after some momentary seahorn disaster flashback twinges.....it was remarkable to see a returner with that much speed and talent run around and past the defenders, and scoring on a play that would have been good with our without that holding call....its a risk i guess they are willing to take, seems like this team is gelling to an "all in" mentality.....
at this point you put the best player back there
I know your thread wasn't all doom and gloom but you cannot coach or play scared. He has just as much of a chance at getting injured on a slant than he does on a punt return. At least with a punt return he can protect himself with a fair catch unlike going on a slant where a LB and S are trying to decapitate him.
Yes, a very good Giant suffered a severe injury returning a kick. Yes, it was his first time returning a kick.
So?
Lots of Giants have suffered severe injuries doing all kinds of things on a football field. It's football. Guys get hurt. Why do we keep coming back to this as if was football-9/11.
It's like some sort of running BBI joke, like "no jewlz, just regular" or the Saints' first round pick they owed us for Shockey, or (if you're really old school) "DID THEY ICE IT?" -- except it's not a joke. Just a bad meme that we can't seem to get rid of.
Yes, a very good Giant suffered a severe injury returning a kick. Yes, it was his first time returning a kick.
So?
Lots of Giants have suffered severe injuries doing all kinds of things on a football field. It's football. Guys get hurt. Why do we keep coming back to this as if was football-9/11.
It's like some sort of running BBI joke, like "no jewlz, just regular" or the Saints' first round pick they owed us for Shockey, or (if you're really old school) "DID THEY ICE IT?" -- except it's not a joke. Just a bad meme that we can't seem to get rid of.
This^^^
I must admit I never really ever thought about Odell returning punts but seeing him out there today was exciting!! Its another way to take advantage of his skills. I never think about the other "stars" getting hurt. I'm just hoping we dont kick to them! The Sehorn injury still lingers in many Giants fans mind.
Scary to use OBJ on punts but okay if Giants need a game changer. It would have been a game changer today.
At least you know it is. It's a game and you put your best players on the field in the best positions to succeed. You don't coach in fear of an injury. That is how you lose games. Back in the day the best players played both ways. Nobody thought anything of it.
I know what you mean. We have had guys that were able to take it to the house on any given play. OBJ is different. He just simply looks faster than everyone on the field when he even gets a glimpse of daylight. Plax was good for us...and clutch. Nicks and Cruz helped carry us in 2011. It will be very interesting to see what Beckham can do as we progress this year.
OBJ looked smooth as heck out there today returning kicks.
Take full advanatege of having him on the roster and use him.
I don't think he's a great returned, despite todays exciting return.
Without Beckham, this offense damn near collapses. That's a reality. Two (often more) players on defense have to account for Beckham on every play. Anytime that's not the case (one on one), Eli and Beckham make them pay for it. When the Giants win but Beckham gets under 60 yards and no TDs, you still need to be thankful for Beckham. If you don't understand that, go re-learn football.
Now if the Giants NEED a push in a big game (i.e. to make the playoffs, playoff game, SB), then maybe you take 'A' risk. Otherwise, let Eli and Beckham make up for poor ST's returns/gaffs ON OFFENSE.
More to the point, if I was Beckham, I'd say HELL NO to playing STs. If I had his skill set, I'm thinking HoF and possibly the greatest WR of all time. I'm sure he doesn't feel that way. I'm sure he'd relish the chance to play more. I'm just saying I wouldn't if I were him. NO that's not selfish. A SB ring and/or SB MVP would go a long way to a player's legacy and he knows that. He doesn't get there returning punts or kicks though.
There is a reason that most special teams' players are backups!
JPP is too important to risk to injury!!!
He should have been benched for recklessly returning that interception. Not too mention all those times he engaged football players with physical contact... doesn't he know he is important like Beckham and should avoid playing contact football at all costs?
Josiah31 : 8:00 pm : link : reply
We needed him back there. Had no business being a close game today.
We were up at least a TD from the 5 minute point of the first half on. The Browns really never threatened and we were happy to pin them back and force them to drive the length of the field.
That game seemed closer to be a 20 point game most of the time. Did you ever really worry the Browns would come back?
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The sad part is
Josiah31 : 8:00 pm : link : reply
We needed him back there. Had no business being a close game today.
We were up at least a TD from the 5 minute point of the first half on. The Browns really never threatened and we were happy to pin them back and force them to drive the length of the field.
That game seemed closer to be a 20 point game most of the time. Did you ever really worry the Browns would come back?
Not for the 2-1/2 minutes we were up by 14 after JPP's pick-six, and not for the 5 minutes we were up 14 to close out the game.
The other 52 minutes of the game, however, when the margin was between 0 and 8 points, I thought it hubristic to treat the game like it was in the bank.
Odell is a WR and an experienced punt returner. I don't see any correlation between the two except for the football.
So I see nothing to keep him from returning punts.
It was a closer game than I would have hoped, and was almost shocked when Eli almost threw the pick near the LOS looking into the sun.
After that I said I hope the defense just scores to give us some breathing room...and it worked.
I don't think he's a great returned, despite todays exciting return.
Oh, look - radar playing the contrarian again...
Odell is a WR and an experienced punt returner. I don't see any correlation between the two except for the football.
So I see nothing to keep him from returning punts.
Granted, I don't think I've seen the play in 20 years, but I doubt that Sehorn got hurt because of his inexperience returning kicks. I think he probably got hurt because guys tend to get hurt when they run into each other at full speed. And the NFL appears to agree, which is why they keep changing the rules to disincentivize kick and punt returners from actually returning punts and kicks, and to greater protect the ones that do try to make returns. My guess is, they have reliable data to support the argument that you're simply more likely to get injured on these types of plays.
