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In retrospect...Beckham vs. Martin

Tark10 : 10/31/2016 9:24 am
I'm curious what you all think of the decision to draft Beckham over Zak Martin. The reasoning we were given was that this team needed an impact player. Obviously, we got one. The front office said the problems with this team won't be rectified in one season. Parcells once said, "If you want to build a team, start with the line of scrimmage and work your way back". We have two 1st rounders and one second rounder on the O-line. The right side is a joke. I've hated the Cowboys since 1971. However, they built one of the best O-lines in the league. Perhaps, drafting Martin to play guard or tackle on the right side and continuing to build this line may have been the better path. I'm not faulting the front office for their decision. I'm just curious what many of you loyal fans think at this time. Thoughts?
Martin is great  
Danny Kanell : 10/31/2016 9:25 am : link
But OBJ is the better player.
It's nearly an..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 9:27 am : link
impossible question to answer because without Beckham, our WR's would be horrific and without Martin, our OL is pretty weak.

Also, rating an OL isn't exactly something that pops out at the fan. We see the flashy plays and impact Beckham has had, but we'd probably be best off not even noticing Martin.
you can get buy with a mediocre guard  
Gordo : 10/31/2016 9:27 am : link
OBJ is a generational player, even the Bills who gave up a first rounder to get Watkins wish they had OBJ. Martin is great, and I would of been satisfied if they took him instead of OBJ. But in hindsight I couldn't be happier!
Unfortunately we have no offense  
Simms11 : 10/31/2016 9:28 am : link
without OBJ. He's the only legitimate play-maker on offense and it forces other teams to have to think about how to defend him. One mistake and it could be a different ball game. Martin is a steady rock in their line, but is not solely responsible for their offensive production and so I'd have to go with OBJ. I think the Giants can better find a decent Guard then a playmaker of OBJs caliber.
I'm fine with Beckham but I will say this:  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 9:29 am : link
Eli has made good receivers out of average guys before, and if you give him time, he will always find the open man. Beckham feels like a luxury we couldn't afford.

I think it is valid to think this team would be better off with a better running game and pass pro than having one of the best WR's in the league.
I see it as a wash.  
Brown Recluse : 10/31/2016 9:32 am : link
Either decision would have been a good one.

The problem is whats been done since that decision was made.

The Giants drafted Beckham. Excellent pick. But they've dropped the ball in solidifying the line. The result is that the team still sucks.

If the Giants had drafted Martin instead, would they have gone out and gotten a top tier WR? If not, the team would be in the same position or worse and we don't know the answer.
you cant't go wrong  
chuckydee9 : 10/31/2016 9:35 am : link
with either nor could you have gone wrong with donald.. I would take OBJ over Martin for sure but if we had martin and strong running game, we won't need HoF level wr for the offense to tick.. I think Guards are way too underrated.. If they are so easy to buy, how come we don't have any? Pugh doesn't count he was supposed to be a tackle..
Beckham and Donald were the best players in the draft.  
jogo1 : 10/31/2016 9:36 am : link
So no, I wouldn't trade either one for a guard. What is unacceptable is not taking more OL later in the draft to build up some depth and maybe find a hidden gem.
Hard to say  
Old Dirty Beckham : 10/31/2016 9:37 am : link
if the Giants drafted everything else changes including their own selections the rest of that draft. We never draft Ereck Flowers.

Simply looking at it player for player the Beckham is the better player. Had the Giants drafted Martin they might be a better team today. They also may be way worse.
This isnt remotely a close call  
Deej : 10/31/2016 9:38 am : link
WR is more important that guard. Odell has started his career putting up numbers that suggest he might be the most productive WR of all time.

Drafting Beckham was a fantastic pick. Better question is Beckham v. Donald.
good lord  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 9:41 am : link
since is a Guard, even the best Guard in the league as valuable as a top 2 or 3 WR?

I don't get these threads. Zack Martin isn't the only reason why Dallas' O-Line is good. Meanwhile, Beckham is basically our entire offense. The comparison isn't at all close.
and if we didn't go out and get a top tier  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 9:42 am : link
Guard in FA what makes you guys think we spend double on a WR (if any were available in the first place)?
RE: good lord  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 9:44 am : link
In comment 13197313 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
since is a Guard, even the best Guard in the league as valuable as a top 2 or 3 WR?

I don't get these threads. Zack Martin isn't the only reason why Dallas' O-Line is good. Meanwhile, Beckham is basically our entire offense. The comparison isn't at all close.


Beckham is our entire offense because he has to be, we can't do anything else.

A better offensive line opens up a lot more possibilities.

It's a valid question, albeit and exercise in futility.
RE: RE: good lord  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 9:48 am : link
In comment 13197320 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13197313 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


since is a Guard, even the best Guard in the league as valuable as a top 2 or 3 WR?

I don't get these threads. Zack Martin isn't the only reason why Dallas' O-Line is good. Meanwhile, Beckham is basically our entire offense. The comparison isn't at all close.



Beckham is our entire offense because he has to be, we can't do anything else.

A better offensive line opens up a lot more possibilities.

It's a valid question, albeit and exercise in futility.


The question is about the 2 players though. Considering its easier to find Guard talent than WR talent, that's the starting point for my argument. The other is Martin gets to play on an already great O-Line. Who's to say he doesn't regress in ours?

Beckham is the better player at a more premium position. What if-ing the rest seems pointless since we have no idea how much Martin even helps if he was drafted instead. We might even have Rueben Randle on the team still if we go to what ifs.
We got one of the two best players in a strong first round  
Ira : 10/31/2016 9:49 am : link
with the 12th pick. I'm happy with that result.
The offense needed a go to play maker in 2014  
adamg : 10/31/2016 9:49 am : link
That draft year came immediately after David Wilson's career ended prematurely. Imagine a bell cow back in this offense. It'd be a totally different team.

So we lost a huge investment at running back including older vets like Jacobs. We ended up drafting Andre Williams in the fourth as well as signing Jennings. Obviously, Williams didn't pan out, but he led the team in carries and yard. Jennings turned out to be serviceable as a starter. It's impossible to make up for losing on a huge talent like Wilson would have been.

Our offense was also depleted both up front - despite drafting Pugh - and in the WR corps. Nicks was done. Cruz was declining. Randle was decent but not a no. 1.

And it's not like we ignored the line either, getting Richburg in the second. We just lost a lot of guys at the same time. And it's hard to blame anyone for that. Wilson was an injury fluke. Nicks was lost rapidly to injury as well.

So, it's not even close that Beckham not only turns out to be the best talent available. It was a position of need, and the type of player the offense needed to get a boost. I don't think any player would have been a better pick for the Giants in that spot.
and another poster mentioned it  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 9:51 am : link
but I'm taking Donald over Martin as well. Another one that is pretty close to a no brainer for me.
I think the mistake regarding not drafting an oline player was made  
Ira : 10/31/2016 9:53 am : link
in 2015 in not taking La'el Collins in the third round.
I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 9:55 am : link
Put both of those guys on the block right now, and which one do you think commands a greater haul?

