I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
Obviously, Ali is in a completely different ball park in terms of making an impact on civil rights, but Lebron was at the forefront of speaking out on these matters when NBA superstars were generally kind of silent about them.
but in terms of risks taken and anger incurred for his social and political stands, Colin Kaepernik is a lot closer to Ali than LeBron is.
Ali INFURIATED people. He was HATED. Think the pushback Kaepernick has received, x1000. History vindicated Ali, but in the middle of it, he as an intensely polarizing figure.
As far as I can recall, LeBron's most polarizing moment was "I'm taking my talents to South Beach." He's been much more outspoken than Michael Jordan was, and seems to aim for social relevance and leadership in a way that Jordan never did.
Kaepernik isn't a titan in his sport the way Ali was and LeBron is.
Neither Kaepernik nor LeBron has paid anything like the price Ali paid for his refusal to go be drafted.
But still, Kaepernik has come a lot closer to engendering the kind of rage Ali did by taking a political stand.
Thomas's running the Knicks into the ground, his treatment of his (female) subordinates and his treatment of magic are much more reprehensible than his characterization of LeBron.
it does not strike me quite as bad as it was when I first read it, but still, LeBron hasn't had to pay the price or make the difficult statements (as Dane said).
Comparing him to Ali, whose points were defensible, is a bigger insult to Ali than comparing James to him. James is a narcissist on the court but by all accounts an involved, community-minded person off of it. Kaepernick is a dumb fuck who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, whose political stances are juvenile and uninformed.
I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
I was born in 1989 so all I know is what I read in history books. My point wasn't about the comparison, more that it's not really possible to compare any of this shit (or really any history) until the future, so it's an exercise in futility, albeit this seems pretty baseless to begin with. When I made my comment, I was considering how much Ali was hated at the time, and how irrelevant that hate seems today. Which is why I was talking about historical context being impossible to judge in the present day.
It's not about not knowing what Ali did as much as it is more the fact that Lebron is, well, still alive. Who the hell knows what could happen. Obviously he hasn't really left much of a social impact on the sense that Ali has to this respective point in their lives, but Thomas's comment seemed speculative anyway.
He understands his brand has to remain positive to cash in on bigger $$$. So thats what he's doing. I don't think there is much more to. He has a great opportunity and I support much of it, but the sincerity doesn't seem to be there.
Cassius Clay, on the other hand, made statements and demonstrated in ways that changed both his life and the world around him. There will never be another like him.
I don't like IT, but he is not saying that LeBron has created the social impact Ali did. He's saying that LeBron could, given his global celebrity and his impact on the sports world. That's all.
I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
I was born in 1989 so all I know is what I read in history books. My point wasn't about the comparison, more that it's not really possible to compare any of this shit (or really any history) until the future, so it's an exercise in futility, albeit this seems pretty baseless to begin with. When I made my comment, I was considering how much Ali was hated at the time, and how irrelevant that hate seems today. Which is why I was talking about historical context being impossible to judge in the present day.
It's not about not knowing what Ali did as much as it is more the fact that Lebron is, well, still alive. Who the hell knows what could happen. Obviously he hasn't really left much of a social impact on the sense that Ali has to this respective point in their lives, but Thomas's comment seemed speculative anyway.
I am also too young; I was born in the 70's, but guess I know enough people and have spoken to enough to get a sense of Ali's impact (what to speak of just reading up on him). We're in the same boat. Your point about possibility is a good one. He still has a chance to do something. But still, I think that the real difference is our *times* vs. Ali's *times* and how different the world it. He had much more to risk, and did! And the world had much to change; we've come so far since the 50's. Most "stands" nowadays seem to involve risk-free social media chorus-joining.
He understands his brand has to remain positive to cash in on bigger $$$. So thats what he's doing. I don't think there is much more to. He has a great opportunity and I support much of it, but the sincerity doesn't seem to be there.
Cassius Clay, on the other hand, made statements and demonstrated in ways that changed both his life and the world around him. There will never be another like him.
