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Let's face it. Reese whiffed on Flowers at 9.

TheGhostofBlueGuy : 12/5/2016 12:20 am
I know it is easy to look back in retrospect and say Flowers should not have been the pick, but the truth is what it is. Flowers might be the worst LT in the league and it showed today. Old Man Harrison gave him a clinic today.

You knew it was going to be a long day on the hold in the endzone. His technique is shit. What is with the head down and grab move? Is that what that is called? He seems lazy and looks to be uncoachable at this point.

A knee jerk pick in response to Dallas just killing it in the draft with OL. Pugh was a semi reach as well although he has acquitted himself nicely, injuries aside. Richburg has regressed terribly. We all want to laud Reese for his 1st and 2nd round draft prowess, but it isn't all perfect. I'm not bashing him. Just stating the obvious.

Danny Shelton would have looked good here. Oh, and lazy Andrus Peat is looking good in N.O.

Should've. Could've. Would've.

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Anyone can make a bad pick and book is not closed on Flowers  
Vanzetti : 12/5/2016 12:27 am : link
So I'm not going to kill Reese for the pick.

What was idiotic, though, was insisting that Flowers was the LT this year come hell or highwater and having no backup plan. Anyone who saw Flowers last year knew there was a possibility he could struggle. It is ridiculous to say otherwise.

For some reason, there seems to be this arrogance in the Giant's organization regarding their evaluations--as if somehow they are smarter than everyone. Their complete mis-evaluation of the OL shows how far from the truth that is.

I'm pissed at Flowers too  
GiantSteps : 12/5/2016 12:29 am : link
There's a feeling I get on critical downs, like a premonition. It hits like once or twice a game, and almost never is wrong.

A Flowers hold is coming!

It's crazy with that guy. Kills us over and over again, at the worst possible times.

That said, I'm wondering if he just ends up playing somewhere else on the line next year. Maybe he goes back to RT and we end up looking for someone else at LT? I'm not ready to call him a bust, but man he can be maddening sometimes.
It's his second year.  
Beezer : 12/5/2016 12:34 am : link
So, while I'm as pissed as anyone when his shit shows up like its scheduled, I keep reminding myself how few NFL games he's played.

Like others, I wonder if a flip to the right would help. I hope the FO has a solution. Or at least that he evolves. Quickly.
He's become a bit of a victim of reputation  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 12:35 am : link
a lot of calls on him were very iffy. Hopefully we get Pugh back soon. Flowers seems more settled when Pugh is lined up next to him.
The thing is that it isn't anything physical  
Mason : 12/5/2016 12:37 am : link
It's all mental with this guy. His mentality is that of a chipmunk. I mean he reacts after there is already moment, he tugs down guys he has already stoned. I highly doubt this guy worked with anyone this off-season other than his father and his uncle. Hart is making this guy look like a joke.
half the calls on him are bullshit  
SHO'NUFF : 12/5/2016 12:42 am : link
the other half is pure lazy technique.
Maybe  
NikkiMac : 12/5/2016 12:42 am : link
They should put Hart at LT ?????
I DESPISED the pick, but I wouldn't call it a whiff just yet  
Anakim : 12/5/2016 12:46 am : link
At LT, yes. At RT or RG? Who knows? Lane Johnson was taken fourth overall and played RT and dominated. If we can get that out of Flowers, I'll be very happy.
All  
jtfuoco : 12/5/2016 1:16 am : link
the scouting reports said his Technique was bad coming out of school so I was expecting this would happen especially against speed rushers. I think there is still a place for him on this line its just not LT. However the Giants organization refusal to move him is what is baffling. one wonders if he has lost confidence as well as he has turned in to a penalty machine at this point
His reputation is completely earned  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/5/2016 1:24 am : link
and they even let him get away with a few other holds that were not called.

Just a bad game by him.
They need to try him at RT next season  
illmatic : 12/5/2016 1:24 am : link
and upgrade at LT to protect Eli's blind side.
I don't care about what the coaches think  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/5/2016 1:29 am : link
The last time we saw him Will Beatty was a much better LT than Flowers is right now. Flowers has earned a benching for the rest of this season unless he can beat out someone else in practice. The treatment of Beatty around here has been like shooting ourselves in the foot. I'd also like to see Newhouse remain at LG and Jones at Center. Pugh is obviously hurt worse than they want to admit and Richburg has been getting blown up regularly. If Flowers could beat out Jerry or Hart, great. Richburg should play short yardage FB. He can really run for an O-Lineman.
#74 is a perfect number for Flowers  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/5/2016 1:49 am : link
I remember another 74 that used to hold like this guy, John Hicks #74 he was like a clock, he was so reliable on getting a holding
RE: They need to try him at RT next season  
TheGhostofBlueGuy : 12/5/2016 2:10 am : link
In comment 13249124 illmatic said:
Quote:
and upgrade at LT to protect Eli's blind side.