Better yet -come FA, which one do you think is going to get paid a lot more money?

In terms of immediate impact to the team, there's no question. And yet somehow, here we are.

Yes, he's been immature. He's also been explosive, and when it's all said and done will almost certainly (barring something unfortunate, knock wood) be the best WR we've ever had.

But he, we could have had a really good guard instead. Good grief.
RE: I think the mistake regarding not drafting an oline player was made  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 9:55 am : link
In comment 13197340 Ira said:
Quote:
in 2015 in not taking La'el Collins in the third round.


Please stop. No one drafted Collins, and there was a reason for that. The mistake is repeating this over and over.
RE: The offense needed a go to play maker in 2014  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13197329 adamg said:
Quote:
That draft year came immediately after David Wilson's career ended prematurely. Imagine a bell cow back in this offense. It'd be a totally different team.
.


The needed OL in 2012 rather than David Wilson and Ruben Randle back to back.
RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:00 am : link
In comment 13197344 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Put both of those guys on the block right now, and which one do you think commands a greater haul?

Better yet -come FA, which one do you think is going to get paid a lot more money?

In terms of immediate impact to the team, there's no question. And yet somehow, here we are.

Yes, he's been immature. He's also been explosive, and when it's all said and done will almost certainly (barring something unfortunate, knock wood) be the best WR we've ever had.

But he, we could have had a really good guard instead. Good grief.


It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.
Imagine Beckham on the Eagles  
Steve in South Jersey : 10/31/2016 10:04 am : link
I remember reading after the draft that the Eagles had him targeted to pick.
RE: Imagine Beckham on the Eagles  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:05 am : link
In comment 13197362 Steve in South Jersey said:
Quote:
I remember reading after the draft that the Eagles had him targeted to pick.


We'd certainly hate his guts and talk about what a scum bag he is, for sure.
RE: RE: The offense needed a go to play maker in 2014  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:05 am : link
In comment 13197352 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197329 adamg said:


Quote:


That draft year came immediately after David Wilson's career ended prematurely. Imagine a bell cow back in this offense. It'd be a totally different team.
.



The needed OL in 2012 rather than David Wilson and Ruben Randle back to back.


Easy to say now. Wilson looked like a dynamite type of back we hadn't had since Tiki. And Randle scored TDs. If he was third to Nicks and Cruz, we'd have a core of weapons and then the money to go after FA OL. As it turned out, we needed to spend some $ on Jennings. And come Sunday we still have 4 draft picks on the O line.

Not to mention we also did draft two OL later on in that draft. One of whom is still in the league.
I always believed what Parcells did  
micky : 10/31/2016 10:06 am : link
"Build lines and then out" like said, good qbs with protection can make good with avg wrs etc..we saw that with giants years ago
i think everyone on BBI  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 10:07 am : link
supports the team building, getting stronger in the trenches mentality. But we can't ignore a potentially dominant WR of which has had one of the best starts in the history of the NFL.

I'm all for getting back to pounding the rock and grinding games out, but we've missed a lot in trying to do this (several high picks, and 2 FA busts), so its been a longer than expected work in progress fixing the OLine.

I'm also a pretty reasonable fan and realized this wasn't a 1 offseason turn around. We will be in play for 1 if not 2 lineman and FA + atleast another high pick. If that doesn't work either than you really have to question the coaches and the players themselves.
But everyone forgets that after we drafted Beckhan our OL  
BillT : 10/31/2016 10:08 am : link
Consisted of 2 #1 picks, 2 #2 picks and a FA starter with Jerry and Newhouse as backups. It wasn't an either/or proposition. We had both.
RE: I always believed what Parcells did  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:08 am : link
In comment 13197369 micky said:
Quote:
"Build lines and then out" like said, good qbs with protection can make good with avg wrs etc..we saw that with giants years ago


Coughlin did this when he got here, as well.
I think you can make an argument either way  
pjcas18 : 10/31/2016 10:09 am : link
for Beckham or Martin and not be wrong.

because what comes after that is indeterminable.

Maybe in 2014 if the Giants drafted Martin instead then in the 2nd round the Giants draft Timmy Jernigan or Davante Adams or Allen Robinson or someone else impactful instead of Richburg since they went OL in one.

Maybe the butterfly effect happens because of that one move and in 2015 the Giants draft Vic Beasley instead of Ereck Flowers.....

I like Beckham, I'm glad the Giants drafted him, but i think Martin could have worked out too.
RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:09 am : link
In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13197344 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Put both of those guys on the block right now, and which one do you think commands a greater haul?

Better yet -come FA, which one do you think is going to get paid a lot more money?

In terms of immediate impact to the team, there's no question. And yet somehow, here we are.

Yes, he's been immature. He's also been explosive, and when it's all said and done will almost certainly (barring something unfortunate, knock wood) be the best WR we've ever had.

But he, we could have had a really good guard instead. Good grief.



It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.


No, it's just a subtle shot at OBJ from a guy who has mentioned he roots for more than one NFC team.

There's nothing philosophical about this. You have two choices - a better player at a position that's harder to fill, versus a very good player at a position that's not considered premium.

You think Parcells would pick Martin? What about his team building philosophy after he left here would make you think that would be his choice? Have a look at some of his drafts, and let me know how many guards he selected high.
RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:09 am : link
In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:
Quote:



It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.


But it's not a question of simply "is OL more important the WR". It depends on the state of our offense in the 2013 postseason. We lost a lot of talent in the play making positions that year.
RE: RE: RE: The offense needed a go to play maker in 2014  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:10 am : link
In comment 13197365 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13197352 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13197329 adamg said:


Quote:


That draft year came immediately after David Wilson's career ended prematurely. Imagine a bell cow back in this offense. It'd be a totally different team.
.



The needed OL in 2012 rather than David Wilson and Ruben Randle back to back.



Easy to say now. Wilson looked like a dynamite type of back we hadn't had since Tiki. And Randle scored TDs. If he was third to Nicks and Cruz, we'd have a core of weapons and then the money to go after FA OL. As it turned out, we needed to spend some $ on Jennings. And come Sunday we still have 4 draft picks on the O line.

Not to mention we also did draft two OL later on in that draft. One of whom is still in the league.


No, no, no. This isn't some hindsight theory. That OL was on their last legs. Quite a few mentioned it.

The game is won and lost on the line of scrimmage and have a QB which doesn't make mistakes.

As far as this Sunday. A very suspect right side with two backups which should likely be retired and a CFL player. That's pathetic.
The reality is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 10:12 am : link
that teams rarely can pound the rock and close out games anymore.

Maybe the Seahawks could with Lynch, but it isn't close to being the norm. You saw last night the Eagles were unable to sustain drives late which allowed the tying score to happen. The Broncos last year couldn't close out games running the ball.

The recent recipe for winning has been to build a great D that can neutralize the high-powered offenses and the rules that overly favor them. Or be the Patriots....