What exactly does Lebron have to do to prove how genuine his philanthropic dealings are? He recently sent 1,100 kids to college with $41m of his own money (yeah I know he'll get tax breaks). He's in a great position to help the community, and it seems that he does a great job of giving back.
Kaepernick is a dumb fuck who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, whose political stances are juvenile and uninformed.
Well that statement alone is more ignorant than anything Kaepernick has ever done or said so...where does that put you? Let me guess, you're one of those "if you don't like America you can get your ass up and leave" type guys?
Let me ask you this...what makes Kaepernick's stances "uninformed" and "juvenile" - are you saying this because he's a black guy with an afro...or do you have any concrete evidence to support your claim?
Kaepernick pretty much has peacefully protested and has made statements regarding social injustice - and oh yeah - has donated 1M to communities in need - based out of his own jersey sales and his own money.
Would you see this donation is juvenile and uninformed? Should these communities not accept this money because it's tainted with a guy who *gasp* wouldn't stand for the anthem? Gimme a break man. What Kaepernick is doing is 10X less than Ali - yet Ali is beloved. Kaepernick is hated because this country has a racism and intolerance problem...that pretty much sums it up.
Kaepernick pretty much has peacefully protested and has made statements regarding social injustice - and oh yeah - has donated 1M to communities in need - based out of his own jersey sales and his own money.
Would you see this donation is juvenile and uninformed? Should these communities not accept this money because it's tainted with a guy who *gasp* wouldn't stand for the anthem? Gimme a break man. What Kaepernick is doing is 10X less than Ali - yet Ali is beloved. Kaepernick is hated because this country has a racism and intolerance problem...that pretty much sums it up.
It's juvenile to wear socks with pig cops on them.
It's juvenile to not vote because you don't know your local politics and yet want a world stage to lecture everyone else.
You can do good things and also be juvenile in your overall approach.
to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
people like yourself, Boomer Esiason, other blowhards who have come out against Kaepernick are a bigger part of the problem than the protest itself. Ignorant thinking and one sided bullshit reasoning will get the conversation absolutely nowhere.
don't expect me to take your stance on police violence seriously. Cracking bacon jokes and hating police because they made you pour out your six pack is the stuff of 17 year olds. Likewise, mounting a half-assed defense of the legacy of Fidel Castro to a first-generation Cuban screams undergrad sociology major. If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to take advantage of the platform your celebrity offers you to push for social change, be serious. Just because you want to ascribe wisdom to a guy for saying in vague and general terms something you agree with in equally vague and general terms doesn't mean the rest of us must follow suit.
to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
don't expect me to take your stance on police violence seriously. Cracking bacon jokes and hating police because they made you pour out your six pack is the stuff of 17 year olds. Likewise, mounting a half-assed defense of the legacy of Fidel Castro to a first-generation Cuban screams undergrad sociology major. If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to take advantage of the platform your celebrity offers you to push for social change, be serious. Just because you want to ascribe wisdom to a guy for saying in vague and general terms something you agree with in equally vague and general terms doesn't mean the rest of us must follow suit.
I'm not saying you need to follow suit...nobody needs or should be forced to follow suit. It's completely ignorant, and pretty much I can tell racist...for you to call him this uninformed juvenile asshole.
with the pig socks whatsoever. So Kaep is some asshole for wearing pig socks...yet cops can't be held accountable for being just flat out racist assholes?
to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
If your default when someone criticizes Castro is "hospitals and schools" you're not oozing wisdom. Hitler built the autobahn, the world was still a better place when he died. To millions of people in Cuba and elsewhere Castro is on par.
some people have about cops being these perfect human beings saving the streets everyday is nonsense. Yes, lots of them are good, hard working americans who do their jobs. Others are complete assholes who would find nothing more pleasurable than locking up a person of color for no reason. Thus...Kaepernick's protest and overall point.
to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
It's not 'ignorant' to say he didn't know enough about Castro to use him as a medium to make a political point. Obviously and ironically, you brandish about that word like it's verbal correctness. It's not. You're wrong. Get over it.
don't expect me to take your stance on police violence seriously. Cracking bacon jokes and hating police because they made you pour out your six pack is the stuff of 17 year olds. Likewise, mounting a half-assed defense of the legacy of Fidel Castro to a first-generation Cuban screams undergrad sociology major. If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to take advantage of the platform your celebrity offers you to push for social change, be serious. Just because you want to ascribe wisdom to a guy for saying in vague and general terms something you agree with in equally vague and general terms doesn't mean the rest of us must follow suit.
