like that called and the Flowers one called, it really does reinforce the idea that any play can have a penalty called.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
like that called and the Flowers one called, it really does reinforce the idea that any play can have a penalty called.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
I actually thought the Flowers call was correct (for once).
Reputation definitely matters along the OL though. Dallas seems to get away with a ton of holding and I thought Joe Thomas had at least one that was as bad as the Flowers one.
The non-call on the PI of Beckham was pretty bad. As was a dirty shot they took at JPP after a sack late in the game. No clue how they missed him getting speared well after the play.
the issue I have with Flowers calls is that often, he's called when his man is losing his footing. I actually saw replays where Richberg and Jerry had handfuls of jersey grabbed and our WR's had a few holds that could be called, but the one they chose to go with was the Flowers one, and it negated a huge play.
He's had several flags this year that are textbook blocks which is really frustrating to see because you have to believe it is due to some preconceived reputation - just like the crap taunting calls Odell gets that are overlooked by other players.
How they came back and showed a replay whee millen was saying "right there is where the holding was called." But the replay was the blimp view from the madden games. They werent going to show a BS call up close
the issue I have with Flowers calls is that often, he's called when his man is losing his footing. I actually saw replays where Richberg and Jerry had handfuls of jersey grabbed and our WR's had a few holds that could be called, but the one they chose to go with was the Flowers one, and it negated a huge play.
He's had several flags this year that are textbook blocks which is really frustrating to see because you have to believe it is due to some preconceived reputation - just like the crap taunting calls Odell gets that are overlooked by other players.
Agree on Flowers, I just felt the one yesterday was a legit holding penalty, not just him pancaking his man.
Had Beckham walked up to the P like that yesterday, no doubt he would've been flagged (and fined).
like that called and the Flowers one called, it really does reinforce the idea that any play can have a penalty called.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
This drives me absolutely bonkers. I can remember Strahan being held worse than the majority of the holds called on Flowers, probably 5-10 time per game for his entire career.
Flowers clearly has some kind of rep within the officials now, to the point that he's held to a higher level of scrutiny than most. Marginal call after marginal call.
You all got a good enough look on the Herzlich play to
they showed the Herz play at least two times and it sure looked like he was knocked on his ass and the blocker momentum took him down on top of him - I didn't even see Herz grab the guy.
By that standard - you can call a penalty on any player trucked where both guys fall down.
Also, Apple was called for a block in the back where he never even made a block. It was moot because of another penalty, but still.
What's most galling about that call is that there was absolutely no impact on the return whatsoever there. The Browns player was driving Herzlich to the turf - he was never, ever going to be in any position whatsoever to make a play.
the game close?? So OBJ is doing his thing looking like he was going all the way, and in that split second a ref spotted the Herzlich fall onto the ground and said to himself "i want the game to be close so let me throw a flag on that one..."
not so much...
RE: JCN...come on. The refs made specific bad calls to keep
the game close?? So OBJ is doing his thing looking like he was going all the way, and in that split second a ref spotted the Herzlich fall onto the ground and said to himself "i want the game to be close so let me throw a flag on that one..."
not so much...
Sure, unless your version of 'block in the back' includes a cornerback who pulled both hands away before making contact with the receiving team.
Just for good measure, they threw two flags on that play - and the second one was almost as ridiculous as the first.
I can't see enough to ensure Herzlich didn't pull him down
from good. I just tend to end it there without the "grassy knoll theories".
Unfortunately Herzlich and the dude were on the ground and it very well could have been due to him doing something wrong as many do on punt coverage/return teams.
But again, unless the video stays only on him...tough to say.
People can argue about officiating incompetence all they want
Last week, anyone who watched the Texans play the Raiders saw not one, but two "bad spots" on consecutive plays, one that actually went to the review booth.
In both cases, anyone with eyeballs saw that the ball was clearly marked a half yard to a yard short of the runner's progress (where the ball was when he was touched down). The announcers noticed it. Anyone watching the game noticed it. Two times, refs missed it, and once a replay review team missed it.
So either there was a lot of missing, or there was a little bit of help. At any rate, that was either gross incompetence at new levels, or someone dictating the direction the game was going to take. I do think the refs are incompetent, but they're not blind.
So calls are made based on hand placement at the time of contact (especially when players go to the ground). If the hands are outside the shoulders, it's a hold; if they are inside, it's not a hold out. Doesn't matter if there is or isn't actual holding going on. This explains the calls on Herzlich and Flowers. They had their hands outside their opponent's shoulders when they went to the ground.
