?
Last year's offense with this year's defense would be playoff bound.
The blend that they had last year was pretty good. We took enough shots to keep people from flooding the underneath zones with defenders. We need to address that in some way. I'm not convinced it's as easy as saying "we need a TE". That will help, but unless you start forcing the issue with well timed deeper routes, you're still stymied.
It's like it's a training wheels Offense this year. The only theory that gives hope is that he is planning on surprising everyone for a run. When I got worried was in the Wash game where he got completely out-coached in the 2nd half.
I agree with the idea that it might have been time for TC to move on, and one of the things I was hoping we would get rid off is the sturboness rend TC had to adhering to something that does not work. Yet it's even worse this year with it. We are 4-3, but very easily we could have been 2-5 or even 1-6 if not for some fortunate breaks. I understand you are what your record is, but there are way too many games where luck was the deciding factor.
But he's severely overrated here. His teams were anything but, consistent, smart & tough, despite the fairy tale you've created around him.
Parcells was a better HC.
Nobody hates Coughlin, it's the constant ball licking, and fallacy that Tom was some sort of victim who had zero say in personnel, zero responsibility for all the no-shows, sloppy play, and inconsistency. He couldn't beat the Eagles if his life depended on it.
This idea that Coughlin was somehow handcuffed is fucking ridiculous.
McAdoo has coach for 7 fucking games. Can we give it some more time please before you start calling for St. Coughlin?
I understand TC is a hero of yours, and that's great. But he is no longer a HC in the NFL.
I'm not the one with the bias here. You clearly feel that Coughlin was somehow wronged, and still should be the coach.
Tom Coughlin is no longer a coach in the NFL.
You're the one with "Tom Coughlin is the greatest ever" pom pom.
What happened last year is irrelevant. You know what is? The Eagles next weekend.
Do you want to discuss your 9th grade girlfriend while were at it?
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Are you able to discuss this constructively or not?
I'm not the one with the bias here. You clearly feel that Coughlin was somehow wronged, and still should be the coach.
Tom Coughlin is no longer a coach in the NFL.
You're the one with "Tom Coughlin is the greatest ever" pom pom.
What happened last year is irrelevant. You know what is? The Eagles next weekend.
Do you want to discuss your 9th grade girlfriend while were at it?
Looks like the answer to my previous question is "no".
The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.
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The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.
IF, and it's a big IF, that's what happened... I can't fault the guy for replacing one shit performance with another shit based performance based on liking the smell of one's own shit better than the smell of somebody else's, which is all we've had from our offensive line... shit... since then.
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In comment 13194442 Britt in VA said:
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The same place that Diehl and Snee are - does that matter? At the time, he was playing better, and had been all season.
IF, and it's a big IF, that's what happened... I can't fault the guy for replacing one shit performance with another shit based performance based on liking the smell of one's own shit better than the smell of somebody else's, which is all we've had from our offensive line... shit... since then.
There's no *if* - it went so far as the media asking why Locklear was coming out, and TC said it.
Locklear had been playing well. Diehl had not. Diehl had been injured, and from what it looked like coming back, remained injured.
Tough SOB Diehl, but not what the team needed.
TC wasn't sitting there at the combines with his stopwatch for nothing. He had personnel input - whether it was as much as Reese or not, he was complicit in the whole thing. He deserved blame for the roster, as did Reese. Reese retains more responsibility by virtue of the fact that he's the GM, but he wasn't alone. That much has been said by TC, by Reese, by Mara - but seems to get overlooked when we talk about the team's performance.
2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL
Noticing a trend?
2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.
McAdoo isn't getting fired this year. Coughlin isn't running out of the tunnel any time soon.
Only thing we can do is sit back and see how the next 9 games go.
If they go 4-5, that would be an improvement over 2015.
2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL
Noticing a trend?
2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.
Yup - when McAdoo was named OC, they went from 28th, then 13th, then 6th in points. When he moved to HC, they've dropped considerably.
So now the question becomes - what has changed? How much of it is because TC is gone, and how much of it is because McAdoo is the HC and not just the OC.
It isn't simply TC's removal, because that wasn't the only change. And the fact that they made a marked improvement in points (and other offensive categories) means that McAdoo's introduction was a net positive.
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to the topic....
2013 New York Giants Points For: 28th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 13th in the NFL
2014 New York Giants Points For: 6th in the NFL
Noticing a trend?
2016 New York Giants Points For: 25th in the NFL through 7 games.
Yup - when McAdoo was named OC, they went from 28th, then 13th, then 6th in points. When he moved to HC, they've dropped considerably.
