Pierre-Paul and Vernon lead all NFL edge defenders this season in snaps played. They are the only two players to have broken 600 defensive snaps (634 and 605, respectively), while only 15 other players have even topped 500 snaps.
Wonder how this will affect this effectiveness later in the season as well as later in their careers. PFF - ( New Window )
too much goes into pitch counts, total plays, etc across all of sports. Guys like JPP get better as the game goes on and they feed off of always being in the mix. I don't see how resting a player for 4 or 5 more plays will magically lengthen their careers.
Is that they are getting zero production from the backups:
Quote:
In 94 pass-rushing snaps this season, Odighizuwa has only recorded four total QB pressures, or pressure once every 23.5 attempts. JPP has generated pressure once every 9.6 rushes, and Vernon once every 9.2, so to take either off the field and replace him represents a major downturn in production that is unlikely to be offset by any potential boost in their yield over the smaller number of snaps they are playing.
Romeo Okwara and Kerry Wynn are the only other defensive ends to get snaps for the Giants so far this season, and in 133 combined pass-rushes, they have done only marginally better than Odighizuwa, with eight total pressures between them (one in every 16.6 attempts).
I don't remember Carson, Taylor, or Banks coming off the field.
Did Bruce Smith or Reggie White work in a platoon system?
LB's are different. They aren't banging with OL every play.
Don't know about Smith/White, but the top DL the past few seasons (Suh, Watt, JPP, Mack, Vernon etc) typically play around 90% (+/- 1-2%) of the D snaps. Vernon's in that range, but JPP is playing almost 96% of the snaps (only sat 1 play against the Bengals).
The biggest reason their snap totals are so high is because the D in general has seen a ton of plays. Part of that is on the offense for not sustaining enough drives. Hopefully this past Monday becomes a trend as the Giants O ran ~75 plays and the D was only out there for 58 (IIRC).
I don't remember Carson, Taylor, or Banks coming off the field.
Did Bruce Smith or Reggie White work in a platoon system?
the first 3 you named are Line Backers.. The positions are different.. Just like no one is worried about snaps that Collins plays.. with DE's you start getting diminishing returns because they have to hit 330 LB tackles on every play.. Both our SB winning DL had a really good rotation.. what these guys are doing is insane and bound to get them hurt or fatigued as the season goes on..
the numbers also show that they should be given more like 10 -15 plays off more than what we are currently doing rather than just 4 more plays off..
They both absolutely need to have their snaps reduced
That is not a statistic we want to be leading the league in, and not because of the "lengthen career" argument. Imo, the effectiveness of both would improve with a more frequent rotation.
I don't buy the argument they need to be in the mix the whole game to ultimately be productive.
Need those other DEs to get their asses moving...
RE: The main issue for the coaches if you read the article
Is that they are getting zero production from the backups:
Quote:
In 94 pass-rushing snaps this season, Odighizuwa has only recorded four total QB pressures, or pressure once every 23.5 attempts. JPP has generated pressure once every 9.6 rushes, and Vernon once every 9.2, so to take either off the field and replace him represents a major downturn in production that is unlikely to be offset by any potential boost in their yield over the smaller number of snaps they are playing.
Romeo Okwara and Kerry Wynn are the only other defensive ends to get snaps for the Giants so far this season, and in 133 combined pass-rushes, they have done only marginally better than Odighizuwa, with eight total pressures between them (one in every 16.6 attempts).
I don't think its the coaches fault.. but there has to be some changes otherwise our Stud DL may not be effective in the late season games or playoffs, which are the most important games..
Guys, I get they're LB's thanks for the lesson in positions...
It was merely an example. I was just showing that until recently most starters played the majority of snaps. Knowing this is BBI I should've been more specific and just listed Dlineman.
with more play stoppages in NFL, they do get a bit more rest. I agree, it could hurt down the stretch, but the drop off to OO, Wynn and Okwara is huge. OO has shown nothing, Wynn has no pass rush ability, and Okwara is very raw
Only goes back to 2012, but the percentage of snaps JPP is playing isn't unprecedented. Watt played 96% of D snaps last year. Chandler Jones played almost 98% in 2013 for NE. A few others have been close to the 95% mark over the last 5 years too. Link - ( New Window )
from the archives where we discussed how JPP and OV don't like coming off the field. of course i was insulted for daring to suggest this exact scenario we're seeing now
Spags put the backup d-line on the field to start the Eagles' 4th drive and on the very first play, the Eagles ran for 19 yards (their longest run of the day). On the very next play, the Eagles completed a 30 yard pass. Spags put the starters right back in.