But Hayden should've been called for the PI because his head not being turned around should've made it an automatic flag.
Another area where you see this kind of thing is "pushing off" on the WR. If his arm extends fully, it's a flag; if his arm is bent at the elbow, no flag. It doesn't matter if there is or isn't actual pushing off.
Gave NFL power to hire full time refs and groom them to replace "underperforming" referees. This makes current refs more prone to throw a flag IMO as is evidenced by the increasing number of penalties since CBA was signed. It is easier to justify action then it would be to try and justify inaction, thus more flags. Also makes it easier for fans to complain.
Also worth noting the big drop off in penalties after 2005 season. 2005 was when the previous CBA was signed, thus shielding the refs from being fired.
like that called and the Flowers one called, it really does reinforce the idea that any play can have a penalty called.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
I agree re: Flowers. He obviously has his down moments and has "earned" some of the flags. But, I think a decent portion of his holds are more of the variety of him mauling a guy and they just see a defender going down and assume a hold. There have been at least a few where he just drove a guy down without grabbing.
As for the Herzlich penalty, it looked awkward in real time. He was falling backward and the Browns player ran over him, basically. It could have looked like he grabbed the Browns player and pulled him down, but that isn't what happened. And watching the replay, you see he was actually falling backward before the Browns player was on him (about 3 yards away).
As for the Herzlich penalty, it looked awkward in real time. He was falling backward and the Browns player ran over him, basically. It could have looked like he grabbed the Browns player and pulled him down, but that isn't what happened. And watching the replay, you see he was actually falling backward before the Browns player was on him (about 3 yards away).
If you look at it in slow motion, you see Herzlich has his hands on the outside of the Browns player's shoulders. That's what gets the flag. It doesn't matter if he was actually pulling on him or not, having his hands outside the shoulders while they are going to the ground is an automatic flag in the eyes of the officials. I think it was a similar thing with the Flowers holding call, but I'm going off of memory on that one.
There is no way Herzlich committed an error on Special Teams
He set that up by making it look like he was going for the sideline before cutting it hard up field and everyone bit. Looked like they were standing in concrete.
OBJ needs to be returning all punts when opponents are pinned back.
like that called and the Flowers one called, it really does reinforce the idea that any play can have a penalty called.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
This is what kills me about NFL reffs, consistency. How do they call that and not call other holds? You'll see them call a ticky tack PI and then let one just as bad or worse go. If I was a player I wouldn't know how to play the game, what is a foul, what isn't, what is a catch, what isn't, etc...
I would rather wait two minutes for another review and get the call right then spend two hours after the game arguing about the bad call.
If doing this even 10 times in a game wasting 20 minutes reviewing bad calls resulted in a Giants win vs a loss, then I think it would be worth it.
I am tired of hearing people complain about the games being too long. From my perspective, then are not long enough. Our team plays only 16 games per year. We wait 6 months just to get to the first pre-season game. Why in the hell would anyone want to shorten the experience on Sunday?
They should add the additional replays for penalties. To make room for that additional time, go with the Thanksgiving time schedule. Early games start at 12:30. Later games at 4:30... done.
Link - ( New Window )
And raising #1 signs -- playing for a winless team. LOL
Thank You, appreciate that.
agree. I thought that was a shit call.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
I actually thought the Flowers call was correct (for once).
Reputation definitely matters along the OL though. Dallas seems to get away with a ton of holding and I thought Joe Thomas had at least one that was as bad as the Flowers one.
The non-call on the PI of Beckham was pretty bad. As was a dirty shot they took at JPP after a sack late in the game. No clue how they missed him getting speared well after the play.
He's had several flags this year that are textbook blocks which is really frustrating to see because you have to believe it is due to some preconceived reputation - just like the crap taunting calls Odell gets that are overlooked by other players.
He's had several flags this year that are textbook blocks which is really frustrating to see because you have to believe it is due to some preconceived reputation - just like the crap taunting calls Odell gets that are overlooked by other players.
Agree on Flowers, I just felt the one yesterday was a legit holding penalty, not just him pancaking his man.
Had Beckham walked up to the P like that yesterday, no doubt he would've been flagged (and fined).
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
This drives me absolutely bonkers. I can remember Strahan being held worse than the majority of the holds called on Flowers, probably 5-10 time per game for his entire career.
