We are back to having the best DLine in the NFL and these guys appear to have great chemistry and high character.
I think at this point you pray JPP takes the same deal you gave Vernon - 5 years, $80M, $50.2M guaranteed. He is out-playing OV right now.
Hankins I would offer something between what Michael Brockers and Snacks got. 4 years, $40M, $20M guaranteed.
The Cowboys have that OL locked up. The Giants can do the same with the DL. Next year's age Vernon (27), Snacks (29), Hankins (25) and JPP (28) should have plenty left in the tank.
Expensive? Yes. But when your DL is dominant it allows you to "skimp" in other areas, and I'd like to see these 4 just continue to work together in the same scheme. I think these 4 having chemistry and pushing each other guards against letdowns you worry about with large contracts. We could even go up a notch with continued improvement from JPP and Vernon's hand healing.
And as much as I like Hankins they shouldn't overpay to resign him.
And pay them the same...
Let's not overreact to whipping on a couple bad teams.
The offensive line needs help desperately.
The scary thing is depth wise the Giants only have/use Thomas and Okwara - both of whom I assume are also out of a contract at year end.
I also think that perhaps a three year deal for JPP would be better and I wonder if he would take a little less money to stay in NY and help keep the defense's unit as-is.
Beckham and Richburg 2018 I believe
Cruz likely coming off the books. Have to trim some dollars off the HB position IMO.
That's a lot of cash when you add in Eli.
Not sure they all fit.
Neither had any accrued service coming into this season. They can't even be RFAs until 2019.
Odighizuwa has two more years under his rookie contract contract . Bromley has one. Kerry Wynn can also be tendered for 2017 as an RFA. The depth might be scary, but not because they can all walk.
Don't think Hankins will get what Snacks did on the open market. Probably closer to $8M per season.
Pugh is already signed for next year. While I like Pugh and think he's our best OL, you have to take his injuries into account too. Missed 2 games in 2014 and 2015 and will miss at least that many this year. If he's looking for Osemele type money (FWIW, PFF had him as their top OG before his injury), they might let him walk after next season.
Beckham and Richburg 2018 I believe
Cruz likely coming off the books. Have to trim some dollars off the HB position IMO.
That's a lot of cash when you add in Eli.
Not sure they all fit.
They'll pick up Beckham's option for 2018 which will likely be $8-9M (based off Hopkins option).
Beckham's 'open market' deal will likely hit the books as Eli is retiring (after his current deal ends).
Cruz and DRC (and others) will be coming off the books by the time we need to extend Beckham at franchise WR money.
Yeah, but even the 2007 and 2011 teams had Pierce and Boley. :-)
Quote:
The scary thing is depth wise the Giants only have/use Thomas and Okwara - both of whom I assume are also out of a contract at year end.
Neither had any accrued service coming into this season. They can't even be RFAs until 2019.
Odighizuwa has two more years under his rookie contract contract . Bromley has one. Kerry Wynn can also be tendered for 2017 as an RFA. The depth might be scary, but not because they can all walk.
Yeah I wasn't talking about them leaving - more so about their complete inability to get on the field.
Odi played what 5 snaps last game? Bromley didn't dress. Wynn played 5? 10?
Then depth is scary because they get next to no playing time IMO. The team gives a ton of snaps to the defensive line starters IMO. If one gets hurt the drop off is huge IMO judging by how the team rarely gets the depth on the field.
So going forward we have two guys who can play 10-15 snaps a game each currently until 2019, that's my worry.
That said, even if they re-sign both JPP and Hankins (IMO, unlikely), I think they'll draft at least one DL player in the first 3 rounds.
Pugh is under contract next year
The guarantee on his Year 5 option is only for injury, correct? Not saying they would rescind it - hard to imagine, considering the other problems on that line. But in theory, I think they could drop him, as long as he's cleared to play in the spring.
They'll pick up Beckham's option for 2018 which will likely be $8-9M (based off Hopkins option).
Beckham's 'open market' deal will likely hit the books as Eli is retiring (after his current deal ends).
Cruz and DRC (and others) will be coming off the books by the time we need to extend Beckham at franchise WR money.
Good call. I dismissed the option. Actually, forgot about it. That extra year could certainly make a difference cap wise.
