Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
but this is a huge move for them. Had they lost him they would be lucky to win a wildcard spot but if at least two out of Thor, Degrom, and Harvey can stay relatively healthy then they are a legit contender.
This puts pressure on Washington to make a bold move. I expect to see them linked to Chapman or Jensen along with a possible trade for Archer or Gray.
deal looks bad because he went from 120 -> 72 wRC in one year, not because of his corner OF defense.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
When Atlanta traded him to the Cards I was hoping that they would re-sign him in free agency in a deal for like 6 years 90 million. I am very thankful that they didn't because they were lucky to be saved by San Diego for the abomination that is Melvin Upton's contract but they wouldn't get saved twice.
I'm not advocating a butcher in LF, RF, or 1B but these are offensive positions IMO and assuming a guy can handle the position half way decent they should be graded on their offense. Just how I look at it.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
RE: RE: RE: The only issue I have with Bruce and his WAR
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
I see what you're saying, but maybe look at it this way.... It's not just the egregious errors though. It's not getting to a ball that other OFs would get to, or being slow and letting another runner take another base. An extra 7-8 outs and 10 extra bases given up over the course of a season might add up to 0.5 WAR. We might watch the games and not "blame" him for some of the balls that other OFs would get to, but it adds up.
Take a look at how sick Thor's metrics were last year, but also see how he underperformed them with some traditional stats (i think his baa against was really out of whack). Obviously, not mostly Bruce's fault but we can do better out there. I'd much rather keep Granderson and get rid of Bruce since we're trying to win it all next year and he's managed to (despite me expectations to be honest) remain at least OK out there.
RE: RE: The only issue I have with Bruce and his WAR
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
Yeah and Bruce would have hundreds and hundreds of putouts. How many huge mistakes? 5? 10? He has a decent arm. Probably has zero range but how far off is he from the middle guys? Anyways. All good.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
In fairness, Pollock is coming off an entire missed season due to injury and Swanson wasn't quite as well thought of as he is now... more importantly Arizona has a new GM so old asking prices aren't as important as what Mike Hazen might think of Conforto etc.
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
Still only played 12 games last season, that's gotta count for something no?
Stewart might be the worst GM in recent memory. Not saying Pollock would be cheap but I'd certainly make a call to Arizona. Pollock is dynamic but about to turn 29, a bad team like Arizona might look to get younger, cheaper, more years of control.
Stewart might be the worst GM in recent memory. Not saying Pollock would be cheap but I'd certainly make a call to Arizona. Pollock is dynamic but about to turn 29, a bad team like Arizona might look to get younger, cheaper, more years of control.
Pollock and McCutchen would be the 2 guys I'd be aggressively trying to "buy low". Conforto/Rosario might be the deal breakers in either case but maybe we get lucky and 1 of those teams is intrigued by a package including Gsellman/Rivera/Cecchini/Nimmo/Smith/Dunn types.
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Cotillo says Blue Jays are reportedly "making a push" to acquire Bruce (again).
The Mets were reportedly high on TJ Zeuch before the draft so he might be one to watch (not sure Toronto would give him up) but he was 3-4 starter upside. No Bichette might be a nice get as well. On the Jays actual roster there isn't much in terms or realistic/interesting as far as I can tell
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
Disagree because starting Conforto on the bench is detrimental for his development. He literally tore Vegas a new asshole of the likes Ive never seen after being demoted there last year. We cant send him there again. He needs to start and start every day if he's going to be the guy we are expected to build around going forward. Even at his worst last year, he was still about a league average bat that isn't really all that far off from Bruce anyway. Conforto will be the better player in 2017. We still have guys like Nimmo likely in Vegas that also need to play every day if we get hit by some injuries.
