There was a thread on PFF's rating on Flowers that said he gave up nine pressures and was awful in pass protection. I don't agree with this assessment.
He had some struggles in pass protection and wasn't great, but he wasn't awful. I counted 39 pass plays to review. Here are the 7 worst plays from Flowers in pass protection. The other 32 he basically gets the job done as good as you expect.
4-2-CHI 17 (4:35 in 1st) – Complete to Shepard
Flowers is beat, but Eli has room to step up and completes the pass.
2-9-NYG 26 (15:00 in 2nd) Holding penalty on Flowers
2-10-NYG 15 (8:26 in 2nd) Complete to Jennings for 12 yards
Flowers gets beat (kind of) he pushes Floyd to the ground as he goes by. Eli has room to step up pretty easily, but if there was other pressure, it would have been an issue.
3-10-CHI 28 (3:43 in 3rd) Incomplete, should have been intercepted.
Flowers gets pushed back and allows a pressure, but Jerry is beaten worse, and Hart doesn’t do particularly well on this play either.
1-9-CHI 9 (11:15 in 1st) Incomplete
Flowers is beat to the inside. Newhouse isn’t able to pick up the DE, the DT loops around and gets a pressure since Flowers isn’t there to pick him up. This was poor on both Flowers and Newhouse, but I think it was more on Flowers than Newhouse. I could see an argument the other way, though.
2-10-CHI 21 (7:36 in 3rd)
Flowers beaten to the outside holds Floyd around the neck, but fortunately doesn’t draw a holding penalty. If he holds on even a little longer there is probably a flag, as it was it could have (and probably should have) been called.
3-4-NYG 37 (10:24 in 4th)
Floyd dropped into coverage and Flowers is blocking Washington. He gets around him, but rather slowly and since Eli is throwing quick he doesn’t impact the play. If Eli had to hold the ball longer, he would have had to step up.
So, I didn't think he was great in pass protection, but he certainly doesn't deserve to be listed as in the top 10 worst performers across the whole league this week.
Actually, PFF itself gave him the second best grade on the Giants offense (77) just last week against Cincy. Also had a pretty good game against the Eagles the week before.
I've been a Flowers critic at times but, yeah, PFF was off the mark on this one.
Agreed.
He looks like a left tackle to me.
When will people learn to be a little patient with a 22 year old LT? Flowers has improved this season and with time he will continue to improve. People forget how raw Flowers' technique was last year with one scout even calling it a mess.
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Flowers is not a viable long term answer at LT. After this season? After 2017? His technique apparently is always going to be an issue and he's constantly looking foolish by speedy edge rushers.
When will people learn to be a little patient with a 22 year old LT? Flowers has improved this season and with time he will continue to improve. People forget how raw Flowers' technique was last year with one scout even calling it a mess.
There are some here who are calling Eli Apple a bust after 10 games
You could say that he gave up a pressure on each of the plays I posted, but not every pressure is the same. For some of those it was just a little pressure that was pretty easily avoided. Obviously you would rather not give up even those, but I don't think it's fair to expect that from such a young player.
He did struggle in the run game too. That's the part that is more frustrating to me. On some run plays he just totally dominates his man and then there are others where you can see he just gets a little sloppy and he can't use his strength because he got caught with bad technique.
and he does seem to have issues with speed rushers and
before the Draft Floyd was considered a freak coming off
the edge and there are not to many like him in the NFL .
I thought the one play he should have been called and when
he let him go he threw his hands up in the air proclaming
innocents but didn't get called .
The way the Refs let the Bears hold it was justified .
Great stuff as usual. Many thanks.
That said, I agree with you about the trend line on Flowers. I even see some Jason Peters-like attributes there. FWIW, at EF's age, Peters was competing for a spot on Buffalo's practice squad, while Jim McNally taught him to play tackle. Although I always preferred Will Beatty to David Diehl, I'm starting to appreciate the value of a more physical left tackle.
My main concern with Flowers involves timing: assuming that he does eventually fulfill the prolific potential the Giants envision, will his rookie contract already be winding down, along with Eli Manning's career?
The simple facts are this is a guy who is 22, under a new OL coach and playing pretty well in terms of the main metric...sacks given up. Of course Floyd was going to be a matchup issue for Flowers...its like a nickel back blitz everytime! Unsurprisingly though one finished the game and one didn't.
Flowers, if he finishes his trajectory, gives you something few teams have. An elite run blocker and capable pass blocker at the left tackle position. You can find good pass blockers who can't run block, although they're not easy and Will Beatty's old contract should remind us of that. You can find good run blockers who are an adventure pass protecting.
