Fair Catching Every Punt

I wish the Viking PR fair caught the punt inside the 15 last night.
That fumble killed them.

how about the cowboys allowing their PR who fumbled earlier in the game attempt to return a punt with about 3 minutes to go and getting the ball back up 8?

The coaches are morons.

I would consider going for the block every time. Bring everyone into the line of scrimmage which will also bring he gunners in tight too.

Go for the block and I think your odds of making something positive happen that way are greater than a huge punt return.

Then, if there are no gunners your punt returner may have an easier time fielding the punt even if it is just for a fair catch.

I think there is still a net benefit to returning them when the returner can think straight. Every yard matters, it's the muffed punts IMO that are the killers.

You could take it one more step farther -

Don't even have a returner back and only practice to block kicks. Who knows if you could ever get good enough or get inside the heads of enough punters so that it would be a net benefit strategy. That might be taking it way too far though.

in order to keep the punter honest. Otherwise, they can get the ball off without worrying about direction, height or distance (making it much more difficult to block), and the ball could roll 20 yards to make up for the difference.

if that were the case (DeSean Jackson)

I have no numbers to back this up, but I would think way less than 50% of the kickoffs returned from the end zone get past the 25 yard line.

not every team has the same weapons on their return teams. I don't think a blanket rule can be applied to all teams. Maybe if we have Rainey back there full time he should always fair catch, but why would we with Beckham?

In comment 13244279 NoPeanutz said:

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in order to keep the punter honest. Otherwise, they can get the ball off without worrying about direction, height or distance (making it much more difficult to block), and the ball could roll 20 yards to make up for the difference.

Likely true. My thinking was if every punter knew that everytime they punted against your team there was always going to be at least 1 free rusher. That might get inside their head in a huge way. It's not like a Punter is like a quarterback and has a hot read for a free blitzer.

It never would happen unless the situation was maybe the punter doing a pooch punt or punting against the wind. You are right that the downside risk is huge so maybe it is only feasible when the downside risk is very small.

was great at fair catching punts.

if it's under 4 yards you open yourself up to running into the kicker. If it's over roughing is always an option.

You should keep your defense on the field and avoid the punt fake and have a returner back to fair catch it.

Last night Dallas was up 8 with 3 minutes to go. They shouldnt have even let the guy try to catch it. They actually let him return it. Just let the ball bounce and you get the ball back. Why risk the ball being dropped and losing possession?

In comment 13244292 UConn4523 said:

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not every team has the same weapons on their return teams. I don't think a blanket rule can be applied to all teams. Maybe if we have Rainey back there full time he should always fair catch, but why would we with Beckham?

Beckham had two great returns last week......called back on holds.

when you have a weapon you use it. If you play to not make mistakes you play scared.

In comment 13244312 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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In comment 13244292 UConn4523 said: Quote: not every team has the same weapons on their return teams. I don't think a blanket rule can be applied to all teams. Maybe if we have Rainey back there full time he should always fair catch, but why would we with Beckham? Beckham had two great returns last week......called back on holds.

So? If your argument is that the risk of a holding penalty isn't worth the gamechanging return, than I don't agree with you. The holding on his TD was iffy anyway, could call or not call that on every return.

does? I think he onside kicks all the time too.
Link - ( New Window )

Do a better job of coaching your punt returner to choose wisely. Even if that means choosing a guy like Phil McConkey over an OBJ simply because you trust him more to not take ill-advised chances.

my main argument is your more likely to have game changing plays against you then you are in your favor. There are far more holdings, muffs, etc then there are positive returns. Look at the league average and number of touchdowns.

How many times do you see a team try to return it and get backed up inside their own ten?

In comment 13244329 Milton said:

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Do a better job of coaching your punt returner to choose wisely. Even if that means choosing a guy like Phil McConkey over an OBJ simply because you trust him more to not take ill-advised chances.

I have very little faith in the majority of NFL coaches. The coach of a 12-1 team gave his player the option to return the ball last night up 8 getting the ball back with 3 minutes. He has the best rushing attack in football. The same player who fumbled earlier in the game.

These guys may know Xs and O's more than the fans but they dont get logic.

