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Can we have a non-agenda driven discussion on what Reese has

Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 9:58 am
accomplished?

Okay, he shit the bed with the S situation in '09. He has admitted as much. Probably slow to work on the OL, but has drafted rather well with Pugh, Richburg and Flowers despite some work in progress there. You hate Flowers? Fine..I'll wait for this aggressive, 21 year-old to have another season or two before weighing in and even then, would I really know what I'm seeing from TV? I'll trust in Solari's ongoing work with him before disparaging his play..Maybe ORT will be his landing place. The Giants know better than I do..

We had to re-build arguably the worse D in history and he has done a tremendous job in just one off season. Last year's "lousy" trade up for Collins, is suddenly not so lousy..

He tried to fortify the OL with FAs. He either was unable to quickly pull the trigger on some OL while putting together his D, or some FAs simply did not want to come here, or many were simply damaged goods..

With his recent drafting record, we can all pretty much assume he'll go Offense this offseason and possibly lure some young FA OL talent..

He drafted a TE in Adams. Were there any TEs available in the draft that could have helped us this year that we should have taken in the early rounds instead of who we took? How about FA? Who was available that would have made a huge difference? Maybe along with the OL, he'll draft one high next year? No idea..

So what GMs have done a better job of late? Dallas? Perhaps..The Pats? BB turns shit into gold, so who knows what that story is..Ozzie Newsome? Check his record the last bunch of years..I'm sure you can name some, but few of them could turn things around outside of possibly Dallas, imo..

Bottom line? After some lousy draft choices, bad injury luck and some omissions he has admitted to, he has been doing some fine work here, especially on D, imo

Perhaps other complaints should be pinned on possible choice of OC?PC(some borne out of necessity to mitigate some weaknesses at present)?Possible HC choice? Something else? Just asking.

The bashing gets old and is outdated imv..

Here are the big TE signings this past offseason  
weeg in the bronx : 12/5/2016 10:08 am : link
60 Antonio Gates TE SD SD (2 years, $12 million)
81 Ladarius Green TE SD PIT (4 years, $24 million)
88 Dwayne Allen TE IND IND (4 years, $29 million)
91 Zach Miller TE CHI CHI (2 years, $6 million)
98 Coby Fleener TE IND NO (5 years, $36 million)

then of course you have guys like Bennett or Vernon Davis, even a Ben Watson. All of who are superior to anyone on our roster. We do not have an NFL caliber TE on our roster.
I've been a big proponent of the anti-Reese faction here  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2016 10:08 am : link
on BBI but I have no agenda. What kind of agenda would I have from Ottawa, Canada. Hell, I want Reese or whoever is in that job to succeed but when you look at his record since 2012, it is bad and I don't understand why we can't examine this by looking at the facts.

For years, he ignored the defence and we saw the result of that. We had to spend a ridiculous amount of money to fix that problem.

Now, it seems the same has been done on the offense with the OL, TE and RB positions. Again, this is just fact based on performance. As Troy Aikman noted yesterday, the Giants had only 14 sacks going into the game because of Eli not because the OL is doing a good job. We cannot run the ball to any great extent and we really have only one threat...albeit a great one.

I don't understand when everyone gets so upset when these facts are pointed out. Hell, it cost TC his job. Does anyone believe we would not be a better team right now had this spending spree been done under TC's watch. It is obvious the game planning and play calling have suffered dramatically not to mention the use of basically one personnel set 95% of the time. This is all the result of a porous offensive line.

We can all point to the fact that he has ignored drafting LBs or TE and no more perfect example was set than yesterday when the Steelers best offensive player, Antonio Brown, was held in check but Ben had other options besides Brown. He had two TEs that did the job plus a great running back.

A coach can only coach what he is given and what has Mac been given in terms of offensive talent. I am not excusing him by the way...but the fact is unless OBJ is out of this world, we have no chance. The selection and gathering of players is Reese's responsibility and he has failed in this regard. Comparing him to other GMs whose teams are not doing so well is ridiculous. We are Giant fans and I want the Giants to succeed...I don't give a damn about other teams.