Quote:
Pugh is already signed for next year. While I like Pugh and think he's our best OL, you have to take his injuries into account too. Missed 2 games in 2014 and 2015 and will miss at least that many this year. If he's looking for Osemele type money (FWIW, PFF had him as their top OG before his injury), they might let him walk after next season.
The guarantee on his Year 5 option is only for injury, correct? Not saying they would rescind it - hard to imagine, considering the other problems on that line. But in theory, I think they could drop him, as long as he's cleared to play in the spring.
That's correct, but unless they have serious reservations about his injuries or propensity to get injured, I don't see why they would rescind it. IMO, he was playing at a high enough level to warrant the $8.8M next year and they should have enough cap room to make other moves.
Pro Football Reference Giants Snap Counts 2016 - ( New Window )
Good call. I dismissed the option. Actually, forgot about it. That extra year could certainly make a difference cap wise.
It'll make a huge difference since 2019 is the final year of Eli's deal. So they could structure Beckham's deal to have a lower cap hit in 2019.
Not nearly as optimistic about Hankins. I expect that he will sign elsewhere for more money than the Giants are willing to shell out. And the Giants will draft a DT.
It's just hard to imagine the Giants being able to pay blue chip money to four DL in back to back years. Hankins will be the odd man out.
p.s.-- I expect both OBJ and Pugh to be signed to a long term deals this off-season. That's assuming that they are comfortable with Pugh's injury history.
The scary thing is depth wise the Giants only have/use Thomas and Okwara - both of whom I assume are also out of a contract at year end.
Okwara is signed for two more years. 3/~1.5 mill was his contract per spotrac
Okwara Contract - ( New Window )
Not nearly as optimistic about Hankins. I expect that he will sign elsewhere for more money than the Giants are willing to shell out. And the Giants will draft a DT.
It's just hard to imagine the Giants being able to pay blue chip money to four DL in back to back years. Hankins will be the odd man out.
p.s.-- I expect both OBJ and Pugh to be signed to a long term deals this off-season. That's assuming that they are comfortable with Pugh's injury history.
If you think Beckham is getting a long term deal this offseason, you're dreaming. Makes little sense for the Giants (2 years control at well below market value + franchise tag) and Beckham has little leverage. Which means Beckham would have to give them a 'significant' home town discount.
It'll be interesting to see how much Bromley plays this Sunday (if at all). He was playing ~20% of the snaps and then all of a sudden was a healthy scratch. Did they need the roster spot elsewhere and felt RT was a better option against CLE? Or just see what RT could do against CLE with extended snaps? Or has RT permanently passed Bromley?
Quote:
Hankins I would love to keep but he is good not great, I expect some team to value him for what he could develop into not what he currently is (think Cofield or Joseph) and pay him a lot.
The scary thing is depth wise the Giants only have/use Thomas and Okwara - both of whom I assume are also out of a contract at year end.
Okwara is signed for two more years. 3/~1.5 mill was his contract per spotrac Okwara Contract - ( New Window )
That contract is a steal thus far.
And what kind of production do you normally get out of an UDFA? The guy is playing pretty close to 20% of the snaps over guys like Wynn, Odi, etc... The value proposition when you hit on UDFA even if he only turns out as depth is huge IMO.
Quote:
Pretty sure that's a typical undrafted FA contract.
And what kind of production do you normally get out of an UDFA? The guy is playing pretty close to 20% of the snaps over guys like Wynn, Odi, etc... The value proposition when you hit on UDFA even if he only turns out as depth is huge IMO.
Agreed. I was exciting when he was signed and he's shown up throughout the year. I love to see him in on those third downs with DK, JPP, and OV. He's a perfect compliment. Good size and speed combo.
Quote:
If you think Beckham is getting a long term deal this offseason, you're dreaming. Makes little sense for the Giants (2 years control at well below market value + franchise tag) and Beckham has little leverage. Which means Beckham would have to give them a 'significant' home town discount.
Beckham will threaten to hold out if there is no deal. The Giants will want to make sure there is no bad blood with their biggest star. It will be a fair deal that makes him technically the highest paid WR in football (maybe even the highest paid non-QB in football), but the devil will be in the details. By that I mean that it will be a contract extension and it will be the "new money divided by additional years" that makes him the highest paid, not the average salary over the total number of years going forward.