Nimmo is essentially my 5th OF even though I likely send him to Vegas to start. Somebody like Ty Kelly can be on the ML roster as the 5th guy for pinch hitting, ect. until and an injury hits... than Nimmo leapfrogs him and is on the shuttle bus.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
came into 2016 a consensus top 50 prospect in baseball. His season wasn't very good and he's likely a good 4th OF but a guy like that and a lower level lottery ticket wouldn't be a bad haul. Maybe someone like Maese, Perdomo or Palacios (BK kid)
Nimmo is essentially my 5th OF even though I likely send him to Vegas to start. Somebody like Ty Kelly can be on the ML roster as the 5th guy for pinch hitting, ect. until and an injury hits... than Nimmo leapfrogs him and is on the shuttle bus.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
I'm not sure Ty Kelly lasts much longer on the 40 man roster.
Conforto can't start the season on the bench, especially for the likes of Jay Bruce. While Lagares will likely be the 4th OF to start the season, Nimmo will hopefully take that role before the end of the season (although it might be hard because he's an LH). I really liked what I saw from him in limited ABs last year.
If Reyes is healthier and the starter and Wright is on the bench it's still the same difference. He needs a spot. Reyes says he's already preparing to be a super sub so I just listed it that way for now.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
If Reyes is healthier and the starter and Wright is on the bench it's still the same difference. He needs a spot. Reyes says he's already preparing to be a super sub so I just listed it that way for now.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Kelly was actually pretty impressive but the issue is they likely are going to add more FA's/players via trade so a guy like Kelly is at risk. AAA OF is going to need some bodies one way or another however.
Worst case scenario everyone is healthy and he has to be the 5th OF (in name only) over a Ty Kelly to start. As soon as Wright or others go down, we'll need him.
sure if it was mentioned on here but part of Cespedes deal is that he will play exclusively LF unless it's a fill-in situation so for now gotta figures they hold onto Lagares.
Quote:
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
This puts pressure on Washington to make a bold move. I expect to see them linked to Chapman or Jensen along with a possible trade for Archer or Gray.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
Quote:
deal looks bad because he went from 120 -> 72 wRC in one year, not because of his corner OF defense.
He was an abomination. If he had hit to his career averages it still would have been an overpay IMO. Good but not Great player.
When Atlanta traded him to the Cards I was hoping that they would re-sign him in free agency in a deal for like 6 years 90 million. I am very thankful that they didn't because they were lucky to be saved by San Diego for the abomination that is Melvin Upton's contract but they wouldn't get saved twice.
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
Quote:
In comment 13240314 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Problem with that argument is most CO play "only" CO. So if you compare Bruce with other CO he comes out looking unusually bad. It's not as if they are comparing him to SS's.
Yeah I get that but it still comes out being almost like who cares? What's the difference between the 20th guy defensively and 28th if one guy is hitting "much" better offensively. I guess it's just a problem I have with how the metrics are figured. How many opportunities I. A year is Bruce really hurting you? How many egregious errors? Maybe a handful? I don't know... just thinking out loud.
I see what you're saying, but maybe look at it this way.... It's not just the egregious errors though. It's not getting to a ball that other OFs would get to, or being slow and letting another runner take another base. An extra 7-8 outs and 10 extra bases given up over the course of a season might add up to 0.5 WAR. We might watch the games and not "blame" him for some of the balls that other OFs would get to, but it adds up.
Take a look at how sick Thor's metrics were last year, but also see how he underperformed them with some traditional stats (i think his baa against was really out of whack). Obviously, not mostly Bruce's fault but we can do better out there. I'd much rather keep Granderson and get rid of Bruce since we're trying to win it all next year and he's managed to (despite me expectations to be honest) remain at least OK out there.
Quote:
Is that he plays strictly corner OF, maybe a little first base. Basically, he plays non defensive positions where your looking for strictly offense. Defense isn't a big deal. Nobody's looking for an all glove RF who can't hit. This is why I always thought Heywards value was way overvalued.
Hundreds and hundreds of balls get hit to the corner OF spots each year. Does misplaying those balls not hurt the team just because they are in corner OF? Should we diminish Cespedes defensive value and arm just because he will primarily play corner OF?
Anyway, I don't think we disagree too much on Bruce (even if you're a bit more optimistic on our return than I am). Let's ship his ass out of here, get whatever salary relief we can get, and use that money elsewhere.