So now the question becomes - what has changed? How much of it is because TC is gone, and how much of it is because McAdoo is the HC and not just the OC.
It isn't simply TC's removal, because that wasn't the only change. And the fact that they made a marked improvement in points (and other offensive categories) means that McAdoo's introduction was a net positive.
And that's exactly what my op was about. So we've come full circle.
What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.
There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.
But he's severely overrated here. His teams were anything but, consistent, smart & tough, despite the fairy tale you've created around him.
Parcells was a better HC.
Nobody hates Coughlin, it's the constant ball licking, and fallacy that Tom was some sort of victim who had zero say in personnel, zero responsibility for all the no-shows, sloppy play, and inconsistency. He couldn't beat the Eagles if his life depended on it.
This idea that Coughlin was somehow handcuffed is fucking ridiculous.
McAdoo has coach for 7 fucking games. Can we give it some more time please before you start calling for St. Coughlin?
I understand TC is a hero of yours, and that's great. But he is no longer a HC in the NFL.
Agree with some of what you said here. But to say Coughlin wasn't handcuffed last year after we fire him and spend 200 Million on the defense... I'll disagree with that. Look, Coughlin had his warts, but last year he had a REALLY shitty team (Personnel wise) in pretty much every game. I feel like they should have given him a chance with this roster.
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Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?
What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.
There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.
That's cherry picking a single line out of my whole op that I was getting out of the way because I knew people would say I was implying it.
I have three questions for you:
Does, or doesn't, the offense look completely unrecognizable to the the previous two years?
Do you feel we have better or worse players on offense this year, over last year?
What is the main change in coaching the offense from this year to last year?
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Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?
What else can you attribute it to? Personnel changes. The fact that McAdoo isn't just the OC but the HC as well. Schedule differences.
There is a chance that Coughlin's oversight made a much better offense than McAdoo alone, but that's just one of many things that might be a factor here.
That's cherry picking a single line out of my whole op that I was getting out of the way because I knew people would say I was implying it.
I have three questions for you:
Does, or doesn't, the offense look completely unrecognizable to the the previous two years?
Do you feel we have better or worse players on offense this year, over last year?
What is the main change in coaching the offense from this year to last year?
In order:
- Unrecognizable? No - definitely simplified. We're running a subset of what we ran last year, for whatever reason.
- Better, but not by a whole lot. We have Cruz back, and while he's not vintage Cruz, he's an improvement over what we had. Shepard will be a big part of this team going forward, but he's a rookie. Traditionally, rookie WRs haven't exactly lit the world on fire (his teammate #13 notwithstanding).
- Main change in offense is McAdoo going from OC to HC/OC. He's taken on more responsibility. Obviously, TC being gone factors here as well - but how much is anyone's guess. McAdoo's O was different from TC's. If anything, if it's TC's departure that's impacting them, it's losing whatever guidance TC was imparting on BM.
To me, this year's offense to last year's is unrecognizable. If last year's offense looked like this year's offense, not a single person on this board would have advocated for McAdoo to be the head coach. No way.
Making him "merge" his offense in any way with a West Coast Offense - the exact opposite scheme he ran his entire coaching life - was stupid and insulting imo.
There is no reason both TC + KG couldn't still be here, they just panicked and didn't rebuild the roster correctly. mgmt mistake, coaches paid for it. KG has said as much post retirement - they gave him nothing despite him warning mgmt of a bad situation
I agree with this part wholeheartedly.
Britt in VA : 12/20/2015 2:20 pm
Beckham drops a TD.
DRC Drops another Pick 6.
Jennings fumbles away a promising drive.
If they fire Coughlin, it's a BIG FUCKING MISTAKE.
Hell, you didn't even think reigning in Beckham was any bit of Coughlin's responsibility.
Britt in VA : 12/20/2015 3:26 pm : link
In comment 12698428 Sean said:
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HA! That's on TC??????
Now, I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's hard to have a legit discussion on anything TC related with you, without it turning into you going out of your way to white knight on his behalf. McAdoo is struggling, and the offense isn't where we want it to be, but this is a 1st year HC. There are going to be ups and downs. This part isn't surprising, we just have to hope he adapts. It was TC's time to go, the real argument is what other candidates we should have interviewed for the job, not comparing a veteran coach past his time to a rookie HC.
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Secondly, I stand by my statement on not reeling in Beckham being on Coughlin. Was it on McAdoo when Beckham was so out of control at the start of this year? No.
Coughlin had Beckham reeled in for nearly two years. One out of control game does not go on Coughlin, no more than this year's Beckham shitshow goes on McAdoo.