He will hold out 2 years before his rookie deal is up?
Please explain on detail how you "know" he will threaten to hold out or are just just making up an imaginary narrative in your head?
But I'm sure he's smarting over Joseph, and he's seen how well Harrison and Hankins work together. The run D last year was awful. We got gashed right up the middle repeatedly. He should also be cheaper than JPP.
JPP plays a more important position, and has been incredible, especially against the run. But he'll be 29 soon, is missing most of his right hand, and has had back problems.
I think we'll keep one and lose one. Which one, I don't know. There's still a lot of football left this season.
Our defense is the only reason why we are in the playoff hunt so I definitely don't want to disrupt that, but I'm willing to sacrifice Hank to get a player at Tackle or Guard.
But what do I know.
Quote:
If you think Beckham is getting a long term deal this offseason, you're dreaming. Makes little sense for the Giants (2 years control at well below market value + franchise tag) and Beckham has little leverage. Which means Beckham would have to give them a 'significant' home town discount.
Beckham will threaten to hold out if there is no deal. The Giants will want to make sure there is no bad blood with their biggest star. It will be a fair deal that makes him technically the highest paid WR in football (maybe even the highest paid non-QB in football), but the devil will be in the details. By that I mean that it will be a contract extension and it will be the "new money divided by additional years" that makes him the highest paid, not the average salary over the total number of years going forward.
He can threaten (like Hopkins), but with the new CBA he has almost no leverage.
And with 2 cheap years (2017 at $3.3M cap hit, 2018 at ~$8.5M) and limitations of the CBA (can only pro-rate SBs over 5 years) it would be difficult to structure a deal so that he's the highest paid WR. Basically the Giants would have to eat into next years cap space to do so and what's the incentive for them to do that if he's still going to be paid as the best WR in football?
Our defense is the only reason why we are in the playoff hunt so I definitely don't want to disrupt that, but I'm willing to sacrifice Hank to get a player at Tackle or Guard.
But what do I know.
Agreed. The dropoff from JPP to Okwara/Owa/Wynn is also greater than the dropoff from Hankins to RT/Bromley and the top DEs are going to go faster in the draft making a replacement even harder to fill.
OL moves in the offseason will be interesting. Has Hart played well enough at RT to earn the job going forward? Do they look for a RG upgrade in FA and then just add depth in the draft?
He will hold out 2 years before his rookie deal is up?
Please explain on detail how you "know" he will threaten to hold out or are just just making up an imaginary narrative in your head?
And while everyone would love to have All Stars at each position, it's not possible.....
You have to fill your roster with cheaper players that can actually play and contribute......all stars don't allow that to happen....
That's why drafts are so important....you have to hit on those first 3 picks and hope they contribute right away....after that, anyone that makes the cut, is gravy.....
Quote:
He will hold out 2 years before his rookie deal is up?
Please explain on detail how you "know" he will threaten to hold out or are just just making up an imaginary narrative in your head?
A guy who would get a $15+M/year contract with $40+M guaranteed on the open market is going to be reluctant to risk that all playing for $1.4M in 2017. He will be eligible for a contract extension this off-season and he and his agent are going to demand it. And given that he will be coming off his 3rd Pro Bowl season in three years with the team, it will be hard for management to argue that he doesn't deserve it. In the interest of harmonious relations with their biggest superstar (or top two, if you want to argue Eli), they will get a deal done. And because they do have the leverage, it will be a fair deal, not an outrageous deal.
Who is the last player (not even a star) that signed a long term deal when they still had 2 years of team control remaining?
And this isn't like when Strahan played. The new CBA makes holdouts much more painful for players, which is why Hopkins' holdout lasted for like 1 day last year.
Quote:
He will hold out 2 years before his rookie deal is up?
Please explain on detail how you "know" he will threaten to hold out or are just just making up an imaginary narrative in your head?
