There was a thread on PFF's rating on Flowers that said he gave up nine pressures and was awful in pass protection. I don't agree with this assessment.
He had some struggles in pass protection and wasn't great, but he wasn't awful. I counted 39 pass plays to review. Here are the 7 worst plays from Flowers in pass protection. The other 32 he basically gets the job done as good as you expect.
4-2-CHI 17 (4:35 in 1st) – Complete to Shepard
Flowers is beat, but Eli has room to step up and completes the pass.
2-9-NYG 26 (15:00 in 2nd) Holding penalty on Flowers
2-10-NYG 15 (8:26 in 2nd) Complete to Jennings for 12 yards
Flowers gets beat (kind of) he pushes Floyd to the ground as he goes by. Eli has room to step up pretty easily, but if there was other pressure, it would have been an issue.
3-10-CHI 28 (3:43 in 3rd) Incomplete, should have been intercepted.
Flowers gets pushed back and allows a pressure, but Jerry is beaten worse, and Hart doesn’t do particularly well on this play either.
1-9-CHI 9 (11:15 in 1st) Incomplete
Flowers is beat to the inside. Newhouse isn’t able to pick up the DE, the DT loops around and gets a pressure since Flowers isn’t there to pick him up. This was poor on both Flowers and Newhouse, but I think it was more on Flowers than Newhouse. I could see an argument the other way, though.
2-10-CHI 21 (7:36 in 3rd)
Flowers beaten to the outside holds Floyd around the neck, but fortunately doesn’t draw a holding penalty. If he holds on even a little longer there is probably a flag, as it was it could have (and probably should have) been called.
3-4-NYG 37 (10:24 in 4th)
Floyd dropped into coverage and Flowers is blocking Washington. He gets around him, but rather slowly and since Eli is throwing quick he doesn’t impact the play. If Eli had to hold the ball longer, he would have had to step up.
So, I didn't think he was great in pass protection, but he certainly doesn't deserve to be listed as in the top 10 worst performers across the whole league this week.
I'll bet people are evaluating the Bears pass rush and saying that they only beat the LT in 7 of 39 plays. They have to do much better than that.
Floyd had 58 snaps, most of them matched with Flowers and all of his efforts contributed to one incomplete pass (play #4, where the whole pocket is under pressure).
Granted, Floyd should have gotten the holding call in his favor in play #6, which was the play before the Giants scored their last TD and could have changed the outcome. That is a legit concern with Flowers but doesn't mean he had a bad game.
It wasn't meant to argue that Flowers had a great game in pass protection. He didn't. He had some struggles. He obviously needs to keep getting better. It was only meant to defend him against the over the top criticism from PFF listing as one of the 10 worst players this week across the NFL. He wasn't nearly that bad. Against Green Bay, he was that bad. Here I would say he was a little below average for a starting left tackle.
He had more bad plays than what you would like to see, but all of these plays are equally bad. Several of them were less than what you want from your tackle, but relatively easy for Eli to avoid or throw before it mattered.
The purpose really was to show what his bad plays looked like so that people could make up their own minds about what they think. Speaking of which, I just realized I put the wrong quarter for a couple of the plays. So if anyone is going back and reviewing the plays for themself: the 3-10-CHI 28 was 3:43 in the 2nd and the 1-9-CHI 9 was 11:15 in the 3rd. They should be in the order they occurred in the game.
Because people here need a reason to get pissed at Reese, or to blame him for something. So...they basically want Flowers to be bad. In all seriousness.
As for moving him to RT, keep in mind even though they kicked tires on multiple LTs last offseason, a big reason they didn't sign one is very likely because they told them they'd be playing RT while EF is entrenched on the blind side.
I've never seen such a strange phenomenon on a message board where there are literally several posters who will only post comments that degrade the GM.
I've never seen such a strange phenomenon on a message board where there are literally several posters who will only post comments that degrade the GM.
It never fails...
But he is struggling with what was already a known issue for him, technique. He was so dominant for so long with bad technique that he really needs to have the muscle memory Solari is teaching pounded into him with repetition, over and over again. And even if that happens? Guess what he'll revert to when he slips? The same old bad technique. Muscle memory is very powerful. The good news is he has gotten consistently better. He is going to have issues where he slides backwards but if he keeps consistently improving he will be a great LT. He's already good, he just needs to keep improving.
2) At what position will your mistakes most likely be exposed, and
3) At what position will you regularly face the most physical player on the opposing team?
How many opposing D-lineman are saying, "Good, I get to face Flowers this week"?
How many opposing D-lineman are saying, "Flowers is only going to get worse"?
