JPP At this point in the season

Sometimes going to offer him a lot.

.

he doesn't have the sack numbers, but he's a valuable piece to the defense. I'm all for shopping around, but since his accident i think he's more focused and determined than before.

i'm not sure what FA is out there that will be able to replace him, honestly i can't see how we let him go, he has played almost all of the defensive snaps this year. How do you replace that? We need a 3rd pass rusher ala Osi or Kiwi

don't think we'll be able to afford him. Next year, he'll be two years removed from his injury, and even if he's never the player he was because of it, he's already shown he's still a very effective DE.

the pricetag is another story.

I think that it's a huge risk and in the NFL, you've gotta ask, "What would BB do?" We know that the Pats would wave goodbye to him lickety split.

I think we're seeing the absolute career ceiling for JPP physically right now. Someone will pay him alot of money, likely much more than what he'll be worth in the years to come. I love him for what he's doing right now but I hope it isn't us.

on a show-me contract. He will be offered more than that per year to play somewhere.

I'm guessing they won't/can't pay both JPP and Hankins.
They will definitely keep at least one of them.

and then sign a penetrating DT. Two run-stuffing DT's is great, but we need that gap shooter up the middle.

is 27, will be 28 by the end of the season.

He has probably one or two solid years left at this level, physically, but I don't see him being a guy that plays well into his 30s. The back issues combined with the hand, production has been down... I really like the guy, and if he leaves DE becomes priority #1 this offseason (again...), but I think we spend the money on Hankins instead.

I'm not sure he'll get a big offer from anyone though... If he came back on a 2 year deal, modest price, sign me up.

In comment 13221048 AcidTest said:

Quote:

don't think we'll be able to afford him. Next year, he'll be two years removed from his injury, and even if he's never the player he was because of it, he's already shown he's still a very effective DE.

JPP is playing as good as he ever has with the possible exception of 2011 (although that year gets over inflated because he had a ton of coverage sacks)

could have been, but he's been effective. Seems like he's matured since the accident, become a leader.

In comment 13221060 jlukes said:

Quote:

and then sign a penetrating DT. Two run-stuffing DT's is great, but we need that gap shooter up the middle.

maybe the Vikes will trade Linval Joseph back here :-)

To spend again this offseason to sign jpp and Hankins both without any issue if they choose to

In comment 13221070 bigbb said:

Quote:

To spend again this offseason to sign jpp and Hankins both without any issue if they choose to

The Giants have the loot...It simple..open the check book and pay!!

JPP just as valuable then OV if not more...why is OV getting 6 years 85 million and the Giants can't find $$ for JPP??

Given on or the other...personally I would rather have JPP...can't believe the level of disrespect JPP gets on this board

would be dumb to not want him back. Obviously what he's looking for needs to factor in, but you certainly have to try. Considering what he's been through, I think he'd really like to be back too.

If there is one thing Giants fans should have learned by now is you can NEVER have enough pass rushers. The titles in 07 and 12 would not have happened without a pass rush.

He is damaged goods to some extent, but will get a good offer from someone who needs a DE. If you let him go...have a plan to replace him.

In comment 13221079 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

If there is one thing Giants fans should have learned by now is you can NEVER have enough pass rushers. The titles in 07 and 12 would not have happened without a pass rush. He is damaged goods to some extent, but will get a good offer from someone who needs a DE. If you let him go...have a plan to replace him.

he doesn't look damaged to me.
The hand has not been an issue

the beginning of the season. However, 10 million bucks is a lot of money for somebody that doesn't get sacks.

Right now, he's far and away the best option at LDE, but that's only because the other guys are JAGs or worse.

Has a great motor and doesn't take off on any plays. I am a big fan of JPP.

He's playing better than Vernon. Are we willing to pay him Vernon money if he asks for it?

Do you think it might be a good idea if the Giants instead of signing JPP and Hankins sign instead Mohammed Wilkinson of the Jets and other young, affordable and decent DE. With Wilkinson, Snacks, Vernon Oliver and another decent DE I think that DE would be better that this current one we have now.

If can't sign both, then rather sign Hankins..