I'm not saying you need to follow suit...nobody needs or should be forced to follow suit. It's completely ignorant, and pretty much I can tell racist...for you to call him this uninformed juvenile asshole.
Allow me to revise my statement. YOU are an ignorant piece of shit. Fuck you. You know nothing about me but apparently you think you can glean enough from my condemnation of a spoiled twit like Kaepernick to judge me a racist.
This is why cheap accusations of racism don't work anymore
Because people will call the racist claimer a twat and tell them to go fuck themselves?
I think it goes to show you can't discuss pretty much any subject without one side or both sides getting incredibly emotional and one side or both sides trying to find anyway to have a reason to ignore the other side.
And find threads with low intelligence posters talking about CP ponderous. But to make the leap to racism from Dunedin's series of posts here tells us far more about ryankeane's twat than anything else.
Because people will call the racist claimer a twat and tell them to go fuck themselves?
I think it goes to show you can't discuss pretty much any subject without one side or both sides getting incredibly emotional and one side or both sides trying to find anyway to have a reason to ignore the other side.
Echo chambers fucking rule.
No, because people are called racist for nothing more than criticizing a person they deem immature and stupid.
the checklist as a picture perfect spokesperson. CK doesn't have to be well versed across every civil rights matter, especially when I'd wager most younger folks don't know the full scale of Castro's atrocities. It does not mean the issue he's trying to bring attention to isn't still there.
Dunedin clearly isn't racist. But both parties use a term they like in order to refuse to acknowledge any point the other may make. It's a great way of avoiding an actual discussion.
Kaepernick is very stupid IMO - doesn't mean he doesn't have some shred of a point.
we don't dismiss their cause because they are stupid; that would be the ad-hominem fallacy. But they are still stupid.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
is that CK spent time with kids, teaching them how to properly interact with police, better understand the letter of the law, take pride in their heritage, and people freak out that he's running a black panther camp, as if he's militarizing them.
as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
Completely disagree. He was getting flack before the shirt and socks.
RE: RE: stupid people can be right about many things
we don't dismiss their cause because they are stupid; that would be the ad-hominem fallacy. But they are still stupid.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
Personally, I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause. If you were a religious Christian, would you want your dumb uncle championing the cause of Christ in facebook rants? If you were gay, would you want to point to the most adolescent in-your-face exhibitions of gay pride to say "yep, that's what we're all about."
And when he expresses his cause as platitudes, then it's hard to know what to latch on to. The "pigs" socks really ruined his chance of being a person to thoughtfully help this dialogue, IMHO.
So, I think that trying to not be reactive, one can say he's basically a brat, and then say "could someone who agrees with his cause when actually spelled out coherently make a case, and let's talk."
It's like dumb bands like "Rage against the Machine." Are we going to learn from them about the evils of capitalism beyond T-shirts and platitudes? No. But if someone more thoughtful speaks up, let's chat.
as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
If you think CK wearing pig socks is some inhumane act, fine. But where are the blowhards when the cops do something worse? They are nowhere. They only criticize people of color when they do something they feel is wrong because it's entirely too convenient for their narrative. Talking about the awful cops in this country just isn't good press for them apparently.
is that CK spent time with kids, teaching them how to properly interact with police, better understand the letter of the law, take pride in their heritage, and people freak out that he's running a black panther camp, as if he's militarizing them.