Gene, last year he gutted it out essentially on one leg. He has a new OL coach in Solari, considered one of the better ones in the league. I have no idea how long it will take for him to reach his potential, but Solari is the guy you'd want from all indications..It's 2/3 into the season and he's improving. I opt to be patient with him
Well, no, because that wouldn't make sense. If he's still inconsistent and struggling in year 3, that's an issue, as most here have said.
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that's nearly 20%. I don't think that's acceptable in Pop Warner. If this is a defense of Flowers, i'd hate to see a critical piece.
It wasn't meant to argue that Flowers had a great game in pass protection. He didn't. He had some struggles. He obviously needs to keep getting better. It was only meant to defend him against the over the top criticism from PFF listing as one of the 10 worst players this week across the NFL. He wasn't nearly that bad. Against Green Bay, he was that bad. Here I would say he was a little below average for a starting left tackle.
He had more bad plays than what you would like to see, but all of these plays are equally bad. Several of them were less than what you want from your tackle, but relatively easy for Eli to avoid or throw before it mattered.
The purpose really was to show what his bad plays looked like so that people could make up their own minds about what they think. Speaking of which, I just realized I put the wrong quarter for a couple of the plays. So if anyone is going back and reviewing the plays for themself: the 3-10-CHI 28 was 3:43 in the 2nd and the 1-9-CHI 9 was 11:15 in the 3rd. They should be in the order they occurred in the game.
Could you post a review of a left tackle that everyone agrees is pretty good, not the best in the league but a top 10 LT. I am guessing they mistake too.
This "guy" is a 22 year old kid who kid pound you an all his critics into sea salt
He will be around 24-25 when his contract is up where he should be in his prime which could give the Giants a LT to build with for the future for the next QB. If not then you let him test the market
IMO its worth the investment and the risk so save your shit until later
Simple fact is he hurt his team on 20% of pass plays, way too many.
And, while he didn't give up a sack, the holding penalty is almost as bad. I'd love to see the stats, % of first downs gained when a holding penalty is called on the offense. It's a drive killer, hurts field position, and makes the offense one dimensional if it happens on 1st/2nd down, basically same as a sack.
Simple fact is he hurt his team on 20% of pass plays, way too many.
And, while he didn't give up a sack, the holding penalty is almost as bad. I'd love to see the stats, % of first downs gained when a holding penalty is called on the offense. It's a drive killer, hurts field position, and makes the offense one dimensional if it happens on 1st/2nd down, basically same as a sack.
look around chillywilly , thats the entire league.
100% agree.
See? This is the type of ignorant bullshit that I can't stand on this site. The guy is a baby who came out of a college program where he played two seasons as a LT starting as a 19 year old. He's played about 45 games in five years after graduating high school. Think about that for a second before you spout off nonsense.
His curve is steep but he's already made really solid progress coming out of his rookie season. He's playing with no TE to speak of, a revolving door at G and two position coaches plus two head coaches in two years. Yet people here demand that he's Anthony Munoz right out of the gate. What i want to see is progress. And we're seeing that.
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this guy was a number 1 pick who in his second year as a starter. It's about time he started establishing the dominance his ardent admirers keep predicting for him.
See? This is the type of ignorant bullshit that I can't stand on this site. The guy is a baby who came out of a college program where he played two seasons as a LT starting as a 19 year old. He's played about 45 games in five years after graduating high school. Think about that for a second before you spout off nonsense.
His curve is steep but he's already made really solid progress coming out of his rookie season. He's playing with no TE to speak of, a revolving door at G and two position coaches plus two head coaches in two years. Yet people here demand that he's Anthony Munoz right out of the gate. What i want to see is progress. And we're seeing that.
Well, he's not Tyron Smith yet. So...he sucks. Don't forget that. In fact, tell it to everyone you know. Coworkers, friends, etc.
These same people will never be satisfied. Reese = satan. Eli = washed up. McAdoo = can already tell he won't cut it. Defense = yeah but we spent all that money. Did I miss anything?
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this guy was a number 1 pick who in his second year as a starter. It's about time he started establishing the dominance his ardent admirers keep predicting for him.
See? This is the type of ignorant bullshit that I can't stand on this site. The guy is a baby who came out of a college program where he played two seasons as a LT starting as a 19 year old. He's played about 45 games in five years after graduating high school. Think about that for a second before you spout off nonsense.
His curve is steep but he's already made really solid progress coming out of his rookie season. He's playing with no TE to speak of, a revolving door at G and two position coaches plus two head coaches in two years. Yet people here demand that he's Anthony Munoz right out of the gate. What i want to see is progress. And we're seeing that.
To my amateur eyes, I don't see much, if any, improvement in the kid since last year.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think he sucks (nor did I think so last year) but he has his problems. Agree the most important thing to assess is improvement/development (and not just game-to-game), but i just would not give him a higher grade now than this time last season.