Defensive Line....

kicks. yea you wish the sack #'s were better, but exactly who are you going to sign that's going to beat that package? Sure if his contract demands are totally ridiculous you can't just give him the moon. However I get the feeling that he showed this past off season that this is were he wanted to be and that the team wants him. Hopefully they can work something out long term.

which is exactly what you want in the postseason.

In comment 13221112 Blue Angel said:

Quote:

Do you think it might be a good idea if the Giants instead of signing JPP and Hankins sign instead Mohammed Wilkinson of the Jets and other young, affordable and decent DE. With Wilkinson, Snacks, Vernon Oliver and another decent DE I think that DE would be better that this current one we have now.

Ummm....Wilkinson signed an extension with the Jets in Training Camp

My bad....

Quite a few people have mentioned "reasonable" contract then fine, if not let him go. The reality is the market rate for a man of his age, production, and premium position will command far more than what people think is reasonable. I look at Ayers and what he got on the open market. He's making 7.5 mil this year. He's 31 with 2.5 sacks and 13 total tackles. So let's assume that 8 mil is the very bottom of the salary floor that a DE is worth. And the current market was set with Vernon, 13 mil and 16 mil next year. The franchise tag for a DE is $15 mil. He's playing on a $10 mil contract and is performing at the same level as Vernon. If you were him, the negotiations start at that market rate.

I have yet to understand why they could not afford him and Hankins

They are going to be 30M under the cap and can easily sign both

Cruz is not going to get 6.4 in salary next year, JT thomas can be cut and save 3M, They re-sign Pugh to an extension and get his 8.4M number reduced and still have room to play with DRC

They will have money

In comment 13221085 Gman11 said:

Quote:

the beginning of the season. However, 10 million bucks is a lot of money for somebody that doesn't get sacks. Right now, he's far and away the best option at LDE, but that's only because the other guys are JAGs or worse.

You must hate the Vernon deal

JPP and Hankins, I'm not sure what numbers you guys are looking at, but they can certainly keep them both if they want to.

Given Dallas's running attack I'd like to keep both around as both are excellent against the run. Then I'd draft an edge rusher early to fill that 3rd DE spot.

That said, I'm not sure they will want to pay through the nose for JPP at this point. My gut says only one stays and the other is replaced in the draft.

I have a hunch FA dollars go into the OL.

then we are left with replacing a starting caliber DE at the production level equal to Vernon. So our options if JPP is not on the roster is to pay another FA, hope that the light goes on for the JAGs on the roster, or draft a DE (1st/2nd round).

Who's better: JPP or Vernon?

JPP has 1 more hurry than Vernon. Vernon 1.5 more sacks. JPP 7 passes defensed vs 0 for Vernon. Almost dead even in tackles (38 to 39 edge for Vernon).

[url=http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/players/495200/olivier-vernon/#Tackles%20%26%20Assists$GameType=279588574&SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990]Vernon[/url]

[url=http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/players/504295/jason-pierre-paul/#Tackles%20%26%20Assists$GameType=279588574&SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990]JPP[/url]

Based on the numbers, you can probably make a case that JPP should get a Vernon like contract. Maybe a slight discount due to the injury and him being a year older. In other words, are you prepared to give JPP a 5 yr/$75M deal?

I'm all for bringing him back. Key word: reasonable.

BBI doesn't handle complex links

Vernon

JPP

I suspect that his numbers would look better if he had two good hands.. he's not playing poorly anyway.

JPP is a force out there, knocking down passes,pressure on the QB,stopping the run,playing every play.He is everything that he is supposed to be.

not pat

Down JPP threads from last year and compare and contrast.

The idiocy was strong back then, my friends.

but I doubt they will, you can't keep everyone and the costs must be projected beyond 2017 when you consider OB's extension and more.

the passer, I think the Giants would make JPP a reasonable offer and if he didn't take it, move on, but we don't have that luxury right now. I think they have to re-sign him and go draft a bonafide DE that can be that 3rd guy in the pass rush rotation.

we want him back, it's a question of where the cutoff point is as far as max salary.

The Giants do have money available - but they need to pay guys who are going to hit FA soon (Hankins, Pugh, Richburg) and should be saving up some coin for Beckham.

