We give the Wilpons, they ponied up this time and got the job done quickly. Have to give props where they are due. Nice job. Now lets add another bullpen arm and we are ready to rock.
We give the Wilpons, they ponied up this time and got the job done quickly. Have to give props where they are due. Nice job. Now lets add another bullpen arm and we are ready to rock.
been years in a row of this. Can't give away guys now. Bruce is a bargain at this point. They should get superb return
Doesn't change my dislike but impressive to see them not lose their best player over 1.5 million a year or something crazy. 4 years is a perfect range of contract for cespedes too
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
Its exciting to think about what the next move might be and Im sure there will more be but off season over as far as Im concerned. Mission accomplished.
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Its exciting to think about what the next move might be and Im sure there will more be but off season over as far as Im concerned. Mission accomplished.
Bullpen absolutely is a major priority. Right now it's down a likely suspended Familia and one of their best arms (Blevins).
RE: RE: RE: Upgrading catcher wont be easy and TDA looks like a bust.
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Her exact words were the Mets felt 2.2 million was too much for a backup catcher.
RE: This was the most important move.. but there's still work to do.
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Her exact words were the Mets felt 2.2 million was too much for a backup catcher.
Cool. I've heard differently from people also with connections. Just sharing.
" Rivera is in his third year of arbitration eligibility and expected to make over $2 million next season. The Mets would like him back, but that is a little rich for a back-up catcher. "
Is 2.2 million too much for somebody not expected to make the roster? I would say yes. Depends on what we were referring to so everyone could be right.
was fantastic in 2016. They need to add to the pen. I'd love to take a shot at landing someone like Nate Jones (I'd give up a good prospect for him), or Brach with the Orioles using Bruce or Granderson as part of a deal. None of this Matt Albers garbage. Target bat missing RP not "he was good 4 years ago" types like Jim Henderson.
If they trade Lagares + Bruce, I hope they bring back Ruggiano
Is 2.2 million too much for somebody not expected to make the roster? I would say yes. Depends on what we were referring to so everyone could be right.
My only point is they would 100% give Welington Castillo 2.2 million if he were a FA, so in that sense "yes" he'd be a major upgrade. Please pass on Wieters unless his market totally bottoms out.
RE: If they trade Lagares + Bruce, I hope they bring back Ruggiano
Nimmo is on the big league roster (a big if) they need to add some organizational OF's anyway. As of right now they have "lost" Campbell and Roger Bernadina.
...for saying Cespedes wanted to be here because he opted out. Which.. was a no-brainer for him. I don't believe for a second that not one team in baseball would have been willing to go 5 years on him if given the chance.
Is it Salary....lack of need at the position?
I think he will rake next year something closer to the way he ended the year rather than how he played when he first arrived.
Is it Salary....lack of need at the position?
I think he will rake next year something closer to the way he ended the year rather than how he played when he first arrived.
It would be pretty shocking if both Granderson and Bruce return and Sandy left Bruce out of his off-season comments on the 2017 starting OF which left some to guess he's a goner. It's not impossible Bruce returns but unlikely. Find it very hard to believe they pay Cespedes huge bucks + Bruce 13.5 + Granderson 15 + Lagares 4.5 + Conforto.
Jay Bruce's days with the Mets may just have gotten shorter with Yoenis Cespedes returning. It's entirely foreseeable for the Mets now to trade Bruce, who will earn $13 million next season.
like the only realistic way Bruce is back is if a) They find the trade market to be absolutely awful for him. I'm not expecting much for him but they should get some value or b) Teams show FAR more interest in Granderson to the point they go that direction. I'd guess they claim Bruce is staying and then deal him. I'd say 70% chance he's a goner.
and I wouldn't be shocked if Sandy gets back a return better than what he gave up in the first place. This is awesome news, the offseason is now at least 95% successful.
Congrats Met fans. Any chance they look at Wieters?
Hope not. One of the worst pitch framers in baseball. Extremely overrated. If his market tables then sure. 2 years 24 or something I'm in but anything more than say 3 for 30ish will likely be a disaster. He's not a good player and he's in decline.
like the only realistic way Bruce is back is if a) They find the trade market to be absolutely awful for him. I'm not expecting much for him but they should get some value or b) Teams show FAR more interest in Granderson to the point they go that direction. I'd guess they claim Bruce is staying and then deal him. I'd say 70% chance he's a goner.
Granderson would be far more attractive for one year than Bruce even though he's 6 years older. Check out their last 3 years Bruce 0.2 war, granderson 8.9. So i can see teams asking for him instead.
I think the Mets are stealthily looking at potential
catcher options to team with TDA via trade. They dont want to put all their eggs in his basket again. I expect a catcher move, a Bruce trade, and a reliever (possibly two if Blevins walks).
OF now consists of Travis Taijeron, Victor Cruzado and Ty Kelly as of right now so they likely look to add at least 1 more veteran OF type (Kelly Johnson or someone like him) and Nimmo to AAA.
and I wouldn't be shocked if Sandy gets back a return better than what he gave up in the first place. This is awesome news, the offseason is now at least 95% successful.
like the only realistic way Bruce is back is if a) They find the trade market to be absolutely awful for him. I'm not expecting much for him but they should get some value or b) Teams show FAR more interest in Granderson to the point they go that direction. I'd guess they claim Bruce is staying and then deal him. I'd say 70% chance he's a goner.
Granderson would be far more attractive for one year than Bruce even though he's 6 years older. Check out their last 3 years Bruce 0.2 war, granderson 8.9. So i can see teams asking for him instead.
I get the impression the Mets are "done" with Bruce so I think the return on granderson would have to be significantly higher. Granderson can fake it in CF, is A++++ off the field (I'm not saying Bruce is a jerk or something just Granderson is unusual) and Granderson can hit leadoff etc. I could be totally off but my impression is Bruce is a goner.
a trade in place for Bruce. No way he would risk carrying both salaries. He is too smart to get caught like that. As bad as Bruce was for three months with the Mets, he is a power bat from the left side with proven RBI numbers. This is not like trying to deal Jason Bay.
Crazy....
ZGiants98 : 3:20 pm : link : reply
Cespedes will average making 162K a game over the next 4 years. lol More than most of us will make in a year he will make 162 times over.
a trade in place for Bruce. No way he would risk carrying both salaries. He is too smart to get caught like that. As bad as Bruce was for three months with the Mets, he is a power bat from the left side with proven RBI numbers. This is not like trying to deal Jason Bay.
Agree. Bruce prob just isn't suited for NY. He shouldn't be difficult to move.
is a good fit for Bruce if they lose Trumbo. Houston is looking for more offense, Toronto has shown previous interest (though they were only offering Michael Saunders at the deadline), the Yankees conceivably could be a fit. Might as well wait on Bruce. The FA market is awful with only Fowler, Trumbo, Desmond, Bautista, Gomez, Saunders as your "best" so the Mets likely wait this out a bit.
I expect Bruce to go to 1 of the teams that loses on Trumbo
Granderson actually played CF really well down the stretch by both the metrics and eyeball test last year. Maybe Conforto gets a little burn there and obviously Lagares starts against lefties but to me the OF works fine for a year (with Nimmo also in the wings) with that setup. Bruce could never play CF and forcing Conforto there permanently with only a handful of games there in his career seems stupid at least at this point.
Trade Bruce. Power is still at a premium. He will have suitors.
Granderson actually played CF really well down the stretch by both the metrics and eyeball test last year. Maybe Conforto gets a little burn there and obviously Lagares starts against lefties but to me the OF works fine for a year (with Nimmo also in the wings) with that setup. Bruce could never play CF and forcing Conforto there permanently with only a handful of games there in his career seems stupid at least at this point.
Trade Bruce. Power is still at a premium. He will have suitors.
Makes $13 mil for a power bat, still 29. Def a market for him.
I still like the idea of adding Suzuki for a year on the cheap
who always seem to look for cheap power. I wonder if they'd trade Vogt or Doolittle for Bruce. I could see them having interest in Robles and Nimmo too maybe in a bigger package.
who always seem to look for cheap power. I wonder if they'd trade Vogt or Doolittle for Bruce. I could see them having interest in Robles and Nimmo too maybe in a bigger package.
Vogt is absolutely awful at framing, for a team built on pitching I doubt the Mets would even make the call.
But playing Granderson in RF again would almost be criminal. He can play CF at least decently. He is horrid in RF, has no arm, and his metrics went to hell there last year. lol. They started skyrocketing as soon as he was moved.
But playing Granderson in RF again would almost be criminal. He can play CF at least decently. He is horrid in RF, has no arm, and his metrics went to hell there last year. lol. They started skyrocketing as soon as he was moved.
Granderson even said himself he was surprised how well he played in CF and how his body responded. He has renewed confidence that he can more than adequately handle the position.
I'm still pissed they came so close to getting Lucroy
5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
But playing Granderson in RF again would almost be criminal. He can play CF at least decently. He is horrid in RF, has no arm, and his metrics went to hell there last year. lol. They started skyrocketing as soon as he was moved.
Granderson even said himself he was surprised how well he played in CF and how his body responded. He has renewed confidence that he can more than adequately handle the position.
I think it will shake out that way whether the Mets are planning it now or not. Conforto doesn't seem like a CF to me so even if they try it I bet it will be back to Grandy/Lagares by May and Im fine with it.
Granderson could platoon with Lagares in CF too.It would keep him
and missed out. He would have been such a perfect fit for this team.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
RE: Granderson could platoon with Lagares in CF too.It would keep him
Yup that's what I would do. Spell him with Nimmo/Conforto once in a while. Remove him in the 7th for Lagares late in games...You can probably work it out to where he got plenty of rest.
5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
RE: RE: I'm still pissed they came so close to getting Lucroy
and missed out. He would have been such a perfect fit for this team.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
Wolters is very interesting, and strategically I agree re: the Cervelli comp, just tough to trust young catchers (as we've learned with TdA and Plawecki).
5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
Throwing well is extremely overrated when it comes to catchers. The Mets SP are terrible at holding runners on. Unless they do that better teams will run on them anyway. Vogt wasn't "okay" at framing, he was absolutely awful. Framing is far, far more important. As for TDA being good at framing, what does one thing have to do with the other? If TDA hit then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Complaints about his throwing are directly tied to his lack of offense.
RE: RE: RE: I'm still pissed they came so close to getting Lucroy
and missed out. He would have been such a perfect fit for this team.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
Wolters is very interesting, and strategically I agree re: the Cervelli comp, just tough to trust young catchers (as we've learned with TdA and Plawecki).
I just specifically like Wolters because his pitch framing grades near elite, he's a very athletic kid and is "new" to catching so to be so good at this already means he MIGHT be something pretty special back there defensively (and the Rockies already have Tom Murphy). Bruce to Colorado may be a fit as well (1b).
5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
Throwing well is extremely overrated when it comes to catchers. The Mets SP are terrible at holding runners on. Unless they do that better teams will run on them anyway. Vogt wasn't "okay" at framing, he was absolutely awful. Framing is far, far more important. As for TDA being good at framing, what does one thing have to do with the other? If TDA hit then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Complaints about his throwing are directly tied to his lack of offense.
totally serious, I think the Mets should bring in someone known for being great at holding runners on and hold a mini-camp with the pitchers. Ideally a RHP because it's likely tough to compare a LH and RH pick offf move.
velocity was down so buyer beware but is that an injury/decline thing or mechanical? The Mets should call all "bad" or mediocre teams with relievers. Admit my obsession with Nate Jones but there are quite a few guys to look at.
whats the word on Wright? Is he playing next season? What should we expect?
He's playing but Sandy admitted basically it's "who knows?" in terms of how much or how well. Not putting words in Sandy's mouth but my guess is deep down he'd prefer Wright retires.
Tell Wright to grab a 1st baseman glove and let him and Duda platoon or battle it out. Chances are one or both will be injured, but I am not putting Reyes on the bench. He is too valuable at the top of the order.
Marc Carig of Newsday hears "it's possible" Curtis Granderson gets moved.
Jay Bruce feels like the Mets' most obvious trade chip following the re-signing of Yoenis Cespedes, but the team will also apparently shop Granderson (and his $15 million salary for 2017). Granderson is coming off a year in which he slugged 30 home runs and played in 150 games, but he does turn 36 years old next March.
Source: Marc Carig on TwitterNov 29 - 4:12 PM
Tell Wright to grab a 1st baseman glove and let him and Duda platoon or battle it out. Chances are one or both will be injured, but I am not putting Reyes on the bench. He is too valuable at the top of the order.
Team insiders told Rubin they felt 1b would be MORE stress on his body, not less.
At 1B. Flores murders lefties. Match made in heaven. Wrights really just a spare part unless he miraculously heals and comes back. Reyes isn't going to be a full time bench player.
I am not saving a spot for him. He is not that good of a player anymore, even if healthy. Reyes is a far superior player at this point and makes $700k. Hopefully he does the right thing by the team and retires with that albatross of a contract.
Walker being back is a bit of a surprise. We almost have too many pieces right now. Nimmo, Cheech, Rivera and others like Lugo and Gsellman might be heading back to Vegas. Sure there's some tinkering left but man... Good times.
I am not saving a spot for him. He is not that good of a player anymore, even if healthy. Reyes is a far superior player at this point and makes $700k. Hopefully he does the right thing by the team and retires with that albatross of a contract.
Not looking to argue but the numbers don't support that. Wright was still productive offensively when healthy. I don't think anyone knows how he will react to this neck surgery including Wright. All we can do is wait and see. I maintain he will retire if he sucks and the Mets and him will work something out. Or maybe the fixed neck helps him? I doubt it but who knows?
But at this stage TDA hasn't proven enough to know for sure he just needs a good backup - there's a greater possibility of missing extended time with him than any player other than Wright and after last year there's risk that even healthy he may not be a productive starter. Vogt has shortcomings I'm sure, but he's been productive vs. righties and his contract is cheap enough that it's not prohibitive to have him on the bench if TDA does play well. Rolling the dice on a diamond in the rough would be fine but there is a very real possibility that whoever our backup is getting pressed into a starting role at some point.
issue with taking a shot on Vogt is Billy Beane doesn't give away cheap talent too often so Vogt likely costs you a guy like Dom Smith. You aren't getting Vogt for some C list prospects. What is in it for the A's? They control him through 2019.
for TDA but must get a decent back-up, even what Dan's suggested is fine.
Yeah we just need better insurance this time around. I'd prefer a vet like Suzuki but I'm not too picky. TDA should still get 60% of the atbats IMO if healthy.
who has only play more than 75 games once in 4 years. When is "potential" gone? With Cespedes in the fold, it's more important to get a great defensive catcher. Austin Romine would be perfect, but no way would the Yanks trade him now that McCann is gone.
issue with taking a shot on Vogt is Billy Beane doesn't give away cheap talent too often so Vogt likely costs you a guy like Dom Smith. You aren't getting Vogt for some C list prospects. What is in it for the A's? They control him through 2019.
Yup. Main reason I'm not interested. It's a buyers market for catchers and Vogt is an "all star". Bean will be looking to cash in IMO.
issue with taking a shot on Vogt is Billy Beane doesn't give away cheap talent too often so Vogt likely costs you a guy like Dom Smith. You aren't getting Vogt for some C list prospects. What is in it for the A's? They control him through 2019.
If that's the price then it's an obvious no way since we wouldn't even pay that price for Lucroy who is 3x the player Vogt is. My point on Vogt was as a potential interesting piece if Beane were to have interest in the Jay Bruce sweeps. A couple years ago he dealt for Zobrist with 1 year, sometimes he rolls the dice on all stars whose value is lower than normal.
RE: Dunno is going to be 28 in FEB. He's a .245 lifetime hitter
who has only play more than 75 games once in 4 years. When is "potential" gone? With Cespedes in the fold, it's more important to get a great defensive catcher. Austin Romine would be perfect, but no way would the Yanks trade him now that McCann is gone.
Potential isn't gone when he was the second best hitting catcher in baseball as recently as 2015. We've already seen what a "on" TDA looks like.
issue with taking a shot on Vogt is Billy Beane doesn't give away cheap talent too often so Vogt likely costs you a guy like Dom Smith. You aren't getting Vogt for some C list prospects. What is in it for the A's? They control him through 2019.
If that's the price then it's an obvious no way since we wouldn't even pay that price for Lucroy who is 3x the player Vogt is. My point on Vogt was as a potential interesting piece if Beane were to have interest in the Jay Bruce sweeps. A couple years ago he dealt for Zobrist with 1 year, sometimes he rolls the dice on all stars whose value is lower than normal.