Teams are even winning the SB with average OL play.
Imo Beckham was the right choice.  
yatqb : 10/31/2016 10:12 am : link
The one thing that had me ambivalent about his selection at the time, though, was the tremendous WR talent in that draft, with guys available into the 3rd-4th round who are impact players.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I always believed what Parcells did  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:13 am : link
In comment 13197369 micky said:
Quote:
"Build lines and then out" like said, good qbs with protection can make good with avg wrs etc..we saw that with giants years ago


Please include some factual data to back up your assertion. Start with the Patriots, have a look at the Cowboys. Tell me what you think Parcells would do after looking at his history.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The offense needed a go to play maker in 2014  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:13 am : link
In comment 13197380 Giants2012 said:
Quote:


No, no, no. This isn't some hindsight theory. That OL was on their last legs. Quite a few mentioned it.

The game is won and lost on the line of scrimmage and have a QB which doesn't make mistakes.

As far as this Sunday. A very suspect right side with two backups which should likely be retired and a CFL player. That's pathetic.


So you think we'd be better off with Cruz and Randle going 1 and 2 at WR? Preston Parker was the other receiver on that team. Martin could pave the way for the bell cow Andre Williams?

You act like Pugh and Richburg didn't happen.
I definitely think Martin  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 10:13 am : link
COULD have worked. It would be a start in a much needed rebuild, but again, the question of value + the better player immediately comes into question.

Aaron Donald could have worked too and maybe we don't spend on Snacks and instead become the highest bidder for Osemele. Who knows.
I guess we should have drafted Martin, Richburg, and then 5 other OL  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:14 am : link
to win the LOS despite having no talent to get the ball to.
RE: RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:15 am : link
In comment 13197377 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:


Quote:





It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.



But it's not a question of simply "is OL more important the WR". It depends on the state of our offense in the 2013 postseason. We lost a lot of talent in the play making positions that year.


Actually, it is that simple.

We went from being 9-7 into 2012 to starting 0-6 in 2013 mainly because of the offensive line.

We had a 1000 yard rusher in 2012, and didn't have a player break 500 rushing yards in 2013.

Eli went from being sacked 19 times in 2012 to 40 (!) in 2013.

Beckham was taken in the draft immediately following the 2013 season.

Looking at those numbers, what was the bigger need? Yeah, talent vs. need and all that, but our line was completely shot and Gilbride got fired because of it.
Martin  
stretch234 : 10/31/2016 10:16 am : link
J Bitonio was drafted in the second round and if he was on Dal and Martin was on Cle you can bet everything that he would get the accolades over Martin.

You can find interior OL all over the draft and as UDFA. With handful of exceptions, you can't find top level WR talent throughout the draft.

Dallas ran the ball before Martin got there
And none of this is in any way intended to cover up the fact  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:16 am : link
that our OL is underperforming. That's a problem - and not a small one.

But OL play around the league isn't that great. And when guys get paid, they get paid for tackle (Osemele being the exception here).

Our problem isn't even that we haven't been spending resources - we have two first rounders and a second rounder on the line. It's that guys haven't been living up to expectations (Flowers has been inconsistent and Richburg has taken a serious step back this year), and we've been unable to upgrade RT.

And while I believe Eli can take a good WR and make him better, he's not an alchemist (nor should he be). He can't turn Preston Parker into Marvin Harrison. The belief or expectation that he can is both unfair and unrealistic. Without Beckham, Eli's up to his neck in shit with this offense, whether Martin is plugged in for Jerry or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13197394 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13197377 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:


Quote:





It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.



But it's not a question of simply "is OL more important the WR". It depends on the state of our offense in the 2013 postseason. We lost a lot of talent in the play making positions that year.



Actually, it is that simple.

We went from being 9-7 into 2012 to starting 0-6 in 2013 mainly because of the offensive line.

We had a 1000 yard rusher in 2012, and didn't have a player break 500 rushing yards in 2013.

Eli went from being sacked 19 times in 2012 to 40 (!) in 2013.

Beckham was taken in the draft immediately following the 2013 season.

Looking at those numbers, what was the bigger need? Yeah, talent vs. need and all that, but our line was completely shot and Gilbride got fired because of it.


Are you capable of posting anything that doesn't reek of "TOM COUGHLIN WAS WRONGED"?

Jesus Christ man.
Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:18 am : link
read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?

RE: And none of this is in any way intended to cover up the fact  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13197398 jcn56 said:
Quote:
that our OL is underperforming. That's a problem - and not a small one.

But OL play around the league isn't that great. And when guys get paid, they get paid for tackle (Osemele being the exception here).

Our problem isn't even that we haven't been spending resources - we have two first rounders and a second rounder on the line. It's that guys haven't been living up to expectations (Flowers has been inconsistent and Richburg has taken a serious step back this year), and we've been unable to upgrade RT.

And while I believe Eli can take a good WR and make him better, he's not an alchemist (nor should he be). He can't turn Preston Parker into Marvin Harrison. The belief or expectation that he can is both unfair and unrealistic. Without Beckham, Eli's up to his neck in shit with this offense, whether Martin is plugged in for Jerry or not.


Exactly.
RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?


Lol - nope
Thought not.  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:23 am : link
.
I just wonder what it would have been like  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:25 am : link
if Phil Simms had been granted a halfway decent WR before the end of his career. Look at what he did with Mike Sherrard when both were nearing the end, and for the brief period of time before Sherrard injured himself.

We talk about what Parcells would have done, but Parcells didn't build that Giants team. And when he did build teams, he often took defense or offensive skill positions high.

You guys are thinking about Young, who built teams for an entirely different form of NFL.

As for the several years of high performing OL that Dallas has had, along with a franchise QB and #1 WR, not a lot of playoff games to go with it (albeit Romo's fragility is not helping them there).
RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:25 am : link
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?


I just read that you're obstinate about this. And that somehow Zack Martin would have led Andre Brown to a 1000 yard season in 2013.
RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:25 am : link
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?


Really man? Just stop. You have 2 posts here talking about your Messiah.

So you didn't make a reference to Gilbride losing his job, and Coughlin building an OL?
And I was/am a big Zack Martin fan.  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:26 am : link
.
FWIW  
giants#1 : 10/31/2016 10:26 am : link
this 2014 'redraft', still doesn't have Martin going until pick 11:

1. Mack
2. Beckham
3. Donald
4. Allen Robinson
5. Barr
6. Bucannon
7. Bortles
8. Bridgewater
9. Verrett
10. Mosley
11. Martin
12. Watkins
13. Lewan
14. Carr
...

Granted, I think Carr is likely #1, followed by Mack, Beckham, Donald. After that, I could see Martin anywhere from 5-10. (Mike Evans should be in the top 10 too.
RE: RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13197420 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?




I just read that you're obstinate about this. And that somehow Zack Martin would have led Andre Brown to a 1000 yard season in 2013.


Wow, anybody else care to chime in on this one.

I don't think I've:

a) defended Tom Coughlin in any way on this thread
b) been stubborn in any way about what I've posted on this thread
c) claimed that anybody would have rushed for 1000, especially Andre Brown.

Is it me?
In retrospect . . .  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:27 am : link
they should have taken Osmele rather than David Wilson in 2012

Regardless, La'ell Collins was on the board. The Holyiee than now and hypocritical NFL had something to do with that kid not getting drafted. He was on the table

I like Apple but Tunsil was there too.