Reese has been a reactive GM, only doing something when things get really desperate. His drafting and his assemblage of depth talent has been horrible, in my opinion. But I certainly have no agenda...I wish he had done a great job, would be thrilled. Fact is, he hasn't.
In a league of parity that's designed for teams to go from worst....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 10:11 am : link
to first in one offseason, and we see teams do it all the time, we've spent several years in a row as worst.

I can't fully get behind Jerry Reese until he builds a competent offensive line, something that he's been struggling to do for nearly five years.

In addition, it's hard to watch an offense that's struggling to protect the QB, without a TE, without an every down RB, and a couple of slot receivers backing up OBJ.

If we're being realistic, we have a lot of holes that still need to be filled on offense. And you have to ask, how did we get there?

That's not bias, those are the facts.

He fixed the defense last offseason. He gets credit for that. I guess I'll wait and see what he does this offseason in regards to offense.
Its his late round draft picks  
chuckydee9 : 12/5/2016 10:11 am : link
that are the issues.. we get the least out of our late round picks.. some look promising but in the end most of them don't even end up as JAGS.. Dallas picked a corner late in the draft this year and he has been just as good as our 1st round pick.. In the future Eli Apple could turn out to be much better.. I expect him to but recent drafts aren't much better..
I think it's unfair to say we don't have an NFL caliber TE  
jcn56 : 12/5/2016 10:12 am : link
I don't think Tye is any great shakes, and Adams is still a rookie - but Tye's at least a decent blocker and receiver.

You can make the argument he's undervalued the position, which would be fair. The Giants had great success while spending little in terms of resources on the TE position, but that hasn't been the case for awhile and they should probably reconsider (see LB).
The issue is most of BBI thinks it's still 1986 and  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 10:16 am : link
struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about.

The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league.
I have no desire to bash Reese.  
Boy Cord : 12/5/2016 10:16 am : link
What I want to talk about is what Mara said or implied after he fired Coughlin. My interpretation was missing the playoffs in 2016 is unacceptable and Reese will be held accountable.

The OL is a mess and it's filled with Reese draft picks and FA signings. Add TE to the pile as well. The offense is anemic and flat out unable to function at times. Eli rarely ever has a clean pocket and the running game is historically weak.

On the other hand, Reese nailed the defense in FA and it looks like he did well with Apple and Thompson in the draft.

It's a bottom line business. The question is, if the Giants miss the playoffs, what happens to Reese?

JCN56...the reason we had success  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2016 10:16 am : link
with undervalued TEs was because we had Mike Pope. But we let Pope go and he's now with the devil's team. Again, bad management decisions.
So you're going to wait on Flowers  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 10:18 am : link
until his contract is over? He has a 4 year deal, almost half way through and he's garbage.

I think the Giants need to try another spot on the line or bench him. It is impacting Eli and the offense has no rhythm.

Have we learned nothing from "scholarship" players like Sinorice Moss or Ramses Barden?

If football teams in the NFL learn nothing else from the Patriots, learn just cut the cord when it's time to move a player (McCourty from CB to safety) or time to move on from the player completely (Chandler Jones, etc.).

Biggest knock on Reese  
Josh in the City : 12/5/2016 10:19 am : link
is his failure on the offensive line and LB core. We've wasted prime years of the best QB in franchise history by putting him behind one of the worst olines in the league for the last 6-7 years. This team could have had an opportunity to make multiple playoff runs but the oline has been the achilles heal for far too long.
I don't get the agenda driven concept  
joeinpa : 12/5/2016 10:21 am : link
other than I want the Giants to be good.

But to your points about Reese:

You are correct,Reese has rebuilt the defense. Question how did it get so depleted in the first place.

Reese has not shown he can develop an offensive line. I hope you are right about Pugh, Richburg and Flowers, but up to now, his two championships were with Ernie's lines.