You make good points, but I'd hate to forego the chance for positive yardage simply out of fear that one of your players is going to make a poor decision. Phil McConkey was the most uninspiring punt returner I've ever seen, but there were very few negative plays associated with him.

but like I said, I wouldn't just apply this as the norm. Should the Chiefs stop returning punts? Hill is averaging almost 16 yards per return and just had a historic game which included a kick off return TD. What about the Eagles with Sproles who's had 2 return TD's each of the past 2 years?

Maybe teams without a viable option at PR or KR should consider this strategy, but I'd be pretty displeased if we sent Beckham out there to fair catch the ball.

In comment 13244334 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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In comment 13244329 Milton said: Quote: Do a better job of coaching your punt returner to choose wisely. Even if that means choosing a guy like Phil McConkey over an OBJ simply because you trust him more to not take ill-advised chances. I have very little faith in the majority of NFL coaches. The coach of a 12-1 team gave his player the option to return the ball last night up 8 getting the ball back with 3 minutes. He has the best rushing attack in football. The same player who fumbled earlier in the game. These guys may know Xs and O's more than the fans but they dont get logic.

Jesus, so you know logic better than "the majority of head coaches"? How can anyone take you seriously?

a really conservative punt return game, though score, time on the clock, and confidence in the O definitely play a factor.

Trying to "make a play" on punt returns rarely works out. That being said, in the right circumstances, I'm ok with putting Odell back there and letting him ball.

a good for those Giants teams because he helped them win the field position battle by not fumbling. He wouldn't be a good fit on teams that didn't have excellent defenses.

In 84 career returns, he never had a TD and his longest return was 37 yards. The way we crap on Harris, who also rarely fumbles and can break one for TD's, we'd probably run a modern-day McConkey off the team.

Actually we already did when we had a washed up Brian Mitchell.

In comment 13244364 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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a good for those Giants teams because he helped them win the field position battle by not fumbling. He wouldn't be a good fit on teams that didn't have excellent defenses. In 84 career returns, he never had a TD and his longest return was 37 yards. The way we crap on Harris, who also rarely fumbles and can break one for TD's, we'd probably run a modern-day McConkey off the team. Actually we already did when we had a washed up Brian Mitchell.

Harris has put multiple balls on the ground since he's been a Giant. We've just gotten lucky and recovered them.

Good judgement is the key.Yes,a fair catch is the right thing many times but when there is time to make the catch and start moving forward why would you not try to get all you can,it could be the difference in a game.Having a sure handed punt catcher is critical.Fair catches can be muffed the same as if you were going to return them.

In comment 13244364 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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a good for those Giants teams because he helped them win the field position battle by not fumbling. He wouldn't be a good fit on teams that didn't have excellent defenses. In 84 career returns, he never had a TD and his longest return was 37 yards. The way we crap on Harris, who also rarely fumbles and can break one for TD's, we'd probably run a modern-day McConkey off the team. Actually we already did when we had a washed up Brian Mitchell.

but McConkey NEVER let the ball hit the ground, something Bill rightly demanded. It's not solely about fumbling. It's catching the ball while it is in the air, not letting it roll, or bounce off of someone for a turnover.

In comment 13244359 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 13244334 Old Dirty Beckham said: Quote: In comment 13244329 Milton said: Quote: Do a better job of coaching your punt returner to choose wisely. Even if that means choosing a guy like Phil McConkey over an OBJ simply because you trust him more to not take ill-advised chances. I have very little faith in the majority of NFL coaches. The coach of a 12-1 team gave his player the option to return the ball last night up 8 getting the ball back with 3 minutes. He has the best rushing attack in football. The same player who fumbled earlier in the game. These guys may know Xs and O's more than the fans but they dont get logic. Jesus, so you know logic better than "the majority of head coaches"? How can anyone take you seriously?

Me and any other person who has a well functioning brain. On a weekly basis I see dumb ass move after dumb ass move by coaches.

Pete Carol and Bill Bellicheck are two of the finest coaches. Watch the final two minutes of that game. Both make baffling, boneheaded, logic defying decisions.

also has 4 return TD's in his career and had 3 years with a return average over 10 YPR. His best season nearly doubled McConkey's best season.