Flowers clearly has some kind of rep within the officials now, to the point that he's held to a higher level of scrutiny than most. Marginal call after marginal call.
not so sure...
And I don't recall seeing Herzlich after that play - was that the one he suffered a concussion on?
By that standard - you can call a penalty on any player trucked where both guys fall down.
Also, Apple was called for a block in the back where he never even made a block. It was moot because of another penalty, but still.
What's most galling about that call is that there was absolutely no impact on the return whatsoever there. The Browns player was driving Herzlich to the turf - he was never, ever going to be in any position whatsoever to make a play.
You win
not so much...
not so much...
Sure, unless your version of 'block in the back' includes a cornerback who pulled both hands away before making contact with the receiving team.
Just for good measure, they threw two flags on that play - and the second one was almost as ridiculous as the first.
And the conscpiracy theories need to stop, in no way was the call used to keep the game close.
So, the refs are so bad at calling rules consistently during the game, but they are great at "rigging" games?
And the conscpiracy theories need to stop, in no way was the call used to keep the game close.
So, the refs are so bad at calling rules consistently during the game, but they are great at "rigging" games?
You believe it would be difficult for these guys to rig a game? More difficult than it would be to properly officiate it?
I guess you think throwing a flag is pretty hard. They're filled with pellets, not lead.
Unfortunately Herzlich and the dude were on the ground and it very well could have been due to him doing something wrong as many do on punt coverage/return teams.
But again, unless the video stays only on him...tough to say.
In both cases, anyone with eyeballs saw that the ball was clearly marked a half yard to a yard short of the runner's progress (where the ball was when he was touched down). The announcers noticed it. Anyone watching the game noticed it. Two times, refs missed it, and once a replay review team missed it.
So either there was a lot of missing, or there was a little bit of help. At any rate, that was either gross incompetence at new levels, or someone dictating the direction the game was going to take. I do think the refs are incompetent, but they're not blind.
But Hayden should've been called for the PI because his head not being turned around should've made it an automatic flag.
Another area where you see this kind of thing is "pushing off" on the WR. If his arm extends fully, it's a flag; if his arm is bent at the elbow, no flag. It doesn't matter if there is or isn't actual pushing off.
The Giants had 9 penalties for 100 yards.
Without those penalties that game probably gets out of hand...
Also worth noting the big drop off in penalties after 2005 season. 2005 was when the previous CBA was signed, thus shielding the refs from being fired.
NFL Penalties - ( New Window )
Those 2 cuts were just unreal. Just look at how helpless those Browns defenders look flailing at him after he just broke their ankles.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
As for the Herzlich penalty, it looked awkward in real time. He was falling backward and the Browns player ran over him, basically. It could have looked like he grabbed the Browns player and pulled him down, but that isn't what happened. And watching the replay, you see he was actually falling backward before the Browns player was on him (about 3 yards away).
As for the Herzlich penalty, it looked awkward in real time. He was falling backward and the Browns player ran over him, basically. It could have looked like he grabbed the Browns player and pulled him down, but that isn't what happened. And watching the replay, you see he was actually falling backward before the Browns player was on him (about 3 yards away).
The refs clearly made a mistake...
OBJ needs to be returning all punts when opponents are pinned back.
Flowers seems to draw at least one holding penalty a game, and IU think only one of them have been egregious. Meanwhile, Vernon and JPP aren't even drawing a call a game and they are routinely mauled.
The non-PI call on Odell bothered me more. A defender, not looking back for the ball, runs into the WR before the pass gets there. It doesn't get easier a call to make than that. They apparently saw Apple do it.
This is what kills me about NFL reffs, consistency. How do they call that and not call other holds? You'll see them call a ticky tack PI and then let one just as bad or worse go. If I was a player I wouldn't know how to play the game, what is a foul, what isn't, what is a catch, what isn't, etc...
If doing this even 10 times in a game wasting 20 minutes reviewing bad calls resulted in a Giants win vs a loss, then I think it would be worth it.
I am tired of hearing people complain about the games being too long. From my perspective, then are not long enough. Our team plays only 16 games per year. We wait 6 months just to get to the first pre-season game. Why in the hell would anyone want to shorten the experience on Sunday?
They should add the additional replays for penalties. To make room for that additional time, go with the Thanksgiving time schedule. Early games start at 12:30. Later games at 4:30... done.