There have been plenty of opportunities to solidify this OL.
RE: I always believed what Parcells did  
BigBlueinChicago : 10/31/2016 10:28 am : link
In comment 13197369 micky said:
Quote:
"Build lines and then out" like said, good qbs with protection can make good with avg wrs etc..we saw that with giants years ago



Having the good line has the following effect on the whole team

1. Improved running game
2. Pass protection
3. Ability to keep you own defense off the field

Right now, the Giants offensive line play has had an effect on the entire team.

Because they can't run the ball, they are having shorter drives.

Having the shorter drives is putting the defense on the field more.

Having the defense on the field more is giving the opposing team more chances to score and eventually, with all of the added plays, will simply tire them out and make them less effective.

So far the opponents have run 72 more plays and have possessed the ball for 56 more minutes than the Giants have this season. This is insane. Basically a full games worth of difference in terms of time of possession.

You can win without "generational wide receivers." They just can't be awful. The last 20 years of Super Bowl champions will tell anyone that.
RE: In retrospect . . .  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:29 am : link
In comment 13197429 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
they should have taken Osmele rather than David Wilson in 2012

Regardless, La'ell Collins was on the board. The Holyiee than now and hypocritical NFL had something to do with that kid not getting drafted. He was on the table

I like Apple but Tunsil was there too.

There have been plenty of opportunities to solidify this OL.


They should have taken Cordy Glenn instead of Wilson. Agreed.
Beyond the fact that Lael Collins has played like dogshit  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:30 am : link
Did anyone else notice the fact that *nobody* selected him, and then when it came down to FA, the Giants were one of three teams in play?

It's not coincidence that nobody picked the guy. Special circumstances, and obviously some sort of collusion behind the scenes that the Giants (and everyone else, including the Cowboys) were reluctant or unable to go against.
RE: RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:31 am : link
In comment 13197421 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?




Really man? Just stop. You have 2 posts here talking about your Messiah.

So you didn't make a reference to Gilbride losing his job, and Coughlin building an OL?


You are trying to create an argument on this thread that doesn't exist.
Collins threatened..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 10:33 am : link
to sit out if he wasn't selected early.

I have a feeling, his situation was a combination of teams not wanting the threat of him sitting out and the NFL telling teams to not draft him and let them duke it out in UDFA.

And up til now, Collins has not been anything special, so it still confuses me when not drafting him is referenced as a critical error.
RE: Beyond the fact that Lael Collins has played like dogshit  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:34 am : link
In comment 13197436 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Did anyone else notice the fact that *nobody* selected him, and then when it came down to FA, the Giants were one of three teams in play?
.


Do you really think the NFL hierarchy didn't have something to do with that? Com'on, nobody took him in any round and it turns out he wasn't even guilty.

He's a very solid prospect.
RE: RE: RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:35 am : link
In comment 13197439 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13197421 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?




Really man? Just stop. You have 2 posts here talking about your Messiah.

So you didn't make a reference to Gilbride losing his job, and Coughlin building an OL?



You are trying to create an argument on this thread that doesn't exist.


My fault. Apologies.
RE: RE: Beyond the fact that Lael Collins has played like dogshit  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:35 am : link
In comment 13197445 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197436 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Did anyone else notice the fact that *nobody* selected him, and then when it came down to FA, the Giants were one of three teams in play?
.



Do you really think the NFL hierarchy didn't have something to do with that? Com'on, nobody took him in any round and it turns out he wasn't even guilty.

He's a very solid prospect.


Do you know what collusion means?
RE: RE: In retrospect . . .  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:35 am : link
In comment 13197432 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13197429 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


they should have taken Osmele rather than David Wilson in 2012

Regardless, La'ell Collins was on the board. The Holyiee than now and hypocritical NFL had something to do with that kid not getting drafted. He was on the table

I like Apple but Tunsil was there too.

There have been plenty of opportunities to solidify this OL.



They should have taken Cordy Glenn instead of Wilson. Agreed.


Ah, him too. It's just amazing. I harp on Osemele b/c i was calling for him in Round 1 but yeah , Glenn was there too.
RE: RE: RE: Beyond the fact that Lael Collins has played like dogshit  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:36 am : link
In comment 13197448 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197445 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13197436 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Did anyone else notice the fact that *nobody* selected him, and then when it came down to FA, the Giants were one of three teams in play?
.



Do you really think the NFL hierarchy didn't have something to do with that? Com'on, nobody took him in any round and it turns out he wasn't even guilty.

He's a very solid prospect.



Do you know what collusion means?


Yup, and it was clearly demonstrated. Doesn't mean the kid isn't a good prospect and didn't deserve to even be drafted. My gosh, he wasn't even guilty.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
dorgan : 10/31/2016 10:37 am : link
In comment 13197403 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13197394 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13197377 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:


Quote:





It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.



But it's not a question of simply "is OL more important the WR". It depends on the state of our offense in the 2013 postseason. We lost a lot of talent in the play making positions that year.



Actually, it is that simple.

We went from being 9-7 into 2012 to starting 0-6 in 2013 mainly because of the offensive line.

We had a 1000 yard rusher in 2012, and didn't have a player break 500 rushing yards in 2013.

Eli went from being sacked 19 times in 2012 to 40 (!) in 2013.

Beckham was taken in the draft immediately following the 2013 season.

Looking at those numbers, what was the bigger need? Yeah, talent vs. need and all that, but our line was completely shot and Gilbride got fired because of it.



Are you capable of posting anything that doesn't reek of "TOM COUGHLIN WAS WRONGED"?

Jesus Christ man.


Where did he mention Tom Coughlin?
I'll wait for answer while you pore over the thread.
You got one thing right.
Something does indeed reek here.
RE: RE: RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:37 am : link
In comment 13197426 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

Wow, anybody else care to chime in on this one.

I don't think I've:

a) defended Tom Coughlin in any way on this thread
b) been stubborn in any way about what I've posted on this thread
c) claimed that anybody would have rushed for 1000, especially Andre Brown.

Is it me?


My point was that we had no RB after Wilson went down. Brown started 8 games in 2013. Saying no one rushed for 1000 yards is self-aggrandizing nonsense. Yes, we didn't rush the ball as well that year, but saying that particular number as a watermark is nonsense when we had no consistent starting back.

My other point is that you're just being pigheaded. So, that may explain your confusion with anyone ever disagreeing with you about why we shouldn't only draft OL.
Martin is a hell  
dorgan : 10/31/2016 10:39 am : link
of a player. He would have made an impact, but I don't think it would have been equal to the impact that OBJ has made.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 10:46 am : link
In comment 13197454 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13197426 Britt in VA said:


Quote:



Wow, anybody else care to chime in on this one.

I don't think I've:

a) defended Tom Coughlin in any way on this thread
b) been stubborn in any way about what I've posted on this thread
c) claimed that anybody would have rushed for 1000, especially Andre Brown.

Is it me?



