You rarely see all these big contract guys work out, especially right away. Jenkins, Harrison and Vernon are really showing major return of investment. They're all young guys that despite getting big paycheck, are guys entering their prime with more to prove and are showing it. Getting JPP back on a 1 year deal. Add in the draft where we found 5 rookies that are key contributors...Apple, Shepard, Adams, Perkins, Adams. Even Thompson was a starter before getting hurt.
I've been anti-Reese for a while now but he's done a great job this year getting this team to where they are right now.
Yep. And I know Adams was an UDFA btw.
Not saying that Reese didn't have a good offseason but to me a team that consistently wins close games has solid coaching.
They didn't spend like complete idiots, though. And that was the best part. They scouted players like Jenkins (top flight cover corner), Vernon (young DE who has all the tools and motor, plays better than his stats would show) and Harrison (perfect combo with Hankins) and realized they fit in perfectly with scheme. It wasn't just a "let's just spend money to fix it" kinda thing, which was nice.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
You can make an argument the right side of the line that he "neglected" has been the strongest side of our line this season.
A team that wins close games this year is just as likely to lose the close games next year or split them. The sample sizes within one year are too small to really make a judgment. Take a team like the Falcons who won some close games one year under Mike Smith - I think he was even named coach of the year. shortly thereafter, they had one of the worst records in close games. Sean Payton has had wide fluctuations in his record in close games.
I wouldn't necessarily say it is a factor of luck, but I don't think the argument is there to be made that it is about coaching, the stats don't correlate to it.
The thing is,it's impossible to totally rebuild a team in one offseason.
As bad as our OLine is,our defense was historically worse.
Think about how quickly we struck when free agent started. The amount of resources required to actually sign players. We made a huge push to sign Vernon and Jenkins. Maybe we could,have signed a stud RT,but we may have lost out on one of those guys in the process.
Right now we are 7-3. Are we still 7-3 with out snacks,jack rabbit,Jpp and Vernon? Because it's quite possible we may have lost out on either of those guys.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
Who was really available though?
Donald Penn went back to Oakland, and it looks like that's where he wanted to be all along.
Osemele got paid a shit ton of money - I don't think anyone would be happy with that outlay of funds, especially when some important FAs of our own pending.
Jake Long? Injured before he could do much of anything. Ryan Clady? Part of an underperforming Jets OL.
There were a lot of FA names out there, but not a whole lot of very productive players. For all the hand wringing about the money that Vernon got, he looks like the goods. Can't imagine paying good money and getting subpar performance.
Not saying that Reese didn't have a good offseason but to me a team that consistently wins close games has solid coaching.
Really you think it was the coaching and not the fact that both our top DE's were missing last year.. our best DT wasn't there, our best Corner wasn't there.. We didn't have a FS.. last year our best defensive player was DRC.. right now he is our 6th best defensive player.. It almost has nothing to do with coach and everything to do with $200M that was spent this summer and JPP returning for a full season and without a cast..
(1) Reese had a bunch of crappy drafts and FA acquisitions.
(2) He's been much better on both the last few years.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
Not one acquisition isn't working out, as of now.
Quote:
Not saying that Reese didn't have a good offseason but to me a team that consistently wins close games has solid coaching
A team that wins close games this year is just as likely to lose the close games next year or split them. The sample sizes within one year are too small to really make a judgment. Take a team like the Falcons who won some close games one year under Mike Smith - I think he was even named coach of the year. shortly thereafter, they had one of the worst records in close games. Sean Payton has had wide fluctuations in his record in close games.
I wouldn't necessarily say it is a factor of luck, but I don't think the argument is there to be made that it is about coaching, the stats don't correlate to it.
(1) Reese had a bunch of crappy drafts and FA acquisitions.
(2) He's been much better on both the last few years.
Bingo.
That statement is about as valid as Parcells' is to the topic.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
The offensive line has two #1 picks (Pugh, Flowers), a #2 pick (Richburg), a more-or-less successful 7th-round development project (Hart) and a veteran free agent (Jerry). Since 2011 they have drafted Eric Herman, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants and James Brewer. They also signed Brett Jones and Marshall Newhouse, to name two guys who are on the team.
It's not "zero attention." It's whiffing on a bunch of draft picks. That's worse, IMO. I keep saying it: If they were neglecting the line, you'd just say "Well, they need to fix that." But they've been trying to fix it for years and most of their efforts have been ineffective.
Not saying that Reese didn't have a good offseason but to me a team that consistently wins close games has solid coaching.