IMO, I think what JPP makes now is about as much as I'd be willing to pay for him. If he closes out the season the way he started it, then I might be willing to go up a bit more. It's not that he isn't worth it, it's that paying Vernon what we have, I don't think we can allocate another $16m/yr at DE.

Then there's the question of reps - we're working JPP silly this year. Are we better off with a top tier DE getting all those reps, or maybe two 2nd tier DEs splitting the time at less money per year combined?

In comment 13221222 JonC said:

Quote:

but I doubt they will, you can't keep everyone and the costs must be projected beyond 2017 when you consider OB's extension and more.

The more I think on this, the more I'm starting to think they might pay JPP and let Hankins leave.

It would certainly be very Giant-like to pay the DE.

In comment 13221229 jcn56 said:

Quote:

we want him back, it's a question of where the cutoff point is as far as max salary. ... Then there's the question of reps - we're working JPP silly this year. Are we better off with a top tier DE getting all those reps, or maybe two 2nd tier DEs splitting the time at less money per year combined?

So if we go with 2 - 2nd tier DEs, we'll still be in the ballpark of what JPP will command with less production. Look at Ayers. He's making 7.5 mil with 13 tackles and 2.5 sacks. Do you think that paying 2 players a 2nd tier DE market rate contract (7.5 mil x 2) and getting 5 sacks and 26 tackles is a better appropriation of funds? Keep in mind, those new DEs will need to learn the defense and get up to JPP's speed.

DT's do not get paid big dollars unless they are at the top of their position. He is a good, solid player, not top level player

Hankins could get paid 6M per year on a 4/5 year deal and that puts him in the 12-15th paid DT

JPP could get a contract like V. Curry - 5/46. Offer him more guaranteed money and less years. His deal is going to be about guaranteed money

If they want both players, they will be Giants

for a while

to lock up JPP and Hankins. But you don't retain Hankins at JPP's expense. And you don't allow JPP to walk even if it means using the franchise tag. I have a feeling one of these two will get tagged. Probably the one who doesn't agree to a long term deal but hopefully they both do.

They drafted OO to possibly replace JPP but thus far he looks like another 3rd round bust. IF OO was a player there would be little chance they would even off JPP a contract. Okwara looks like he has more ability then OO.

5 years 60 million... Start there and don't stop till you get it done. The only reason to assume the Giants don't have the money for both Hankins and JPP is we have other positions of need where a good chunk will have to spent (All depending of which FA are available of course) we can't invest it all on our DLine. We also have to think ahead and not just spend it all just because we have it while knowing we still have to give long term deals to Pugh, Odell & Weston. Re sign JPP. Re sign Hankins. Extend Pugh. Re-do DRC's deal, cut Cruz, cut Harris, cut J.T, cut Rashad. Sign a above average OL, S and LB. Draft OL, RB, WR. That's what I would do

In the pipeline, I'd let him walk. The problem is we have nothing. Odi looks like another JR 3rd round JAG. Wynn and Okwara are nothing more than bottom of the roster guys who can be replaced with UDFA's any spring. I'm not a fan of the current version of JPP, but the NYG have almost no options. I think round 1 next year has to be an OT, right or left.

through and through, can overcome adversity, has a wonderful history, can even block field goals. Can stop the run, cold, inspires his teammates, and when not doubled, sacks the suckers. Find the $.

And JPP has one and a half, putting him on pace to have maybe 3 on the season. I love how he blocks passes, but he needs to throw in some sacks to be a DE worth a contract, and franchising him would be a joke. The Giants are doing pretty well picking the ball off, and perhaps he plays a significant part in that, but they are 22nd in pass yards allowed, and second to last in sacking the QB. JPP was a franchise player before he blew his hand off because the Giants had zero depth at the position, they were pathetic when they lost him. At least the previous year he had 10.5 sacks, and he made Robert Ayers (2.5 sacks in 5 games this year) a better player when he finally came back with the club. Wasn't worth it then, but the Giants had no choice. Now he is not coming off a 10 sack season. I have wanted him cut since the day he blew his hand off and fucked the Giants over. Cant sign him, and PLEASE! How is this guy worth tagging? A 3 sack DE gets the franchise tag?