Reese continues to undervalue the tight end position despite the fact that all around the league tight ends are a huge part of good offenses.

And as befuddling as it seems, he also undervalues the very position that can help minimize the impact these tight ends have against the Giants, that being linebackers.

If the Giants do not make the play offs this season, and that should not be the case, Reese will have had 4 years since his latest success. That resume will be 3 awful seasons, and a total collapse. That should be grounds for a change.

So I guess, if I were the owner, the next 4 games determined his future with the team.



I honestly don't get..  
Danthebigbluefan : 12/5/2016 10:22 am : link
The constant Reese-bashing that happens so frequently. Sure, he's had some misses, just like any other GM/Front office has. But if you compare his drafting to the other organizations in the league, you'd be hard-pressed to make a case he hasn't made some fantastic draft picks.

If the Giants don't get some incredibly lousy luck in terms of injuries and career-ending accidents the Giants and JR would be lauded as one of if not the best drafting teams in the league.

What I don't get about those who criticize JR for our current OL is.. Who was he supposed to go out and get? It's not like an established top-tier OL heading into the prime of his career is available in free agency on a regular basis. I'd argue it's extremely rare. Over the past 5 years he's had the opportunity to take OL 3 times by having a relatively high draft pick with a quality OL available when the Giants are selecting. Those players are Flowers, Richburg and Pugh.

Do people just expect every OL to pan out? Look at the rest of the OL taken in those drafts and tell me who you can resoundingly say is a guy we dropped the ball on drafting?

I think a lot of people need to realize the league is a lot different now, you can't just draft a massive kid with great talent and expect them to step right in and play Pro Bowl calibre football. It takes time for these guys to adapt to the pro game, to develop their skills. Hell 2 years ago people were saying Pugh was a bust now everyone thinks he's our best OL.

Arm-chair quarterbacking is really easy to do when you aren't looking below surface level at the nature of how offenses run these days. I'll give an example: 5-10 years ago everyone would say "you can't draft a WR and expect them to make any impact until at least year 2, probably year 3." Meanwhile linemen were going extremely high in drafts because everyone knew they can typically step right in and play very well in a starting role.

Now? Rookie WR's are easily inserted into pass-heavy offenses and it is the linemen who are taking more time to adapt and develop their skills because they are being asked to pass protect a lot more. And against far more athletic d-linemen, some being veterans who are just more educated, in far more sophisticated defensive fronts that take a great deal of experience and intelligence.

Tyron Smith's first 2 years in the NFL were very hard for him as he had to adapt and develop as a tackle. Now he's arguably the best at his position in the NFL. Reminds me a lot of Flowers. Not saying they're the same or Flowers will even become as good as Smith is now. But the kid is 22.
RE: JCN56...the reason we had success  
jcn56 : 12/5/2016 10:24 am : link
In comment 13249590 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
with undervalued TEs was because we had Mike Pope. But we let Pope go and he's now with the devil's team. Again, bad management decisions.


I don't disagree - and replacing him with Gilbride Jr. just made no sense (seeing as he had no experience ever playing or coaching TE).

I don't know where some of these calls are coming from, though. Was that TC? Mara? Reese? You guys just can't assume the GM controls everything. He's accountable for the roster, but how much direct responsibility he has over position coaches is anyone's guess.
Results, Dan, results...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2016 10:27 am : link
that is the issue. The results say Reese has done a poor job...you can what if all you like but we are trying to deal with the facts here and comparing him to other incompetent GMs makes no sense.

Reese has done a lousy job and, as mentioned above, basically ruined Eli's career since SB 46. And it's not just the Oline..it is TE position, RB, another viable receiver (Shepard has been okay, not great, maybe he will be next year).