If you have that blue chip LT who can dominate the lighter pass rushers in the run game, get out in front of screens and terrify safeties and keep the QB clean it gives you a lot of options.
The other thing I'd say is watch Flowers all game long. He's picking guys up off the ground, he's the first into the end zone to congratulate guys, he's also just an imposing physical specimen. If he can just raise his consistency levels he has the ability to be the physical tone-setter for this offence.
BBB - I hear you on the rookie contract and Eli shelf-life and there's definitely an argument we should have spent $ at tackle but wouldn't you want to invest resources in an elite LT (assuming Flowers does become that) if you're going to be blooding a young QB?
Flowers, if he finishes his trajectory, gives you something few teams have. An elite run blocker and capable pass blocker at the left tackle position.
Completely disagree. He has the strength, Athletic ability, and temperament to be not a good LT, but a GREAT one... IF he solidifies his technique. It's already better but he reverts, especially against speed rushers. If his technique becomes more consistent he could be a top LT in this league very easily.
I'm seeing him flash. I think he can still be a good LT.
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He's still 22 years old, he's making progress, there have been fits and starts but he's got the tools, he's improving and he's the starting LT on a 7-3 team.
One rebuttal might be that, at roughly the same age, Marshall Newhouse was making progress too, and he was the starting LT on a 15-1 team. The 2016 Giants are 5-0 when Newhouse plays, and he's finally getting some respect for his versatility; but nobody's picketing MetLife to demand his return to the starting lineup.
That said, I agree with you about the trend line on Flowers. I even see some Jason Peters-like attributes there. FWIW, at EF's age, Peters was competing for a spot on Buffalo's practice squad, while Jim McNally taught him to play tackle. Although I always preferred Will Beatty to David Diehl, I'm starting to appreciate the value of a more physical left tackle.
My main concern with Flowers involves timing: assuming that he does eventually fulfill the prolific potential the Giants envision, will his rookie contract already be winding down, along with Eli Manning's career?
Hard to know. Development is never linear (see Landon Collins). And as a first round pick, they basically have Flowers under team control for another 3 seasons (after this).
I'll bet people are evaluating the Bears pass rush and saying that they only beat the LT in 7 of 39 plays. They have to do much better than that.
Floyd had 58 snaps, most of them matched with Flowers and all of his efforts contributed to one incomplete pass (play #4, where the whole pocket is under pressure).
Granted, Floyd should have gotten the holding call in his favor in play #6, which was the play before the Giants scored their last TD and could have changed the outcome. That is a legit concern with Flowers but doesn't mean he had a bad game.
It wasn't meant to argue that Flowers had a great game in pass protection. He didn't. He had some struggles. He obviously needs to keep getting better. It was only meant to defend him against the over the top criticism from PFF listing as one of the 10 worst players this week across the NFL. He wasn't nearly that bad. Against Green Bay, he was that bad. Here I would say he was a little below average for a starting left tackle.
He had more bad plays than what you would like to see, but all of these plays are equally bad. Several of them were less than what you want from your tackle, but relatively easy for Eli to avoid or throw before it mattered.
The purpose really was to show what his bad plays looked like so that people could make up their own minds about what they think. Speaking of which, I just realized I put the wrong quarter for a couple of the plays. So if anyone is going back and reviewing the plays for themself: the 3-10-CHI 28 was 3:43 in the 2nd and the 1-9-CHI 9 was 11:15 in the 3rd. They should be in the order they occurred in the game.
Because people here need a reason to get pissed at Reese, or to blame him for something. So...they basically want Flowers to be bad. In all seriousness.
As for moving him to RT, keep in mind even though they kicked tires on multiple LTs last offseason, a big reason they didn't sign one is very likely because they told them they'd be playing RT while EF is entrenched on the blind side.
I've never seen such a strange phenomenon on a message board where there are literally several posters who will only post comments that degrade the GM.
I've never seen such a strange phenomenon on a message board where there are literally several posters who will only post comments that degrade the GM.
It never fails...
But he is struggling with what was already a known issue for him, technique. He was so dominant for so long with bad technique that he really needs to have the muscle memory Solari is teaching pounded into him with repetition, over and over again. And even if that happens? Guess what he'll revert to when he slips? The same old bad technique. Muscle memory is very powerful. The good news is he has gotten consistently better. He is going to have issues where he slides backwards but if he keeps consistently improving he will be a great LT. He's already good, he just needs to keep improving.
2) At what position will your mistakes most likely be exposed, and
3) At what position will you regularly face the most physical player on the opposing team?
How many opposing D-lineman are saying, "Good, I get to face Flowers this week"?
How many opposing D-lineman are saying, "Flowers is only going to get worse"?