The A's won 69 games last year. I don't see any reasonable narrative where they decide Jay Bruce for 1 year is someone they value at the expense of Vogt. Bruce for Vogt is a no-brainer... in the Mets favor. The A's are a bad team.
After finally being correctly placed in AAA for an extended stint actually started to show some life late. He should have never been rushed through there IMO in the first place. He might find himself back in the mix in 2017. Where's Shecky? Lol.
Hate his idea here. Lol. McCutchen is probably worse defensively in CF than Granderson at this point.
I wouldn't have a party Conforto for Hamilton but there IS something intriguing about adding Billy Hamilton to this team. I could envision him being a monster at the top of the lineup. He's flawed for sure but he can also be a weapon.
but a 1 for 1 for McCutchen would be something you have to consider. I'd probably pass because I'm comfortable with Conforto everyday in RF with Grandy + Lagares splitting time in CF. That's a very solid all around OF, though I wonder what it would cost to have a Cespedes - McCutchen - Conforto OF.
Hate his idea here. Lol. McCutchen is probably worse defensively in CF than Granderson at this point.
I wouldn't have a party Conforto for Hamilton but there IS something intriguing about adding Billy Hamilton to this team. I could envision him being a monster at the top of the lineup. He's flawed for sure but he can also be a weapon.
I'd love to add some real speed. Not sure if I'd love it for Conforto. I'd have to think on that. Lol.
this! The offseason is already not a disaster. Let's add as much as we can to the pen, and maybe add another C and go to war.
Hopefully the Mets can get rid of Bruce without having to eat much money. It'll be a tough sell because he hasn't hit 1 WAR in a while and makes $14M (1 WAR goes for $7.5M-$8M now), but maybe Sandy works some magic and we actually get something in return.
In Hamiltons last 47 games, he has batted .286 with a .360 on-base percentage, with 32 runs scored and 36 stolen bases (in 40 attempts). His on-base against right-handed pitchers jumped from .276 to .340. Hamilton ranked seventh among all outfielders in Defensive Runs Saved. He led all major leaguers -- by far -- in Fangraphs baserunning efficiency metric.
For a big-market team with payroll and resource flexibility, Hamilton could be an incredible and devastating weapon, because of his once-in-a-generation baserunning skills. He could be used as a starter on some days.
But on other days -- depending on the matchups -- he could be used offensively in the same way that a closer is used to impact games, in being placed in high-leverage situations as a pinch-runner. Nobody is better at stealing bases. Nobody is better at taking the next 90 feet. The Royals demonstrated the potency of a dangerous baserunner over the last couple of years. Link - ( New Window )
looks like a huge bounceback candidate. 1 for 1 for Conforto is something i would probably do. Might have to keep Lagares if Cutch's defense is truly down.
Some burn at CF again at some point. They may not prefer it now but the Mets do crazy things with players who have little to no experience at a position (see Conforto). I could see him being worked around and settle there in 2018 after Granderson leaves. Obviously thinking way out and assuming Nimmo ends up legit.
I'd be interested but not for Conforto. Some package of Lagares, Gselleman, Cecchini, Rivera, ok - but can't give up a potential middle of the order cornerstone.
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
but this is a huge move for them. Had they lost him they would be lucky to win a wildcard spot but if at least two out of Thor, Degrom, and Harvey can stay relatively healthy then they are a legit contender.
This puts pressure on Washington to make a bold move. I expect to see them linked to Chapman or Jensen along with a possible trade for Archer or Gray.
deal looks bad because he went from 120 -> 72 wRC in one year, not because of his corner OF defense.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
When Atlanta traded him to the Cards I was hoping that they would re-sign him in free agency in a deal for like 6 years 90 million. I am very thankful that they didn't because they were lucky to be saved by San Diego for the abomination that is Melvin Upton's contract but they wouldn't get saved twice.
I'm not advocating a butcher in LF, RF, or 1B but these are offensive positions IMO and assuming a guy can handle the position half way decent they should be graded on their offense. Just how I look at it.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
RE: RE: RE: The only issue I have with Bruce and his WAR
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
I see what you're saying, but maybe look at it this way.... It's not just the egregious errors though. It's not getting to a ball that other OFs would get to, or being slow and letting another runner take another base. An extra 7-8 outs and 10 extra bases given up over the course of a season might add up to 0.5 WAR. We might watch the games and not "blame" him for some of the balls that other OFs would get to, but it adds up.
Take a look at how sick Thor's metrics were last year, but also see how he underperformed them with some traditional stats (i think his baa against was really out of whack). Obviously, not mostly Bruce's fault but we can do better out there. I'd much rather keep Granderson and get rid of Bruce since we're trying to win it all next year and he's managed to (despite me expectations to be honest) remain at least OK out there.
RE: RE: The only issue I have with Bruce and his WAR
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
Yeah and Bruce would have hundreds and hundreds of putouts. How many huge mistakes? 5? 10? He has a decent arm. Probably has zero range but how far off is he from the middle guys? Anyways. All good.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
In fairness, Pollock is coming off an entire missed season due to injury and Swanson wasn't quite as well thought of as he is now... more importantly Arizona has a new GM so old asking prices aren't as important as what Mike Hazen might think of Conforto etc.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
Still only played 12 games last season, that's gotta count for something no?
Stewart might be the worst GM in recent memory. Not saying Pollock would be cheap but I'd certainly make a call to Arizona. Pollock is dynamic but about to turn 29, a bad team like Arizona might look to get younger, cheaper, more years of control.
Stewart might be the worst GM in recent memory. Not saying Pollock would be cheap but I'd certainly make a call to Arizona. Pollock is dynamic but about to turn 29, a bad team like Arizona might look to get younger, cheaper, more years of control.
Pollock and McCutchen would be the 2 guys I'd be aggressively trying to "buy low". Conforto/Rosario might be the deal breakers in either case but maybe we get lucky and 1 of those teams is intrigued by a package including Gsellman/Rivera/Cecchini/Nimmo/Smith/Dunn types.
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Cotillo says Blue Jays are reportedly "making a push" to acquire Bruce (again).
The Mets were reportedly high on TJ Zeuch before the draft so he might be one to watch (not sure Toronto would give him up) but he was 3-4 starter upside. No Bichette might be a nice get as well. On the Jays actual roster there isn't much in terms or realistic/interesting as far as I can tell
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
Disagree because starting Conforto on the bench is detrimental for his development. He literally tore Vegas a new asshole of the likes Ive never seen after being demoted there last year. We cant send him there again. He needs to start and start every day if he's going to be the guy we are expected to build around going forward. Even at his worst last year, he was still about a league average bat that isn't really all that far off from Bruce anyway. Conforto will be the better player in 2017. We still have guys like Nimmo likely in Vegas that also need to play every day if we get hit by some injuries.
Nimmo is essentially my 5th OF even though I likely send him to Vegas to start. Somebody like Ty Kelly can be on the ML roster as the 5th guy for pinch hitting, ect. until and an injury hits... than Nimmo leapfrogs him and is on the shuttle bus.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
came into 2016 a consensus top 50 prospect in baseball. His season wasn't very good and he's likely a good 4th OF but a guy like that and a lower level lottery ticket wouldn't be a bad haul. Maybe someone like Maese, Perdomo or Palacios (BK kid)
Nimmo is essentially my 5th OF even though I likely send him to Vegas to start. Somebody like Ty Kelly can be on the ML roster as the 5th guy for pinch hitting, ect. until and an injury hits... than Nimmo leapfrogs him and is on the shuttle bus.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
I'm not sure Ty Kelly lasts much longer on the 40 man roster.
Conforto can't start the season on the bench, especially for the likes of Jay Bruce. While Lagares will likely be the 4th OF to start the season, Nimmo will hopefully take that role before the end of the season (although it might be hard because he's an LH). I really liked what I saw from him in limited ABs last year.
If Reyes is healthier and the starter and Wright is on the bench it's still the same difference. He needs a spot. Reyes says he's already preparing to be a super sub so I just listed it that way for now.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
If Reyes is healthier and the starter and Wright is on the bench it's still the same difference. He needs a spot. Reyes says he's already preparing to be a super sub so I just listed it that way for now.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Kelly was actually pretty impressive but the issue is they likely are going to add more FA's/players via trade so a guy like Kelly is at risk. AAA OF is going to need some bodies one way or another however.
Worst case scenario everyone is healthy and he has to be the 5th OF (in name only) over a Ty Kelly to start. As soon as Wright or others go down, we'll need him.
sure if it was mentioned on here but part of Cespedes deal is that he will play exclusively LF unless it's a fill-in situation so for now gotta figures they hold onto Lagares.
sure if it was mentioned on here but part of Cespedes deal is that he will play exclusively LF unless it's a fill-in situation so for now gotta figures they hold onto Lagares.
Yup. I think a lot of people still dont realize that. At least on other sites.
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Yankees, Red Sox, Astros and Blue Jays remain the four most active clubs on Carlos Beltran, source tells SB Nation.
Rookie maximums for at-bats (130), games pitched (30) or innings (50) in the major leagues"
If the 2 leaders are within 5% of each other, or the leader has less than 35% there will be a run-off between the top 2.
Lugo- ineligible
Montero-ineligible
*Executive Decision: Tebow is ineligible until post top 20 unless someone can make a valid (non-comedy) argument otherwise.
** Made a special decision to skip to #2 early but all other polls will be 24 hours even in the appearance of a potential blowout. If people continue to vote in poll #1 I will add those votes (change the % should it change)
1) German "Amed" Rosario (SS) 27/29 (93%)
2) Dominic Smith (1B) 10/27 (37%) Run-off vs. Justin Dunn (14/24-58%)
3) Justin Dunn (RHP) 14/28 (50%)
4) Robert Gsellman (RHP) 14/26 (54%)
5) Thomas Szapucki (LHP) 16/29 (55%)
6) Desmond "Dez" Lindsay (OF) 16/26 (62%)
7) Brandon Nimmo (OF) 15/28-54%
8) Gavin Cecchini (SS) 14/29-48%
9) Andres Gimenez (SS) 15/21-71%
10) TJ Rivera (Util) 10/25-40%
11) Tomas Nido (C) 7/27-26%
12) Marcos Molina (SP) 6/27-22%, Run-off with Becerra and Alonso 10/25- 40%
13) Peter Alonso (1B) 10/21-48%
14) Wuilmer Becerra (OF) 16/24-67%
15) Gabriel Ynoa (RHP) 9/26-35%, Runoff with Evans 11/14- 79%
16) Merandy Gonzalez (RHP) 6/23-26%, Runoff with Carpio 12/20-60%
17) Anthony Kay (LHP) 8/23-35%, runoff with Carpio 10/19-53%
18) Luis Carpio (SS) 10/23- 43%
19) Josh Smoker (LHP) 13/21-62%
20) Ali Sanchez (C) 5/16-31%, runoff with 11/18-58%
21) Phil Evans (Util) 13/22-59%
22) PJ Conlon (LHP) 12/20-60%
23) Ricky Knapp 5/24-21%, Runoff with Harol Gonzalez 11/20-55%
24) Chris Flexen 3/17-18%, runoff with Harol Gonzalez 7/11-64%
25) Harol Gonzalez 8/16-50%
26) Ricardo Cespedes 3/15-20%, run-off with Simon 8/15-53%
27) Jake Simon (LHP) 5/14-36%
28) Nabil Crismatt (RHP) 3/15-20%, runoff with Church 13/18-72%
29) Kevin McGowan (RHP) 7/19-37%
30) Andrew Church (RHP) 5/22-23%, runoff with Oswalt/Planck 43%
31) Corey Oswalt (RHP) 4/18-22%, runoff with Tiberi 7/50-50%, advances due to previous poll vote count
32) Paul Sewald (RHP) 4/17-24%, runoff with Tiberi 8/15-53%
33) Blake Tiberi (3B) 2/13-15%, Runoff with Thompson 7/12- 58%
34) Cameron Planck (RHP) 6/14-43%
35) Gregory Guerrero (SS) 6/14-43%
then I want Bruce traded too and we better be in on Dexter Fowler. Only way the team would make sense going forward.
This may be the most I've ever agreed with you on a topic lol.
Trading Granderson would really surprise me given the fact he's basically a team spokesman. Add in the fact that trading Granderson means they feel comfortable with Lagares/Conforto in CF with Nimmo being your "insurance"? 1 insanely injury prone "okay" player, one questionable glove in CF and an injury prone guy we don't know much about? That said I'd trade them both if the return were enough. If it were some grand plan for Fowler it would make more sense.
am big on Adam Rubin but I think there is a very real chance they are floating they are exploring Grandy/Conforto as to not make it seem like they will give Bruce away for a song.
Let's trade Rosario, Smith, Gsellman, and Conforto for Trout. We can then trade Bruce and Granderson for prospects to help replenish the farm. I know it's a pie in the sky type scenario but would love to see Sandy do something uncharacteristically aggressive with Trout or possibly golds most.
The prices offered for Bruce will be absurdly low. T the point he may not be worth moving.
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
Let's trade Rosario, Smith, Gsellman, and Conforto for Trout. We can then trade Bruce and Granderson for prospects to help replenish the farm. I know it's a pie in the sky type scenario but would love to see Sandy do something uncharacteristically aggressive with Trout or possibly golds most.
The prices offered for Bruce will be absurdly low. T the point he may not be worth moving.
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
100% not an anti-Sandy thing at all but I have a feeling we will be underwhelmed when it comes to a Bruce return. As I noted previously his market wasn't even all that hot when he was putting up big offensive numbers with teams in a pennant race. I have a feeling some are "overrating" 30 homers. I'd love to be wrong but from everything I've read/heard from people I respect the opinion of the Mets will likely take a bit of a loss on a Bruce trade unless it's a salary swap type of move.
The prices offered for Bruce will be absurdly low. T the point he may not be worth moving.
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
If the prices for Bruce stink right now, why would anyone give up a first rounder to sign him next year? I havn't seen a reason to assume he's going to be any better in 2017 now that he's older.
IMO, we need to trade Bruce this offseason to get some salary relief in order to work on the bullpen and upgrade elsewhere. Paying $13M to our 4th or 5th best OF is a misallocation of resources IMO.
I think we'd be able to get a team to take most of his salary or maybe get another player back that has some salary but might fit us better.
Cespedes deal is beyond great for the Mets all things considered. It's unlikely it provides much value surplus (though of course that's possible if he shows flashes of his 2015 self) but barring a career ending injury it's as good as it gets for a star.
mostly on the big picture stuff Dan. lol. We always got hung up on nit picky stuff. Anwyays, totally agree.
Hows Vic Black doing ;)
Got destroyed by injuries. I will never change my stance that he did enough that year with us that he earned a spot on the roster the following year (prior to the all the injuries) lol. You are obsessed though.
I think the market in terms of Bruce could work both ways
Yes, sometimes teams are more aggressive at the deadline and usually the going rate for a "name" is one good prospect minimum during that time. However, the pool is much bigger in the offseason. I just think plenty of teams will see Bruce as a guy that can turn a game around help their team. Essentially a cheap cleanup hitter. The 33 HR, 99 RBIs look sexy, he's an all-star, and he's only 29. Even non competitive teams might look at him as a guy to help sell tickets. Id be really surprised if Sandy didn't get at least one good prospect at least.
RE: I think the market in terms of Bruce could work both ways
Yes, sometimes teams are more aggressive at the deadline and usually the going rate for a "name" is one good prospect minimum during that time. However, the pool is much bigger in the offseason. I just think plenty of teams will see Bruce as a guy that can turn a game around help their team. Essentially a cheap cleanup hitter. The 33 HR, 99 RBIs look sexy, he's an all-star, and he's only 29. Even non competitive teams might look at him as a guy to help sell tickets. Id be really surprised if Sandy didn't get at least one good prospect at least.
Most of what you said is fair/valid but Jay Bruce doesn't sell a SINGLE ticket c'mon lol
I meant if your a team on the outskirts of competing trading for a Bruce might give the appearance that your serious about competing, maybe adding more at the deadline later, ect.