McConkey's best season never even broke double digits.

In comment 13244387 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 13244364 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: a good for those Giants teams because he helped them win the field position battle by not fumbling. He wouldn't be a good fit on teams that didn't have excellent defenses. In 84 career returns, he never had a TD and his longest return was 37 yards. The way we crap on Harris, who also rarely fumbles and can break one for TD's, we'd probably run a modern-day McConkey off the team. Actually we already did when we had a washed up Brian Mitchell. but McConkey NEVER let the ball hit the ground, something Bill rightly demanded. It's not solely about fumbling. It's catching the ball while it is in the air, not letting it roll, or bounce off of someone for a turnover.

Come on Victor - You supposedly have watched the Giants long enough to know that McConkey let the ball hit the ground alright... You surely remember his fumbled punt in the second half against the Jets that eliminated the Giants from the playoff in 1988...One of the worst Giants losses ever. Could be the worst fumbled punt in team history.

To say McConkey "NEVER" fumbled the ball is revisionist history

In comment 13244388 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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In comment 13244359 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 13244334 Old Dirty Beckham said: Quote: In comment 13244329 Milton said: Quote: Do a better job of coaching your punt returner to choose wisely. Even if that means choosing a guy like Phil McConkey over an OBJ simply because you trust him more to not take ill-advised chances. I have very little faith in the majority of NFL coaches. The coach of a 12-1 team gave his player the option to return the ball last night up 8 getting the ball back with 3 minutes. He has the best rushing attack in football. The same player who fumbled earlier in the game. These guys may know Xs and O's more than the fans but they dont get logic. Jesus, so you know logic better than "the majority of head coaches"? How can anyone take you seriously? Me and any other person who has a well functioning brain. On a weekly basis I see dumb ass move after dumb ass move by coaches. Pete Carol and Bill Bellicheck are two of the finest coaches. Watch the final two minutes of that game. Both make baffling, boneheaded, logic defying decisions.

Yeah from your couch, must be nice huh? You have absolutely no idea what the reason is for many of these calls, you have no idea what/when audibles occur, you have no idea if an important player is dinged and can't be in on that snap, you have no idea of the countless possibilities that come up during the 30-40 seconds between snapping the ball but here you are calling out most of the NFL coaches for not being logical.

Talk about irony.

was referring more to McConkey catching the ball in the air, but even that is revisionist history. Late in games, McConkey often let the ball hit the ground and get downed by the opposition instead of risking a fumble. Because the Giants knew that their D was dominant and the O just had to minimize mistakes, it was a good strategy.

In comment 13244525 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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was referring more to McConkey catching the ball in the air, but even that is revisionist history. Late in games, McConkey often let the ball hit the ground and get downed by the opposition instead of risking a fumble. Because the Giants knew that their D was dominant and the O just had to minimize mistakes, it was a good strategy.

Thanks Fats. That is exactly what I was referring to. Yes, probably seeing through some rose colored glasses too with my hyperbole.

But Parcells was always adamant about catching it in the air. He almost cut Meggett in preseason over drops but was talked out of it.

In comment 13244541 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 13244525 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: was referring more to McConkey catching the ball in the air, but even that is revisionist history. Late in games, McConkey often let the ball hit the ground and get downed by the opposition instead of risking a fumble. Because the Giants knew that their D was dominant and the O just had to minimize mistakes, it was a good strategy. Thanks Fats. That is exactly what I was referring to. Yes, probably seeing through some rose colored glasses too with my hyperbole. But Parcells was always adamant about catching it in the air. He almost cut Meggett in preseason over drops but was talked out of it.

Ah... I get it now. I thought it was a "fumbling" comment...That fumble (and loss to the Jets, in particular) has stayed with me for years. I should have paid more attention to the context of your statement. My bad there, Victor.

In comment 13244385 tomjgiant said:

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Good judgement is the key.Yes,a fair catch is the right thing many times but when there is time to make the catch and start moving forward why would you not try to get all you can,it could be the difference in a game.Having a sure handed punt catcher is critical.Fair catches can be muffed the same as if you were going to return them.

.