My point was that we had no RB after Wilson went down. Brown started 8 games in 2013. Saying no one rushed for 1000 yards is self-aggrandizing nonsense. Yes, we didn't rush the ball as well that year, but saying that particular number as a watermark is nonsense when we had no consistent starting back.

My other point is that you're just being pigheaded. So, that may explain your confusion with anyone ever disagreeing with you about why we shouldn't only draft OL.


I think it's you that are confused. I don't think I've said anything as a matter of fact.

I've stressed that O-line vs. WR is a valid question in regarding to team building philosophy at the time that it happened, but that we should all be happy with Beckham.

Look bigger picture than 2013. We haven't had a 1000 yard rusher since 2012. It's a lot more of a product of a poor offensive line than whomever is running the ball.

Finally, I don't feel like I've said even remotely aggressive or standoffish on this thread, yet have been told I'm shilling for Coughlin, and being pigheaded on the subject.

I think if you read my posts, then yours, one of us is being pigheaded, but it ain't me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Beyond the fact that Lael Collins has played like dogshit  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 10:55 am : link
In comment 13197451 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197448 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13197445 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13197436 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Did anyone else notice the fact that *nobody* selected him, and then when it came down to FA, the Giants were one of three teams in play?
.



Do you really think the NFL hierarchy didn't have something to do with that? Com'on, nobody took him in any round and it turns out he wasn't even guilty.

He's a very solid prospect.



Do you know what collusion means?



Yup, and it was clearly demonstrated. Doesn't mean the kid isn't a good prospect and didn't deserve to even be drafted. My gosh, he wasn't even guilty.


I never said he didn't - but obviously, the NFL circled the wagons and decided that it wasn't going to happen for Collins. Was it because he threatened to hold out? Was it them in damage control because they weren't sure he was innocent yet?

The whole situation boils down to - he wasn't going to be drafted, he wasn't drafted, and the Giants only shot at him was in FA - where they put forward a good shot to get him but fell short because Collins was a Cowboy fan growing up.

As for him being a prospect - he *was* a good prospect. He's been underwhelming as a pro. So has Flowers, although at a much more difficult position and starting from day 1.
Woah  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 10:58 am : link
Stop with he "was" a good prospect. The kid played one year and got injured. Do you write off every NFL prospect within one year? Few prospects across the league make any impact so soon.
Saying we should have gone OL  
adamg : 10/31/2016 10:59 am : link
rather than OBJ when we spent a round 1-2 pick on the OL in that that year and each the preceding year and following year seems crazy to me. Pigheaded was too strong a word and sorry for that. It just seems like you're saying the sole cause of our offensive struggles was OL, when much more was going on in addition to that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm embarrassed by Giants fans sometimes.  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 10:59 am : link
In comment 13197453 dorgan said:
Quote:
In comment 13197403 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13197394 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13197377 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13197353 Britt in VA said:


Quote:





It's a nuanced question. Obviously it's hard to complain about drafting a Top 3 WR where we picked in the first round, but it's really more of a team building philosophy question.



But it's not a question of simply "is OL more important the WR". It depends on the state of our offense in the 2013 postseason. We lost a lot of talent in the play making positions that year.



Actually, it is that simple.

We went from being 9-7 into 2012 to starting 0-6 in 2013 mainly because of the offensive line.

We had a 1000 yard rusher in 2012, and didn't have a player break 500 rushing yards in 2013.

Eli went from being sacked 19 times in 2012 to 40 (!) in 2013.

Beckham was taken in the draft immediately following the 2013 season.

Looking at those numbers, what was the bigger need? Yeah, talent vs. need and all that, but our line was completely shot and Gilbride got fired because of it.



Are you capable of posting anything that doesn't reek of "TOM COUGHLIN WAS WRONGED"?

Jesus Christ man.



Where did he mention Tom Coughlin?
I'll wait for answer while you pore over the thread.
You got one thing right.
Something does indeed reek here.


10:08- He made a reference to Coughlin building up the OL when he got here. Did he not?

He then made a comment about Gilbride getting fired.

I'm probably reading too much into it..Let's move on.
RE: Woah  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 11:00 am : link
In comment 13197511 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
Stop with he "was" a good prospect. The kid played one year and got injured. Do you write off every NFL prospect within one year? Few prospects across the league make any impact so soon.


Prospects are people who haven't played the pro game. He has, and he's not a prospect anymore.

Can he improve? Sure, I didn't say he's destined to be garbage, but it is what it is - thus far, it doesn't look like he's ever going to be anything but mediocre.
RE: RE: Woah  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 11:04 am : link
In comment 13197519 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197511 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


Stop with he "was" a good prospect. The kid played one year and got injured. Do you write off every NFL prospect within one year? Few prospects across the league make any impact so soon.



Prospects are people who haven't played the pro game. He has, and he's not a prospect anymore.

Can he improve? Sure, I didn't say he's destined to be garbage, but it is what it is - thus far, it doesn't look like he's ever going to be anything but mediocre.


Well, it appears you expect a prospect to make an immediate impact. Why even bother with a draft if 95% of the players do little their rookie yearand get labeled mediocre or below?

IMO, he has a higher ceiling than anybody on the Giants right side and would replace any backup on this roster. Which isn't saying much about the backups with two who should be retired and other should be playing in the CFL.
Let's say it this way  
Stan in LA : 10/31/2016 11:11 am : link
Today, knowing what you know, would you trade OBJ for either Martin or Donald straight up?

Neither would any of the 32 NFL GM's...
Can anyone imagine if Odell was a Cowboy  
est1986 : 10/31/2016 11:16 am : link
No, you don't even want to do that. Not even close.
RE: Can anyone imagine if Odell was a Cowboy  
UConn4523 : 10/31/2016 11:24 am : link
In comment 13197571 est1986 said:
Quote:
No, you don't even want to do that. Not even close.


It would be awful, haha.
no contest  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 10/31/2016 11:31 am : link
Martin is a very very good player. But Offensive Lines are carried by one player, they work together as a group.

Martin is arguably the 3rd best OLineman on his own team.
Beckham is the 3rd best WR in the league

Martin is tremendous and I wish we had a guy like him, but this isn't close.

aren't carried  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 10/31/2016 11:31 am : link
I should say
The choice is obvious  
Overseer : 10/31/2016 11:47 am : link
but that doesn't mean it isn't painful to watch the Giants' Oline. The Pass pro has been serviceable but this run game has been horrific, and it ain't all on the RBs. I really hope Richberg is banged up bc his regression glaring. The Giants really need him & Flowers to work out as they, in addition, seek to bolster the right side.

Watching Conklin in Tenn have a near Pro Bowl year adds insult to injury.
I can't believe we're having this discussion.  
Mike from SI : 10/31/2016 11:53 am : link
Beckham's the most talented guy at an impact position we've had since Strahan or possibly LT.
I don't think it's as much saying that people...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 11:55 am : link
actually want Martin over Beckham, I think it's more of a what if type question, as in... What would the team look like had that happened? Might things have gone differently from 2013 on... Impossible to answer, but hypothetical.