BA-Phillip Evans, 2b, Mets. Evans won the Eastern League batting title, hitting .335 for Binghamton, but the Mets left him exposed to the Rule 5 Draft on Dec. 8. Evans, 24, is giving scouts a good look in Puerto Rico. He had two hits and two RBIs for Caguas on Tuesday and is slashing .328/.394/.484 with seven extra-base hits in 16 games. Hes walked seven times and struck out just nine times. Evans has a short, compact stroke with some pop. He could fit a team as a utility player.
The casual fan still has no idea what wRC+/OPS + is. Its amazing how many dont even know what OPS itself is. The run of the mill fan still gets their jollies off HR/RBIs. lol
The Mets are not considering Gsellman or Lugo for bullpen roles. If they dont make the team as starters out of spring training they will be going to Vegas to start.
talking to many baseball/sports fans. Analytics is not in the mainstream. When I speak up and mention some stats, they look at me as if I'm talking in a foreign language. Although there is some interest, but most fans don't really care outside of the hardcore baseball fans and professionals in the industry.
The Mets are not considering Gsellman or Lugo for bullpen roles. If they dont make the team as starters out of spring training they will be going to Vegas to start.
Good (though I think it's more likely than not Lugo ends up a reliever). Lugo and Gsellman represent the Mets only real SP depth at the moment unless you believe in Ynoa or Montero and I don't.
talking to many baseball/sports fans. Analytics is not in the mainstream. When I speak up and mention some stats, they look at me as if I'm talking in a foreign language. Although there is some interest, but most fans don't really care outside of the hardcore baseball fans and professionals in the industry.
Yup. At least ESPN is now citing OPS in a batting line when a hitter comes to bat. I think it helps a little but SNY and others dont even do that yet. Its crazy.
The Mets are not considering Gsellman or Lugo for bullpen roles. If they dont make the team as starters out of spring training they will be going to Vegas to start.
Good (though I think it's more likely than not Lugo ends up a reliever). Lugo and Gsellman represent the Mets only real SP depth at the moment unless you believe in Ynoa or Montero and I don't.
Agreed. Im much higher on Ynoa than Montero though as a maybe a ground ball specialist. Still number 5 upside. Im intrigued to see how Flexen, Church, and Molina do/move in 2017 (not saying Im psyched about these guys only that their "next"). They are probably the next line of depth coming in the next year or two. Szapucki/Dunn after that obviously.
I think Gsellman makes the team as the 5th starter
and Wheeler and Lugo head to AAA to start. The more I think about it, Wheeler has just missed too much time. A few good starts in spring training probably wont convince anyone he's 100% ready unless he blows the doors off.
would not be comfortable with Ynoa or Montero making a bunch of starts for this team. Not saying Ynoa is a total lost cause (he still throws hard) but I'm much higher on Lugo and significantly higher on Gsellman (Really impressed me). Knapp and Ynoa are likely similar level talents. The Mets like Flexen (though the numbers haven't been there and major red flags health wise), Church is pretty meh. His pure stuff isn't very good and that showed up in A+. I'd be pretty shocked if Molina isn't a reliever.
they could end up sucking, relievers, ect... My point was though that the Mets wont be moving them to relievers any time soon. They are the next line of depth one way or the other and a lot can change in a season, guys learn new pitches, improve, ect. I like to play numbers.. 3 guys have talent/look interesting maybe 1 surprises and makes it. Not a dis in any way shape or form but you probably didn't think too highly of Gsellman last year this time as an example (at least to not the level he's at now).
DiComo just tweeted Wheeler might start the year coming out of the bullpen. Not sure how I feel about that. Guy has a million injuries and throws a 100 mph and you want to have him pitch every day? Ugh.
the idea of Wheeler "starting" in the pen. Puts Collins in position to have to worry about when/how often he uses Wheeler and Wheeler needs innings. Terrible idea for all involved. Gsellman to the rotation, Lugo to AAA, Wheeler to AA.
the idea of Wheeler "starting" in the pen. Puts Collins in position to have to worry about when/how often he uses Wheeler and Wheeler needs innings. Terrible idea for all involved. Gsellman to the rotation, Lugo to AAA, Wheeler to AA.
+1. Even better sending him to Bing to keep him close and out of Vegas.
they could end up sucking, relievers, ect... My point was though that the Mets wont be moving them to relievers any time soon. They are the next line of depth one way or the other and a lot can change in a season, guys learn new pitches, improve, ect. I like to play numbers.. 3 guys have talent/look interesting maybe 1 surprises and makes it. Not a dis in any way shape or form but you probably didn't think too highly of Gsellman last year this time as an example (at least to not the level he's at now).
I will say while I admit I was not high enough on Gsellman there were many who were high on him. Church/Ynoa don't really have anyone pumping up their stuff. Church was 88-91 when Jeff P saw him (was pretty horrid in A+ in a very SSS) and Ynoa is what he is.
it's a playoff race and Wheeler to the pen helped them, got for it. But to open the season what does it do for anyone? Wheeler doesn't get innings and Collins is stuck with having to manage 1 pitcher differently than the rest.
in Columbia(mostly excellent), and he did struggle with the adjustment in St. Lucie (3.91 FIP) but I seem to remember him turning in a few good games towards the end. Also didnt they jerk him all the way up to Vegas for a minute?(could be misremembering) Its a learning process and Church missed a ton of time to injury. He also could have tired down the stretch by the time he got to St. Lucie. I cant take such samples too seriously. He's just a guy to watch for me. Could put himself on the radar in 2017, could not.
in Columbia(mostly excellent), and he did struggle with the adjustment in St. Lucie (3.91 FIP) but I seem to remember him turning in a few good games towards the end. Also didnt they jerk him all the way up to Vegas for a minute?(could be misremembering) Its a learning process and Church missed a ton of time to injury. He also could have tired down the stretch by the time he got to St. Lucie. I cant take such samples too seriously. He's just a guy to watch for me. Could put himself on the radar in 2017, could not.
Forget the FIP. He threw 35 innings striking out 22, for the season 78 k's over 95.2 innings. In conjunction with his "meh" velocity his era had people a bit too excited. Gsellman was still throwing 91-93 even prior to 2016. Church isn't all that young for a guy you are hoping to have a velocity spike (22).
citing him as a "just miss" on top 100 lists. Anyways, all good.
Ynoa is what he is, a guy who throws a straight solid velocity FB with not much else. 78 k's over 154.1 innings solid ground ball rate or not generally does NOT play as an MLB starter.
you don't even hear Ynoa "in the mix" for the rotation like Gsellman, Wheeler, Lugo.
All three of those have already experienced success at the major league level. This has devolved into something else now so I'm just going to bow out. Lol.
And the "experts" is it's almost always reactionary. Very few go out on a limb before a guy emerges. Church rips off 100 innings in St. Lucie next year that match his Columbia from last year and suddenly everyone's mentioning him and it still seems "fresh" because 99 % of the fanbase isn't tracking the minors to that level. It's all good... nothing wrong with it...but sometimes it's cool to just sit back and see what happens. These are all top 20/30 guys we are talking about. It's not like we are discussing possible intrigue/improvement from filler/zeros.
surprised how many people thought JDM would be "cheap" to obtain while still believing the inferior Bruce would bring back a good return. Martinez is a better player, not really sure how that works lol
And the "experts" is it's almost always reactionary. Very few go out on a limb before a guy emerges. Church rips off 100 innings in St. Lucie next year that match his Columbia from last year and suddenly everyone's mentioning him and it still seems "fresh" because 99 % of the fanbase isn't tracking the minors to that level. It's all good... nothing wrong with it...but sometimes it's cool to just sit back and see what happens. These are all top 20/30 guys we are talking about. It's not like we are discussing possible intrigue/improvement from filler/zeros.
Pundits generally aren't changing their view much on "meh" velocity guys without much projection. 6'2 190 88-92 on the FB isn't much to dream on.
20. Andrew Church, RHP
Height: 6'2", Weight: 200 lbs.
DOB: 8/7/94 (22)
Acquired: 2nd round, 2013 Draft (Basic High School, Nevada)
Bats/Throws: R/R
2016: Columbia (Low-A): 9 G (9 GS), 56.2 IP, 38 H, 16 R, 14 ER (2.22 ERA), 10 BB, 52 K / St. Lucie (High-A): 6 G (6 GS), 35.0 IP, 31 H, 16 R, 14 ER (3.60 ERA), 14 H, BB, 22 K / Las Vegas (Triple-A): 1 G (1 GS), 4.0 IP, 7 H, 3 R, 3 ER (6.75 ERA), 1 BB, 4 K
The saga of Andrew Church has been a relatively strange one, and 2016 was no different. After falling off the radar thanks to injuries, Church resurfaced in 2016 and was highly effective in both Columbia, where he spent the bulk of the season, and St. Lucie. His fastball sits 89-91 MPH and touches as high as 95 MPH. Since being drafted, he has sidelined his curveball and instead replaced it with a slider that is more effective thanks to his arm slot. He rounds out his pitching repertoire with a changeup that is still very raw and is a work in progress.
Greg says:
We had largely written off the former second-round pick after he had floundered in extended spring training and short season ball since being drafted. He burst back onto the scene this year, dominating Low-A and holding his own in High-A. He features a fastball that can touch 95, but is probably more of a low 90s offering. His slider appears to be an above average offering, so that combination should get him to at least Double-A as a starter. If his changeup catches up to the slider, and the fastball settles in the higher range hes shown, it could be an exciting profile.
Lukas says:
Church reached Triple-A and posted good peripherals in his four-inning sample, but the rest of his minor league resume remains unimpressive. He also has yet to throw more than 100 innings in a season, making him a likely reliever at the next level. Close to major league ready pitching has some value though, and maybe Dan Warthen makes things play up.
Steve says:
I didnt really know what to make of Church when the Mets drafted him in the second-round years ago, and to be honest, I still dont know what to make of him. Despite solid numbers in 2016, I feel a bit pessimistic on Church. Nothing that he throws is exactly plus, his is still raw, and its not exactly like the right-hander has a track record. Still, he will be entering his age 22 season, and has time to refine his secondary pitches.
What would Mets have to add to Bruce to get Andrew McCutchen from the Pirates? Nimmo and Cecchini? Do you do that trade?
Pirates would 100% balk at that. McCutchen is their "Wright", his deal is team friendly and they have young talent at SS. It would start with Conforto or Matz.
His metrics were trending down for years prior to last year where he was just ridiculously bad defensively. He's in his 30s and some guys just dont age well. I dont see him as a fit really.
His metrics were trending down for years prior to last year where he was just ridiculously bad defensively. He's in his 30s and some guys just dont age well. I dont see him as a fit really.
On the cheap I'd do it but overall I agree. I'd certainly do Bruce/Nimmo/Cecchini (which amounts to Nimmo/Cecchini but the Pirates would not.
and I actually do think he will bounce back offensively... I just think he needs to be in a corner going forward. Everybody penciling him in as this CF are a little off IMO.
and I actually do think he will bounce back offensively... I just think he needs to be in a corner going forward. Everybody penciling him in as this CF are a little off IMO.
There is some thought he was struggling so badly at the plate that he took it into the field with him (who knows how true it is) but it's more likely he simply is a step slower. On the cheap it would be a no-brainer decline and all (incredible contract) but more likely than not he'd be in a corner in your best alignment.
And the dodgers and Yankees. With everyone else not really having much of an impact. It is semi crazy to me that the players union seemingly gave up nothing in this whole thing but got fairly big concessions.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Some additional details on new CBA coming, starting with this: A player no longer can receive a qualifying offer more than once.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Team that loses QO free agent will get pick only if player signs contract of $50M+. Pick it gets will depend upon that teams market size.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Club that signs QO free agent, if it exceeds luxury-tax threshold, will lose 2nd-rounder, 5th-rounder and $1M in intl bonus money.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Club that signs QO free agent, if it does not exceed luxury-tax threshold, will lose 3rd-rounder.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
And on schedule: Starting in 2018, season will start mid-week, helping create extra off-days in schedule.
@Ken_Rosenthal 1h1 hour ago
Owners also had concerns about creating problems with extra spot from April-Aug. in order to fix problem in Sept. Topic could be revisited.
@Joelsherman1 1h1 hour ago Manhattan, NY
Heard 1 other interesting CBA detail: new MLB players will be banned from using smokeless tobacco, those already playing grandfathered in
or that he's playing Santa and not an injury thanks.
Michael BaronVerified account
@michaelgbaron
Jacob deGrom will meet members of the media tomorrow 10:45 AM at Citi Field. There isnt any other information. So, I wonder if thats good.
Ken RosenthalVerified account
@Ken_Rosenthal
Sources: #Pirates targeting #Nationals minor-league OFer Victor Robles, 19, in McCutchen talks, as they did in July. Will want more as well.
and Walker back plus the theoretical health of at least a couple if not all of the starting pitchers the Mets still won't be favorites.
I'd like to see them sign Chapman or acquire a closer, but I know that's a long shot. With uncertainty around Familia I'd hate to see the back of the bullpen go from a strength to a weakness so quickly.
not as obsessed with Granderson or Bruce for a reliever as some people. Why can't they trade either one for prospects and use surplus (or FA) for a reliever? Why must both issues be corrected within the same move?
not as obsessed with Granderson or Bruce for a reliever as some people. Why can't they trade either one for prospects and use surplus (or FA) for a reliever? Why must both issues be corrected within the same move?
they don't have to be. just a suggestion. the Mets seem inclined to trade Bruce and they need a bullpen guy.
if they trade a prospect for one, great, the point wasn't getting rid of Bruce, it was acquiring bullpen help.
not as obsessed with Granderson or Bruce for a reliever as some people. Why can't they trade either one for prospects and use surplus (or FA) for a reliever? Why must both issues be corrected within the same move?
they don't have to be. just a suggestion. the Mets seem inclined to trade Bruce and they need a bullpen guy.
if they trade a prospect for one, great, the point wasn't getting rid of Bruce, it was acquiring bullpen help.
I don't care so much how they do it.
PJ,
100% wasn't aimed at you. I just see people mentioning a ton of relievers for one of them (I'm not against a reliever). Just not sure why it has to all go down in one move. You add surplus somewhere else and add a different reliever it's the same idea. Also some of the relievers being mentioned are pretty unrealistic. 1 year of Granderson isn't buying you 5 years of Givens etc.
I don't know the league and all the players as well as some of you.
I just know the Mets could use bullpen help, even more if Familia is suspended.
Chapman is the name I know is available, so I'd seriously consider him, but 100M (ballpark #'s I'd heard for his next contract) seems too much for a closer, but I'd rather get a guy like Chapman for just money than trade assets for someone lesser.
could still get 1st round picks if any of the pitchers or other players go, but they won't be able to qualify Walker again.
"Key changes involve the qualifying offers clubs can make to their former players after they become free agents the figure was $17.2 million this year. If a player turns down the offer and signs elsewhere, his new team forfeits an amateur draft pick, which usually had been in the first round under the old deal.
Under the new rules, a player can receive a qualifying offer only once in his career and will have 10 days to consider it instead of seven. A club signing a player who declined a qualifying offer would lose its third-highest amateur draft pick if it is a revenue-sharing receiver, its second- and fifth-highest picks (plus a loss of $1 million in its international draft pool) if it pays luxury tax for the just-ended season, and its second-highest pick (plus $500,000 in the international draft pool) if it is any other team.
A club losing a free agent who passed up a qualifying offer would receive an extra selection after the first round of the next draft if the player signed a contract for $50 million or more and after competitive balance round B if under $50 million. However, if that team pays luxury tax, the extra draft pick would drop to after the fourth round."
Wow. The A's are no longer classified as "small market" so they will lose 30-40 million per season from revenue sharing. You would assume that would make them a prime candidate to snipe some of their "expensive" talent but their most expensive players are Madson (yuck), Lowrie (yuck), Axford and Doolittle who is on a crazy good deal.
Mark BowmanVerified account
@mlbbowman
The Braves have traded RHP John Gant, RHP Chris Ellis and INF Luke Dykstra to the Cardinals for LHP Jaime Garcia.
It's about time they started acting like a team that's in the market size they are. Hopefully the impetus to get a stadium deal done (esp now that Wolf is out of the way)
Arrested after leaving the scene in a DUI related accident. This after being under investigation for raping a girl last year. Glad we stayed away from that one.
I have asked this before but does anyone think there is any chance Reyes pulls a Desmond and takes fly balls in spring? Or is that asking to much of his legs?
I don't think I could stomach giving up the pick for fowler or Desmond and I am not sure that Carlos Gomez is an option unless his market craters
I have asked this before but does anyone think there is any chance Reyes pulls a Desmond and takes fly balls in spring? Or is that asking to much of his legs?