This^. Flowers is not the future at LT. Might even put him at guard to get some interior line push on short yardage.
My hopes Flowers will improve and possibly ascend at LT are dwindling  
Torrag : 12/5/2016 3:19 am : link
From the start many, including myself, saw his skillset as that of a RT. It now appears he'll need to be moved there at some point, possibly sooner than later.

Eli's blindside protection must be upgraded. It's clearly effecting him and frankly the timing and execution of the entire offense. Even when he isn't 'beaten' on a play he rarely provides a feeling of security. You can almost feel Eli's inner clock ticking, telling him to get the ball out now, or I may never have the chance...
Why no fullback or blocking tight end  
grizz299 : 12/5/2016 3:39 am : link
would that make Flowers look better?
And most of all...why the heck did we sign Beatty.?
Paulie  
Carl in CT : 12/5/2016 3:58 am : link
I remember that too. That means you are no spring chicken.
They have played Andrus Peat at guard off and on since drafted  
atb63 : 12/5/2016 4:38 am : link
I wish we had the luxury, or that Flowers was more open to playing another position in general. There were a couple plays where I said aloud "he needs to play RT." Not really sure if it's Flowers per se, or if it's something that is pushed by the F.O. Either way, we improve 100% with a true LT. I still believe in Flowers at RT. He has a lot of work to put in and improving to do if he wants to keep that LT money.

Last thing I noticed, he seems to be a lot less vocal and demonstrative on the field this year. His fire on the field was a pleasant surprise last year. Could he be in his own head with the penalties and criticisms?
After 4 years of rebuilding the OL what do we have.  
joe48 : 12/5/2016 4:53 am : link
Pugh is our best player who seems to be always hurt. Richburg is undersized and gets pushed all over the field. Flowers is a back up at best. Newhouse and Jerry are back ups. Our aging QB is a pocket passer who needs protection. We are a passing team with a flawed receiving group.
The window for Eli has pretty much shut and we need to start building for the future.
He sure gets  
rocco8112 : 12/5/2016 5:10 am : link
called for a lot of holds and those kill drives and today gift wrapped two points for the opposition.

Eli also is often ubder durress and we can not run. At the moment Flowers seems to be a liability at LT and as stated prior it might be worth looking at him at another line position.

Those holding calls are getting old though. Right now, the pick if intended to fill the LT spot long term does look like a whiff.



RE: They need to try him at RT next season  
jeff57 : 12/5/2016 5:17 am : link
In comment 13249124 illmatic said:
Quote:
and upgrade at LT to protect Eli's blind side.

This.
RE: He sure gets  
TheGhostofBlueGuy : 12/5/2016 5:46 am : link
In comment 13249159 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
called for a lot of holds and those kill drives and today gift wrapped two points for the opposition.

Eli also is often ubder durress and we can not run. At the moment Flowers seems to be a liability at LT and as stated prior it might be worth looking at him at another line position.

Those holding calls are getting old though. Right now, the pick if intended to fill the LT spot long term does look like a whiff.




Spot on, Rocco. That hold for the safety negated a great throw and run after catch by OBJ. 3rd and 14. OBJ gets 15 and was pumped. The subsequent drive nets a FG by the Steelers. 5-0. All from the hold in the endzone.
My eyes don't lie. Flowers is not an NFL LT. They need to  
Blue21 : 12/5/2016 6:26 am : link
wake up an realize it. First round whiff or not. He's not helping himself or the Giants. He needs to go back to RT at some point.
Reese has proven incapable of building an offensive line  
joeinpa : 12/5/2016 6:32 am : link
He won two Super Bowls with Ernie s line. He also neglects a position that is a quarterback s best friend in this NFL, Tight End.