Again, it's a team building philosophy question.
For instance....  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 12:02 pm : link
Let's look at some former "Best WR's in the League"...

Calvin Johnson, retired with nothing to show for it.

Quote:
His 11,619 yards and 83 touchdowns are the most in NFL history for a player with no playoff wins. Yes, it's true. Calvin Johnson never won a playoff game. He only made the postseason twice. But the team's failures weren't his fault: Johnson consistently put up eye-popping numbers despite not having a dynamic No. 2 receiver to take away coverage until Golden Tate came to town.


FoxSports: 10 Crazy Calvin Johnson Stats

Andre Johnson played from 2003 until 2011 with 3 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros before finally getting to the playoffs.

It's sweet to have the best player at a position, but unfortunately, having the best WR doesn't always equal wins, and we've seen that with Beckham as well, over the past two years.

So it's not out of the question to have this discussion, as futile as it is.

It just depends on how you think a team should be built.
RE: I can't believe we're having this discussion.  
NYG07 : 10/31/2016 12:04 pm : link
In comment 13197666 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
Beckham's the most talented guy at an impact position we've had since Strahan or possibly LT.


Agreed. Why are we still debating this? Beckham, Martin and Donald are all great players. OBJ is the best player of the three and the best player in that draft to this point. In fact, Beckham is the reason Jerry Reese still has his job today.
Britt  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 10/31/2016 12:06 pm : link
what about Joe Thomas?

Non-QBs simply have a ceiling in their ability to carry a team. That goes for WRs, OL, Pass Rushers, and everyone else.
That is a good point as well.  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 12:09 pm : link
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just differences of opinion.

For all I know, Zack Martin could be performing as badly for us as all of our other premium pick O-linemen, so who knows.

Like I said, it's not as much about the name as it is the philosophy of building.
RE: For instance....  
giants#1 : 10/31/2016 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13197686 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Let's look at some former "Best WR's in the League"...

Calvin Johnson, retired with nothing to show for it.



Quote:


His 11,619 yards and 83 touchdowns are the most in NFL history for a player with no playoff wins. Yes, it's true. Calvin Johnson never won a playoff game. He only made the postseason twice. But the team's failures weren't his fault: Johnson consistently put up eye-popping numbers despite not having a dynamic No. 2 receiver to take away coverage until Golden Tate came to town.



FoxSports: 10 Crazy Calvin Johnson Stats

Andre Johnson played from 2003 until 2011 with 3 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros before finally getting to the playoffs.

It's sweet to have the best player at a position, but unfortunately, having the best WR doesn't always equal wins, and we've seen that with Beckham as well, over the past two years.

So it's not out of the question to have this discussion, as futile as it is.

It just depends on how you think a team should be built.


Flip that around. Joe Thomas is arguably the best OL in the NFL and what has he won? And he plays the far more critical LT compared to RG.

What about All Pro Trent Williams? Or Jason Peters?

Orlando Pace won nothing until they became the greatest show on earth with Warner/Faulk/Bruce/Holt.

Ogden has just 1 SB and that's with arguably the best defense in the last 2-3 decades.

Bruce Matthews? nothing

Being a pro-bowler doesn't guarantee you any team accomplishments. But there's a reason team's pay a premium for certain positions (QB by far, then WR/CB/pass rusher/LT).
My post right above yours applies to your post as well.  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 12:12 pm : link
.
IMO  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 10/31/2016 12:13 pm : link
it seems like the discussion isn't Martin vs. Beckham but the Dallas OL as a unit vs. Beckham.

I'd take the Dallas OL as a whole over Odell to build a team as well. Martin on the Giants doesn't make us instantly the best OL in football.

BTW, let's not forget that in 2011 we won a Super Bowl with a bottom 5 OL and a top 3 WR unit.
RE: IMO  
Giants2012 : 10/31/2016 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13197705 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:

BTW, let's not forget that in 2011 we won a Super Bowl with a bottom 5 OL and a top 3 WR unit.


The DL got healthy, they had two HB's who could block and several TE's who could too.
RE: IMO  
giants#1 : 10/31/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13197705 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
it seems like the discussion isn't Martin vs. Beckham but the Dallas OL as a unit vs. Beckham.

I'd take the Dallas OL as a whole over Odell to build a team as well. Martin on the Giants doesn't make us instantly the best OL in football.

BTW, let's not forget that in 2011 we won a Super Bowl with a bottom 5 OL and a top 3 WR unit.


You can probably simplify it. Smith + Martin vs Beckham. Add those 2 to the Giants OL and you'd have a top 3 unit. Pugh pulling behind Martin would be devastating!

Though if you start doing comparison's like this, you also have to look at the cap situation. Smith is already one of the paid OL in football. Beckham is one of the biggest bargains in football.
Aside from QB, sometimes  
Overseer : 10/31/2016 12:48 pm : link
what 1 player can have an over-arching & fundamental change effect on his team? Maybe for individual weeks (James Harrison used to do it), but over the course of 16 games, it's the overall makeup of the team that matters. This isn't the NBA.

Week 4 vs Minnesota a microcosm. The Vikings did a great job neutralizing Beckham. Rhodes good with excellent assists from H Smith. The safety being occupied means the Giants should have been able to exploit the seam or have better success running the ball. But since they suck in those two phases, game over.

That said, a good Oline can paper over so many weaknesses in a way that other positions cannot. But we're talking 5 positions, not 1, so it's a much larger undertaking to build one, which is why what Dallas as done is frankly rather impressive and unfortunately not easily imitated.
Thats a Tough argument ...  
Bluesbreaker : 10/31/2016 1:15 pm : link
OBJ is just a special kind of Talent .
When he is not in the game we are pretty much a big fat
zero on offense .
Martin is a hell of a player but OBJ brings more to the
offense that anyone drafted in the past few years except
a guy like Julio Jones .
The problem is the Giants needed to address the offensive
line and failed they brought in Nobody not even a late
round pick .
Schwartz Osemele <sp> . Were expensive but they would
have kept the offense in at least the top 10 in points
and yards . Most Likely Wins as well ..
We have yet to be blown out of any game but at this
rate the amount of snaps the Defense is playing injuries
are inevitable ...
Were gonna face a team that has had our number and is coming here pissed off and there Defense can really
make a QB look bad .
WR > RG  
JonC : 10/31/2016 1:19 pm : link
There are some here who want OL as a priority, no matter what. They pay little attention to the actual inherent value of the player relative to his draft peers, they simply want to plug a hole.

It simply isn't feasible to suggest a RG, even a potential All-Pro, is more valuable than an All-Pro WR.

Even the DT isn't as valuable as the WR.



I look at it like this,  
RollBlue : 10/31/2016 1:22 pm : link
with Martin and a healthy OL last year, Dallas went 4-12. The Giants went 6-10 - main reason was historic bad defense - blew 5 leads in the last two minutes. OBJ is more impactful than a dominant RG - period!
This isn't close  
Go Terps : 10/31/2016 1:26 pm : link
You draft Beckham ten times out of ten.