For starters, try a couple line breaks here and there, eh?

Secondly, you don't seem to know a lot about football. JPP is playing very well.

The bloogers were united...drop this bum. He wouldn't even let the Giants see the hand...and on and on.
The Giants brought him back when they didn't have to. I think he appreciated that. He signed for us for LESS than he could have gotten elsewhere.
I believe there's a connection and that he might give a home discount and finish his career here.
The accident notwithstanding, I've come to see him as a quality guy with huge talent.
Before this year is over he and Vernon are going to be forces.

In comment 13221053 yatqb said:

Quote:

I think that it's a huge risk and in the NFL, you've gotta ask, "What would BB do?" We know that the Pats would wave goodbye to him lickety split.

We don't know that. The pats do sign and keep guys long term. Their passing game is comprised of guys like Brady, Edelman and gronk-- all long term guys.

And the pats made an awful decision when they traded away Jamie Collins. It may or may not pay off years from now but it's gonna hurt them this year.

as much as Vernon because they are playing at the same level. Vernon, at his current production, is over paid. He's not paying badly, but he's being paid a superstar's salary and he doesn't have superstar production. You don't make the same mistake with JPP.

In comment 13221085 Gman11 said:

Quote:

the beginning of the season. However, 10 million bucks is a lot of money for somebody that doesn't get sacks. Right now, he's far and away the best option at LDE, but that's only because the other guys are JAGs or worse.

JPP is one of the biggest DE bargains in the NFL right now. He's playing at an elite level for non elite money.

In comment 13221348 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

For starters, try a couple line breaks here and there, eh? Secondly, you don't seem to know a lot about football. JPP is playing very well.

Sorry I strained your eyes, but NFL teams pass over 60% of the time on average, and JPP isn't dropping much in coverage, so getting to the QB is pretty much the DEs main responsibility. He's gotten there one and a half times and people want to pay him. Let someone else pay top 5 or top 10 DE money for him. DEs get paid to sack the QB. He aint doing that. Sorry I can't convince myself he is an elite player on his intangibles. The Giants are a good run D because its much easier to pass on them. They are middle of the road total defense. JPP fucked this team. Would have cut his ass July 5th 2015.

In comment 13221361 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 13221053 yatqb said: Quote: I think that it's a huge risk and in the NFL, you've gotta ask, "What would BB do?" We know that the Pats would wave goodbye to him lickety split. We don't know that. The pats do sign and keep guys long term. Their passing game is comprised of guys like Brady, Edelman and gronk-- all long term guys. And the pats made an awful decision when they traded away Jamie Collins. It may or may not pay off years from now but it's gonna hurt them this year.

Collins was playing poorly. It was a great move.

In comment 13221372 Glover said:
[quote] In comment 13221348 LakeGeorgeGiant said:


Quote:


For starters, try a couple line breaks here and there, eh?

Secondly, you don't seem to know a lot about football. JPP is playing very well.


And I do recognize he is a stud against the run, but if I'm a GM, I want my DEs to get to the QB. Call me crazy. Or I would play a 3-4.

as much as you can afford. He's a keeper. Those batted passes are such awesome defensive plays. He hasn't gotten sack numbers but I see him running downfield after rbs, finishing plays, great energy.

Is he eligible for a franchise tag again? I'm not sure a franchise tag is a good arrangement at this point in his career. It might serve to discourage him.

So I don't see how it's going to be hard to find the money for these guys.

The best NFL comp for JPP is Peppers. Very similar players. Peppers kicked ass well after the age of 29. CAR let him go and he had plenty left.

JPP has been outstanding all year. Not just one or two games. Not just recently. It started in he Dallas game in week 1. JPP was one of the biggest factors in that week 1 win.

Every game. Every play. JPP is one of the best at his position. Giants should do everything they can to sign him.

When somebody throws that out there just move on to the next post.

Wow and you busted out the CAPS too?

but we got nothing behind him...nothing.

Forcing the 1st round pick to be a DE when we also need a RG, RT, TE, WR and LB.

So flip a coin...