And why do you think this is? I think we all know, but some people just don't want to say it.
calling people racist or saying they have racist views. The same people who always talk about being "politically correct" are the same one who dance around the subject. The world would be much better off if people would just admit it.
as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
If you think CK wearing pig socks is some inhumane act, fine. But where are the blowhards when the cops do something worse? They are nowhere. They only criticize people of color when they do something they feel is wrong because it's entirely too convenient for their narrative. Talking about the awful cops in this country just isn't good press for them apparently.
Focusing on the 'blowhards' (likely a small, loud minority) is no different than focusing on pig socks. Instead of furthering his point, you're just attacking other individuals and giving them more cause to get enraged.
You'd be far better off ignoring the 'blowhards' and trying to stay on message.
I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
calling people racist or saying they have racist views. The same people who always talk about being "politically correct" are the same one who dance around the subject. The world would be much better off if people would just admit it.
The world would be better off if people actually listened to those who have opposing views and tried to understand where they are coming from. Then they might actually be able to address the differences and eventually resolve the underlying issues. Instead they just shout louder and claim anyone that disagrees is racist, sexist, anti-christian, whatever -ist you want to include.
I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
Compared to his play on the field, his kneeling is a minor footnote towards his chances of future employment in the NFL...
I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
That's fair, David. I have to get back work; good chatting with you, and keep your pants on.
RE: RE: RE: stupid people can be right about many things
we don't dismiss their cause because they are stupid; that would be the ad-hominem fallacy. But they are still stupid.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
Personally, I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause. If you were a religious Christian, would you want your dumb uncle championing the cause of Christ in facebook rants? If you were gay, would you want to point to the most adolescent in-your-face exhibitions of gay pride to say "yep, that's what we're all about."
And when he expresses his cause as platitudes, then it's hard to know what to latch on to. The "pigs" socks really ruined his chance of being a person to thoughtfully help this dialogue, IMHO.
So, I think that trying to not be reactive, one can say he's basically a brat, and then say "could someone who agrees with his cause when actually spelled out coherently make a case, and let's talk."
It's like dumb bands like "Rage against the Machine." Are we going to learn from them about the evils of capitalism beyond T-shirts and platitudes? No. But if someone more thoughtful speaks up, let's chat.
Just some musings.
Hey! What's with the dig on RATM? Even though it's a joke that they are allegedly anti capitalist while being signed to a major label, lol.
And yeah, cmon, Dunedin isn't racist, even if you don't agree with him. Calling everyone a racist when they aren't just cheapens the word and takes away what it means. There are a number of other posters on here to whom that label more appropriately applies to. Dunedin definitely isn't one of them, even if I don't agree with everything he says.
RE: RE: Good post Moon, I generally agree with you
I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
Compared to his play on the field, his kneeling is a minor footnote towards his chances of future employment in the NFL...
:=)
Touche! :-)
RE: RE: Good post Moon, I generally agree with you
I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
That's fair, David. I have to get back work; good chatting with you, and keep your pants on.
Nice chatting with you as well. I'll try my best to keep my drawers on, not making any promises!
While thoroughly bored with Kaep drama by this point
(formerly somewhat sympathetic, he lost me with Castro), I have to chime in to defend Rage Against the Machine.
Regardless of Morello's outspokenness (he also chimed in about Fidel) and perceived hypocrisy of fulminating against Capitalism while concurrently profiting from it, his band rocks so ridiculously fucking hard that he could be screaming about basically anything and I'd still be dialed in.
Their debut self-titled release in '92 is straight up one of the best albums of all time. Any genre.
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Now back to your regularly scheduled Kaepernick discussion.
think it's important to note era. Absolutely no disrespect to the legend of Ali but I don't think he (or anyone else for that matter) from eras pre social media/24 hour news would be looked at as highly as they were during their time. I'm not some Ali expert but I've read some "not so great" things about him to the point I think his "approval rating" would be lower than it is given his era... I also think it's part of the reason Lebron is heavily shit on. Lebron is seemingly a pretty awesome person (stupid "The Decision" crap aside).
think it's important to note era. Absolutely no disrespect to the legend of Ali but I don't think he (or anyone else for that matter) from eras pre social media/24 hour news would be looked at as highly as they were during their time. I'm not some Ali expert but I've read some "not so great" things about him to the point I think his "approval rating" would be lower than it is given his era... I also think it's part of the reason Lebron is heavily shit on. Lebron is seemingly a pretty awesome person (stupid "The Decision" crap aside).