Hmm, still not sold on this. Our offense was better last year, so from that perspective I have to think last years team with this years defense is in the playoffs and doing some damage.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
It will burn him from time to time, but I like McAdoo's daring.
(1) Reese had a bunch of crappy drafts and FA acquisitions.
(2) He's been much better on both the last few years.
Is Jerry Reese related to Floyd Reese?
Doesn't matter who was daring or old school or both. If we had this year's D, TC would still be coaching here imv, whether people wanted him to go or not..
Doesn't matter who was daring or old school or both. If we had this year's D, TC would still be coaching here imv, whether people wanted him to go or not..
Yeah people on this thread act like its just coaching.. they have added a ton of talent to this team.. Much more than anytime in JR's career and it has shown.. This years defense if you include collins improvement has 6-7 players better than any player on last years defense..
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
They did nothing to upgrade the right side of the OL,
either thru free agency or the draft, I wouldn't call it
a myth. You had former backups as starters, because of injury, Newhouse was replaced. Hart is a slight upgrade.
I like the free agent acquisitions, the owner told him
to spend on the D, and he did.
I want to see if they make the playoffs now, the last
5 games will tell us how good they are.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
Quote:
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
They did nothing to upgrade the right side of the OL,
either thru free agency or the draft, I wouldn't call it
a myth. You had former backups as starters, because of injury, Newhouse was replaced. Hart is a slight upgrade.
I like the free agent acquisitions, the owner told him
to spend on the D, and he did.
I want to see if they make the playoffs now, the last
5 games will tell us how good they are.
Closer to a myth than not..No one who was not injury prone was signed. Penn never got on the plane that was scheduled to land in Jersey as the Raiders came through at the eleventh hour. Osemele and Schwartz were signed rather quickly. We were, correctly, concentrating on signing our big ticket difference-makers for a severely lacking D..
Not sure who was available in the draft that would have been an upgrade(without trading up)..Tunsil? They had their reasons..It's not as if Eli, with just OBJ available last year, didn't move this O with the OL he had last year..There was no one available that would have been an upgrade unless you think a big name has been would have done the trick..
Quote:
We wouldn't be seeing these rookies and Larry Donnell would still be the starting TE.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
He did go for it on 4th down many times. When it failed he was tarred and feathered for it..Revisionist thinking
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In comment 13228210 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
We wouldn't be seeing these rookies and Larry Donnell would still be the starting TE.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
He did go for it on 4th down many times. When it failed he was tarred and feathered for it..Revisionist thinking
Really, inside the 10 yard line, that's revisionist thinking.
Quote:
In comment 13228286 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228210 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
We wouldn't be seeing these rookies and Larry Donnell would still be the starting TE.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
He did go for it on 4th down many times. When it failed he was tarred and feathered for it..Revisionist thinking
Really, inside the 10 yard line, that's revisionist thinking.
And you would be wrong
Quote:
In comment 13228125 David in LA said:
Quote:
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
They did nothing to upgrade the right side of the OL,
either thru free agency or the draft, I wouldn't call it
a myth. You had former backups as starters, because of injury, Newhouse was replaced. Hart is a slight upgrade.
I like the free agent acquisitions, the owner told him
to spend on the D, and he did.
I want to see if they make the playoffs now, the last
5 games will tell us how good they are.
Closer to a myth than not..No one who was not injury prone was signed. Penn never got on the plane that was scheduled to land in Jersey as the Raiders came through at the eleventh hour. Osemele and Schwartz were signed rather quickly. We were, correctly, concentrating on signing our big ticket difference-makers for a severely lacking D..
Not sure who was available in the draft that would have been an upgrade(without trading up)..Tunsil? They had their reasons..It's not as if Eli, with just OBJ available last year, didn't move this O with the OL he had last year..There was no one available that would have been an upgrade unless you think a big name has been would have done the trick..
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
You're a big Reese guy, gotcha.
I'm a firm believer that Coughlin had a huge say in player acquisition and wasn't getting the job done. This past year, Reese and company retook the reins from the coaching staff, with positive results. it isn't an all or nothing deal, but the group dynamic is much improved with TC gone. there were several public comments in the offseason how Reese's role was increasing while coaches role was decreasing
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In comment 13228305 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228286 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228210 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
We wouldn't be seeing these rookies and Larry Donnell would still be the starting TE.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
He did go for it on 4th down many times. When it failed he was tarred and feathered for it..Revisionist thinking
Really, inside the 10 yard line, that's revisionist thinking.