A guy who would get a $15+M/year contract with $40+M guaranteed on the open market is going to be reluctant to risk that all playing for $1.4M in 2017. He will be eligible for a contract extension this off-season and he and his agent are going to demand it. And given that he will be coming off his 3rd Pro Bowl season in three years with the team, it will be hard for management to argue that he doesn't deserve it. In the interest of harmonious relations with their biggest superstar (or top two, if you want to argue Eli), they will get a deal done. And because they do have the leverage, it will be a fair deal, not an outrageous deal.
An entire narrative that you have entirely created in your mind
All speculation...... nothing more
Please list all the other players in the NFL who have held our with 2 years remaining on their rookie contract?
Please stop....you are making yourself look foolish
To be honest until the game against the Browns I rarely heard Hankins' name called in games. For the season, Bromley has 11 tackles and 1 sack compared to Hankins 33 tackles and 3 sacks despite the fact that Hankins have like a 400 snap count advantage.
Don't think Hankins will get what Snacks did on the open market. Probably closer to $8M per season.
Pugh is already signed for next year. While I like Pugh and think he's our best OL, you have to take his injuries into account too. Missed 2 games in 2014 and 2015 and will miss at least that many this year. If he's looking for Osemele type money (FWIW, PFF had him as their top OG before his injury), they might let him walk after next season.
His cap number in 2017 is close to $9m. If Giants want to keep him, this is the time to do it, IMO. Having not played a full season for 3 years, they might get him at a discount.
They could structure a performance based contract, based on games played.
I like Hankins a lot, I'm sure the Giants do as well, and he will get an offer, but if it comes down to it, JPP is a special athlete. Hankins is good, but he will be easier to replace. The Giants will always choose the DE.
I expect Pugh to play out his contract.
If in the rest of the games, he looks like he did against Cleveland, fine. Hell, if he averages ONE sack per game for the rest of the season, FINE. But until Cleveland, JPP had 4 sacks in 10 games -- one sack every 2.5 games. To put that in perspective, Robert Ayers had 9.5 in 12 games on last year's shit defense, and he's in Denver now. Of course JPP IS a lot better than Ayers, but unless there are a lot more games like Cleveland, he's not going to be able to point to a great statistical year when trying to justify top dollar.
As for OBJ, I expect he'll have to wait his turn.
Quote:
In comment 13239819 phillygiant said:
Quote:
He will hold out 2 years before his rookie deal is up?
Please explain on detail how you "know" he will threaten to hold out or are just just making up an imaginary narrative in your head?
A guy who would get a $15+M/year contract with $40+M guaranteed on the open market is going to be reluctant to risk that all playing for $1.4M in 2017. He will be eligible for a contract extension this off-season and he and his agent are going to demand it. And given that he will be coming off his 3rd Pro Bowl season in three years with the team, it will be hard for management to argue that he doesn't deserve it. In the interest of harmonious relations with their biggest superstar (or top two, if you want to argue Eli), they will get a deal done. And because they do have the leverage, it will be a fair deal, not an outrageous deal.
Who is the last player (not even a star) that signed a long term deal when they still had 2 years of team control remaining?
And this isn't like when Strahan played. The new CBA makes holdouts much more painful for players, which is why Hopkins' holdout lasted for like 1 day last year.
I may be wrong but didn't the Giants do this with Osi? I think another player did it too (but am even more unsure of that one). But I believe Osi ended up hating it and actually having a problem with Giants management over it. Am I remembering wrong?
The Giants may be interested in doing that but why would Beckham? Contracts are still going up. He continues to play at the high level he's been playing at and he's going to get paid when it's time. As much as the Giants may offer him now, he can make more in a year or two. Probably a lot more. Again, if I remember correctly, when Osi signed the deal he was the highest paid DE but by the time a few seasons passed he was a bargain.
We're still reeling from the semi fiasco of letting L Jo go, so I can see them ponying up to keep Hankins.
JPP is going to get big bucks. They have absolutely no one on the team to replace him. They know they suck without a line. I see them paying him what he wants.
I'd rather see the dollars go to JPP and/or Hankins than to Pugh. The OL sucks with Pugh (not saying he sucks, just that he isn't making it better all by himself), so why overpay on OL, when you can overpay for a DL that is pretty good? there's more of a hole losing a good DE than losing a guard who hasn't been exasperatingly missed on the same scale we missed JPP last year.