Drafting isn't about an individual pick though so much as it is a general philosophy. Martin looks in part like a great pick because Dallas has invested other resources to build that great line.
[b]Can anyone imagine if Odell was a Cowboy[/b]  
Bubba : 10/31/2016 1:38 pm : link
BBI would say he was self centered wise ass....
RE: This isn't close  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13197908 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You draft Beckham ten times out of ten.

Drafting isn't about an individual pick though so much as it is a general philosophy. Martin looks in part like a great pick because Dallas has invested other resources to build that great line.


That's what I've been saying, as well.
good god  
chris r : 10/31/2016 1:40 pm : link
game breaking WR vs game breaking... guard? Is this really a thread topic?
If you'd rather..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 1:42 pm : link
we can debate something else:

Quote:
good god
chris r : 1:40 pm : link : reply
game breaking WR vs game breaking... guard? Is this really a thread topic?


Maybe Josh Norman being considered an asshole system player in April vs. a great teammate and a guy you'd sign up for your team in October?
Again...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 1:43 pm : link
it's not Martin vs. Beckham straight up. It's more nuanced than that.

The question is essentially was Beckham a luxury that the Giants could afford at a time when their offensive line was in shambles and they were essentially rebuilding.

Nobody is unhappy we have Beckham, but it's interesting to look back and wonder what might have been different had we focused earlier on the offensive line.
RE: If you'd rather..  
chris r : 10/31/2016 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13197961 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
we can debate something else:



Quote:


good god
chris r : 1:40 pm : link : reply
game breaking WR vs game breaking... guard? Is this really a thread topic?



Maybe Josh Norman being considered an asshole system player in April vs. a great teammate and a guy you'd sign up for your team in October?


Wow imagine someone using new information to change their opinion about something? Unthinkable!

Don't you have some posters you've never met to wish death to?
Produce..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 1:49 pm : link
the evidence that I've ever wished death on anyone.

I know this is your latest attempt to try and make a dig, but it is even suckier than usual.

But, back to your point - there has actually been new information since April that would make Norman go from a system player and an asshole to being a good teammate?

I'd imagine the evidence for that resides in the same place where I've wished death on somebody.
RE: Does anybody on this thread besides the good doctor here...  
ColHowPepper : 10/31/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13197406 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
read anything in any of my posts on this thread about Tom Coughlin being wronged?
No, I read that reply to your post as a mis-guided, mis-reading from a knee-jerk JR defender whose warning radar beeps on anything that could broadly be (mis-)construed as a criticism of JR, hence TC as the subject matter.

More substantively, the draft picks and FAs spent supposedly to reverse years of neglect of the OL during Eli's late prime have panned out in mediocre results at best: this may well underpin the premise of the OP, because if we had an effective OL that facilitated a facsimile of a rushing game and could reliably protect a "skittish" Eli in the pocket, the question would never have been raised.
what a lot of people above  
area junc : 10/31/2016 3:07 pm : link
don't seem to understand is the bush league running scheme. We run the same play over and over again. Under those conditions Zack Martin at RG instead of Jerry would accomplish very little.

We are already getting decent G play albeit not at Martin's level. The problem is we're a 1-trick pony, the opponent knows what's coming and spent 3 days preparing for it. And our top 2 TEs routinely fail to execute their assignment. And we don't carry a FB.

You put Zack Martin in this clusterf#ck and you're looking at the same BS run game you see now

LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/31/2016 3:12 pm : link
Quote:
We run the same play over and over again.


We actually don't run the same play or even the same blocking scheme over and over again, but it would probably take looking deeper than just parroting the latest complaints to understand that point.
RE: Again...  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13197969 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
it's not Martin vs. Beckham straight up. It's more nuanced than that.

The question is essentially was Beckham a luxury that the Giants could afford at a time when their offensive line was in shambles and they were essentially rebuilding.

Nobody is unhappy we have Beckham, but it's interesting to look back and wonder what might have been different had we focused earlier on the offensive line.


What's nuanced about it? If it's not player for player, is the implication we should have focused that pick on the OL and not WR? Are we picking players now irrelevant of the production associated with them, and just focusing on positions?

Either way, you're getting one player. So in hindsight, in retrospect, with nuance and whatever other qualifier you want to apply, is there ever a reason why one might feel we'd have been better off with Zack Martin instead of Odell Beckham Jr.?
RE: RE: Again...  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13198137 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197969 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


it's not Martin vs. Beckham straight up. It's more nuanced than that.

The question is essentially was Beckham a luxury that the Giants could afford at a time when their offensive line was in shambles and they were essentially rebuilding.

Nobody is unhappy we have Beckham, but it's interesting to look back and wonder what might have been different had we focused earlier on the offensive line.



What's nuanced about it? If it's not player for player, is the implication we should have focused that pick on the OL and not WR? Are we picking players now irrelevant of the production associated with them, and just focusing on positions?

Either way, you're getting one player. So in hindsight, in retrospect, with nuance and whatever other qualifier you want to apply, is there ever a reason why one might feel we'd have been better off with Zack Martin instead of Odell Beckham Jr.?


Because it's a philosophical question based on your beliefs of how a team should be built.

The roster of the 2013 team was in shambles with holes everywhere. It was clear that it needed to be blown up and rebuilt.

The question is do you think the long term picture fares better being built around O-line or Skill positions.

That's all I'm saying.

Would anybody trade Beckham for Martin straight up? No. But in hindsight, if you could, would you go back and build the team differently? Perhaps.
I suppose it's also the philosophical BPA vs. Need, as well....  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 3:50 pm : link
in conjunction with what I posted above.
We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 4:03 pm : link
We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)
RE: We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
Britt in VA : 10/31/2016 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13198253 drkenneth said:
Quote:
We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)


Right, we did...

I wonder what our unit would look like had we taken Martin then Richburg, then Pugh and Flowers....

Impossible to say, but each guy is only as good as the guy next to him.

As you said, can't complain about Beckham, though.
beckham jr.  
Les in TO : 10/31/2016 4:09 pm : link
was the right pick in 2014.

before the draft, the Giants spent a big sum in free agency signing Geoff Schwartz expecting that he would be the left guard of the future. he was young and was a solid performer with the chiefs. they already had a first round pick in pugh at right tackle, a proven second round pick in beatty at left tackle and then they drafted their center of the future in richburg in the second round after beckham. they plugged the right guard with jerry, a veteran free agent.

meanwhile, at receiver, the giants had cruz an underachieving randle and not much else. not to mention with Wilson's neck injury and no threat at tight end, they were in desperate need of offensive playmakers.

the strategy was right, but the execution and luck turned out poorly. Schwartz was a walking medic, beatty has the injury with his bicep, and jerry was inconsistent at best.

in the meantime, even though he missed his first few games as a rookie, beckham shattered almost every record imaginable. with cruz going down to injury in 14-15, Wilson retiring and randle never meeting his potential and nothing else going on with the tight ends/running backs, he is the only viable threat eli can consistently turn to that defensive coordinators need to worry about.
Drafting either guy would have been fine but I would  
Jimmy Googs : 10/31/2016 5:20 pm : link
never give up OBJ now.