And yeah, talent is till a problem.
I didn't articulate my point well as well as I could have in the heat of the moment, but it's still a talent problem.
A lot of people agreed then, and still do.
To answer your question, YES, it is McAdoo's responsibility to reel OBJ in, just like it was Coughlin's to sit OBJ down and let him cool off, rather than let things escalate on the field. My logic on that topic is consistent for both coaches, so this isn't me picking on Coughlin because I decided to be mean.
One thing Coughlin did better was speak to the media about him in a way that he didn't give them a story to run with. McAdoo slipped up and said it was a distraction, and OBJ's antics became a much bigger story than it should have been.
The bottom line is that the offense if infinitely worse, I'd argue unrecognizable, from what we've seen the previous two years.
It's a valid argument to say that Tom Coughlin and his take shots down the filed philosophy is missing from the current incarnation.
If you've got an alternate explanation, let's discuss it.
Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
The bottom line is that the offense if infinitely worse, I'd argue unrecognizable, from what we've seen the previous two years.
It's a valid argument to say that Tom Coughlin and his take shots down the filed philosophy is missing from the current incarnation.
If you've got an alternate explanation, let's discuss it.
YOu talk about deflections, it seems like that's what you do whenever it comes to TC and what he's responsible for.
I disagree that it's the take shots down the field philosophy that's missing. We have been taking shots down field, we've been missing them when opportunities become available, and teams are playing us with 2 safeties deep. Eli has overthrown his WR's deep on a few occasions. This offense could use more diversity in formations, and desperately needs a running game. Some of the issues we have now are the same issues we have had with Coughlin. Again, you seem to brush aside the fact that this is a rookie HC. He might be in over his head. Maybe he's building the offense from ground up, and gradually installing new facets to it. We'll see what happens after the bye. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we see some new wrinkles in the offense.
I've pretty much stuck to the difference in the offense when Coughlin was here, until now. Unless I was responding to another poster's point about one of the above things I mentioned.
So I have not tried to deflect anything on this thread.
Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
OBJ tied for 4th in targets. He's actually averaging more ypc than he ever has. He's on a similar pace to his other two years across the board (with the exception of TD's). Eli has overthrown him, or didn't look his way when he was WIDE open, and that's why his TD's are off pace right now.
Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .
So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.
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had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.
Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .
Was it? That's the question I asked in the OP. And if it was, where is that offense, now?
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In comment 13194642 Britt in VA said:
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had the best rookie career beginning of any wide receiver in history.
Where is the offense that gets that guy involved?
Wasn't that McAdoo's offense basically? Wasn't that before anyone, including TC, knew Beckham was as good as he is? OBJ is still on pace for those same numbers . . .
Was it? That's the question I asked in the OP. And if it was, where is that offense, now?
McAdoo was hired as the new OC and he got a shiny new toy in the first round in Odell. Ask Eli why he isn't throwing the ball down the field, it would be hard for me to believe McAdoo is telling Eli keep it under 15 yards.
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Eli is #11 in passing plays over 20 yards, and #6 in passing plays over 40 yards. I think this is a case of perception not quite meeting reality.
I've watched the video. It's concerning, and I think McAdoo might be doing this to make up for a lack of personnel, and that he's building this offense from the ground up. Again, you seem to be brushing past my points that speaks on the topics, and focus on defending yourself with my returning your deflection accusation.
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We definitely are not taking the same amount of "shots" this year.. whether that is McAdoo's fault, Eli's fault, or the O-line's fault is up for debate. Eli has elevated his teammates play since he stepped in but he hasn't seemed to have that same "magic" this year.
Eli is #11 in passing plays over 20 yards, and #6 in passing plays over 40 yards. I think this is a case of perception not quite meeting reality.
I don't understand those numbers..?
So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.
So this thread devolves if someone disagrees with your opinion? Seems like any point I make to show you a different perspective ends up with you dismissing it completely, and continuing on in your bubble where Coughlin was this perfect coach during his last few seasons here.
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If we continue this is going to devolve like pretty much every other thread that you come on and we get into this, does.
So let's just agree to disagree on this one. This has been a fairly civil discussion up to this point.
So this thread devolves if someone disagrees with your opinion? Seems like any point I make to show you a different perspective ends up with you dismissing it completely, and continuing on in your bubble where Coughlin was this perfect coach during his last few seasons here.
Not not someone, just you. Respectfully, of course. You are a difficult person to converse with on this board.
Coming in, off topic, deflecting, using other people words... All that stuff.
Let's just save ourselves the trouble this time.