I don't think I could stomach giving up the pick for fowler or Desmond and I am not sure that Carlos Gomez is an option unless his market craters
I really dont see the point of it barring an emergency type of situation. Reyes is almost as old as Granderson and Granderson just proved he can still play there at least decently (and has played almost his whole career there). You have a gold glover in Lagares backing him up and Nimmo has played a bunch of CF in his life (whether he's average/below average or what).
Just go with Granderson and Lagares and baby Grandy. Hopefully Nimmo keeps hitting and can take over at some point.
Suspect Melancon gets closer to 15 and Blevins closer to 10
I dont doubt what you're saying but 10 million for a LOOGY would be absurd!!! lol. Melancon I could see if there's a bidding war for sure. I'd still offer him 4/45 and see what happens.
said the Mets are in fact in the market for a late-inning closer type in light of Familia's suspension so I actually do think we'll be in on a few guys. I bet we pass on Chapman and Janson for sure but I could see us adding a "name". I think we are going after a catcher too.
Bullpens kind of evolve as the year goes on. That's pretty much my dream offseason though. I dont think it will go down like that either but I do think it will be some variation of it. A loogy, a guy with some closing experience, a catcher, maybe KJ. It's really just rounding off the edges at this point.
I know Reed has closing experience, but I think he's better in that 8th inning role and the last time he was relied on as the primary closer he wasn't very good. In fact when you look at his stats, his peripherals were never as good as they were this past one plus seasons with the Mets.
not much worse to demoralize a team than a closer blowing leads.
I'd make closer a priority and then if/when Familia comes back it's a good problem to have. I assume you watched the playoffs, both teams in the WS used their BP's a lot and closers unconventionally (Miller at least).
I know Reed has closing experience, but I think he's better in that 8th inning role and the last time he was relied on as the primary closer he wasn't very good. In fact when you look at his stats, his peripherals were never as good as they were this past one plus seasons with the Mets.
not much worse to demoralize a team than a closer blowing leads.
I'd make closer a priority and then if/when Familia comes back it's a good problem to have. I assume you watched the playoffs, both teams in the WS used their BP's a lot and closers unconventionally (Miller at least).
Yeah and almost all of those teams acquired bullpen help later in the year/deadline. Cubs didnt have Chapman. Indians didnt have Miller. Nationals didn't have Melancon. Familia is probably looking at a 30 day suspension. Is it really the end of the world if one of the best relievers in all of baseball last year who has over 100 saves closes for us in April?? Is it really that awful if Robles/Smoker got their feet a little wet in big moments early?? Familia isn't getting suspended for the year. lol. It's also a LONG season.
And of course the Mets will make moves anyway this offseason
Just saying hypothetically even if they did nothing it wont be the end of the world. If the worst case scenario is Edgin's the LOOGY, Smoker/Robles get setup work, Plawecki's the backup, and Nimmo is the 5th OF/25th man... the roster isn't that far off from the best case scenario.
but bullpen by committees never work IMO, and you just need someone who can consistently close.
I just wouldn't minimize it.
Ok, well we have 2 of the of the top 8 relievers in baseball last year. Familia isn't going anywhere. Forgive me if I dont freak out if Reed has to close out some games against the Marlins, Reds, and Padres in April!
and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
Simply because the roster is close to damn set. Obviously, we need to find a taker for Bruce. Hopefully, the Granderson talk is a smokescreen. LOOGY's can go very late in the offseason. Id expect Sandy to come a way with a catcher in the meetings and a Bruce deal. That's what Im hoping for anyway.
and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
I think you can win the WS with the Mets rotation and lineup, but take Familia out of the pen and BP becomes a weakness IMO.
I'm not saying do something drastic, but I'd not be comfortable going in to the season for an undertermined amout of time without Familia and only the players on today's roster in the pen.
and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
I think you can win the WS with the Mets rotation and lineup, but take Familia out of the pen and BP becomes a weakness IMO.
I'm not saying do something drastic, but I'd not be comfortable going in to the season for an undertermined amout of time without Familia and only the players on today's roster in the pen.
Ok but why are you talking about a WS with Familia off the roster? There is literally zero chance of that happening unless he's injured. Plus with as volatile as relievers can be season to season and how easily they can get injured it might actually make MORE sense to go after a guy at the deadline like the Cubs, Indians, and Nationals did. Sandy's added Clippard, Reed, and Salas at the deadline and Blevins in Spring Training. He seems to continually look for guys and isnt afraid to make deals later.
wouldn't be on the WS roster, but you need to get to the WS.
and with the Nationals proving 2015 was an anomaly and IMO they're better than that and 2016 is more the reality for them and the division is the preferred way to the playoffs I don't think the Mets have 30 days to roll the dice on a closer.
that's what I meant by the Mets can win the WS with their rotation and lineup, but not BP without Familia. I was suggesting to get there.
I think part of your problem is you dont trust Reed
Which is fine. The guy has closed for three entire seasons, however. He is coming off a career year where he was one of the top 4 relievers in all of baseball and he's still 27. There would be no closer by committee in April or "uncertainty". Reed's your closer and likely a damn good one. You aren't throwing away games in April at all IMO. How else are you supposed to get a look at younger players anyway? It's a freaking long season. Not the end of the world to test a few guys and see what they got. I think Smoker is going to be a late inning option very early.
as a closer, his best career numbers were the past season and a half in NY. By far in some cases.
Look at his stats and his 2016 season is such an outlier, with relievers being so fungible you have to hope it's not an anomaly but the norm with him going forward. I like him, but I'd hate to put my eggs all in that basket.
I'm not saying the Mets don't try it, Reed has been great as a Met, but I prefer him in the 8th inning role.
I'd love to be able to shorten games. Don't rely on starters to HAVE to go 7 innings.
IMO the Mets need another premier bullpen arm to do it.
Reed saving 29, 42, and 32 games averaging about a 3.5 FIP as a 21-23 year old isn't really peanuts. He flat out credits Warthen for improving him further in 2016 (really second half 2015 too). I just think you're severely undervaluing him. 20 teams in baseball make him their number one option closer in a blink if they had him after last year.
I don't trust himit all
Didn't care for him going into 16 and just as concerned going into 17. Most likely guy on team to underperform his salary. Just a personal opinion.
When they are usually the easiest and cheapest piece to acquire in the offseason. Look at what miller cost monatarily and look at the return he got. Relievers somehow increase massively in value mid season.
I don't trust himit all
Didn't care for him going into 16 and just as concerned going into 17. Most likely guy on team to underperform his salary. Just a personal opinion.
Rzepczynski too. Good LOOGY. Expected to settle for about 10 mil/2 years
Signed with Seattle, 2 year deal
Yup. Was citing what he was expected to sign for. 10 mil for 2 years. Was just saying he's a pretty damn good LOOGY and isn't signing for a kings ransom.
Is going to have a 1.97 FIP and a 1.97 ERA in 2017? Hell no. Do I think at minimum he'll be the guy who was a closer for 3 years averaging 30 saves with a 3.5 FIP?? Hell yes. Do I think somewhere in that range will be good enough while Familia is out for 30 days or so?? Hell yes.
You dont just become that dominant and that elite for nearly 80 innings unless something was really clicking. Not really going out on a limb saying he wont be "as" dominant though IMO.
Sandy is going to fill out the pen so this is really pretty pointless. I just think Reed and Familia will form an excellent tandem once again in 2017 and we dont really need that dominant name closer that is all the rage lately. But everyone saw my dream wish list and it had Melancom on it. Shit, it's only money and I cant see many other places we can spend it! Why not?
When they are usually the easiest and cheapest piece to acquire in the offseason. Look at what miller cost monatarily and look at the return he got. Relievers somehow increase massively in value mid season.
Except that none of these relievers are cheap in the offseason anymore. Hell, Dan's predicting 10 mil per for Blevins! That's nuts!
Alex Avila (30)
Juan Centeno (27)
Steve Clevenger (31)
Hank Conger (29)
A.J. Ellis (36)
Chris Gimenez (34)
Ryan Hanigan (36)
Nick Hundley (33)
Chris Iannetta (34)
Jeff Mathis (34)
Dioner Navarro (33)
Brayan Pea (35)
A.J. Pierzynski (40)
Wilson Ramos (29)
Wilin Rosario (28)
Jarrod Saltalamacchia (32)
Geovany Soto (34)
Kurt Suzuki (33)
Josh Thole (30)
Matt Wieters (31)
Bobby Wilson (34)
It takes a lot for me to change an opinion on a player
me, Blevins contract is going to dwarf 2 years 10 million. I'm not saying he's going to get some monster deal but I'm expecting an AAV MUCH closer to 10 per than 5.
RE: It takes a lot for me to change an opinion on a player
me, Blevins contract is going to dwarf 2 years 10 million. I'm not saying he's going to get some monster deal but I'm expecting an AAV MUCH closer to 10 per than 5.
Hey, I said 7. I know the market has gotten crazy. I was actually deferring to you.
me, Blevins contract is going to dwarf 2 years 10 million. I'm not saying he's going to get some monster deal but I'm expecting an AAV MUCH closer to 10 per than 5.
Hey, I said 7. I know the market has gotten crazy. I was actually deferring to you.
I wasn't knocking what you said but I think 7 is still going to be low. I'm predicting either a very high AAV like 2 years 18, or 3 years 21-ish.
but I like him in the 8th inning. I do not like him closing.
And if he's closing it has a domino effect and weakens the 8th inning, which in turn weakens the 7th inning.
the Mets need a bullpen arm with Familia still here, though a lesser one, without him for an undetermined amount of time, it's more critical to get someone and not a JAG, a back of the bullpen guy.
now I have beaten this horse to death. I'm not stressing about it, not clamoring for it, or any other extreme anyone wants to apply to it, but when I'm evaluating the roster the hole without Familia is glaring IMO.
When Mejia was suspended, having Familia worked out perfectly, but that domino effect meant not having an 8th inning guy and cost assets to get Clippard and Reed.
Why give up some of this assets for a guy like Sale? Don't they have arms in the minors? That is why I thought thy signed all these vets to one year deals.
would Houston trade Gattis? They are WS contenders, that's not the kind of team that wants a Zack Wheeler and Gregerson is one of their best relievers. Houston would surely pass on that offer.
I think the assumption is they would want/need Bruce
2.99 FIP, 10.5 k/9, no money left after the season, Gattis 2.6 fWAR in 2016. Trade makes absolutely no sense for Houston. An innings limited SP who has missed 2 seasons aka ??? and an inferior player to the one they are trading (Bruce for Gattis). Maybe a non-contender does that for Wheeler's potential upside but not a legit WS contender. Makes absolutely no sense.
I know he DH's a lot. He's a good hitter but if they are only using him as a DH Bruce sort of replaces that and then you have the potential of Wheeler becoming a TOR starter again by the time the year is out. I dont know...
RE: I think the assumption is they would want/need Bruce
But why would they need Bruce at the expense of Gattis? Gattis 32 homers, .345 wOBA, 119 wRC+, Bruce 33 homers .340 wOBA 111 wRC+ and Gattis can catch, play OF, DH play 1b. Houston also lost Castro, now they are getting rid of their other catcher?
RE: RE: I think the assumption is they would want/need Bruce
But why would they need Bruce at the expense of Gattis? Gattis 32 homers, .345 wOBA, 119 wRC+, Bruce 33 homers .340 wOBA 111 wRC+ and Gattis can catch, play OF, DH play 1b. Houston also lost Castro, now they are getting rid of their other catcher?
They would really have to love Wheeler, be dreaming on him reclaiming his form. I agree, it doesn't make much sense.
I know he DH's a lot. He's a good hitter but if they are only using him as a DH Bruce sort of replaces that and then you have the potential of Wheeler becoming a TOR starter again by the time the year is out. I dont know...
He played 55 games at C last season and they had Castro as the starter. Gattis actually was 18/90 in terms of pitch framing. He's expected to catch a lot more this season with Castro gone. Link - ( New Window )
sure there are teams trying to buy low on lottery ticket Wheeler but contenders aren't giving up proven key pieces of their roster for him. I think more realistically you would see bad teams offering up veteran talent to "take a shot" on him.
sure there are teams trying to buy low on lottery ticket Wheeler but contenders aren't giving up proven key pieces of their roster for him. I think more realistically you would see bad teams offering up veteran talent to "take a shot" on him.
His value is very low and based on recent history they'll use 8 - 12 starting pitchers this year.
His value is highest with the Mets.
Someone like Lugo I could see them trade because although they will need him as a starter at some point, unless you think his 2016 is a floor, he's probably at his peak value.
Most of Lugo's peripherals outshined his FIP unlike Gsellman who was more inline across the board.
He throws hard and doesn't walk too many. He's only just getting his feet wet and everyone can get touched in Vegas who's not a phenom. Id be careful not to look at his Vegas numbers/cup of coffee in the majors as the end all be all. He was much better in the minors 2013-2015. I think he's somebody that could improve under Warthen and at least be a valuable bullpen piece.
His value is very low and based on recent history they'll use 8 - 12 starting pitchers this year.
His value is highest with the Mets.
Someone like Lugo I could see them trade because although they will need him as a starter at some point, unless you think his 2016 is a floor, he's probably at his peak value.
Most of Lugo's peripherals outshined his FIP unlike Gsellman who was more inline across the board.
PJ,
I agree with you however (and admittedly I'm not an expert in spin rate) but Law cited Lugo's spin rate as to why he didn't think there was a big gap between Gsellman (who he likes) and Lugo. I do agree however that Lugo wasn't quite as good as his era.
mom is also extremely nice on twitter (she contacted me not vice versa!)
Cool. What did she say?
She basically sometimes chimes in with information. For example, when Lugo was moved to the pen and was pitching well I tweeted out some numbers and she responded saying they had him throw his CB more (which he lost his feel for) and had found it back in the pen. Little things like that. Gant's dad was really nice too.
The New York Mets biggest need left this offseason is improving the bullpen and according to Jon Heyman of Fan Rag Sports, they intend to add at least two left-handed relievers.
The New York Mets biggest need left this offseason is improving the bullpen and according to Jon Heyman of Fan Rag Sports, they intend to add at least two left-handed relievers.
I agree with Jon Heyman, but I'd rather hear what Adam Rubin thinks, I think Rubin knows the Mets better
the bullpen. How is it even debatable? Rotation and lineup are virtually set. We are actually trying to unload guys because we have too many pieces. The bench is also full outside of maybe KJ. Salas and Blevins haven't re-signed. Of course the bullpen is virtually the only area we can address.
I'm very interested to see what Sandy does with the BP
seems like we have a lot of tradeable pieces between Bruce, Nimmo, Rivera, Cecchini, Lugo, Robles, Gsellman (only for someone lights out), etc. Obviously we'd be less thrilled dealing some of those guys than others, but the point is we'll likely be a popular team to converse with over the next week.
Someone talk me out of Alex Avila on a 1 year deal Link - ( New Window )
I cant at all. wRC+ of 114 against righties for his career. Good hitter and has been playing good D the last few years. Another perfect platoon candidate for TDA. Good find.
just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
I'm not high on Wieters given his likely price. Oft-injured, Boras client, terrible pitch framer. If you told me he could be had for say 3 years at his rough actual value... say 12-13 per I'd probably do it but that would be my absolute max. No way more than 3 years, he's really trending the wrong way (note the Orioles didn't even want him back and they won what? nearly 90 games? and they don't have a replacement on the roster). If the market fell to the point he took a "fair" deal I'd take him but otherwise I don't really like him. Overrated thanks to his previous prospect status. I don't think most people realize he's 31 this season.
probably offer up Nimmo for Vogt (Beane liked him previously). Nothing against Nimmo at all but Vogt was 5th in fWAR, 4th in wOBA, 4th in wRC+ the past 2 seasons at his position. He's also a poor pitch framer but he'd still represent an upgrade and he's cheap/cost controlled through any years you would want him.
just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
I'm not high on Wieters given his likely price. Oft-injured, Boras client, terrible pitch framer. If you told me he could be had for say 3 years at his rough actual value... say 12-13 per I'd probably do it but that would be my absolute max. No way more than 3 years, he's really trending the wrong way (note the Orioles didn't even want him back and they won what? nearly 90 games? and they don't have a replacement on the roster). If the market fell to the point he took a "fair" deal I'd take him but otherwise I don't really like him. Overrated thanks to his previous prospect status. I don't think most people realize he's 31 this season.