NFL history shows that if you do have someone who can dominate middle of the field you are in trouble. So, my bashing of Reese is based simply on facts and results. As someone said so smartly above, this is a results based business and, on that basis, he deserves to be fired if we do not make the playoffs.
Guys.. all due respect..  
Danthebigbluefan : 12/5/2016 10:27 am : link
These things are cyclical. I'm sure everyone was wondering how the Giants got so bad under Accorsi in the late 90's. You have to understand there are a lot of moving parts in building a championship football team, let alone a competitive one.

Do you all really expect Reese to be able to plug in younger or arguably less-talented players once certain positions become depleted whether by old-age (retirement), free agency, or injury?

He can't go out every offseason and spend the kind of money like he did this year. There is a process to the replenishment of talent on any roster. It doesn't happen in one offseason completely across the board at every position of need.
Can't take the time to go into every detail  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 10:28 am : link
but IMO, Reese has done more good than bad, especially the last few years. Our defense was abysmal last season, and part of that is on him from our prior years drafts, and a lot of it is pure bad lack with injuries. So he went out and fixed it, and he 100% without any really argument, fixed this defense. Spending $200 million usually doesn't work out but he overspent on players entering their prime and should be commended for taking a calculated risk.

The offense? That's on everyone. Its on Reese for not getting better talent, but its on this coaching staff for not getting the most out of what it has to work with. Its also on the players themselves not getting better (Flowers) or regressing (Richburg).

In sum, I'd take Reese over most other GM's since I'm looking at other NFL rosters and I really only see a handful of teams (Pats, Broncos, Steelers, Cowboys, Seahawks off the top of my head) that have better rosters than us. I'm sure there are a couple others but its atleast arguable with some of them since teams like Arizona and Carolina have massive issues as well.
If you do NOT have someone who  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2016 10:28 am : link
can dominate middle of the field
RE: Results, Dan, results...  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 10:30 am : link
In comment 13249627 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
that is the issue. The results say Reese has done a poor job...you can what if all you like but we are trying to deal with the facts here and comparing him to other incompetent GMs makes no sense.

Reese has done a lousy job and, as mentioned above, basically ruined Eli's career since SB 46. And it's not just the Oline..it is TE position, RB, another viable receiver (Shepard has been okay, not great, maybe he will be next year).

NFL history shows that if you do have someone who can dominate middle of the field you are in trouble. So, my bashing of Reese is based simply on facts and results. As someone said so smartly above, this is a results based business and, on that basis, he deserves to be fired if we do not make the playoffs.


You are miserable. You aren't posting facts. You are saying we are bad at X so that must be (insert person)'s fault. You are the definition of someone who talks out of their ass.

Newsflash, there's a boatload of blame to be passed around. Keep beating your drum though, its all you know how to do.
This just isn't true  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 10:31 am : link
Quote:
Tyron Smith's first 2 years in the NFL were very hard for him as he had to adapt and develop as a tackle.


Smith started at RT from day 1 as a rookie with Doug Free at LT. After his rookie year Smith proved to be much better than Free so they swapped them in year 2. And while there was a slight adjustment period from right to left tackle comparing Tyron Smith to Ereck Flowers is beyond taking some liberties.

Actually, while everyone commends Dallas left and right for  
jcn56 : 12/5/2016 10:33 am : link
their drafting, what to me signaled their turnaround was their decision to hire several former head coaches for each aspect of the game. They overpaid to do so, but that strategy made sense seeing as you don't have a cap on coaching salaries.

The results have been better than you'd expect with some marginal talent. Yes, they did ply a lot of resources into their OL, but they've managed to get good return on meager resources on the defensive side of the ball.
I think we would all agree..  
Danthebigbluefan : 12/5/2016 10:35 am : link
Including JR and probably everyone in the Giants organization this is a results driven business.

But again, my only question is this: who did Reese drop the ball on by not going out and getting them through free agency or the draft? What would the price have been?

And again, what if David Wilson doesn't have his career ended? What if Kenny Phillips' knee doesn't end his career? What if Chad Jones doesn't get in that car accident? What if Nicks' knee didn't end his? Cruz having to go on 3-year hiatus because of his injury? JPP blows his hand up and basically forfeits an entire year? The list goes on..