But that s ok because he neglects the position on defense that can defend those tight ends he never drafts, line backer
joe  
atb63 : 12/5/2016 6:37 am : link
definitely an odd strategy, when you lay it out like that.
Flowers is not pretty but  
bronxgiant : 12/5/2016 6:49 am : link
this is all on Eli and the coach. The line was getting off the ball and giving the running backs room to run yet all we did was stupid pass after pass. He had plenty of time. Shoot the Pitt QB had pressure the whole day also and did not shit the bed.
Yes, but how are the other OL doing that we could have drafted  
ZogZerg : 12/5/2016 7:03 am : link
at that spot? Because, Reese was going OL no matter what last year.
I think Flowers will improve a little,  
Simms11 : 12/5/2016 7:28 am : link
but this might be what we have now. His punch is better this year and that could be attributed to Solari, but I think he's playing out of position. Is he a better RT or RG? I personally would leave Hart at RT. He seems to be doing the job there.
I hated the pick at the time and still do  
The_Boss : 12/5/2016 7:30 am : link
No way he was the 9th best player in the 2015 draft. Not even close, especially with Todd Gurley sitting there. And if you take an OT who you project as a LT, he had better possess an elite skill set which will help procure him in becoming a great player. Does anyone truly think Flowers will develop into a great player? His technique is awful and that was his knock going back to Miami. He got by with his size and strength. I don't see it. He's probably a RG in all seriousness.

I'd rather have taken Gurley and allowed Reese to fill out the OL with a different combination of players in subsequent rounds in 2015, this past draft, and FA this past spring.
He's just 22 years old  
rdt288 : 12/5/2016 7:42 am : link
Have some patience

That said he was awful yesterday
Who says he can succeed at RT?  
Renton : 12/5/2016 7:46 am : link
His technique is atrocious. At what point will he learn the basic technique of being a tackle? He sure did not learn in college. Maybe he tunes out all of his coaches, because it's now more than halfway through his 2nd season, and he still stinks. He actually looks like Frankenstein. He does the same exact thing - lunges forward with his arms straight out and his footwork is slow and plodding, hence Frankenstein.

So, is he really going to succeed at RT? I'm not so sure.
RE: Flowers is not pretty but  
SethFromAstoria : 12/5/2016 7:53 am : link
In comment 13249185 bronxgiant said:
Quote:
this is all on Eli and the coach. The line was getting off the ball and giving the running backs room to run yet all we did was stupid pass after pass. He had plenty of time. Shoot the Pitt QB had pressure the whole day also and did not shit the bed.


the running backs ran 15 less times than Bell. He had plenty of time my ass. Watch the game again. And yet the hold for the safety doesn't happen if the ball is on their side of the field on a defensive PI
RE: Flowers is not pretty but  
dep026 : 12/5/2016 7:54 am : link
In comment 13249185 bronxgiant said:
Quote:
this is all on Eli and the coach. The line was getting off the ball and giving the running backs room to run yet all we did was stupid pass after pass. He had plenty of time. Shoot the Pitt QB had pressure the whole day also and did not shit the bed.


Flower gave up...

7 pressures
5 hurries
Holding penalty for a safety
A sack
False start...


But other than that... it's all eli's fault.
RE: RE: Flowers is not pretty but  
Renton : 12/5/2016 7:59 am : link
In comment 13249222 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13249185 bronxgiant said:


Quote:


this is all on Eli and the coach. The line was getting off the ball and giving the running backs room to run yet all we did was stupid pass after pass. He had plenty of time. Shoot the Pitt QB had pressure the whole day also and did not shit the bed.



Flower gave up...

7 pressures
5 hurries
Holding penalty for a safety
A sack
False start...


But other than that... it's all eli's fault.


Manning was uncomfortable because his line is a sieve. He's under constant pressure and knows he has about 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. It's a joke.
Well i will giv ehim one pass  
weeg in the bronx : 12/5/2016 8:01 am : link
that was not a hold in the end zone. Other than that he was awful. And I agree - the fault was not in drafting him but in insisting in playing him at a position he was not ready to play.
I  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 8:03 am : link
will let him grow at his young age and assess in a year or two..

Period
It will likely take the off season  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/5/2016 8:05 am : link
but I think they should look at Flowers at ORG. He'd get just as exposed at ORT, but now he;d be learning the get off on the other foot. Next camp, I'd plug him into ORG to see if he has a chance to be special there.
RE: I  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 8:14 am : link
In comment 13249235 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
will let him grow at his young age and assess in a year or two..

Period


Yup.
Meanwhile in Seattle  
HomerJones45 : 12/5/2016 8:23 am : link
They destroyed Carolina with a UDFA rookie LT whose entire college football career was 28 snaps at W KY as a TE because he was a basketball player.

Meanwhile we get to watch our "mean nasty" #1 pick flounder around during what appears to be an interminable learning period.