Yeah, I know how old he is, and he went from phenom to jag very quickly.
I just like him better than Vogt if Wieters could be signed to a reasonable deal, Seems like the bulk of the Mets fans on this site seem to want to acquire Vogt and he's a 32/33 year old jag, so is Wieters at this point (slightly younger), but for Wieters it's just money.
on Wieters. He stinks. A 3 year deal would be a disaster. I'd take him for one year at around $7M but he'll almost surely get more than that. I'm willing to predict that TDA has a better season next year than Wieters.
probably offer up Nimmo for Vogt (Beane liked him previously). Nothing against Nimmo at all but Vogt was 5th in fWAR, 4th in wOBA, 4th in wRC+ the past 2 seasons at his position. He's also a poor pitch framer but he'd still represent an upgrade and he's cheap/cost controlled through any years you would want him.
I think Beane would want more for Vogt. Would you give him Gsellman for Vogt?
probably offer up Nimmo for Vogt (Beane liked him previously). Nothing against Nimmo at all but Vogt was 5th in fWAR, 4th in wOBA, 4th in wRC+ the past 2 seasons at his position. He's also a poor pitch framer but he'd still represent an upgrade and he's cheap/cost controlled through any years you would want him.
I think Beane would want more for Vogt. Would you give him Gsellman for Vogt?
Thing is, and this isn't a Mets knock but there IS a budget and the price between the 2 players is pretty significant so if my choices are more money spent on the pen + Vogt minus Nimmo or committing big money to Wieters at the expense of the pen I'm going with the Vogt option. I already mentioned this but the Orioles not only didn't offer Wieters the QO but they didn't even engage him in extension talks (though there has been some talk they told him if he doesn't find his "big" deal to give them a call. That's pretty damning for a team sans catcher.
This past season Wieters
88 wRC+
.307 wOBA
.165 ISO
(and as I stated a poor pitch framer)
Reportedly looking for 4 years 60 million
Vogt (and again I'm not some massive Vogt proponent) but-
93 wRC+
.305 wOBA
.155 ISO
and will cost a projected 3.7 million which you can walk away from after the year or hold his rights through 2019.
If Wieters falls into a "fair" range I'm in. But 4 years would be really, really dumb.
would not give up Gsellman for Vogt and would only forfeit Nimmo because we do have Conforto/Cespedes going forward so if God forbid we need to add another OF in the off-season next year, so be it.
Wieters a long-term contract, but I'd give him slightly more on a one-year deal if it comes down to it.
Switch-hitter with some pop and a decent arm to throw out runners.
I believe you on the pitch framing, but I'm still somewhat skeptical of defensive metrics, so I'm not sure what to believe about pitch framing as a measurable. But regardless I think Wieters is a better fit.
It's like people on here hear the name Vogt and think he's Johnny Bench. He's practically identical to Wieters without the switch hitting.
At this point I feel the Mets have a few year window, I'd overpay short-term while this window is around as opposed to prospects.
Nimmo I'd trade though so if that's all it took for Vogt I wouldn't care, but you know it will wind up Nimmo and Szapucki for Vogt and I'll have to hate the guy.
pitch framing is more straight forward than other defensive metrics. Teams (basically) use visual graphs based on "actual" strike zone vs. the % of strikes called for x catcher. It's a bit more complicated than that (if you are actually interested I would talk to Matt Simon on twitter) but that's the basic gist.
For whatever reason his value isn't that high right now in spit of him basically being the best hitter in the PCL last year. His patience/eye is rare for a hitter so young. On top of that, we are dealing Bruce and Granderson is turning 36. We are dangerously thin in the OF. Do we really want Lagares as our only depth if we lose a starter to injury? What if two guys go down?
Jon Heyman @JonHeyman 9m9 minutes ago Jersey City, NJ
rene rivera settles with mets, $1.75M
Like I had mentioned the other day, given the other FA options, this is not a terrible decision. He did a really good job handling our pitchers last year.
is one of the worst pitch framers in baseball (on par with Wieters) and has been worth .5 fWAR the past 2 seasons COMBINED. Not trying to argue with you but I'm not understanding your interest in Suzuki. He's a bad baseball player. Link - ( New Window )
is one of the worst pitch framers in baseball (on par with Wieters) and has been worth .5 fWAR the past 2 seasons COMBINED. Not trying to argue with you but I'm not understanding your interest in Suzuki. He's a bad baseball player. Link - ( New Window )
In 2015 he had an awful year with the bat and that is why you are getting that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher and he's graded positively defensively as a catcher every year of his career. He also hits righties better than lefties for his career. Im not saying he's great but I dont think he would be difficult to obtain.
1. Cervelli (unlikely)
2. Norris
3. Wolters
4. Vogt (depends on the price)
5. Castillo
6. Wieters (his ranking would depend on cost, I'd move him up if he's take 2 years but he's looking for 4)
7. Herrmann (probably sucks but was really impressive in limited time last season)
8. No idea, some guy I haven't thought of/didn't know was available like a Tom Murphy
Im not comparing him to somebody like Wieters but if I was? Wieters hasn't been a 2 WAR player in any of the last 3 years either. 87 wRC+ to 97 wRC+. Wieters is better but not by a whole lot.
is one of the worst pitch framers in baseball (on par with Wieters) and has been worth .5 fWAR the past 2 seasons COMBINED. Not trying to argue with you but I'm not understanding your interest in Suzuki. He's a bad baseball player. Link - ( New Window )
In 2015 he had an awful year with the bat and that is why you are getting that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher and he's graded positively defensively as a catcher every year of his career. He also hits righties better than lefties for his career. Im not saying he's great but I dont think he would be difficult to obtain.
But he was worth 0.6 fWAR during the 2016 season as well (with poor framing numbers) at that point you might as well just hope TDA/Rivera/Plawecki somehow have good seasons. Suzuki has been a league average regular (barely) twice since 2009 (2014 and 2011). If we are going to bring on a guy who "gives away" strikes I'd have to have offense to off-set it and I don't think he brings that.
breaking TDA of that shitty habit of wrapping the bat around his head. Just an awful setup at the plate. Yastremski got away with it but TDA ain't Yaz.
Im not comparing him to somebody like Wieters but if I was? Wieters hasn't been a 2 WAR player in any of the last 3 years either. 87 wRC+ to 97 wRC+. Wieters is better but not by a whole lot.
2015 Matt Wieters played 26 games so to include that as "last 3" is beyond ridiculous no offense. I'm already on record not wanting Wieters but 2016
Wieters 1.7 fWAR
Suzuki 0.6 fWAR
So Wieters was 3 times more valuable over 18 more games played. Suzuki last 3 seasons combined...2.5 fWAR.
are "starters" and some of which are even all-stars. I look at Wieters and Norris, ect. and I dont see Suzuki all that far off and I wouldn't be counting Suzuki as a starter on our team. TDA is still the guy. What I do want is somebody that isn't going to completely fall in his ass if TDA goes down or needs a blow against a tough righty. Mainly, somebody that is at least half way competent with the bat.
breaking TDA of that shitty habit of wrapping the bat around his head. Just an awful setup at the plate. Yastremski got away with it but TDA ain't Yaz.
I don't like it either. He has a pretty slow bat/long swing to begin with. Very odd Long didn't move him away from that. I was hoping he would look into working with Bobby Tewksbary aka "The swing king". Guy is credited with "fixing" both Josh Donaldson and JD Martinez. Matt Joyce has been working with him which apparently is part of the reason the A's gambled on him.
Im not comparing him to somebody like Wieters but if I was? Wieters hasn't been a 2 WAR player in any of the last 3 years either. 87 wRC+ to 97 wRC+. Wieters is better but not by a whole lot.
2015 Matt Wieters played 26 games so to include that as "last 3" is beyond ridiculous no offense. I'm already on record not wanting Wieters but 2016
Wieters 1.7 fWAR
Suzuki 0.6 fWAR
So Wieters was 3 times more valuable over 18 more games played. Suzuki last 3 seasons combined...2.5 fWAR.
Only looked at it in quick glance. Wasn't really looking at his games. Hasn't been a 2 fWAR player in three years is still worth noting IMO. I already mentioned Suzuki was horrid in 2015 so I dont really get comparing that year or driving it home further.
breaking TDA of that shitty habit of wrapping the bat around his head. Just an awful setup at the plate. Yastremski got away with it but TDA ain't Yaz.
Said the same thing every single game last year. According to people familiar with the situation he went AGAINST Long's wished (what worked in 2015) the moment he struggled and thought he would be more comfortable going back to worked in college. Moronic if you ask me.
Supposedly the Mets are eager to start working with TDA
and back end disaster? If he is fantastic for 2 years and a dog for the back two then The cost seems very high. If he does produce for 4 years then is still a high price deal but you get some value
Cespedes has been a 4+ fWAR player over his 1.5 seasons with the Mets. If he's worth say 4.5, 4.5 x 8 million (1 fWar) then he will be worth roughly 80 million his first 2 years alone. As team friendly as a star deal gets
we got 4 likely prime years where he's going to be an above average (possibly GG) LF'er and a prolific RH power hitter, which is currently one of the rarest commodities in the sport. Huge steal, thought we'd definitely need to go 5 years.
He's a really good fit if Beane is in the mood to sell high. He's 32 and has so little long term upside I don't see why Beane wouldn't be interested in selling high. His K% and pitches per plate appearance would be a welcomed help in lengthening the lineup and reducing some of the hot/cold slumps. I know Dan's mentioned his pitch framing deficiencies but in the 2 years before '16 he was much more neutral, so hopefully that was just an aberration. He's probably the best realistically available catcher out there, and he just so happens to be a good lefty compliment to TdA. Nimmo + Robles for Vogt + Doolittle.
Castillo should be a no-brainer at this point, I'd love Tyson Ross as well replacing Dickey/lottery ticket but I'd be shocked
It's funny, when browsing C's Castillo looked to be a great fit but it seemed like there'd be no reason for AZ to move him for a reasonable return, and then they non-tender him. He k's a ton but other than that he's a no-brainer upgrade over Rivera in almost every category. I'd understand them not immediately pouncing if there are better options out there but he'd be a good add.
and back end disaster? If he is fantastic for 2 years and a dog for the back two then The cost seems very high. If he does produce for 4 years then is still a high price deal but you get some value
I can't see Cespedes sucking that much at age 34-35. As long as he is happy with the organization and the team, he won't let his teammates down.
Castillo should be a no-brainer at this point, I'd love Tyson Ross as well replacing Dickey/lottery ticket but I'd be shocked
This. . is it time to give up on TDA? Platoon situation?
Plawecki is not a major league hitter, unfortunately.
It's not time to give up on TDA, but it is time to have a legitimate plan B. Going into ST without a better one than Rivera/Plawecki would be negligent.
RE: RE: Is this Cespedes signing another case of immediate gratification
think it's simply time to have someone in place should 2017 be a repeat of 2016 at the C position. TDA simply doesn't have the MLB track record of success (or staying healthy) that he should be relied upon. Gimme Castillo/TDA with the guy playing better getting more PT. In my view it would be negligent to not bring in SOMEONE "just in case"
Do I have to start swinging the ban hammer around here
Pedro Lopez will succeed Wally Backman as the Triple-A Las Vegas manager, reports ESPN's Adam Rubin. Lopez had been the Double-A manager of Binghamton.
Backman left the organization back in September, citing that he felt 'disrespected' by the team.
Rubin also reports that Frank Viola and Jack Voigt will remain in their their positions as pitching and hitting coaches.
Marc Carig @MarcCarig 2h2 hours ago
Whatever Mets do re: Bruce/Grandy, it sounds like they're positioned to move fairly quickly. Could be a very interesting winter meetings.
Former Nat Marc Rzepczynski would have been a good lefty pickup
lets see this contract
27.5 per yikes
pfffffffffft
Can we just be nice to the team now for a little bit?
And now they are done. Pitchers walk!
been years in a row of this. Can't give away guys now. Bruce is a bargain at this point. They should get superb return
sucks because you want him on the team but this is the ideal actually.
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I wouldn't mind if Rene Rivera comes back next year. The number 1 priority now has to be the bullpen.
I wouldn't mind if Rene Rivera comes back next year. The number 1 priority now has to be the bullpen.
Rivera expected to be non-tendered per Rubin
Ceespedes breakdown: 22.5M, 29M, 29M, 29.5M #mets
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
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How much of an upgrade is Castillo over Rivera?
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Bullpen absolutely is a major priority. Right now it's down a likely suspended Familia and one of their best arms (Blevins).
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In comment 13240007 debo_GIANTS said:
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How much of an upgrade is Castillo over Rivera?
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Her exact words were the Mets felt 2.2 million was too much for a backup catcher.
Sure but that doesn't need to be a closer IMO. A Salas type for the 7th inning is fine and 100% bet that will happen.
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In comment 13240015 DanMetroMan said:
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In comment 13240007 debo_GIANTS said:
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How much of an upgrade is Castillo over Rivera?
#1 The Mets have decided they don't want to pay Rivera the 2 million or so he's going to get so clearly THEY don't think much of Rivera.
#2 Castillo has been worth 3.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.7 fWAR (113 games) the past 4 seasons with 33 homers over the last 2 while grading as above average defensively so he's likely a pretty decent upgrade over Rivera and 4 years younger.
From what Ive heard it certainly isn't the salary in regards to Rivera. They are actually looking at an upgrade and dont want to give him a guaranteed contract to be the 3rd catcher. We'll see.
Her exact words were the Mets felt 2.2 million was too much for a backup catcher.
Cool. I've heard differently from people also with connections. Just sharing.
Sigh of relief.
My only point is they would 100% give Welington Castillo 2.2 million if he were a FA, so in that sense "yes" he'd be a major upgrade. Please pass on Wieters unless his market totally bottoms out.
Considering they DFA'ed him despite room on the roster I'd be pretty surprised. They kept guys like Ty Kelly over him.
I think he could have gotten a fifth year from someone. Guess he really does like it in New York. Glad to have him back.
Next feat: Get something for Jay Bruce.
12.5 million is a lot for a swingman.
I think he will rake next year something closer to the way he ended the year rather than how he played when he first arrived.
Note: Cespedes turned 2/46 into 4/110 by opting out, like I was saying on @goodfundies all year.
I think he will rake next year something closer to the way he ended the year rather than how he played when he first arrived.
It would be pretty shocking if both Granderson and Bruce return and Sandy left Bruce out of his off-season comments on the 2017 starting OF which left some to guess he's a goner. It's not impossible Bruce returns but unlikely. Find it very hard to believe they pay Cespedes huge bucks + Bruce 13.5 + Granderson 15 + Lagares 4.5 + Conforto.
Adam Rubin, ESPN Staff Writer
Lagares......Nimmo....Ruggiano...???
Hope not. One of the worst pitch framers in baseball. Extremely overrated. If his market tables then sure. 2 years 24 or something I'm in but anything more than say 3 for 30ish will likely be a disaster. He's not a good player and he's in decline.
Lagares......Nimmo....Ruggiano...???
Ruggiano is no longer with the Mets
Granderson would be far more attractive for one year than Bruce even though he's 6 years older. Check out their last 3 years Bruce 0.2 war, granderson 8.9. So i can see teams asking for him instead.
Lagares......Nimmo....Ruggiano...???
They havent said it but IMO it should be Cespedes-Granderson/Lagares-Conforto
I agree 100%
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like the only realistic way Bruce is back is if a) They find the trade market to be absolutely awful for him. I'm not expecting much for him but they should get some value or b) Teams show FAR more interest in Granderson to the point they go that direction. I'd guess they claim Bruce is staying and then deal him. I'd say 70% chance he's a goner.
Granderson would be far more attractive for one year than Bruce even though he's 6 years older. Check out their last 3 years Bruce 0.2 war, granderson 8.9. So i can see teams asking for him instead.
I get the impression the Mets are "done" with Bruce so I think the return on granderson would have to be significantly higher. Granderson can fake it in CF, is A++++ off the field (I'm not saying Bruce is a jerk or something just Granderson is unusual) and Granderson can hit leadoff etc. I could be totally off but my impression is Bruce is a goner.
ZGiants98 : 3:20 pm : link : reply
Cespedes will average making 162K a game over the next 4 years. lol More than most of us will make in a year he will make 162 times over.