Way too much of a game changer...
RE: beckham jr.  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 5:37 pm : link
In comment 13198267 Les in TO said:
Quote:
was the right pick in 2014.

before the draft, the Giants spent a big sum in free agency signing Geoff Schwartz expecting that he would be the left guard of the future. he was young and was a solid performer with the chiefs. they already had a first round pick in pugh at right tackle, a proven second round pick in beatty at left tackle and then they drafted their center of the future in richburg in the second round after beckham. they plugged the right guard with jerry, a veteran free agent.

meanwhile, at receiver, the giants had cruz an underachieving randle and not much else. not to mention with Wilson's neck injury and no threat at tight end, they were in desperate need of offensive playmakers.

the strategy was right, but the execution and luck turned out poorly. Schwartz was a walking medic, beatty has the injury with his bicep, and jerry was inconsistent at best.

in the meantime, even though he missed his first few games as a rookie, beckham shattered almost every record imaginable. with cruz going down to injury in 14-15, Wilson retiring and randle never meeting his potential and nothing else going on with the tight ends/running backs, he is the only viable threat eli can consistently turn to that defensive coordinators need to worry about.


Nice post.
RE: We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
Go Terps : 10/31/2016 5:39 pm : link
In comment 13198253 drkenneth said:
Quote:
We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)


If we're removing Beckham, I think the approach to take that year is to draft both Martin and Richburg.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 10/31/2016 5:45 pm : link
Odell has the potential to be an all-time great. WR is a greater impact position, and Odell is better at his position - the choice is a no-brainer.

I think the team would be worse off with Martin. I don't think his addition to the OL would be enough to propel this unit to a top five one - and I'm not sure a top five OL minus Beckham is as good as what we have now.
RE: RE: We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
drkenneth : 10/31/2016 6:03 pm : link
In comment 13198423 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13198253 drkenneth said:


Quote:


We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)



If we're removing Beckham, I think the approach to take that year is to draft both Martin and Richburg.


Yup. But then you have no weapons on offense.
RE: RE: We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 6:16 pm : link
In comment 13198423 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13198253 drkenneth said:


Quote:


We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)



If we're removing Beckham, I think the approach to take that year is to draft both Martin and Richburg.


Right - but that's still trading Beckham for Martin.

I can understand questioning the team building approach, and the priority when it comes to composition. But it doesn't pop up in a debate related to Beckham and Martin, that's something that has to do with resource allocation in general.

And as Les pointed out, and has been mentioned elsewhere - it's not a matter of the Giants not dedicating resources to the OL. It's a matter of waiting too long, and not being successful when spending it. Baas who had been healthy up until we signed him ended up oft injured and a disappointment. We spent money on Geoff Schwartz who ended up in the same category (but there were more warning signs with him). We spent a very high pick on Erek Flowers and he's still a question mark. We gave Will Beatty a big contract and ended up regretting the latter parts of it.

This isn't as simple as 'the Giants philosophically don't value the OL'. It is more a combination of bad luck and bad moves that have resulted in an underperforming offensive line.
Giants OL issues are also due to a failure to develop talent  
giants#1 : 10/31/2016 6:19 pm : link
pre-Snee/Diehl drop-offs, how many mid/late round picks did we draft? How many of those turned into even quality backups, let alone Jerry-level starters?
RE: RE: RE: We also drafted RIchburg in the 2nd...So  
Go Terps : 10/31/2016 6:39 pm : link
In comment 13198444 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13198423 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 13198253 drkenneth said:


Quote:


We really can't complain. Rather have that than Martin and one of the 2nd round receivers that year.

Beckham is just too good. (And this is coming from someone who wanted Martin)



If we're removing Beckham, I think the approach to take that year is to draft both Martin and Richburg.



Yup. But then you have no weapons on offense.


With an offensive line like the Cowboys' pedestrian players can be good (see Beasley as an example). Again, I think you can't pass up a generational talent like Beckham.

But as a philosophy I think clustering prime resources into a specific area to carry the team is sound. I think spreading things evenly results in mediocrity.
Think about the resource allocation though  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 6:56 pm : link
Dallas has three 1st rounders on that OL. We have two, and a 2nd rounder.

Doug Free was a 4th round selection. Lael Collins was an undrafted FA.

Have the Cowboys really allocated that much more in terms of resources? Or did they just do a better job of selecting players?

People keep repeating that Parcells and TC both believed in building the lines first, but take a look at their draft histories and see how many first round picks they spent on the OL. Somehow, some myth about the Giants not spending resources, be it money or picks, has become pervasive here and that's simply not the case. We've spent plenty on the OL - the problem is we don't have the performance to show for it, and that's more about selecting the wrong talent or not developing it (or a combination of both) than it is about team philosophy.
RE: Think about the resource allocation though  
Go Terps : 10/31/2016 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13198479 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Dallas has three 1st rounders on that OL. We have two, and a 2nd rounder.

Doug Free was a 4th round selection. Lael Collins was an undrafted FA.

Have the Cowboys really allocated that much more in terms of resources? Or did they just do a better job of selecting players?

People keep repeating that Parcells and TC both believed in building the lines first, but take a look at their draft histories and see how many first round picks they spent on the OL. Somehow, some myth about the Giants not spending resources, be it money or picks, has become pervasive here and that's simply not the case. We've spent plenty on the OL - the problem is we don't have the performance to show for it, and that's more about selecting the wrong talent or not developing it (or a combination of both) than it is about team philosophy.


Lael Collins is a unique case in that he was a top talent with red flags. Dallas easily could have said "we're already good on the line, we don't need this guy". But they went after him anyway.

But it's a fair point that their evaluation has done them a service.
RE: RE: Think about the resource allocation though  
jcn56 : 10/31/2016 7:17 pm : link
In comment 13198490 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13198479 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Dallas has three 1st rounders on that OL. We have two, and a 2nd rounder.

Doug Free was a 4th round selection. Lael Collins was an undrafted FA.

Have the Cowboys really allocated that much more in terms of resources? Or did they just do a better job of selecting players?

People keep repeating that Parcells and TC both believed in building the lines first, but take a look at their draft histories and see how many first round picks they spent on the OL. Somehow, some myth about the Giants not spending resources, be it money or picks, has become pervasive here and that's simply not the case. We've spent plenty on the OL - the problem is we don't have the performance to show for it, and that's more about selecting the wrong talent or not developing it (or a combination of both) than it is about team philosophy.



Lael Collins is a unique case in that he was a top talent with red flags. Dallas easily could have said "we're already good on the line, we don't need this guy". But they went after him anyway.

But it's a fair point that their evaluation has done them a service.


They went after him because it was a good risk/reward for the price. Same reason the Giants did.
RE: RE: IMO  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/1/2016 2:40 am : link
In comment 13197721 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13197705 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:



BTW, let's not forget that in 2011 we won a Super Bowl with a bottom 5 OL and a top 3 WR unit.



The DL got healthy, they had two HB's who could block and several TE's who could too.


I totally agree. OL isn't everything. We won one with a shit OL, the rest of the team needs to step up.
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