The snaps need to be staggered in a way so that one player gets a rest during a particular drive or maybe the starting DTs play with the backup DEs and vice-versa. Hopefully, they can get a blowout or 2 the next few weeks.
They will be fine as long as they stay relatively healthy
He lived through 2008, with the same defensive coordinator. That was the year Strahan retired and Osi was on IR with a torn meniscus. The line was great... until about Week 14. Then it wasn't.
from the archives where we discussed how JPP and OV don't like coming off the field. of course i was insulted for daring to suggest this exact scenario we're seeing now
You were insulted for suggesting that Odighizuwa would see limited action primarily because Vernon and Pierre-Paul don't like to come out, not for expressing concern about them taking too many snaps.
from the archives where we discussed how JPP and OV don't like coming off the field. of course i was insulted for daring to suggest this exact scenario we're seeing now
You were insulted for suggesting that Odighizuwa would see limited action primarily because Vernon and Pierre-Paul don't like to come out, not for expressing concern about them taking too many snaps.
Well he was spot on, and the circle jerk crew did what they always do.
He lived through 2008, with the same defensive coordinator. That was the year Strahan retired and Osi was on IR with a torn meniscus. The line was great... until about Week 14. Then it wasn't.
Rushing the passer is widely considered one of the most difficult and physically taxing actions in football. It's why DE's are such a commodity and get paid the way they do.
2008 is a prime example of a DL running out of gas.
58 really needs to step up. A lot of eggs are currently in his basket.
He lived through 2008, with the same defensive coordinator. That was the year Strahan retired and Osi was on IR with a torn meniscus. The line was great... until about Week 14. Then it wasn't.
That was my point yesterday when I started the thread.
Things are good right now with the results. But think of all these snaps they are taking like body blows in a boxing matches. At some point, they will take their toll.
Does it go against conventional thinking to say that a player should get less snaps? Yes. However, the thinking is that by playing less, that defensive end can be more forceful and go 100% rather than thinking he has to conserve energy, pace himself and pick their spots.
A guy like Robert Ayers we saw for two seasons was very good at getting to the quarterback in him initial limited snaps. One would say "play him more!"
But what began to happen is when he played more, he was not the same guy. 65+ snaps brought less overall production than when he played 45.
This is why these next two weeks provide the perfect chance to reduce their workload.
If the Giants can win these games handily to where in the 4th quarter, the game isn't in doubt, rest can be given to both of them.
The O-line doesn't have as much to worry about with
leg injuries and the wear and tear on there knees .
They also don't have to chase QB's and RB's all over the field
The fact that our backups have done very little as pass rushers
we are always playing in tight games and finishing them
most of the time with the defense on the field trying
to win the game .
Wynn has been hurt Owa has shown very little Okwara is green
but showing potential . It may have been wise to have added
a guy like Harrison or Freeny as pass rush specialist .
You have to be somewhat concerned about the wear and tear
on both JPP and OV .. Bromley is another guy who doesn't
make too many plays either . I get Owa was hurt but it's
football at some point in time they need to start making
plays ...
Is that our Offense (except for last week) hasn't been keeping our defense off of the field. Hopefully the Cincy game is showing a trend upward in T.O.P.
getting more snaps would both work to reduce the total number of snaps, regardless of the percentage.
Agree. Nothing worse than quick stop and then a 3 and out to give it right back. We did that a few times in that 2 quarter stretch on Monday and it is so frustrating when that happens.
getting more snaps would both work to reduce the total number of snaps, regardless of the percentage.
Also, they need to stop bailing people out on third and longs...As good a year as Jenkins is having, he gave up
a penalty on a 3rd and 25 against Cincy.
It's not a knock folks, don't go there,
just giving you an example.
They have done that quite a few times this year with penalties on 3rd down.
The red zone defense has saved them this year, so far.
Did Bruce Smith or Reggie White work in a platoon system?
Not a perfect comparison but offensive linemen don't leave the field unless they're injured. why can they do it, but DE's can't?
If it were too much for them I suspect Spags or McAdoo would know before PFF.
Romeo Okwara and Kerry Wynn are the only other defensive ends to get snaps for the Giants so far this season, and in 133 combined pass-rushes, they have done only marginally better than Odighizuwa, with eight total pressures between them (one in every 16.6 attempts).
Did Bruce Smith or Reggie White work in a platoon system?
LB's are different. They aren't banging with OL every play.
Don't know about Smith/White, but the top DL the past few seasons (Suh, Watt, JPP, Mack, Vernon etc) typically play around 90% (+/- 1-2%) of the D snaps. Vernon's in that range, but JPP is playing almost 96% of the snaps (only sat 1 play against the Bengals).