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And when we lose or go into a funk, we as fans will get more upset then he. Not just talking about Ces. just the player/fan dynamic in general
Agree. Bruce prob just isn't suited for NY. He shouldn't be difficult to move.
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Trade Bruce. Power is still at a premium. He will have suitors.
Trade Bruce. Power is still at a premium. He will have suitors.
Makes $13 mil for a power bat, still 29. Def a market for him.
Vogt is absolutely awful at framing, for a team built on pitching I doubt the Mets would even make the call.
Norris/Buchter combo package would fill 2 of our "holes".
Granderson even said himself he was surprised how well he played in CF and how his body responded. He has renewed confidence that he can more than adequately handle the position.
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But playing Granderson in RF again would almost be criminal. He can play CF at least decently. He is horrid in RF, has no arm, and his metrics went to hell there last year. lol. They started skyrocketing as soon as he was moved.
Granderson even said himself he was surprised how well he played in CF and how his body responded. He has renewed confidence that he can more than adequately handle the position.
I think it will shake out that way whether the Mets are planning it now or not. Conforto doesn't seem like a CF to me so even if they try it I bet it will be back to Grandy/Lagares by May and Im fine with it.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
Yup that's what I would do. Spell him with Nimmo/Conforto once in a while. Remove him in the 7th for Lagares late in games...You can probably work it out to where he got plenty of rest.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
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and missed out. He would have been such a perfect fit for this team.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
Wolters is very interesting, and strategically I agree re: the Cervelli comp, just tough to trust young catchers (as we've learned with TdA and Plawecki).
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5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
Throwing well is extremely overrated when it comes to catchers. The Mets SP are terrible at holding runners on. Unless they do that better teams will run on them anyway. Vogt wasn't "okay" at framing, he was absolutely awful. Framing is far, far more important. As for TDA being good at framing, what does one thing have to do with the other? If TDA hit then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Complaints about his throwing are directly tied to his lack of offense.
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In comment 13240141 Eric on Li said:
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and missed out. He would have been such a perfect fit for this team.
Lucroy is a stud. You see his offensive numbers, then look up his framing ranking...16th overall. Gotta identify our version of Cervelli. An underrated/overlooked guy where the numbers suggest he could be good ie Wolters
Wolters is very interesting, and strategically I agree re: the Cervelli comp, just tough to trust young catchers (as we've learned with TdA and Plawecki).
I just specifically like Wolters because his pitch framing grades near elite, he's a very athletic kid and is "new" to catching so to be so good at this already means he MIGHT be something pretty special back there defensively (and the Rockies already have Tom Murphy). Bruce to Colorado may be a fit as well (1b).
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In comment 13240142 DanMetroMan said:
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5 catchers in baseball were worse than him and that's out of like 90 qualified catchers. He's a solid bat that plays catcher but teams are moving away from guys who can't handle a staff. Look at the bidding war for Jason Castro.
He does throw well (40/94 last 2 years) though, plus we'd still have D'arnaud who frames well. Not a lot of perfect catchers out there. I know Texas said they wanted to keep Lucroy, but I'd still be tempted to try to make them an offer they can't refuse if their negotiations stall out. Some combo of Bruce + TdA + Lugo/Robles/Nimmo types.
Throwing well is extremely overrated when it comes to catchers. The Mets SP are terrible at holding runners on. Unless they do that better teams will run on them anyway. Vogt wasn't "okay" at framing, he was absolutely awful. Framing is far, far more important. As for TDA being good at framing, what does one thing have to do with the other? If TDA hit then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Complaints about his throwing are directly tied to his lack of offense.
Completely agree with all of this word for word.
He's playing but Sandy admitted basically it's "who knows?" in terms of how much or how well. Not putting words in Sandy's mouth but my guess is deep down he'd prefer Wright retires.
Jay Bruce feels like the Mets' most obvious trade chip following the re-signing of Yoenis Cespedes, but the team will also apparently shop Granderson (and his $15 million salary for 2017). Granderson is coming off a year in which he slugged 30 home runs and played in 150 games, but he does turn 36 years old next March.
Source: Marc Carig on TwitterNov 29 - 4:12 PM
Team insiders told Rubin they felt 1b would be MORE stress on his body, not less.
Obviously Bruce will be traded.
Ces/Lagares/Granderson + Nimmo.
Not looking to argue but the numbers don't support that. Wright was still productive offensively when healthy. I don't think anyone knows how he will react to this neck surgery including Wright. All we can do is wait and see. I maintain he will retire if he sucks and the Mets and him will work something out. Or maybe the fixed neck helps him? I doubt it but who knows?
Obviously Bruce will be traded.
Ces/Lagares/Granderson + Nimmo.
I make that trade in a second and keep Bruce in RF.
Yeah we just need better insurance this time around. I'd prefer a vet like Suzuki but I'm not too picky. TDA should still get 60% of the atbats IMO if healthy.
Yup. Main reason I'm not interested. It's a buyers market for catchers and Vogt is an "all star". Bean will be looking to cash in IMO.
If that's the price then it's an obvious no way since we wouldn't even pay that price for Lucroy who is 3x the player Vogt is. My point on Vogt was as a potential interesting piece if Beane were to have interest in the Jay Bruce sweeps. A couple years ago he dealt for Zobrist with 1 year, sometimes he rolls the dice on all stars whose value is lower than normal.
Potential isn't gone when he was the second best hitting catcher in baseball as recently as 2015. We've already seen what a "on" TDA looks like.
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issue with taking a shot on Vogt is Billy Beane doesn't give away cheap talent too often so Vogt likely costs you a guy like Dom Smith. You aren't getting Vogt for some C list prospects. What is in it for the A's? They control him through 2019.
If that's the price then it's an obvious no way since we wouldn't even pay that price for Lucroy who is 3x the player Vogt is. My point on Vogt was as a potential interesting piece if Beane were to have interest in the Jay Bruce sweeps. A couple years ago he dealt for Zobrist with 1 year, sometimes he rolls the dice on all stars whose value is lower than normal.
The A's won 69 games last year. I don't see any reasonable narrative where they decide Jay Bruce for 1 year is someone they value at the expense of Vogt. Bruce for Vogt is a no-brainer... in the Mets favor. The A's are a bad team.
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I wouldn't have a party Conforto for Hamilton but there IS something intriguing about adding Billy Hamilton to this team. I could envision him being a monster at the top of the lineup. He's flawed for sure but he can also be a weapon.
A's are arguably the worst team in baseball talent wise. What do guys like Hendriks, Dull, Coulombe (LOOGY) cost? #Mets
Reyes
Walker
Cespedes
Grandy
AsCab
Duda
TDA
Sure sounds intriguing...
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Hate his idea here. Lol. McCutchen is probably worse defensively in CF than Granderson at this point.
I wouldn't have a party Conforto for Hamilton but there IS something intriguing about adding Billy Hamilton to this team. I could envision him being a monster at the top of the lineup. He's flawed for sure but he can also be a weapon.
I'd love to add some real speed. Not sure if I'd love it for Conforto. I'd have to think on that. Lol.
Hopefully the Mets can get rid of Bruce without having to eat much money. It'll be a tough sell because he hasn't hit 1 WAR in a while and makes $14M (1 WAR goes for $7.5M-$8M now), but maybe Sandy works some magic and we actually get something in return.
For a big-market team with payroll and resource flexibility, Hamilton could be an incredible and devastating weapon, because of his once-in-a-generation baserunning skills. He could be used as a starter on some days.
But on other days -- depending on the matchups -- he could be used offensively in the same way that a closer is used to impact games, in being placed in high-leverage situations as a pinch-runner. Nobody is better at stealing bases. Nobody is better at taking the next 90 feet. The Royals demonstrated the potency of a dangerous baserunner over the last couple of years.
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I'd be interested but not for Conforto. Some package of Lagares, Gselleman, Cecchini, Rivera, ok - but can't give up a potential middle of the order cornerstone.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
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Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
This puts pressure on Washington to make a bold move. I expect to see them linked to Chapman or Jensen along with a possible trade for Archer or Gray.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
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deal looks bad because he went from 120 -> 72 wRC in one year, not because of his corner OF defense.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
When Atlanta traded him to the Cards I was hoping that they would re-sign him in free agency in a deal for like 6 years 90 million. I am very thankful that they didn't because they were lucky to be saved by San Diego for the abomination that is Melvin Upton's contract but they wouldn't get saved twice.
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
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In comment 13240314 ZGiants98 said:
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Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
I see what you're saying, but maybe look at it this way.... It's not just the egregious errors though. It's not getting to a ball that other OFs would get to, or being slow and letting another runner take another base. An extra 7-8 outs and 10 extra bases given up over the course of a season might add up to 0.5 WAR. We might watch the games and not "blame" him for some of the balls that other OFs would get to, but it adds up.
Take a look at how sick Thor's metrics were last year, but also see how he underperformed them with some traditional stats (i think his baa against was really out of whack). Obviously, not mostly Bruce's fault but we can do better out there. I'd much rather keep Granderson and get rid of Bruce since we're trying to win it all next year and he's managed to (despite me expectations to be honest) remain at least OK out there.
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Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
Yeah and Bruce would have hundreds and hundreds of putouts. How many huge mistakes? 5? 10? He has a decent arm. Probably has zero range but how far off is he from the middle guys? Anyways. All good.
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in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
In fairness, Pollock is coming off an entire missed season due to injury and Swanson wasn't quite as well thought of as he is now... more importantly Arizona has a new GM so old asking prices aren't as important as what Mike Hazen might think of Conforto etc.
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in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
Still only played 12 games last season, that's gotta count for something no?
Shops Conforto and Grandy for insane prices and wait for someone to settle for Bruce.
Pollock and McCutchen would be the 2 guys I'd be aggressively trying to "buy low". Conforto/Rosario might be the deal breakers in either case but maybe we get lucky and 1 of those teams is intrigued by a package including Gsellman/Rivera/Cecchini/Nimmo/Smith/Dunn types.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
The Mets were reportedly high on TJ Zeuch before the draft so he might be one to watch (not sure Toronto would give him up) but he was 3-4 starter upside. No Bichette might be a nice get as well. On the Jays actual roster there isn't much in terms or realistic/interesting as far as I can tell
Honestly, he's only a year older than Vogt and much better, lol.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
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when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
Disagree because starting Conforto on the bench is detrimental for his development. He literally tore Vegas a new asshole of the likes Ive never seen after being demoted there last year. We cant send him there again. He needs to start and start every day if he's going to be the guy we are expected to build around going forward. Even at his worst last year, he was still about a league average bat that isn't really all that far off from Bruce anyway. Conforto will be the better player in 2017. We still have guys like Nimmo likely in Vegas that also need to play every day if we get hit by some injuries.
Approx $145.4M at the moment
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
KJ
Flores
Reyes
Veteran catcher (hopefully)
Would be pretty sick IMO.
Especially with TJ Rivera, Nimmo, Cheech, Plawecki, and eventually Smith and Rosario just waiting to be dipped into at Vegas.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
I'm not sure Ty Kelly lasts much longer on the 40 man roster.
KJ
Flores
Reyes
Veteran catcher (hopefully)
Would be pretty sick IMO.
Especially with TJ Rivera, Nimmo, Cheech, Plawecki, and eventually Smith and Rosario just waiting to be dipped into at Vegas.
I also think more likely than not Reyes is more or less the starter at 3b and not Wright
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Kelly was actually pretty impressive but the issue is they likely are going to add more FA's/players via trade so a guy like Kelly is at risk. AAA OF is going to need some bodies one way or another however.
Kelly has options. His 40 man spot is the issue, not his lack of options.
hehe
Would absolutely hate it but maybe they have a plan in place we aren't seeing.
Yup. I think a lot of people still dont realize that. At least on other sites.
@ChrisCotillo
Yankees, Red Sox, Astros and Blue Jays remain the four most active clubs on Carlos Beltran, source tells SB Nation.
If the 2 leaders are within 5% of each other, or the leader has less than 35% there will be a run-off between the top 2.
Lugo- ineligible
Montero-ineligible
*Executive Decision: Tebow is ineligible until post top 20 unless someone can make a valid (non-comedy) argument otherwise.
** Made a special decision to skip to #2 early but all other polls will be 24 hours even in the appearance of a potential blowout. If people continue to vote in poll #1 I will add those votes (change the % should it change)
1) German "Amed" Rosario (SS) 27/29 (93%)
2) Dominic Smith (1B) 10/27 (37%) Run-off vs. Justin Dunn (14/24-58%)
3) Justin Dunn (RHP) 14/28 (50%)
4) Robert Gsellman (RHP) 14/26 (54%)
5) Thomas Szapucki (LHP) 16/29 (55%)
6) Desmond "Dez" Lindsay (OF) 16/26 (62%)
7) Brandon Nimmo (OF) 15/28-54%
8) Gavin Cecchini (SS) 14/29-48%
9) Andres Gimenez (SS) 15/21-71%
10) TJ Rivera (Util) 10/25-40%
11) Tomas Nido (C) 7/27-26%
12) Marcos Molina (SP) 6/27-22%, Run-off with Becerra and Alonso 10/25- 40%
13) Peter Alonso (1B) 10/21-48%
14) Wuilmer Becerra (OF) 16/24-67%
15) Gabriel Ynoa (RHP) 9/26-35%, Runoff with Evans 11/14- 79%
16) Merandy Gonzalez (RHP) 6/23-26%, Runoff with Carpio 12/20-60%
17) Anthony Kay (LHP) 8/23-35%, runoff with Carpio 10/19-53%
18) Luis Carpio (SS) 10/23- 43%
19) Josh Smoker (LHP) 13/21-62%
20) Ali Sanchez (C) 5/16-31%, runoff with 11/18-58%
21) Phil Evans (Util) 13/22-59%
22) PJ Conlon (LHP) 12/20-60%
23) Ricky Knapp 5/24-21%, Runoff with Harol Gonzalez 11/20-55%
24) Chris Flexen 3/17-18%, runoff with Harol Gonzalez 7/11-64%
25) Harol Gonzalez 8/16-50%
26) Ricardo Cespedes 3/15-20%, run-off with Simon 8/15-53%
27) Jake Simon (LHP) 5/14-36%
28) Nabil Crismatt (RHP) 3/15-20%, runoff with Church 13/18-72%
29) Kevin McGowan (RHP) 7/19-37%
30) Andrew Church (RHP) 5/22-23%, runoff with Oswalt/Planck 43%
31) Corey Oswalt (RHP) 4/18-22%, runoff with Tiberi 7/50-50%, advances due to previous poll vote count
32) Paul Sewald (RHP) 4/17-24%, runoff with Tiberi 8/15-53%
33) Blake Tiberi (3B) 2/13-15%, Runoff with Thompson 7/12- 58%
34) Cameron Planck (RHP) 6/14-43%
35) Gregory Guerrero (SS) 6/14-43%
This may be the most I've ever agreed with you on a topic lol.
Trading Granderson would really surprise me given the fact he's basically a team spokesman. Add in the fact that trading Granderson means they feel comfortable with Lagares/Conforto in CF with Nimmo being your "insurance"? 1 insanely injury prone "okay" player, one questionable glove in CF and an injury prone guy we don't know much about? That said I'd trade them both if the return were enough. If it were some grand plan for Fowler it would make more sense.
Shops Conforto and Grandy for insane prices and wait for someone to settle for Bruce.
A+ Agree 100%
Let's trade Rosario, Smith, Gsellman, and Conforto for Trout. We can then trade Bruce and Granderson for prospects to help replenish the farm. I know it's a pie in the sky type scenario but would love to see Sandy do something uncharacteristically aggressive with Trout or possibly golds most.
Lineup
Nimmo
Cabrera
Wright
Trout
Cespedes
Duda
Walker
d'Arnaud
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
Let's trade Rosario, Smith, Gsellman, and Conforto for Trout. We can then trade Bruce and Granderson for prospects to help replenish the farm. I know it's a pie in the sky type scenario but would love to see Sandy do something uncharacteristically aggressive with Trout or possibly golds most.
Lineup
Nimmo
Cabrera
Wright
Trout
Cespedes
Duda
Walker
d'Arnaud
There is no way you are getting Trout for that package come on.
Hows Vic Black doing ;)
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
100% not an anti-Sandy thing at all but I have a feeling we will be underwhelmed when it comes to a Bruce return. As I noted previously his market wasn't even all that hot when he was putting up big offensive numbers with teams in a pennant race. I have a feeling some are "overrating" 30 homers. I'd love to be wrong but from everything I've read/heard from people I respect the opinion of the Mets will likely take a bit of a loss on a Bruce trade unless it's a salary swap type of move.