RE: He's playing better than he did at
djm : 8:32 pm : link : reply
In comment 13221085 Gman11 said:
Quote:
the beginning of the season. However, 10 million bucks is a lot of money for somebody that doesn't get sacks.

Right now, he's far and away the best option at LDE, but that's only because the other guys are JAGs or worse.



JPP is one of the biggest DE bargains in the NFL right now. He's playing at an elite level for non elite money.




When I hear words like elite and outstanding, I don't think of JPP.....pressures don't indicate whether a pass was successful or not....a sack does....

I have seen this guy sucked inside so many times this year, and have see qb's run around his side because he did not contain.....I have seen TE's block him one on one.....he does not have a plethora of moves.....a tackle that sticks him, stops him right in his tracks....

To say this guy is not getting elite money, is crazy.....what did he do last year and the year before, and the year before to warrant a contract that makes him the 7th highest cap hit for DE's? That's not elite money? He's 1M away from being top four....

We see flashes from JPP, yes.....he is not the elite run stopper he is made out to be.....his sack totals don't warrant what he is getting paid....you don't break the bank for this guy....you sign him to a favorable deal....otherwise, if he is looking for big bucks, bye bye...

Doomster...it's been explained often here. Some of you are too fuxkkng dense to get it.

Your comments on sacks and pressures says it all.

On game day just grab an ice cream cone and try to enjoy what your watching. You don't have a clue what you're watching but just try and enjoy it with a little snack.

Quote:

...pressures don't indicate whether a pass was successful or not....a sack does....

You should be embarassed to post this nonsense.

maybe you should read it again......

I love your high and mighty stance....this is a board for opinions...you disagree, then disagree with facts to change my mind......idiots like you, who think they are the one true poster, make me laugh...

In your opinion, you only consider sacks as a metric of success. Pressures don't count. Does batted passes count in regards to whether a pass was successful or not?

In comment 13221495 Doomster said:

Quote:

When I hear words like elite and outstanding, I don't think of JPP.....pressures don't indicate whether a pass was successful or not....a sack does....

JPP's pressure caused the rams QB to launch up the floater at the end of the game that sealed the win.

Its true that the number on the page doesn't tell you much but if you watch the games you will know that his pressures have been impactful.

Your free to post your opinion and others are free to point out how fucking stupid it is such as that ridiculous line about sacks and pressures.

In comment 13221378 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 13221361 djm said: Quote: In comment 13221053 yatqb said: Quote: I think that it's a huge risk and in the NFL, you've gotta ask, "What would BB do?" We know that the Pats would wave goodbye to him lickety split. We don't know that. The pats do sign and keep guys long term. Their passing game is comprised of guys like Brady, Edelman and gronk-- all long term guys. And the pats made an awful decision when they traded away Jamie Collins. It may or may not pay off years from now but it's gonna hurt them this year. Collins was playing poorly. It was a great move.

HE was playing poorly or at the very least free lancing and making mistakes but make no bones about it Collins is a very very good player. So rather than nurture or try and correct his flaws the Pats dumped him for very little.

I wonder how you'd defend this move if the Pats signed an oft troubled, questionable character, mistake prone player like Randy Moss and tried to fix things with him?

I don't want to rip BB because the guy is the best NFL architect going but this move might burn the Pats this year. Collins might have been worth the effort to salvage his game. The Pats pick their spots, sometimes the wrong spots. They got it right with Moss and others. They were off on the Seymore move and this might hurt them too.

cRE: What?
ron mexico : 9:55 am : link : reply
In comment 13221495 Doomster said:
Quote:

When I hear words like elite and outstanding, I don't think of JPP.....pressures don't indicate whether a pass was successful or not....a sack does....


JPP's pressure caused the rams QB to launch up the floater at the end of the game that sealed the win.


And who was that Ram QB? And the only reason he got there was because no one blocked him....a good qb throws it away, and goes to the next play, you don't heave it up....



Its true that the number on the page doesn't tell you much but if you watch the games you will know that his pressures have been impactful.


have you ever seen stupid plays from him, that are not impactful? Like the first trick play Cinc used? He didn't even rush and Dalton had all the time in the world to throw to Eifert.....