The biggest reason their snap totals are so high is because the D in general has seen a ton of plays. Part of that is on the offense for not sustaining enough drives. Hopefully this past Monday becomes a trend as the Giants O ran ~75 plays and the D was only out there for 58 (IIRC).
Did Bruce Smith or Reggie White work in a platoon system?
the first 3 you named are Line Backers.. The positions are different.. Just like no one is worried about snaps that Collins plays.. with DE's you start getting diminishing returns because they have to hit 330 LB tackles on every play.. Both our SB winning DL had a really good rotation.. what these guys are doing is insane and bound to get them hurt or fatigued as the season goes on..
the numbers also show that they should be given more like 10 -15 plays off more than what we are currently doing rather than just 4 more plays off..
I don't buy the argument they need to be in the mix the whole game to ultimately be productive.
Need those other DEs to get their asses moving...
Quote:
In 94 pass-rushing snaps this season, Odighizuwa has only recorded four total QB pressures, or pressure once every 23.5 attempts. JPP has generated pressure once every 9.6 rushes, and Vernon once every 9.2, so to take either off the field and replace him represents a major downturn in production that is unlikely to be offset by any potential boost in their yield over the smaller number of snaps they are playing.
Romeo Okwara and Kerry Wynn are the only other defensive ends to get snaps for the Giants so far this season, and in 133 combined pass-rushes, they have done only marginally better than Odighizuwa, with eight total pressures between them (one in every 16.6 attempts).
I don't think its the coaches fault.. but there has to be some changes otherwise our Stud DL may not be effective in the late season games or playoffs, which are the most important games..
Jeez...
The Giants are on a winning streak as soon as they lose a game the Reese bashing trolls will be out in full force.
Link - ( New Window )
Carl Banks Tweets about Odi August 2, 2016 - ( New Window )
The snaps need to be staggered in a way so that one player gets a rest during a particular drive or maybe the starting DTs play with the backup DEs and vice-versa. Hopefully, they can get a blowout or 2 the next few weeks.
You were insulted for suggesting that Odighizuwa would see limited action primarily because Vernon and Pierre-Paul don't like to come out, not for expressing concern about them taking too many snaps.
Quote:
from the archives where we discussed how JPP and OV don't like coming off the field. of course i was insulted for daring to suggest this exact scenario we're seeing now
You were insulted for suggesting that Odighizuwa would see limited action primarily because Vernon and Pierre-Paul don't like to come out, not for expressing concern about them taking too many snaps.
Well he was spot on, and the circle jerk crew did what they always do.
Rushing the passer is widely considered one of the most difficult and physically taxing actions in football. It's why DE's are such a commodity and get paid the way they do.
2008 is a prime example of a DL running out of gas.
58 really needs to step up. A lot of eggs are currently in his basket.
That was my point yesterday when I started the thread.
Things are good right now with the results. But think of all these snaps they are taking like body blows in a boxing matches. At some point, they will take their toll.
Does it go against conventional thinking to say that a player should get less snaps? Yes. However, the thinking is that by playing less, that defensive end can be more forceful and go 100% rather than thinking he has to conserve energy, pace himself and pick their spots.
A guy like Robert Ayers we saw for two seasons was very good at getting to the quarterback in him initial limited snaps. One would say "play him more!"
But what began to happen is when he played more, he was not the same guy. 65+ snaps brought less overall production than when he played 45.
This is why these next two weeks provide the perfect chance to reduce their workload.
If the Giants can win these games handily to where in the 4th quarter, the game isn't in doubt, rest can be given to both of them.
leg injuries and the wear and tear on there knees .
They also don't have to chase QB's and RB's all over the field
The fact that our backups have done very little as pass rushers
we are always playing in tight games and finishing them
most of the time with the defense on the field trying
to win the game .
Wynn has been hurt Owa has shown very little Okwara is green
but showing potential . It may have been wise to have added
a guy like Harrison or Freeny as pass rush specialist .
You have to be somewhat concerned about the wear and tear
on both JPP and OV .. Bromley is another guy who doesn't
make too many plays either . I get Owa was hurt but it's
football at some point in time they need to start making
plays ...
Agree. Nothing worse than quick stop and then a 3 and out to give it right back. We did that a few times in that 2 quarter stretch on Monday and it is so frustrating when that happens.
so of course our defensive players are going to have big snap counts
Also, they need to stop bailing people out on third and longs...As good a year as Jenkins is having, he gave up
a penalty on a 3rd and 25 against Cincy.
It's not a knock folks, don't go there,
just giving you an example.
They have done that quite a few times this year with penalties on 3rd down.
The red zone defense has saved them this year, so far.