I'm not saying these are excuses per-se, but they certainly need to be taken into account when people fly off the handle about how poor a job Reese has done in drafting and filling personnel need through free agency.

I would respectfully and humbly disagree.

Heck look as recently as the past 2 year where he's drafted what many expect to be the future of our safety position through 2 drafts! None of which are first round picks. But, Thompson & Thompson (write that one down) are injured so we don't have them playing.

TE is a disaster but again.. who the heck is REALLY a good TE we should have drafted or gone after??

Let's all relax, take it easy, it's one loss in a game a lot of people didn't expect us to win considering Pittsburgh's need for that win to stay in the playoff hunt.

I still think the Giants can win a SB this year, with the talent we have on this roster as it is. The NFC does not scare me in the least and I don't see anyone in the AFC that makes me tremble either.
pjcas...  
Danthebigbluefan : 12/5/2016 10:39 am : link
by his standards, he was not very good in his first 2 years (though he is an anomaly and was still effective at his position).

RE: pjcas...  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 10:43 am : link
In comment 13249682 Danthebigbluefan said:
Quote:
by his standards, he was not very good in his first 2 years (though he is an anomaly and was still effective at his position).


By his standards sure. His third year in the league he had 1 holding penalty and allowed 1 sack. He's been a perennial all-pro since his 3rd year in a position voted on more by reputation than maybe any other position. Hard to break into.

I'm just saying while I absolutely agree the book is not closed on Ereck Flowers, you're dreaming if you are using Smith as the comp. I won't pretend to be a Tyron Smith expert or an OL expert, but my sense is Flowers gets moved to another OL spot before he experiences Smith-like success.

And that isn't a knock on Reese. Look at the 2013 draft. Many of those OL drafted before Pugh to be LT's are not LT's. Pugh is a guard. I just think move Flowers because he's hurting the team. Not because of any agenda against Reese.

Problem is they probably don't have a better option than Flowers. Beatty just has to be in terrible shape, at his worst he wasn't as bad as Flowers.
Can we stop with the excuse Wagon  
Bluesbreaker : 12/5/2016 10:47 am : link
Even his so called great picks in the first two rounds
are becoming questionable .
We don't have 200 million to fix the offense as we had to
with the defense .
Watch as the window closes on Eli because of the so called
plan to rebuild the offensive line . Whatever year that
happens we will see what we have in goldenboy Nassib that
he wasted two picks on ...
How about getting rid of TC and keeping so many of the
coaches . Instead of cleaning house is that also on the
owners . Give me one good reason why Quinn is still here
and who again is our offensive coordinator ?
TGJ  
ryanmkeane : 12/5/2016 10:53 am : link
you really are a piece of shit. Results? Reese has 2 Super Bowls with picks that largely factored into those. I'd say those results are pretty damn good results.
8 -4 and he still gets crucified  
bronxgiant : 12/5/2016 10:54 am : link
Team is competitive in each and every game Reese is called out. If Eli played just half as good as previews years this record would be even better. Still Reese is crucified.
TGJ  
ryanmkeane : 12/5/2016 10:56 am : link
you will look back at your weird fucking tirades today and feel like a jackass. This team is 8-4 you realize that right?
The same problems every year  
jeff57 : 12/5/2016 10:56 am : link
TE, OL, LB. See a pattern?
My biggest Reese issue is FB/H-Back  
BlueHurricane : 12/5/2016 10:59 am : link
We had two good to very good FB/H-Back types on our roster in camp. Both got hurt and are out for the year. How do you not bring in a replacement???? The camp players and the signing of Will Johnson shows they wanted/planned on using the position. I am sick of seeing single back sets and shot guns on short yardage. Shit don't work in December in the North East.
RE: The same problems every year  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 11:02 am : link
In comment 13249740 jeff57 said:
Quote:
TE, OL, LB. See a pattern?