Fair?
Wow...never thought of it that way. Interesting, yet completely accurate take.
To my amateur eyes, I don't see much, if any, improvement in the kid since last year.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think he sucks (nor did I think so last year) but he has his problems. Agree the most important thing to assess is improvement/development (and not just game-to-game), but i just would not give him a higher grade now than this time last season.
Fair?
That's....kinda fair. But I don't think he showed any dominance last season, or had any games where he shined/didn't struggle at times. This season, there has been games where he's been really really good. So...I'd say his inconsistency has improved...if that makes sense.
Not T. Smith, M. Kalil looked good his R season and almost got cut this year before getting hurt because of how awful he has been. E. Fisher, L. Joeckel, J. Matthews, G. Robinson.
Enough of this. He looks light years better than last year
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In comment 13229355 HomerJones45 said:
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this guy was a number 1 pick who in his second year as a starter. It's about time he started establishing the dominance his ardent admirers keep predicting for him.
See? This is the type of ignorant bullshit that I can't stand on this site. The guy is a baby who came out of a college program where he played two seasons as a LT starting as a 19 year old. He's played about 45 games in five years after graduating high school. Think about that for a second before you spout off nonsense.
His curve is steep but he's already made really solid progress coming out of his rookie season. He's playing with no TE to speak of, a revolving door at G and two position coaches plus two head coaches in two years. Yet people here demand that he's Anthony Munoz right out of the gate. What i want to see is progress. And we're seeing that.
That's ok, you spew your own bullshit like the excuses you come up with for Flowers' performance.
No excuses here. I think he's played pretty damned well despite those circumstances.
Name another LT in the nfl who has the same resume. I'll wait.
To my amateur eyes, I don't see much, if any, improvement in the kid since last year.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think he sucks (nor did I think so last year) but he has his problems. Agree the most important thing to assess is improvement/development (and not just game-to-game), but i just would not give him a higher grade now than this time last season.
Fair?
I disagree. He's been significantly better than he was at this point last season. He was one of the worst starting OTs in football last year (obviously the bad ankle didn't help) and while he hasn't been 'good' this year, I think he's been close to average at LT.
I don't put any money on those any more.
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but too many on this thread actually sound like you are setting the bar too low with this guy.
To my amateur eyes, I don't see much, if any, improvement in the kid since last year.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think he sucks (nor did I think so last year) but he has his problems. Agree the most important thing to assess is improvement/development (and not just game-to-game), but i just would not give him a higher grade now than this time last season.
Fair?
I disagree. He's been significantly better than he was at this point last season. He was one of the worst starting OTs in football last year (obviously the bad ankle didn't help) and while he hasn't been 'good' this year, I think he's been close to average at LT.
Got it. So based on how you answered, which OTs has he passed from last year to this one?
I don't put any money on those any more.
Provide a list of 1st round busts, because the 1st round is where Reese has the most input on the selections. I'll be waiting on this list of typical Reese picks. Some of the stuff that gets said about the guy, I'm shocked that no one has accused him of being a secret Muslim or born in Kenya.
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In comment 13229836 Jimmy Googs said:
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but too many on this thread actually sound like you are setting the bar too low with this guy.
To my amateur eyes, I don't see much, if any, improvement in the kid since last year.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think he sucks (nor did I think so last year) but he has his problems. Agree the most important thing to assess is improvement/development (and not just game-to-game), but i just would not give him a higher grade now than this time last season.
Fair?
I disagree. He's been significantly better than he was at this point last season. He was one of the worst starting OTs in football last year (obviously the bad ankle didn't help) and while he hasn't been 'good' this year, I think he's been close to average at LT.
Got it. So based on how you answered, which OTs has he passed from last year to this one?
Well, top o' the head I'd say Da"Brick Ferguson (I know he's retired) and Gilliam for Seattle. They were the two directly behind him in pressures allowed last year.
But see this is something people forget (not saying you're one of them, Greg). He wasn't installed as the Day 1 starter - he was thrust into the LT job once Beatty got hurt lifting weights. The original plan was to have him play RT if I'm not mistaken. That position allows for a bit more leeway and isn't nearly as scrutinized as LT. Even a year at RT allows him to adapt a bit to the speed, physicality, schemes and athleticism that the professional game demands.
Instead, he's thrown into the fire immediately following an injury. For me, this has turned out to be a positive. There have been plenty of OLmen who entered this league highly-touted and ended up crapping out in a year or two. Flowers has gotten better - and long term - that's going to pay huge dividends for this team. Especially once Eli is gone and if Flowers remains.