And you would be wrong
Actually, you should have watched the games more carefully.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 13228281 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228125 David in LA said:
Quote:
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
They did nothing to upgrade the right side of the OL,
either thru free agency or the draft, I wouldn't call it
a myth. You had former backups as starters, because of injury, Newhouse was replaced. Hart is a slight upgrade.
I like the free agent acquisitions, the owner told him
to spend on the D, and he did.
I want to see if they make the playoffs now, the last
5 games will tell us how good they are.
Closer to a myth than not..No one who was not injury prone was signed. Penn never got on the plane that was scheduled to land in Jersey as the Raiders came through at the eleventh hour. Osemele and Schwartz were signed rather quickly. We were, correctly, concentrating on signing our big ticket difference-makers for a severely lacking D..
Not sure who was available in the draft that would have been an upgrade(without trading up)..Tunsil? They had their reasons..It's not as if Eli, with just OBJ available last year, didn't move this O with the OL he had last year..There was no one available that would have been an upgrade unless you think a big name has been would have done the trick..
.
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
You're a big Reese guy, gotcha.
Well, you've heard the narrative many times. Most, if not all of it, is true..Tell me WHO we should have signed(even if available, NOT EVERYBODY wants to play in NY/NJ)? WHO should we have drafted? I'm not being sarcastic and trying to be respectful here. Please give me WHO (FA and draft) that already hasn't been rationally explained over and over again..
Quote:
In comment 13228286 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228210 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
We wouldn't be seeing these rookies and Larry Donnell would still be the starting TE.
Again, I agree with the OP on Reese, just saying that McAdoo deserves credit as well.
.
Under Coughlin, they wouldn't be going for it on 4th down,
field goal.
He did go for it on 4th down many times. When it failed he was tarred and feathered for it..Revisionist thinking
Really, inside the 10 yard line, that's revisionist thinking.
4th and 2 at the Jets 4 yard line, up 10, 4th quarter, 12/6/15
But WFAN's Mike Francesa actually believed the veteran bench boss made the right call.
"I agree with what Tom did," he said on Monday. "First of all, he's got the worst defense in the league, he's got the worst defense in the league against the pass. He's got a defense that's been the worst late-game defense in the league this year as it was going to prove again, in this game. He's 4th-and-2. All he can do is go up 13, which means two possessions beat him!"
"If he had gone up 13 there and they gave up two touchdowns, which they very easily could have done," he continued, "because the Jets had two terrific drives, if they lose by a point, you're gonna kill him for not going on that 4th-and-2. What's your choice there? You end the game with one play or you leave them right there ... you have a chance to end the game right at that moment and go up 17 points."
Mike Francesa thinks Giants' Tom Coughlin made right 4th down call vs. Jets - ( New Window )
Would have been a HR off-season if he signed JPP to 3 or 4 years.
It will burn him from time to time, but I like McAdoo's daring.
Exactly! Open up the mind, open up new horizons.
It will burn him from time to time, but I like McAdoo's daring.
MVP this season were Mara and Tisch's wallets.
One thing I don't really see mentioned I wouldn't be surprised if it was maras decision to roll with what we had instead of replacing aging players after the super bowl win in 2011 since we had one coming up in our stadium. That created such a hole that we are just now crawling out of
So yes he deserves credit for beginning to fix the mess he created.
I'm a firm believer that Coughlin had a huge say in player acquisition and wasn't getting the job done. This past year, Reese and company retook the reins from the coaching staff, with positive results. it isn't an all or nothing deal, but the group dynamic is much improved with TC gone. there were several public comments in the offseason how Reese's role was increasing while coaches role was decreasing
This +1
So yes he deserves credit for beginning to fix the mess he created.
Well, #1 killer of our talent was injuries. Who takes the blame for going to bat for Palmieri with his outdated S&C program, and laundry list of soft tissue injuries?
Quote:
Not saying that Reese didn't have a good offseason but to me a team that consistently wins close games has solid coaching
A team that wins close games this year is just as likely to lose the close games next year or split them. The sample sizes within one year are too small to really make a judgment. Take a team like the Falcons who won some close games one year under Mike Smith - I think he was even named coach of the year. shortly thereafter, they had one of the worst records in close games. Sean Payton has had wide fluctuations in his record in close games.
I wouldn't necessarily say it is a factor of luck, but I don't think the argument is there to be made that it is about coaching, the stats don't correlate to it.