I hate joining the mob mentality especially after a loss,  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2016 8:26 am : link
but I'm growing tired of defending Flowers. He had a gutsy performance playing last year on a high ankle sprain which provided a reasonable excuse for his inability to handle speed. But this year his technique has not improved. He doesn't anchor and keep his feet under him, instead he ends up bending and lowering his head which leads to desperation holds when he is beat.

He's young and plays with a mean streak so I still think there is hope for him. But unless he dedicates himself to fixing his technique, there is no future for him at any tackle position. Nowadays, speed rushers are not just relegated to the RDE. I think he would benefit moving to the interior.
always thought  
mdc1 : 12/5/2016 8:26 am : link
some have questioned Flowers work ethic unless mistaken.
Why do some  
ryanmkeane : 12/5/2016 8:27 am : link
people literally want Flowers to be bad? Are you hoping that he sucks every game so that you can make threads like this to call out Reese? Why don't you start a thread every time Beckham wins a game for us? Or Collins? Where are you then?
How Much Longer  
NJLCO : 12/5/2016 8:33 am : link
Flowers has how much longer to prove he is our LT
Jerry has how many more whiff's or miss assignments?
When Pugh comes back put him at LT and put the guy from up north at RG and use Beatty as an extra blocker. How much more could that hurt us? Flowers should not be starting period and I do not care how old he is or do we think that in the next 7 days a light switch is going to come on and he gets it? As O'Hare said over a month ago that this guy is a coach killer. He is going to get another OL coach fired because Reese has to cover his ass on the pick
He was the weakest link on the line  
Heisenberg : 12/5/2016 8:37 am : link
yesterday.
I  
AcidTest : 12/5/2016 8:37 am : link
agree with the general sentiment that Flowers is probably not a LT. It is just his second year, but his technique is still atrocious, and his feet in pass protection are almost as bad as those of one James Brewer. Bad feet are a common problem with almost all our OL. We don't have any "dancing elephants."

The Giants should give Flowers more help, or bench him in favor of Beatty. Maybe next year they can try him at guard or perhaps RT, but I don't think he has a future at tackle, certainly not LT.

I also agree that RIchburg has regressed. He gets no push, but does get pushed back a lot.

Poor OL play is the biggest reason the offense is moribund.
i don't understand  
gmenatlarge : 12/5/2016 8:47 am : link
why they can't get him some help when he is struggling with either a chip by a RB or TE.
HomerJones  
atb63 : 12/5/2016 8:49 am : link
RE: Seattle OT, two words - Tom Cable
evaluations  
area junc : 12/5/2016 8:49 am : link
I agree our front office seems completely lost. we forced the Flowers and Richburg pick. Pugh is just OK but is a welcome addition. The Giants should've recognized Flowers hideous technique and A-not drafted him at #9 and/or B-played him at G early until if/when his technique improved. The Giants started Petitgout at G too. The Rams quickly recognized Greg Robinson wasn't getting it done at T and moved him to G. you do what you have to do, you don't try to save face.

I've argued that since we do nothing but run up the middle, we should have 2 pure pass blocking OTs and some blasters inside. The OTs aren't asked to do anything more than steer DEs wide on run plays. The real work is being done by the interior players and that's where Flowers could really help us - rooting DTs out, and creating some creases inside. But no, we just have to keep him at LT.
I agree with those saying  
JFIB : 12/5/2016 8:59 am : link
Move Flowers to RG. We may find the road grader we have needed. His technical flaws would be less of an issue there and god awful JJ could go to the bench. Beatty to LT and EF to RG.
RE: evaluations  
siena16 : 12/5/2016 9:01 am : link
In comment 13249342 area junc said:
Quote:
I agree our front office seems completely lost. we forced the Flowers and Richburg pick. Pugh is just OK but is a welcome addition. The Giants should've recognized Flowers hideous technique and A-not drafted him at #9 and/or B-played him at G early until if/when his technique improved. The Giants started Petitgout at G too. The Rams quickly recognized Greg Robinson wasn't getting it done at T and moved him to G. you do what you have to do, you don't try to save face.

I've argued that since we do nothing but run up the middle, we should have 2 pure pass blocking OTs and some blasters inside. The OTs aren't asked to do anything more than steer DEs wide on run plays. The real work is being done by the interior players and that's where Flowers could really help us - rooting DTs out, and creating some creases inside. But no, we just have to keep him at LT.


I've been saying Reese should have been shown the door last year. His lack of leadership and the Defense he left a two time super Bowl coach to play with last year was an embarrassment. His drafts on the O-Line have been below average
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