But I digress - the point is, shit happens. All the experience in the world returning kicks/punts can't account for the chaos factor and simple brute physics. Sehorn was never the same player after he wrecked his knee. That's the cost of putting Beckham back there and being wrong about this - not simply losing him for the rest of the season, but also lowering the ceiling for the rest of his career.
So I say, use him sparingly, if at all.
McAdoo said after the game that Harris has been playing through some injuries, but after last week's game, clearly wasn't pleased with some of Harris's decisions returning kicks. He insisted today it wasn't a demotion, but it sorta looks that way.
-Most of BBI
Not because of the "curse of Sehorn" but because OBJ is just way too valuable to our particular team AND we have another guy or two that can do it.
It doesn't matter that other teams have their stars (some HOF players) returning punts. Time and circumstances are always debatable on those decisions.
Without Beckham, this offense damn near collapses. That's a reality. Two (often more) players on defense have to account for Beckham on every play. Anytime that's not the case (one on one), Eli and Beckham make them pay for it. When the Giants win but Beckham gets under 60 yards and no TDs, you still need to be thankful for Beckham. If you don't understand that, go re-learn football.
Now if the Giants NEED a push in a big game (i.e. to make the playoffs, playoff game, SB), then maybe you take 'A' risk. Otherwise, let Eli and Beckham make up for poor ST's returns/gaffs ON OFFENSE.
More to the point, if I was Beckham, I'd say HELL NO to playing STs. If I had his skill set, I'm thinking HoF and possibly the greatest WR of all time. I'm sure he doesn't feel that way. I'm sure he'd relish the chance to play more. I'm just saying I wouldn't if I were him. NO that's not selfish. A SB ring and/or SB MVP would go a long way to a player's legacy and he knows that. He doesn't get there returning punts or kicks though.
There is a reason that most special teams' players are backups!
You better send this to Mike Tomlin then. Antonio Brown has been returning punts for them for years, and that O would struggle big time without him as well.
Yep, I am on BBI...
Yep, I am on BBI...
I neither said he was a moron or a genius for doing it. The point is that he's been doing it without getting hurt, just like many other great players did in the past.
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but he is a genius for letting A. Brown return punts.
Yep, I am on BBI...
I neither said he was a moron or a genius for doing it. The point is that he's been doing it without getting hurt, just like many other great players did in the past.
Many have yes. Most don't.
Who else does Pittsburg have to return punts? If they had a decent punt returner I'd argue Antonio wouldn't be doing it. They've tried other people but none have panned out. It's really why the Giants put Beckham in there in the first place. The other guys have screwed it up. They would rather not do it. Also, pigeon picking a team that does it here or there is not evidence of success or failure for all.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Again, I'd do it here and there for a spark in a big game. Not against the Browns though.
but for the playoffs, mostly yes.
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but he is a genius for letting A. Brown return punts.
Yep, I am on BBI...
I neither said he was a moron or a genius for doing it. The point is that he's been doing it without getting hurt, just like many other great players did in the past.
Not pointed at you, apologies. Just used your post to refute the theme that b/c other coaches do it, we should.
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In comment 13237453 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but he is a genius for letting A. Brown return punts.
Yep, I am on BBI...
I neither said he was a moron or a genius for doing it. The point is that he's been doing it without getting hurt, just like many other great players did in the past.
Many have yes. Most don't.
Who else does Pittsburg have to return punts? If they had a decent punt returner I'd argue Antonio wouldn't be doing it. They've tried other people but none have panned out. It's really why the Giants put Beckham in there in the first place. The other guys have screwed it up. They would rather not do it. Also, pigeon picking a team that does it here or there is not evidence of success or failure for all.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Again, I'd do it here and there for a spark in a big game. Not against the Browns though.
In today's NFL, every game is a big game. The margin for error is very small for most teams and the difference between most teams is very small. The Giants are certainly no exception to that and should put their best returner out there until the outcome of the game is no longer in question.
First, I'd play him in a big moment or big game if necessary. Not just a big game. Second, the Browns game was neither. I hate the IF game but just imagine the outrage IF Beckham was injured against the Browns on a punt return when the Giants are in the lead by 8 points and have held the Browns to two FGs. Seriously if you had to choose your moment to put Beckham in as a punt returner, that would be on the far bottom of the list.
The fact is that Beckham can get hurt in practice, on the treadmill, trying to split a CB/S bracket knowing he's going to get absolutely smashed if the ball is thrown his way.
And the people using Sehorn as an example of why they hate the idea are really completely off base - covering and returning a punt is vastly different from kickoffs and Beckham is FAR superior to Sehorn in the athlete department when it comes to avoiding, evading and limiting contact damage.
What I find funny is - leave it to BBI to bitch, moan, complain and wring its collective hands in worry and paranoia instead of watching the potential game-changing, back-breaking awesomeness of this guy doing his thing.
The fact is that Beckham can get hurt in practice, on the treadmill, trying to split a CB/S bracket knowing he's going to get absolutely smashed if the ball is thrown his way.
And the people using Sehorn as an example of why they hate the idea are really completely off base - covering and returning a punt is vastly different from kickoffs and Beckham is FAR superior to Sehorn in the athlete department when it comes to avoiding, evading and limiting contact damage.
What I find funny is - leave it to BBI to bitch, moan, complain and wring its collective hands in worry and paranoia instead of watching the potential game-changing, back-breaking awesomeness of this guy doing his thing.
I have little problem with OBJ fielding punts in the scenario(s) you outlined. I had a big problem with Sehorn running back KOs, something he hadn't done since Hogh School(?).
at this point you put the best player back there
This.