Assuming draft pick comp stays, a first rounder for him next offseason is a massive, massive get. Multiple first rounders allow the farm to be replenished. More importantly the pool money could allow you to go WAY overslot for a stud prospect later in the first. Risky gamble, but one being floated as a not so bad fall back.
If the prices for Bruce stink right now, why would anyone give up a first rounder to sign him next year? I havn't seen a reason to assume he's going to be any better in 2017 now that he's older.
IMO, we need to trade Bruce this offseason to get some salary relief in order to work on the bullpen and upgrade elsewhere. Paying $13M to our 4th or 5th best OF is a misallocation of resources IMO.
I think we'd be able to get a team to take most of his salary or maybe get another player back that has some salary but might fit us better.
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mostly on the big picture stuff Dan. lol. We always got hung up on nit picky stuff. Anwyays, totally agree.
Hows Vic Black doing ;)
Got destroyed by injuries. I will never change my stance that he did enough that year with us that he earned a spot on the roster the following year (prior to the all the injuries) lol. You are obsessed though.
Most of what you said is fair/valid but Jay Bruce doesn't sell a SINGLE ticket c'mon lol
Good (though I think it's more likely than not Lugo ends up a reliever). Lugo and Gsellman represent the Mets only real SP depth at the moment unless you believe in Ynoa or Montero and I don't.
Yup. At least ESPN is now citing OPS in a batting line when a hitter comes to bat. I think it helps a little but SNY and others dont even do that yet. Its crazy.
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The Mets are not considering Gsellman or Lugo for bullpen roles. If they dont make the team as starters out of spring training they will be going to Vegas to start.
Good (though I think it's more likely than not Lugo ends up a reliever). Lugo and Gsellman represent the Mets only real SP depth at the moment unless you believe in Ynoa or Montero and I don't.
Agreed. Im much higher on Ynoa than Montero though as a maybe a ground ball specialist. Still number 5 upside. Im intrigued to see how Flexen, Church, and Molina do/move in 2017 (not saying Im psyched about these guys only that their "next"). They are probably the next line of depth coming in the next year or two. Szapucki/Dunn after that obviously.
"Ben Berkon @BenBerkon 16s16 seconds ago
@WexlerRules Agreed. There is no reason to rush Wheeler when Mets have Gsell and Lugo."
+1. Even better sending him to Bing to keep him close and out of Vegas.
I will say while I admit I was not high enough on Gsellman there were many who were high on him. Church/Ynoa don't really have anyone pumping up their stuff. Church was 88-91 when Jeff P saw him (was pretty horrid in A+ in a very SSS) and Ynoa is what he is.
Forget the FIP. He threw 35 innings striking out 22, for the season 78 k's over 95.2 innings. In conjunction with his "meh" velocity his era had people a bit too excited. Gsellman was still throwing 91-93 even prior to 2016. Church isn't all that young for a guy you are hoping to have a velocity spike (22).
Ynoa is what he is, a guy who throws a straight solid velocity FB with not much else. 78 k's over 154.1 innings solid ground ball rate or not generally does NOT play as an MLB starter.
All three of those have already experienced success at the major league level. This has devolved into something else now so I'm just going to bow out. Lol.
Pundits generally aren't changing their view much on "meh" velocity guys without much projection. 6'2 190 88-92 on the FB isn't much to dream on.
20. Andrew Church, RHP
Height: 6'2", Weight: 200 lbs.
DOB: 8/7/94 (22)
Acquired: 2nd round, 2013 Draft (Basic High School, Nevada)
Bats/Throws: R/R
2016: Columbia (Low-A): 9 G (9 GS), 56.2 IP, 38 H, 16 R, 14 ER (2.22 ERA), 10 BB, 52 K / St. Lucie (High-A): 6 G (6 GS), 35.0 IP, 31 H, 16 R, 14 ER (3.60 ERA), 14 H, BB, 22 K / Las Vegas (Triple-A): 1 G (1 GS), 4.0 IP, 7 H, 3 R, 3 ER (6.75 ERA), 1 BB, 4 K
The saga of Andrew Church has been a relatively strange one, and 2016 was no different. After falling off the radar thanks to injuries, Church resurfaced in 2016 and was highly effective in both Columbia, where he spent the bulk of the season, and St. Lucie. His fastball sits 89-91 MPH and touches as high as 95 MPH. Since being drafted, he has sidelined his curveball and instead replaced it with a slider that is more effective thanks to his arm slot. He rounds out his pitching repertoire with a changeup that is still very raw and is a work in progress.
Greg says:
We had largely written off the former second-round pick after he had floundered in extended spring training and short season ball since being drafted. He burst back onto the scene this year, dominating Low-A and holding his own in High-A. He features a fastball that can touch 95, but is probably more of a low 90s offering. His slider appears to be an above average offering, so that combination should get him to at least Double-A as a starter. If his changeup catches up to the slider, and the fastball settles in the higher range hes shown, it could be an exciting profile.
Lukas says:
Church reached Triple-A and posted good peripherals in his four-inning sample, but the rest of his minor league resume remains unimpressive. He also has yet to throw more than 100 innings in a season, making him a likely reliever at the next level. Close to major league ready pitching has some value though, and maybe Dan Warthen makes things play up.
Steve says:
I didnt really know what to make of Church when the Mets drafted him in the second-round years ago, and to be honest, I still dont know what to make of him. Despite solid numbers in 2016, I feel a bit pessimistic on Church. Nothing that he throws is exactly plus, his is still raw, and its not exactly like the right-hander has a track record. Still, he will be entering his age 22 season, and has time to refine his secondary pitches.
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Pirates would 100% balk at that. McCutchen is their "Wright", his deal is team friendly and they have young talent at SS. It would start with Conforto or Matz.
On the cheap I'd do it but overall I agree. I'd certainly do Bruce/Nimmo/Cecchini (which amounts to Nimmo/Cecchini but the Pirates would not.
There is some thought he was struggling so badly at the plate that he took it into the field with him (who knows how true it is) but it's more likely he simply is a step slower. On the cheap it would be a no-brainer decline and all (incredible contract) but more likely than not he'd be in a corner in your best alignment.
Also how are the owners giving this up if they aren't getting an international draft?
Some additional details on new CBA coming, starting with this: A player no longer can receive a qualifying offer more than once.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Team that loses QO free agent will get pick only if player signs contract of $50M+. Pick it gets will depend upon that teams market size.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Club that signs QO free agent, if it exceeds luxury-tax threshold, will lose 2nd-rounder, 5th-rounder and $1M in intl bonus money.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
Club that signs QO free agent, if it does not exceed luxury-tax threshold, will lose 3rd-rounder.
@Ken_Rosenthal 2h2 hours ago
And on schedule: Starting in 2018, season will start mid-week, helping create extra off-days in schedule.
@Ken_Rosenthal 1h1 hour ago
Owners also had concerns about creating problems with extra spot from April-Aug. in order to fix problem in Sept. Topic could be revisited.
@Joelsherman1 1h1 hour ago Manhattan, NY
Heard 1 other interesting CBA detail: new MLB players will be banned from using smokeless tobacco, those already playing grandfathered in
Michael BaronVerified account
@michaelgbaron
Jacob deGrom will meet members of the media tomorrow 10:45 AM at Citi Field. There isnt any other information. So, I wonder if thats good.
It's just a promo for the Mets, Baron's tweet set off alarms but it's nothing either way.
I blame Michael Baron! lol
That would be some lineup.
@Ken_Rosenthal
Sources: #Pirates targeting #Nationals minor-league OFer Victor Robles, 19, in McCutchen talks, as they did in July. Will want more as well.
Orioles seem to have interest in granderson but not really Bruce #orioles #mets
Walker "will be 100% for ST", on David "we hope he will be" ready to go
+1. I saw that, felt he was a bounceback candidate because of it.
I'd like to see them sign Chapman or acquire a closer, but I know that's a long shot. With uncertainty around Familia I'd hate to see the back of the bullpen go from a strength to a weakness so quickly.
Maybe deal Bruce for a young-ish closer type.
they don't have to be. just a suggestion. the Mets seem inclined to trade Bruce and they need a bullpen guy.
if they trade a prospect for one, great, the point wasn't getting rid of Bruce, it was acquiring bullpen help.
I don't care so much how they do it.
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not as obsessed with Granderson or Bruce for a reliever as some people. Why can't they trade either one for prospects and use surplus (or FA) for a reliever? Why must both issues be corrected within the same move?
they don't have to be. just a suggestion. the Mets seem inclined to trade Bruce and they need a bullpen guy.
if they trade a prospect for one, great, the point wasn't getting rid of Bruce, it was acquiring bullpen help.
I don't care so much how they do it.
PJ,
100% wasn't aimed at you. I just see people mentioning a ton of relievers for one of them (I'm not against a reliever). Just not sure why it has to all go down in one move. You add surplus somewhere else and add a different reliever it's the same idea. Also some of the relievers being mentioned are pretty unrealistic. 1 year of Granderson isn't buying you 5 years of Givens etc.
I just know the Mets could use bullpen help, even more if Familia is suspended.
Chapman is the name I know is available, so I'd seriously consider him, but 100M (ballpark #'s I'd heard for his next contract) seems too much for a closer, but I'd rather get a guy like Chapman for just money than trade assets for someone lesser.
Link - ( New Window )
(expectation is the Pirates do NOT get Robles in the deal).
"Key changes involve the qualifying offers clubs can make to their former players after they become free agents the figure was $17.2 million this year. If a player turns down the offer and signs elsewhere, his new team forfeits an amateur draft pick, which usually had been in the first round under the old deal.
Under the new rules, a player can receive a qualifying offer only once in his career and will have 10 days to consider it instead of seven. A club signing a player who declined a qualifying offer would lose its third-highest amateur draft pick if it is a revenue-sharing receiver, its second- and fifth-highest picks (plus a loss of $1 million in its international draft pool) if it pays luxury tax for the just-ended season, and its second-highest pick (plus $500,000 in the international draft pool) if it is any other team.
A club losing a free agent who passed up a qualifying offer would receive an extra selection after the first round of the next draft if the player signed a contract for $50 million or more and after competitive balance round B if under $50 million. However, if that team pays luxury tax, the extra draft pick would drop to after the fourth round."
Has OF experience as well
Link - ( New Window )
Following
Mark BowmanVerified account
@mlbbowman
The Braves have traded RHP John Gant, RHP Chris Ellis and INF Luke Dykstra to the Cardinals for LHP Jaime Garcia.
Has OF experience as well Link - ( New Window )
It's about time they started acting like a team that's in the market size they are. Hopefully the impetus to get a stadium deal done (esp now that Wolf is out of the way)
(expectation is the Pirates do NOT get Robles in the deal).
Not sure how mats convince them if a package without Robles. Interesting if true.
I don't think I could stomach giving up the pick for fowler or Desmond and I am not sure that Carlos Gomez is an option unless his market craters
I don't think I could stomach giving up the pick for fowler or Desmond and I am not sure that Carlos Gomez is an option unless his market craters
I really dont see the point of it barring an emergency type of situation. Reyes is almost as old as Granderson and Granderson just proved he can still play there at least decently (and has played almost his whole career there). You have a gold glover in Lagares backing him up and Nimmo has played a bunch of CF in his life (whether he's average/below average or what).
Just go with Granderson and Lagares and baby Grandy. Hopefully Nimmo keeps hitting and can take over at some point.
1.) Reyes 3B
2.) Granderson CF
3.) Cespedes LF
4.) Duda/Flores 1B
5.) Walker
6.) Conforto RF
7.) Cabrera SS
8.) TDA/Suzuki
1.) Thor
2.) deGrom
3.) Matz
4.) Harvey
5.) Gsellman
1.) Familia
2.) Melancon
3.) Reed
4.) Smoker
5.) Blevins
6.) Robles
7.) Sewald
1.) Lagares
2.) KJ
3.) Wright
4.) Flores/Duda
5.) TDA/Suzuki
AAA.
1.) Lugo
2.) Ynoa
3.) Nimmo
4.) TJ Rivera
5.) Rosario
6.) Cecchini
7.) Smith
8.) Plawecki
AA.
1.) Wheeler
Melancon 10-11 Mil
Suzuki 7 mil
Blevins 7 mil
KJ 2 mil
Minus Bruce 11 mil
Payroll ends up around 160 mil.
I dont doubt what you're saying but 10 million for a LOOGY would be absurd!!! lol. Melancon I could see if there's a bidding war for sure. I'd still offer him 4/45 and see what happens.
I know Reed has closing experience, but I think he's better in that 8th inning role and the last time he was relied on as the primary closer he wasn't very good. In fact when you look at his stats, his peripherals were never as good as they were this past one plus seasons with the Mets.
not much worse to demoralize a team than a closer blowing leads.
I'd make closer a priority and then if/when Familia comes back it's a good problem to have. I assume you watched the playoffs, both teams in the WS used their BP's a lot and closers unconventionally (Miller at least).
I know Reed has closing experience, but I think he's better in that 8th inning role and the last time he was relied on as the primary closer he wasn't very good. In fact when you look at his stats, his peripherals were never as good as they were this past one plus seasons with the Mets.
not much worse to demoralize a team than a closer blowing leads.
I'd make closer a priority and then if/when Familia comes back it's a good problem to have. I assume you watched the playoffs, both teams in the WS used their BP's a lot and closers unconventionally (Miller at least).
Yeah and almost all of those teams acquired bullpen help later in the year/deadline. Cubs didnt have Chapman. Indians didnt have Miller. Nationals didn't have Melancon. Familia is probably looking at a 30 day suspension. Is it really the end of the world if one of the best relievers in all of baseball last year who has over 100 saves closes for us in April?? Is it really that awful if Robles/Smoker got their feet a little wet in big moments early?? Familia isn't getting suspended for the year. lol. It's also a LONG season.
I just wouldn't minimize it.
I just wouldn't minimize it.
Ok, well we have 2 of the of the top 8 relievers in baseball last year. Familia isn't going anywhere. Forgive me if I dont freak out if Reed has to close out some games against the Marlins, Reds, and Padres in April!
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
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and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
I think you can win the WS with the Mets rotation and lineup, but take Familia out of the pen and BP becomes a weakness IMO.
I'm not saying do something drastic, but I'd not be comfortable going in to the season for an undertermined amout of time without Familia and only the players on today's roster in the pen.
Quote:
In comment 13243691 pjcas18 said:
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and from the sounds of it getting better, I'd much rather win the division than the WC (obvious?) and I'm not freaking out, simply saying I do have urgency around the bullpen and my response isn't "whatever, if Reed has to close while Familia is suspended he will or we'll find someone"
I'd make it a priority, maybe the biggest priority right now.
Yeah yeah... Same song and dance last year and we finished with second best bullpen in baseball. Worrying about the pen is kind of your thang. ;)
I think you can win the WS with the Mets rotation and lineup, but take Familia out of the pen and BP becomes a weakness IMO.
I'm not saying do something drastic, but I'd not be comfortable going in to the season for an undertermined amout of time without Familia and only the players on today's roster in the pen.
Ok but why are you talking about a WS with Familia off the roster? There is literally zero chance of that happening unless he's injured. Plus with as volatile as relievers can be season to season and how easily they can get injured it might actually make MORE sense to go after a guy at the deadline like the Cubs, Indians, and Nationals did. Sandy's added Clippard, Reed, and Salas at the deadline and Blevins in Spring Training. He seems to continually look for guys and isnt afraid to make deals later.
and with the Nationals proving 2015 was an anomaly and IMO they're better than that and 2016 is more the reality for them and the division is the preferred way to the playoffs I don't think the Mets have 30 days to roll the dice on a closer.
that's what I meant by the Mets can win the WS with their rotation and lineup, but not BP without Familia. I was suggesting to get there.
Look at his stats and his 2016 season is such an outlier, with relievers being so fungible you have to hope it's not an anomaly but the norm with him going forward. I like him, but I'd hate to put my eggs all in that basket.
I'm not saying the Mets don't try it, Reed has been great as a Met, but I prefer him in the 8th inning role.
I'd love to be able to shorten games. Don't rely on starters to HAVE to go 7 innings.
IMO the Mets need another premier bullpen arm to do it.