Revisionists like to pretend that Ali wasn't hated by many. A lot of the admirers would probably despise Ali today too IMO.
is something sort of nice about not having every last person picked apart. Wall to wall coverage exposing MLK Jr of cheating on his wife might have made some think lesser of him. Ask people what they don't like about Lebron and it's generally vague or silly. Humans are flawed.
as a "basketball villain" (duly facilitated by himself with the absurd transition to Miami) and as a person. He is plainly a pretty caring guy and as far as social commentary, the anti-Jordan. I suspect he really values being homies with the Prez which has no doubt in part engendered his activism (or w/e you wanna call it).
On the court: it's remarkable how rapidly he has transitioned back into the good guy (with a key assist from KD). It's rather obvious that he did not enjoy being the villain, esp in the eyes of his fellow Ohioans. I strongly disliked him as a Heat (something I don't see as irrational), but after witnessing the positively epic comeback the Cavs pulled off, led by him, I can't help but respect the hell out of him. This deserves to go down as a top 5 finals moment of all time, and we'll be seeing it when we're old, grey, and impotent.
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Your point about eras is salient. You can apply it in many areas...Presidents for instance. FDR's infirmed appearance in another era? GW's temper? JFK's insatiable erection? etc.
Your point about eras is salient. You can apply it in many areas...Presidents for instance. FDR's infirmed appearance in another era? GW's temper? JFK's insatiable erection? etc.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
You should probably see someone about that anger, bruh.
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Who's deep down probably just trying to figure out a way to be relevant again
You should probably see someone about that anger, bruh.
Oh please, that's me being mildly amused. You don't wanna see me angry bruh...
Listen, I know Beez went off the grid after the Molly Pan incident, but there's no reason for name calling here.
Ali INFURIATED people. He was HATED. Think the pushback Kaepernick has received, x1000. History vindicated Ali, but in the middle of it, he as an intensely polarizing figure.
As far as I can recall, LeBron's most polarizing moment was "I'm taking my talents to South Beach." He's been much more outspoken than Michael Jordan was, and seems to aim for social relevance and leadership in a way that Jordan never did.
Kaepernik isn't a titan in his sport the way Ali was and LeBron is.
Neither Kaepernik nor LeBron has paid anything like the price Ali paid for his refusal to go be drafted.
But still, Kaepernik has come a lot closer to engendering the kind of rage Ali did by taking a political stand.
radar's gonna get really confused.
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I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
It's not about not knowing what Ali did as much as it is more the fact that Lebron is, well, still alive. Who the hell knows what could happen. Obviously he hasn't really left much of a social impact on the sense that Ali has to this respective point in their lives, but Thomas's comment seemed speculative anyway.
Cassius Clay, on the other hand, made statements and demonstrated in ways that changed both his life and the world around him. There will never be another like him.
I don't like IT, but he is not saying that LeBron has created the social impact Ali did. He's saying that LeBron could, given his global celebrity and his impact on the sports world. That's all.
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In comment 13240383 Sonic Youth said:
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I mean he ruined the Knicks so I feel like that's worse than this quote. Anyway, you can't really judge the impact or historical view of something as its happening or immediately after for the most part. Who knows how he'll go down? He's still relatively young with regards to making a social impact. Besides, he's the only athlete with the profile and global celebrity/scope around today to such a great degree that he's the only person who even has a shot of approaching Ali's stature, from an American perspective.
If he said this about Kaepnerick or something I'd probably get your OP a little more, lol.
I think that anyone old enough (or who knows enough) to remember Ali--his place in 20th century sports firmament and popular culture in general throughout the world, what he gave up to not fight in Vietnam, his stature within the overarching issues of and race and racism in his times--would want to slap Isaiah in the fucking mouth.