I think that this is correct, for the most part, but I would offer that for a team that consistently lost close games last year and are winning them this year, it's worth considering the value of the variance in aggressiveness between Coughlin and McAdoo. Not just in his willingness to attempt 4th down conversions, but also in aggressive defense late in games. That said, there's also a talent variance on defense this year vs 2015, so it's very difficult to isolate one key factor.
Ultimately, I think the human condition requires change every so often in order to succeed, and in this case, McAdoo's approach that the team needed "evolution, not revolution" has proven to be a savvy choice thus far.
David in LA : 1:51 pm : link : reply
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
Had to spend a shit pile of Money because nothing much else
draft wise has panned out ....
But I am HAPPY we are Playing well ......
Oh and the Number one reason is our QB....
Quote:
In comment 13228299 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228281 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13228125 David in LA said:
Quote:
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
This is the biggest myth that keeps getting passed around here.
They did nothing to upgrade the right side of the OL,
either thru free agency or the draft, I wouldn't call it
a myth. You had former backups as starters, because of injury, Newhouse was replaced. Hart is a slight upgrade.
I like the free agent acquisitions, the owner told him
to spend on the D, and he did.
I want to see if they make the playoffs now, the last
5 games will tell us how good they are.
Closer to a myth than not..No one who was not injury prone was signed. Penn never got on the plane that was scheduled to land in Jersey as the Raiders came through at the eleventh hour. Osemele and Schwartz were signed rather quickly. We were, correctly, concentrating on signing our big ticket difference-makers for a severely lacking D..
Not sure who was available in the draft that would have been an upgrade(without trading up)..Tunsil? They had their reasons..It's not as if Eli, with just OBJ available last year, didn't move this O with the OL he had last year..There was no one available that would have been an upgrade unless you think a big name has been would have done the trick..
.
I'm sorry, I have heard that narrative too many times.
If you want to do something, you do it.
You're a big Reese guy, gotcha.
Well, you've heard the narrative many times. Most, if not all of it, is true..Tell me WHO we should have signed(even if available, NOT EVERYBODY wants to play in NY/NJ)? WHO should we have drafted? I'm not being sarcastic and trying to be respectful here. Please give me WHO (FA and draft) that already hasn't been rationally explained over and over again..
Carson youre still a Giants fan ?
Answer the question
As far as Reese goes, I have mixed feelings.
I guess I wonder what G.M. couldn't have done a good job with $200 million to spend?
My question is: Why did we have so many holes to begin with?
People will say that I love Coughlin and hate Reese, and will only argue like it's a black and white issue. Not true. I'm a Giants fan and want the Giants to win, period.
The truth is, I was one of the most vocal "In Reese We Trust" posters on the board through 2012. I used to defend him with the same persistence that I did Coughlin. My sole problem with Reese was letting the offensive and defensive lines deteriorate, and this part is the key, while waiting too long to try and address it. I believe it was this neglect that singlehandedly caused our demise for 3 and a 1/2 straight seasons. By the time he addressed it, it was too late and we're still climbing out of the hole. Now you can heap all the blame you want on Coughlin for 2012-2015, but he's gone now. No more excuses for this offensive line going forward.
I don't want Reese to fail, I want him to succeed. I don't want McAdoo to fail, I hope he wins the Superbowl.
Coughlin already lost his job for his part in the collapse. So for me, the jury is still out on Reese. I'm still waiting patiently for a competent O-line.
Reese had a bad spell..He screwed up the S position in 2009..Unfortunately, Snee unexpectedly had career-ending injuries. Beatty had repeated injuries..So let's say he screwed up the OL. He's rectifying things with the OL..If Newsome can get a pass for crappy drafts, so can Reese..
Had a terrific 2005-like FA haul. Has drafted well of late. HOW LONG is he going to be called out for some lousy shit? Enough already..All that matters NOW is how he's done of late and moving forward..
One reason, as Jay posted, were the injuries that ended some very bright careers prematurely.
Second, a well-documented stretch of very poor drafting and third, a stretch of poor performances from pro personnel on the free agency front.
Pro careers average four seasons on average, if you're experiencing the issues above, you can easily drain a roster within this timespan.
They need another strong offseason to infuse talent on the OL, RB, LB, and could quickly and suddenly have needs at DE, CB, perhaps even WR.
Again, I think we all want the same thing.
They need another strong offseason to infuse talent on the OL, RB, LB, and could quickly and suddenly have needs at DE, CB, perhaps even WR.