You sure last year we didn't have swiss cheese of a d-line and secondary?
No one talking about  
Fish : 12/5/2016 11:06 am : link
the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster?
Objective proof that Reese is a bad GM...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2016 11:08 am : link
Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed.

Now, that is fact.
RE: Objective proof that Reese is a bad GM...  
Giantology : 12/5/2016 11:09 am : link
In comment 13249781 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed.

Now, that is fact.


Or injured? Troll harder, asshole
RE: Objective proof that Reese is a bad GM...  
jcn56 : 12/5/2016 11:10 am : link
In comment 13249781 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed.

Now, that is fact.


That's objective proof? Where? Which players weren't signed to second contracts that went on to outperform elsewhere? Aside from Linval Joseph, anyone else?

Or do you mean we should have signed the corpses of Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Phillips and David Wilson to second contracts after their bodies gave out on them?
RE: RE: The same problems every year  
jeff57 : 12/5/2016 11:10 am : link
In comment 13249759 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13249740 jeff57 said:


Quote:


TE, OL, LB. See a pattern?



You sure last year we didn't have swiss cheese of a d-line and secondary?

I said same problems every year.
RE: No one talking about  
BlueHurricane : 12/5/2016 11:11 am : link
In comment 13249774 Fish said:
Quote:
the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster?


Look up two posts from your original one Fishie ;)
RE: RE: No one talking about  
Fish : 12/5/2016 11:16 am : link
In comment 13249792 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
In comment 13249774 Fish said:


Quote:


the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster?



Look up two posts from your original one Fishie ;)


How did you sneak that in there?
....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 12/5/2016 11:21 am : link
Most disturbing is this offensive lines features 2 first round picks and a high second round pick. That's more investment than most teams get.
Two Super Bowls  
Rflairr : 12/5/2016 11:28 am : link
Thanks for playing
RE: My biggest Reese issue is FB/H-Back  
Fish : 12/5/2016 11:30 am : link
In comment 13249750 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
We had two good to very good FB/H-Back types on our roster in camp. Both got hurt and are out for the year. How do you not bring in a replacement???? The camp players and the signing of Will Johnson shows they wanted/planned on using the position. I am sick of seeing single back sets and shot guns on short yardage. Shit don't work in December in the North East.


Exactly. The I-formation is long gone. Or any power running plays are done here.
Giants aren't getting beat right now because of talent  
Rflairr : 12/5/2016 11:30 am : link
It's the guys on the headsets.
RE: The issue is most of BBI thinks it's still 1986 and  
Jesse B : 12/5/2016 11:46 am : link
In comment 13249588 drkenneth said:
Quote:
struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about.

The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league.


Bingo. Giants ol is average or better.

Dallas Oakland Buffalo have good Olines everyone else is pretty Similar
RE: RE: The issue is most of BBI thinks it's still 1986 and  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 11:50 am : link
In comment 13249930 Jesse B said:
Quote:
In comment 13249588 drkenneth said:


Quote:


struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about.

The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league.



Bingo. Giants ol is average or better.

Dallas Oakland Buffalo have good Olines everyone else is pretty Similar


Yup.
I prefer the agenda driven discussions  
Deej : 12/5/2016 11:52 am : link
And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.
RE: I prefer the agenda driven discussions  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 11:54 am : link
In comment 13249942 Deej said:
Quote:
And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.


Lol
RE: I prefer the agenda driven discussions  
Jay in Toronto : 12/5/2016 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13249942 Deej said:
Quote:
And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.


Man those digs at Schwartz are getting old.

Let go of it already!

;)
Part of the o-line problem is that as GM you have to play the hand  
Bob in Newburgh : 12/5/2016 12:43 pm : link
you were dealt as far as the availability of prospects.

Stellar LTs are often not available to mediocre, as opposed to bad, teams and sometimes not even then.