Yep, could be more could be less. No clue how MLB goes on this.
Didn't care for him going into 16 and just as concerned going into 17. Most likely guy on team to underperform his salary. Just a personal opinion.
Signed with Seattle, 2 year deal
Didn't care for him going into 16 and just as concerned going into 17. Most likely guy on team to underperform his salary. Just a personal opinion.
Cool!
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Rzepczynski too. Good LOOGY. Expected to settle for about 10 mil/2 years
Signed with Seattle, 2 year deal
Yup. Was citing what he was expected to sign for. 10 mil for 2 years. Was just saying he's a pretty damn good LOOGY and isn't signing for a kings ransom.
You dont just become that dominant and that elite for nearly 80 innings unless something was really clicking. Not really going out on a limb saying he wont be "as" dominant though IMO.
So you were wrong but your doubling down on 2017? Nice! I like it! hehe.
Except that none of these relievers are cheap in the offseason anymore. Hell, Dan's predicting 10 mil per for Blevins! That's nuts!
Juan Centeno (27)
Steve Clevenger (31)
Hank Conger (29)
A.J. Ellis (36)
Chris Gimenez (34)
Ryan Hanigan (36)
Nick Hundley (33)
Chris Iannetta (34)
Jeff Mathis (34)
Dioner Navarro (33)
Brayan Pea (35)
A.J. Pierzynski (40)
Wilson Ramos (29)
Wilin Rosario (28)
Jarrod Saltalamacchia (32)
Geovany Soto (34)
Kurt Suzuki (33)
Josh Thole (30)
Matt Wieters (31)
Bobby Wilson (34)
lol. It's kind of crazy too because his second half of 2015 also 2.34 FIP, 9 K/9, 2.25 BB/9! He's been good for a looooong time now.
Hey, I said 7. I know the market has gotten crazy. I was actually deferring to you.
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me, Blevins contract is going to dwarf 2 years 10 million. I'm not saying he's going to get some monster deal but I'm expecting an AAV MUCH closer to 10 per than 5.
Hey, I said 7. I know the market has gotten crazy. I was actually deferring to you.
I wasn't knocking what you said but I think 7 is still going to be low. I'm predicting either a very high AAV like 2 years 18, or 3 years 21-ish.
Jesus. Sale on the Nationals would scare the shit out of me. Could care less about McCutchen.
And if he's closing it has a domino effect and weakens the 8th inning, which in turn weakens the 7th inning.
the Mets need a bullpen arm with Familia still here, though a lesser one, without him for an undetermined amount of time, it's more critical to get someone and not a JAG, a back of the bullpen guy.
now I have beaten this horse to death. I'm not stressing about it, not clamoring for it, or any other extreme anyone wants to apply to it, but when I'm evaluating the roster the hole without Familia is glaring IMO.
Anything else would be irresponsible.
When Mejia was suspended, having Familia worked out perfectly, but that domino effect meant not having an 8th inning guy and cost assets to get Clippard and Reed.
Lol, maybe I've always misunderstood the meaning of "lead".
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Nationals and Braves part of 5 teams in "lead" in potential Sale deal per @JonHeyman
Lol, maybe I've always misunderstood the meaning of "lead".
Supposedly half the league is bidding
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But why would they need Bruce at the expense of Gattis? Gattis 32 homers, .345 wOBA, 119 wRC+, Bruce 33 homers .340 wOBA 111 wRC+ and Gattis can catch, play OF, DH play 1b. Houston also lost Castro, now they are getting rid of their other catcher?
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I agree it seems far fetched though.
But why would they need Bruce at the expense of Gattis? Gattis 32 homers, .345 wOBA, 119 wRC+, Bruce 33 homers .340 wOBA 111 wRC+ and Gattis can catch, play OF, DH play 1b. Houston also lost Castro, now they are getting rid of their other catcher?
They would really have to love Wheeler, be dreaming on him reclaiming his form. I agree, it doesn't make much sense.
He played 55 games at C last season and they had Castro as the starter. Gattis actually was 18/90 in terms of pitch framing. He's expected to catch a lot more this season with Castro gone.
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Agree. Makes sense.
His value is very low and based on recent history they'll use 8 - 12 starting pitchers this year.
His value is highest with the Mets.
Someone like Lugo I could see them trade because although they will need him as a starter at some point, unless you think his 2016 is a floor, he's probably at his peak value.
Most of Lugo's peripherals outshined his FIP unlike Gsellman who was more inline across the board.
His value is very low and based on recent history they'll use 8 - 12 starting pitchers this year.
His value is highest with the Mets.
Someone like Lugo I could see them trade because although they will need him as a starter at some point, unless you think his 2016 is a floor, he's probably at his peak value.
Most of Lugo's peripherals outshined his FIP unlike Gsellman who was more inline across the board.
PJ,
I agree with you however (and admittedly I'm not an expert in spin rate) but Law cited Lugo's spin rate as to why he didn't think there was a big gap between Gsellman (who he likes) and Lugo. I do agree however that Lugo wasn't quite as good as his era.
Cool. What did she say?
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mom is also extremely nice on twitter (she contacted me not vice versa!)
Cool. What did she say?
She basically sometimes chimes in with information. For example, when Lugo was moved to the pen and was pitching well I tweeted out some numbers and she responded saying they had him throw his CB more (which he lost his feel for) and had found it back in the pen. Little things like that. Gant's dad was really nice too.
Small move if they sign him, but he can fill so many needs and has some good at-bats.
Wouldn't want him as a starter, but nice bench bat.
Small move if they sign him, but he can fill so many needs and has some good at-bats.
Wouldn't want him as a starter, but nice bench bat.
Supposedly both sides have interest but haven't discussed a contract yet.
I agree with Jon Heyman, but I'd rather hear what Adam Rubin thinks, I think Rubin knows the Mets better
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I cant at all. wRC+ of 114 against righties for his career. Good hitter and has been playing good D the last few years. Another perfect platoon candidate for TDA. Good find.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
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just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
I'm not high on Wieters given his likely price. Oft-injured, Boras client, terrible pitch framer. If you told me he could be had for say 3 years at his rough actual value... say 12-13 per I'd probably do it but that would be my absolute max. No way more than 3 years, he's really trending the wrong way (note the Orioles didn't even want him back and they won what? nearly 90 games? and they don't have a replacement on the roster). If the market fell to the point he took a "fair" deal I'd take him but otherwise I don't really like him. Overrated thanks to his previous prospect status. I don't think most people realize he's 31 this season.
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In comment 13244397 DanMetroMan said:
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just looking at potential catchers (fully realizing we likely aren't adding a stud). My first choice would be exploring a deal for Cervelli but the Pirates sound like they are pivoting vs. blowing it up. My second choice would probably be buying low on Derek Norris, I'd make the call on Vogt (pitch framing issues and all). I'd call about Wolters (his versatility is very, very intriguing...C/SS/2b? How rare). I'd make the call to Arizona about both Castillo and SSS anomaly Herrmann. I'd cast a very wide net.
What about Wieters? You don't consider him a stud right? Still too expensive? Or just not what you think the Mets are looking for?
I'm not high on Wieters given his likely price. Oft-injured, Boras client, terrible pitch framer. If you told me he could be had for say 3 years at his rough actual value... say 12-13 per I'd probably do it but that would be my absolute max. No way more than 3 years, he's really trending the wrong way (note the Orioles didn't even want him back and they won what? nearly 90 games? and they don't have a replacement on the roster). If the market fell to the point he took a "fair" deal I'd take him but otherwise I don't really like him. Overrated thanks to his previous prospect status. I don't think most people realize he's 31 this season.
Yeah, I know how old he is, and he went from phenom to jag very quickly.
I just like him better than Vogt if Wieters could be signed to a reasonable deal, Seems like the bulk of the Mets fans on this site seem to want to acquire Vogt and he's a 32/33 year old jag, so is Wieters at this point (slightly younger), but for Wieters it's just money.
I think Beane would want more for Vogt. Would you give him Gsellman for Vogt?
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probably offer up Nimmo for Vogt (Beane liked him previously). Nothing against Nimmo at all but Vogt was 5th in fWAR, 4th in wOBA, 4th in wRC+ the past 2 seasons at his position. He's also a poor pitch framer but he'd still represent an upgrade and he's cheap/cost controlled through any years you would want him.
I think Beane would want more for Vogt. Would you give him Gsellman for Vogt?
Are you insane?
Thing is, and this isn't a Mets knock but there IS a budget and the price between the 2 players is pretty significant so if my choices are more money spent on the pen + Vogt minus Nimmo or committing big money to Wieters at the expense of the pen I'm going with the Vogt option. I already mentioned this but the Orioles not only didn't offer Wieters the QO but they didn't even engage him in extension talks (though there has been some talk they told him if he doesn't find his "big" deal to give them a call. That's pretty damning for a team sans catcher.
This past season Wieters
88 wRC+
.307 wOBA
.165 ISO
(and as I stated a poor pitch framer)
Reportedly looking for 4 years 60 million
Vogt (and again I'm not some massive Vogt proponent) but-
93 wRC+
.305 wOBA
.155 ISO
and will cost a projected 3.7 million which you can walk away from after the year or hold his rights through 2019.
If Wieters falls into a "fair" range I'm in. But 4 years would be really, really dumb.
Jon Heyman @JonHeyman 9m9 minutes ago Jersey City, NJ
rene rivera settles with mets, $1.75M
Switch-hitter with some pop and a decent arm to throw out runners.
I believe you on the pitch framing, but I'm still somewhat skeptical of defensive metrics, so I'm not sure what to believe about pitch framing as a measurable. But regardless I think Wieters is a better fit.
It's like people on here hear the name Vogt and think he's Johnny Bench. He's practically identical to Wieters without the switch hitting.
At this point I feel the Mets have a few year window, I'd overpay short-term while this window is around as opposed to prospects.
Nimmo I'd trade though so if that's all it took for Vogt I wouldn't care, but you know it will wind up Nimmo and Szapucki for Vogt and I'll have to hate the guy.
Jon Heyman @JonHeyman 9m9 minutes ago Jersey City, NJ
rene rivera settles with mets, $1.75M
Like I had mentioned the other day, given the other FA options, this is not a terrible decision. He did a really good job handling our pitchers last year.
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In 2015 he had an awful year with the bat and that is why you are getting that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher and he's graded positively defensively as a catcher every year of his career. He also hits righties better than lefties for his career. Im not saying he's great but I dont think he would be difficult to obtain.
2. Norris
3. Wolters
4. Vogt (depends on the price)
5. Castillo
6. Wieters (his ranking would depend on cost, I'd move him up if he's take 2 years but he's looking for 4)
7. Herrmann (probably sucks but was really impressive in limited time last season)
8. No idea, some guy I haven't thought of/didn't know was available like a Tom Murphy
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is one of the worst pitch framers in baseball (on par with Wieters) and has been worth .5 fWAR the past 2 seasons COMBINED. Not trying to argue with you but I'm not understanding your interest in Suzuki. He's a bad baseball player. Link - ( New Window )
In 2015 he had an awful year with the bat and that is why you are getting that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher and he's graded positively defensively as a catcher every year of his career. He also hits righties better than lefties for his career. Im not saying he's great but I dont think he would be difficult to obtain.
But he was worth 0.6 fWAR during the 2016 season as well (with poor framing numbers) at that point you might as well just hope TDA/Rivera/Plawecki somehow have good seasons. Suzuki has been a league average regular (barely) twice since 2009 (2014 and 2011). If we are going to bring on a guy who "gives away" strikes I'd have to have offense to off-set it and I don't think he brings that.
2015 Matt Wieters played 26 games so to include that as "last 3" is beyond ridiculous no offense. I'm already on record not wanting Wieters but 2016
Wieters 1.7 fWAR
Suzuki 0.6 fWAR
So Wieters was 3 times more valuable over 18 more games played. Suzuki last 3 seasons combined...2.5 fWAR.
Just an idea. Im open to almost everyone.
I don't like it either. He has a pretty slow bat/long swing to begin with. Very odd Long didn't move him away from that. I was hoping he would look into working with Bobby Tewksbary aka "The swing king". Guy is credited with "fixing" both Josh Donaldson and JD Martinez. Matt Joyce has been working with him which apparently is part of the reason the A's gambled on him.
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Im not comparing him to somebody like Wieters but if I was? Wieters hasn't been a 2 WAR player in any of the last 3 years either. 87 wRC+ to 97 wRC+. Wieters is better but not by a whole lot.
2015 Matt Wieters played 26 games so to include that as "last 3" is beyond ridiculous no offense. I'm already on record not wanting Wieters but 2016
Wieters 1.7 fWAR
Suzuki 0.6 fWAR
So Wieters was 3 times more valuable over 18 more games played. Suzuki last 3 seasons combined...2.5 fWAR.
Only looked at it in quick glance. Wasn't really looking at his games. Hasn't been a 2 fWAR player in three years is still worth noting IMO. I already mentioned Suzuki was horrid in 2015 so I dont really get comparing that year or driving it home further.
Said the same thing every single game last year. According to people familiar with the situation he went AGAINST Long's wished (what worked in 2015) the moment he struggled and thought he would be more comfortable going back to worked in college. Moronic if you ask me.
Considering defense he's roughly a Rivera caliber addition. With Rivera back I'd aim higher, younger or not even bother.
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Seems like a nice cheap add?
Considering defense he's roughly a Rivera caliber addition. With Rivera back I'd aim higher, younger or not even bother.
Much better hitter though against righties?
lol.
All good. Im done talking about catchers. We'll see what happens. he
I've read things all the way from retire to DL (so they get the insurance), to the starting 3B.
Obviously you can't count on him, and I think this year's backup plan is better than 2016, but where does the truth lie if there is one on Wright?
I've read things all the way from retire to DL (so they get the insurance), to the starting 3B.
Obviously you can't count on him, and I think this year's backup plan is better than 2016, but where does the truth lie if there is one on Wright?
Sandy said they are "hopeful" Wright will be ready for ST and admitted they don't know what to expect.
The #Nats get their catcher, acquiring Derek Norris of the #Padres
@themainemets
Derek Norris was somehow worse offensively than Travis d'Arnaud in 2016.
Michael Mayer @themainemets 9m9 minutes ago
Michael Mayer Retweeted Michael Mayer
TDA was a better pitch framer too.
LOL, I'm not defending Michal Mayer's tweets, only sharing them.
LOL, I'm not defending Michal Mayer's tweets, only sharing them.
Hey I hope TDA is great, just saying we could have conceivably had both or 2 "lottery tickets"
I haven't given up on TDA yet though, I'm stubborn.
He has to be healthy one of these seasons, right?
New CBA made it a no brainer - timing wasn't a coincidence.
Speaking of CBA. Huge win for Owners, again. Mets hurt by draft pick rule change.
I'd take a flier, hasn't had much MLB success, but throws gas. Not throwing 100 anymore, but still tops 95.
See if Warthen can fix him, he's the kind of reclamation project might be cheap and worth it.
It's funny, when browsing C's Castillo looked to be a great fit but it seemed like there'd be no reason for AZ to move him for a reasonable return, and then they non-tender him. He k's a ton but other than that he's a no-brainer upgrade over Rivera in almost every category. I'd understand them not immediately pouncing if there are better options out there but he'd be a good add.
This. . is it time to give up on TDA? Platoon situation?
Plawecki is not a major league hitter, unfortunately.
I can't see Cespedes sucking that much at age 34-35. As long as he is happy with the organization and the team, he won't let his teammates down.
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Castillo should be a no-brainer at this point, I'd love Tyson Ross as well replacing Dickey/lottery ticket but I'd be shocked
This. . is it time to give up on TDA? Platoon situation?
Plawecki is not a major league hitter, unfortunately.
It's not time to give up on TDA, but it is time to have a legitimate plan B. Going into ST without a better one than Rivera/Plawecki would be negligent.
I can't see Cespedes sucking that much at age 34-35. As long as he is happy with the organization and the team, he won't let his teammates down.
Unfortunately, desire to not let teammates down has little effect on ability to get around on a fastball.
LOL, you should get the power for any negative Plawecki comments.
Backman left the organization back in September, citing that he felt 'disrespected' by the team.
Rubin also reports that Frank Viola and Jack Voigt will remain in their their positions as pitching and hitting coaches.
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Whatever Mets do re: Bruce/Grandy, it sounds like they're positioned to move fairly quickly. Could be a very interesting winter meetings.