I was born in 1989 so all I know is what I read in history books. My point wasn't about the comparison, more that it's not really possible to compare any of this shit (or really any history) until the future, so it's an exercise in futility, albeit this seems pretty baseless to begin with. When I made my comment, I was considering how much Ali was hated at the time, and how irrelevant that hate seems today. Which is why I was talking about historical context being impossible to judge in the present day.
It's not about not knowing what Ali did as much as it is more the fact that Lebron is, well, still alive. Who the hell knows what could happen. Obviously he hasn't really left much of a social impact on the sense that Ali has to this respective point in their lives, but Thomas's comment seemed speculative anyway.
I am also too young; I was born in the 70's, but guess I know enough people and have spoken to enough to get a sense of Ali's impact (what to speak of just reading up on him). We're in the same boat. Your point about possibility is a good one. He still has a chance to do something. But still, I think that the real difference is our *times* vs. Ali's *times* and how different the world it. He had much more to risk, and did! And the world had much to change; we've come so far since the 50's. Most "stands" nowadays seem to involve risk-free social media chorus-joining.
#savethechildren
Cassius Clay, on the other hand, made statements and demonstrated in ways that changed both his life and the world around him. There will never be another like him.
What exactly does Lebron have to do to prove how genuine his philanthropic dealings are? He recently sent 1,100 kids to college with $41m of his own money (yeah I know he'll get tax breaks). He's in a great position to help the community, and it seems that he does a great job of giving back.
Well that statement alone is more ignorant than anything Kaepernick has ever done or said so...where does that put you? Let me guess, you're one of those "if you don't like America you can get your ass up and leave" type guys?
Let me ask you this...what makes Kaepernick's stances "uninformed" and "juvenile" - are you saying this because he's a black guy with an afro...or do you have any concrete evidence to support your claim?
Would you see this donation is juvenile and uninformed? Should these communities not accept this money because it's tainted with a guy who *gasp* wouldn't stand for the anthem? Gimme a break man. What Kaepernick is doing is 10X less than Ali - yet Ali is beloved. Kaepernick is hated because this country has a racism and intolerance problem...that pretty much sums it up.
Would you see this donation is juvenile and uninformed? Should these communities not accept this money because it's tainted with a guy who *gasp* wouldn't stand for the anthem? Gimme a break man. What Kaepernick is doing is 10X less than Ali - yet Ali is beloved. Kaepernick is hated because this country has a racism and intolerance problem...that pretty much sums it up.
It's juvenile to wear socks with pig cops on them.
It's juvenile to not vote because you don't know your local politics and yet want a world stage to lecture everyone else.
You can do good things and also be juvenile in your overall approach.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
I'm not saying you need to follow suit...nobody needs or should be forced to follow suit. It's completely ignorant, and pretty much I can tell racist...for you to call him this uninformed juvenile asshole.
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to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
If your default when someone criticizes Castro is "hospitals and schools" you're not oozing wisdom. Hitler built the autobahn, the world was still a better place when he died. To millions of people in Cuba and elsewhere Castro is on par.
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to wear a Fidel Castro shirt when you know nothing about the impact of him as a world leader, when you want to play yourself up as someone with valid political opinions.
It's completely ignorant to say that Kaep "knows nothing" about the impact Castro had. And also, there are plenty of racist and pathetic cops in this country that are despicable human beings. I don't blame Kaepernick for it - he is getting his point across one way or the other.
It's not 'ignorant' to say he didn't know enough about Castro to use him as a medium to make a political point. Obviously and ironically, you brandish about that word like it's verbal correctness. It's not. You're wrong. Get over it.
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don't expect me to take your stance on police violence seriously. Cracking bacon jokes and hating police because they made you pour out your six pack is the stuff of 17 year olds. Likewise, mounting a half-assed defense of the legacy of Fidel Castro to a first-generation Cuban screams undergrad sociology major. If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to take advantage of the platform your celebrity offers you to push for social change, be serious. Just because you want to ascribe wisdom to a guy for saying in vague and general terms something you agree with in equally vague and general terms doesn't mean the rest of us must follow suit.