I agree, the average per punt return is not as imperative
as catching the damn ball. If he is a good returner as well,
that's icing on the cake. You folks recall Domenik Hixon
right, well he knew when to fair catch, and one year IIRC
he was 4th in the league in PR avg. at about 12.5.
Why should the chance of taking it to the house be done away with? I am not buying. It doesn't matter what the percentages say as well.

In comment 13244551 kinard said:

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In comment 13244541 Victor in CT said: Quote: In comment 13244525 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: was referring more to McConkey catching the ball in the air, but even that is revisionist history. Late in games, McConkey often let the ball hit the ground and get downed by the opposition instead of risking a fumble. Because the Giants knew that their D was dominant and the O just had to minimize mistakes, it was a good strategy. Thanks Fats. That is exactly what I was referring to. Yes, probably seeing through some rose colored glasses too with my hyperbole. But Parcells was always adamant about catching it in the air. He almost cut Meggett in preseason over drops but was talked out of it. Ah... I get it now. I thought it was a "fumbling" comment...That fumble (and loss to the Jets, in particular) has stayed with me for years. I should have paid more attention to the context of your statement. My bad there, Victor.

no worries kinard.

should be the rate of fumbles. If it is negligible, then you return punts. Any yardage is a positive. And penalties can be called on a fair catch, so that shouldn't negate the decision to try to return a punt if the coverage seems to be there.

I don't think it should be a blanket rule applied to everyone.

I think for kickoffs it doesn't make sense to take it out unless you have a returner/special teams unit with a proven track record of getting TDs. Can't even think of anyone that comes to mind except like brown and cordarelle Patterson. Tyreke hill is a guy in the PR game that can be lethal.

A chance for a special team TD for teams like KC, Denver or Philly far outweigh any 10-15 yard penalty. Special teams can be the difference in a win or loss for certain teams (like KC against Denver or philly against Minnesota earlier in the year).

you're somewhat also taking away blocking the kick (they can sit in max protect).

kick returns are the first play of an offensive possession.
Fair catching every punt is akin to taking a knee because you're afraid you might fumble.

return punts, Beckham is one of those, when it is needed, for whatever reason, let him loose. When not, don't take the risk of injury.

those are basically free yards for the offense on those plays - even if the return is just 3 yards it's worth it.

Kickoffs are different. Every ball caught in the end zone should be downed without exception.

How many have gone past the 25 yard line ?
Punts different story . If we have a short field or are desperate for a score I got OBJ back there ....
Rainey blew it with the muff and I think he is a decent
return guy but thats been his biggest problem is fielding
kicks ..

And why don't they kick the ball out of the end zone on every kick off?

And why don't they just kick the easy extra point every time instead of ever going for two?

But I have changed my mind. I weighed the chances of our best offensive weapon getting hurt against the chances of his scoring a touchdown. OBJ should return punts because: (1) he is clearly a very dangerous returner. & (2) The Giants have trouble scoring more than 2-3 touchdowns in a game.

The average NFL team punts 5-6 times a game. The chances are that OBJ will break a couple of long runs, putting the team in good scoring position & if he can score a few touchdowns by returning punts, they will probably be the difference between winning & losing.

I remember a coach once being asked why he ran a particular player up to 30X per game. His answer was "When you have a canon you fire it." LBJ is the Giants canon. Pull the trigger.

so I'm all for them.

key player is possible. Maybe find the team should find a dazzling returner in the offseason if that is what they really want back there.

McConkey was..
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/2/2016 11:56 am : link : reply
a good for those Giants teams because he helped them win the field position battle by not fumbling. He wouldn't be a good fit on teams that didn't have excellent defenses.

In 84 career returns, he never had a TD and his longest return was 37 yards. The way we crap on Harris, who also rarely fumbles and can break one for TD's, we'd probably run a modern-day McConkey off the team.

Actually we already did when we had a washed up Brian Mitchell.

Rarely did he muff a punt at least not like Rainey although
he is a good returner but your holding your breath untill
he secures it . As a runner he doesn't fumble much at all
OBJ I don't worry about his hands . I think we have to
give him more opportunities point are a premium as is
field position . At 8-3 we have to maximize what we can
continue this run .

I can't have our ONLY offensive playmaker risking injury out there during PRs