Yeah and Bruce would have hundreds and hundreds of putouts. How many huge mistakes? 5? 10? He has a decent arm. Probably has zero range but how far off is he from the middle guys? Anyways. All good.
Quote:
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
In fairness, Pollock is coming off an entire missed season due to injury and Swanson wasn't quite as well thought of as he is now... more importantly Arizona has a new GM so old asking prices aren't as important as what Mike Hazen might think of Conforto etc.
Quote:
in a package deal for Pollock... I wonder how much they would have to add?
Last year Atlanta wanted him straight up for Shelby Miller and Arizona said no but gave up a much better package in Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte, and Aaron Blair. Pollock won't come cheap.
Still only played 12 games last season, that's gotta count for something no?
Shops Conforto and Grandy for insane prices and wait for someone to settle for Bruce.
Pollock and McCutchen would be the 2 guys I'd be aggressively trying to "buy low". Conforto/Rosario might be the deal breakers in either case but maybe we get lucky and 1 of those teams is intrigued by a package including Gsellman/Rivera/Cecchini/Nimmo/Smith/Dunn types.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
Comparatively low. Last year we would have probably been talking Thor plus. I'd understand it if they kept him but this does seem like a safer time to move him because another down year and his value plummets when he's 1 year away from FA.
The Mets were reportedly high on TJ Zeuch before the draft so he might be one to watch (not sure Toronto would give him up) but he was 3-4 starter upside. No Bichette might be a nice get as well. On the Jays actual roster there isn't much in terms or realistic/interesting as far as I can tell
Honestly, he's only a year older than Vogt and much better, lol.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
Quote:
when we have a better idea re whether our SPs will be available for October baseball. Yes, that puts more pressure on the guys we have to get us to August in playoff position, but so be it.
I agree.
Injuries are unpredictable. You could trade Granderson and then Cespedes and Bruce get injured and now you are looking to add an OFer. Last year, everyone wanted to trade a starting pitcher and by the end of the season Harvey, Matz, Wheeler and DeGrom were all down.
Unless the payroll has to be cut by order of the Wilponzis, I just go with what they got. Bruce and Grandy will bring more at the deadline anyway.
Disagree because starting Conforto on the bench is detrimental for his development. He literally tore Vegas a new asshole of the likes Ive never seen after being demoted there last year. We cant send him there again. He needs to start and start every day if he's going to be the guy we are expected to build around going forward. Even at his worst last year, he was still about a league average bat that isn't really all that far off from Bruce anyway. Conforto will be the better player in 2017. We still have guys like Nimmo likely in Vegas that also need to play every day if we get hit by some injuries.
Approx $145.4M at the moment
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
KJ
Flores
Reyes
Veteran catcher (hopefully)
Would be pretty sick IMO.
Especially with TJ Rivera, Nimmo, Cheech, Plawecki, and eventually Smith and Rosario just waiting to be dipped into at Vegas.
There's also a bit of a roster issue if we want to bring back KJ (both sides have said they would be interested). I guess KJ technically could be the 5th OF too since Flores and one of Reyes/Wright are already the backup MI. There wont be a lot of spots.
I'm not sure Ty Kelly lasts much longer on the 40 man roster.
KJ
Flores
Reyes
Veteran catcher (hopefully)
Would be pretty sick IMO.
Especially with TJ Rivera, Nimmo, Cheech, Plawecki, and eventually Smith and Rosario just waiting to be dipped into at Vegas.
I also think more likely than not Reyes is more or less the starter at 3b and not Wright
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Ty Kelly is going to be tough to protect, I agree, but I would try to find a way for the reasons you mentioned yesterday. Very little OF depth after Nimmo in AAA. I like Ty Kelly has a pinch hitter actually. Quick bat and hits from both sides.
Kelly was actually pretty impressive but the issue is they likely are going to add more FA's/players via trade so a guy like Kelly is at risk. AAA OF is going to need some bodies one way or another however.
Kelly has options. His 40 man spot is the issue, not his lack of options.
hehe
Would absolutely hate it but maybe they have a plan in place we aren't seeing.