I'm not saying you need to follow suit...nobody needs or should be forced to follow suit. It's completely ignorant, and pretty much I can tell racist...for you to call him this uninformed juvenile asshole.
Allow me to revise my statement. YOU are an ignorant piece of shit. Fuck you. You know nothing about me but apparently you think you can glean enough from my condemnation of a spoiled twit like Kaepernick to judge me a racist.
Because people will call the racist claimer a twat and tell them to go fuck themselves?
I think it goes to show you can't discuss pretty much any subject without one side or both sides getting incredibly emotional and one side or both sides trying to find anyway to have a reason to ignore the other side.
Echo chambers fucking rule.
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Because people will call the racist claimer a twat and tell them to go fuck themselves?
I think it goes to show you can't discuss pretty much any subject without one side or both sides getting incredibly emotional and one side or both sides trying to find anyway to have a reason to ignore the other side.
Echo chambers fucking rule.
No, because people are called racist for nothing more than criticizing a person they deem immature and stupid.
Christian Ponder has always been a lightning rod...
"I refute your point because you are racist and I won't hear anymore about it."
Which is no better than " I refute your point because you are an idiotic twat and I won't hear anymore about it."
It's unfortunately a two way street.
"I refute your point because you are racist and I won't hear anymore about it."
Which is no better than " I refute your point because you are an idiotic twat and I won't hear anymore about it."
It's unfortunately a two way street.
There is more evidence that CK is dumb than that Dune is a racist. Not equivalent.
Kaepernick is very stupid IMO - doesn't mean he doesn't have some shred of a point.
It's not a cheap accusation. Calling a spade a spade is how I'd see it.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
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as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
Completely disagree. He was getting flack before the shirt and socks.
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we don't dismiss their cause because they are stupid; that would be the ad-hominem fallacy. But they are still stupid.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
Personally, I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause. If you were a religious Christian, would you want your dumb uncle championing the cause of Christ in facebook rants? If you were gay, would you want to point to the most adolescent in-your-face exhibitions of gay pride to say "yep, that's what we're all about."
And when he expresses his cause as platitudes, then it's hard to know what to latch on to. The "pigs" socks really ruined his chance of being a person to thoughtfully help this dialogue, IMHO.
So, I think that trying to not be reactive, one can say he's basically a brat, and then say "could someone who agrees with his cause when actually spelled out coherently make a case, and let's talk."
It's like dumb bands like "Rage against the Machine." Are we going to learn from them about the evils of capitalism beyond T-shirts and platitudes? No. But if someone more thoughtful speaks up, let's chat.
Just some musings.
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as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
If you think CK wearing pig socks is some inhumane act, fine. But where are the blowhards when the cops do something worse? They are nowhere. They only criticize people of color when they do something they feel is wrong because it's entirely too convenient for their narrative. Talking about the awful cops in this country just isn't good press for them apparently.
And why do you think this is? I think we all know, but some people just don't want to say it.
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In comment 13241472 ryanmkeane said:
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as I've said before, the fact that Kaep is black makes it too easy for blowhards to voice their opinions about him. If Kaep or another person doing it was white...there'd be no issue. Literally no issue at all. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
If CK didn't wear pig socks or a Castro shirt, the blowhards wouldn't have anything to criticize him for.
If you think CK wearing pig socks is some inhumane act, fine. But where are the blowhards when the cops do something worse? They are nowhere. They only criticize people of color when they do something they feel is wrong because it's entirely too convenient for their narrative. Talking about the awful cops in this country just isn't good press for them apparently.
Focusing on the 'blowhards' (likely a small, loud minority) is no different than focusing on pig socks. Instead of furthering his point, you're just attacking other individuals and giving them more cause to get enraged.
You'd be far better off ignoring the 'blowhards' and trying to stay on message.