We need a WR/TE desparately next year. We still dont have a big bodied receiver to make catches when they are guarded. And outside of OBJ, we dont have any catch and run guys. Shit look at the raiders game last night, their RB and FB both took short passes in for TDs. We still rely on OBJ to be our offense with a sprinkle of SS.
We have 1 TD outside of OBJ longer than 35 yards this year, and that was by our strong safety. That puts way too much pressure on your offense to have long sustaining drives.
It will burn him from time to time, but I like McAdoo's daring.
Except last year when Coughlin pretty much elected to go for the win, fail, and subsequently get roasted by everyone for playing too aggressively.
There's enough dirt on Coughlin's grave.
It usually takes the herd a few weeks to catch up to reality. The last 3 weeks the Giants OL was very good and they did so against quality beef up front. Never mind that though...the OL still sucks I guess.
When are we allowed to praise the OL for November? Let me know...do they still suck balls?
Go watch the Vikings OL piss all over the field for 4 quarters and tell me that the Giants OL sucks. Thanks.
The pass protection has been adequate, but like we saw on Sunday, Eli did a lot to negate pass rush by moving around in the pocket, like he always has.
We have invested 2 1sts and a 2nd into the O-line over the past three seasons, and people are expecting better returns on that. That's not some delusional line of thinking.
Is "good enough to win" equal to "deserving praise"?
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
The whole "zero attention" thing is a myth. But the reality is worse than that.
The offensive line has two #1 picks (Pugh, Flowers), a #2 pick (Richburg), a more-or-less successful 7th-round development project (Hart) and a veteran free agent (Jerry). Since 2011 they have drafted Eric Herman, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants and James Brewer. They also signed Brett Jones and Marshall Newhouse, to name two guys who are on the team.
It's not "zero attention." It's whiffing on a bunch of draft picks. That's worse, IMO. I keep saying it: If they were neglecting the line, you'd just say "Well, they need to fix that." But they've been trying to fix it for years and most of their efforts have been ineffective.
Personally, I think the year before was the time to fix it. I would have liked a player like Bryan Bulaga who, while nothing special, plays solidly at a few positions and would have solidified the line.
Having said that, the line has the potential to come together as this year keep smoving forward. Richburg and Flowers will keep improving and have time to find their games. Hart and Jones have flashed as well.
We might be on to something with regards to having a decent line, but man, watching Dallas's O-line makes me very jealous.
La'el Collins really annoys the shit out of me also
Quote:
In comment 13228023 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
...that zero attention was paid to OL.
Will Beatty seemed like a 'last resort' to me.
The whole "zero attention" thing is a myth. But the reality is worse than that.
The offensive line has two #1 picks (Pugh, Flowers), a #2 pick (Richburg), a more-or-less successful 7th-round development project (Hart) and a veteran free agent (Jerry). Since 2011 they have drafted Eric Herman, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants and James Brewer. They also signed Brett Jones and Marshall Newhouse, to name two guys who are on the team.
It's not "zero attention." It's whiffing on a bunch of draft picks. That's worse, IMO. I keep saying it: If they were neglecting the line, you'd just say "Well, they need to fix that." But they've been trying to fix it for years and most of their efforts have been ineffective.
Zero attention is a myth, but the job was not finished.
Personally, I think the year before was the time to fix it. I would have liked a player like Bryan Bulaga who, while nothing special, plays solidly at a few positions and would have solidified the line.
Having said that, the line has the potential to come together as this year keep smoving forward. Richburg and Flowers will keep improving and have time to find their games. Hart and Jones have flashed as well.
We might be on to something with regards to having a decent line, but man, watching Dallas's O-line makes me very jealous.
La'el Collins really annoys the shit out of me also
I also think the line could improve as the year moves forward, especially with the return of Pugh.
I'm just tired of the potential, now I'm ready to see the results. With the resources we've put into the line lately, they need to start performing up to their draft status.
The good news is, if they do gel this season, we'll likely be peaking at the right time provided everything else stays consistent. The addition of a consistent running game could really be a nice boost that propels us into the playoffs and beyond.
Jon, it's way too early for a definitive opinion of course, but are you liking the progress of Hart?
You could be right, but TC was the recipient of terrible injury misfortune, for years
What I wonder is if it at all marginalized Ross and Chris Mara, as we hoped.
I'd rather have young guys with the arrow ostensibly pointing up at this point in the season than old guys who are clearly on the downside of their career, like the 00 Giants line (from what I remember, I was 11, lol)