Listen, I never said he sucks....he is a better than average
DE......all I said was, I wouldn't resign him if he was asking for a ridiculous contract....especially Vernon money....

Doomster
KWALL2 : 11:10 am : link : reply
Your free to post your opinion and others are free to point out how fucking stupid it is such as that ridiculous line about sacks and pressures.


What is a pressure/hurry? Basically, all you have done is force the qb to throw the ball early, or forced him out of the pocket....what happens after that? Statistically, IT'S FREAKIN' UNKNOWN! There is no doubt what happens when you have a sack!

I have said in the past, it's very easy to have stat, that if you consider a play a hurry/pressure, that you give it a positive or negative grade, but nobody does it....

For example, qb is forced out of the pocket, and throws an incomplete pass....if JPP does it, he gets a pos grade pressure....if the qb runs with the ball because of the pressure, or completes a pass because of the pressure, than it's a negative pressure......that's about the only way yo can tell if a pressure/hurry has meaning....

So you could have a game where a lineman is credited with 7 pressures in the stat column.....but you don't know if they were pos or neg.....what if only one was a positive? Then 6 of those 7 hurried meant nothing....

I think "labelling" pressure/hurries would be more meaningful......even a neg pressure is not really negative...it's an indicator of a player's ability to rush the qb.....

In comment 13221875 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 13221378 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 13221361 djm said: Quote: In comment 13221053 yatqb said: Quote: I think that it's a huge risk and in the NFL, you've gotta ask, "What would BB do?" We know that the Pats would wave goodbye to him lickety split. We don't know that. The pats do sign and keep guys long term. Their passing game is comprised of guys like Brady, Edelman and gronk-- all long term guys. And the pats made an awful decision when they traded away Jamie Collins. It may or may not pay off years from now but it's gonna hurt them this year. Collins was playing poorly. It was a great move. HE was playing poorly or at the very least free lancing and making mistakes but make no bones about it Collins is a very very good player. So rather than nurture or try and correct his flaws the Pats dumped him for very little. I wonder how you'd defend this move if the Pats signed an oft troubled, questionable character, mistake prone player like Randy Moss and tried to fix things with him? I don't want to rip BB because the guy is the best NFL architect going but this move might burn the Pats this year. Collins might have been worth the effort to salvage his game. The Pats pick their spots, sometimes the wrong spots. They got it right with Moss and others. They were off on the Seymore move and this might hurt them too.

Collins is a free agent after this season. He's been quoted as saying he wants Von Miller money. The Pats aren't stupid enough to give him Miller money, so they maximized what little remaining value (the remainder of this season playing poorly) he had to them.

They aren't going to overpay; instead they're going to keep their pipeline well stocked. They already had Collins's replacement ready to go...the rookie Elandon Roberts (6th round) was playing better than Collins.

Belichick stocks up on young and cheap players, doesn't overcommit to free agents, and gets to the AFC title game every year.

As for Randy Moss, they paid a 4th round pick for him in trade. They probably didn't pay him an enormous contract either. Had he failed they probably could have cut him anytime.

Low risk, high reward. It also sends out the message to the locker room that anyone is replaceable, and even if you're a 7th rounder you can earn an opportunity over an established player.

In comment 13221372 Glover said:

Quote:

In comment 13221348 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: For starters, try a couple line breaks here and there, eh? Secondly, you don't seem to know a lot about football. JPP is playing very well. Sorry I strained your eyes, but NFL teams pass over 60% of the time on average, and JPP isn't dropping much in coverage, so getting to the QB is pretty much the DEs main responsibility. He's gotten there one and a half times and people want to pay him. Let someone else pay top 5 or top 10 DE money for him. DEs get paid to sack the QB. He aint doing that. Sorry I can't convince myself he is an elite player on his intangibles. The Giants are a good run D because its much easier to pass on them. They are middle of the road total defense. JPP fucked this team. Would have cut his ass July 5th 2015.

Aren't you the dude that absolutely despises JPP for literally no discernible reason?

Maybe YOU would have "cut his ass" on July 5th, but at this point, it's been PROVEN that it would have been an atrocious decision.