The world would be better off if people actually listened to those who have opposing views and tried to understand where they are coming from. Then they might actually be able to address the differences and eventually resolve the underlying issues. Instead they just shout louder and claim anyone that disagrees is racist, sexist, anti-christian, whatever -ist you want to include.
The list of logical fallacies that he is employed in order to justify an insult is long and distinguished.
Compared to his play on the field, his kneeling is a minor footnote towards his chances of future employment in the NFL...
:=)
That's fair, David. I have to get back work; good chatting with you, and keep your pants on.
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In comment 13241460 Moondawg said:
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we don't dismiss their cause because they are stupid; that would be the ad-hominem fallacy. But they are still stupid.
That's a very fair take. The way I look at it is this: Would you rather go after one person (in this case CK), or address a broader issue that's going on in our backyard? Seems to me, people would rather focus on CK, and to me, that highlights something backwards in what we place value in.
Personally, I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause. If you were a religious Christian, would you want your dumb uncle championing the cause of Christ in facebook rants? If you were gay, would you want to point to the most adolescent in-your-face exhibitions of gay pride to say "yep, that's what we're all about."
And when he expresses his cause as platitudes, then it's hard to know what to latch on to. The "pigs" socks really ruined his chance of being a person to thoughtfully help this dialogue, IMHO.
So, I think that trying to not be reactive, one can say he's basically a brat, and then say "could someone who agrees with his cause when actually spelled out coherently make a case, and let's talk."
It's like dumb bands like "Rage against the Machine." Are we going to learn from them about the evils of capitalism beyond T-shirts and platitudes? No. But if someone more thoughtful speaks up, let's chat.
Just some musings.
And yeah, cmon, Dunedin isn't racist, even if you don't agree with him. Calling everyone a racist when they aren't just cheapens the word and takes away what it means. There are a number of other posters on here to whom that label more appropriately applies to. Dunedin definitely isn't one of them, even if I don't agree with everything he says.
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I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
Compared to his play on the field, his kneeling is a minor footnote towards his chances of future employment in the NFL...
:=)
Touche! :-)
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I wouldn't want an idiot championing my cause either, I kind of look at it as haggling over what type of spokesperson is necessary to bring attention to an issue. Not everyone is a Lebron James level almost perfect spokesperson, with the best PR people money can buy. CK rolled the dice, and if I were in his shoes, I'd think that the kneeling could jeopardize chance at any further employment in the NFL. He took a stand/knee, brought attention to an issue.
That's fair, David. I have to get back work; good chatting with you, and keep your pants on.
Nice chatting with you as well. I'll try my best to keep my drawers on, not making any promises!
Regardless of Morello's outspokenness (he also chimed in about Fidel) and perceived hypocrisy of fulminating against Capitalism while concurrently profiting from it, his band rocks so ridiculously fucking hard that he could be screaming about basically anything and I'd still be dialed in.
Their debut self-titled release in '92 is straight up one of the best albums of all time. Any genre.
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Now back to your regularly scheduled Kaepernick discussion.
Ryanmkeane, if you're just calling it as you see it, then you should get your eyes checked. Even your hindsight sucks.
Revisionists like to pretend that Ali wasn't hated by many. A lot of the admirers would probably despise Ali today too IMO.
Hope that helps
Link - ( New Window )
On the court: it's remarkable how rapidly he has transitioned back into the good guy (with a key assist from KD). It's rather obvious that he did not enjoy being the villain, esp in the eyes of his fellow Ohioans. I strongly disliked him as a Heat (something I don't see as irrational), but after witnessing the positively epic comeback the Cavs pulled off, led by him, I can't help but respect the hell out of him. This deserves to go down as a top 5 finals moment of all time, and we'll be seeing it when we're old, grey, and impotent.
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Your point about eras is salient. You can apply it in many areas...Presidents for instance. FDR's infirmed appearance in another era? GW's temper? JFK's insatiable erection? etc.
Your point about eras is salient. You can apply it in many areas...Presidents for instance. FDR's infirmed appearance in another era? GW's temper? JFK's insatiable erection? etc.
Taft's chocoholism