In hindsight, you could argue for a signing of Okung, but I honestly believe that JR was taking the long view and did not consider the Giants to seriously challenge this year.

I consider Flowers development to be key for this group. If he is not an LT, I think we are in trouble unless we get lucky.
if you take the semi long game approach  
djm : 12/5/2016 12:50 pm : link
and MOVE on from the past, the Giants are fine. They are decent to good now and should be even better next season and beyond.

IF you want to focus on 2012-2015 and bitch about a bad draft 2011-2012 draft period and leave out the injuries to good drafted players in the 2008-2010 range, have at it. But it's a new era now and the young talent brought in from 2013-present day is taking shape. Giants have had a lot of hits lately. With cap space and continued solid drafting no reason to think the Giants can't field a pretty scary team next season.

If they collapse here down the stretch it will leave a bad taste in our mouths but they haven't collapsed yet. ONe loss doesn't equal 4.

Just get to wins. Develop a winning culture here again. If they do that I will be happy with the current build.
just get to 10 wins  
djm : 12/5/2016 12:51 pm : link
...11 would be even nicer. 10 is a must in my view.
I don't think you have to have an agenda  
Mike from Ohio : 12/5/2016 12:52 pm : link
to have a pro-Reese or anti-Reese view. It's a difference of opinion.

You can look at things two ways. Let's take Eric Flowers. Reese spent a top 10 pick on the offensive line which genuinely everyone thought was needed. he was a highly regarded prospect from a big college program. You could stop there and say "great job addressing the line" and argue Flowers' play is not on him. Or you can take the other approach, and say he spent a top 10 pick that so far is not living up to what most would expect. Then you can Reese have it for poor drafting. Neither is right or wrong, its a matter of perspective.

Reese went into the offseason with the (apparent) #1 goal of fixing the offense. That looks to be a resounding success. We also all know the Oline needed help, and so far the Oline has been a disappointment. He has succeeded in some areas and not in others. I think you don't have to be a pro-Reese guy or an anti-Reese guy.
Mike, the Agenda to which I'm referring  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 1:32 pm : link
is the "Reese Sucks" contingent after each loss..They're never around when we win or are playing well, only when we lose..Those are the people I want to get lost, because that's their only mantra. It's tiring and offers zero to a reasoned discussion, pro or con
Let's be honest about the Reese hate  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 1:39 pm : link
the majority of it is from butthurt Coughlin apologists who are still looking for someone to blame, and didn't think he had anything to do with keeping stalwarts on the OL a year too long, or keeping a S&C coach who was costing us valuable resources in the roster replenishment department. Must be nice to not be held accountable for clock management, and having the blame laid at Reese's feet when things go bad. Where were these threads when we were winning? Fucking pathetic.
Coughlin is gone and now irrelevant to the discussion.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:00 pm : link
The bottom line is that the offense is actually way worse than last season despite having the same, or slightly better, personnel.

Can't blame Coughlin anymore.
RE: Coughlin is gone and now irrelevant to the discussion.  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13250326 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
The bottom line is that the offense is actually way worse than last season despite having the same, or slightly better, personnel.

Can't blame Coughlin anymore.

+1
I'd argue a lot of our offensive numbers were very inflated last year  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 2:10 pm : link
how much garbage time was there last year as opposed to this year? Very odd that some posters just chime in fresh off of a loss, wanting Reese's head. We're 8-4. Reese isn't going anywhere this year, and even if we did part ways with him, who out there is better? A contingent here complaining still wants blood, because their boy Coughlin got shown the door, but the guy they think should go just put together a very promising draft class, and this is with what people allege to be very bad coaching from McAdoo. If McAdoo is as shitty as a coach as some of you are purporting, Reese must be a pretty competent GM if we're 8-4 with a coach that's in over his head.
RE: Here are the big TE signings this past offseason  
rasbutant : 12/5/2016 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13249571 weeg in the bronx said:
Quote:
60 Antonio Gates TE SD SD (2 years, $12 million)
81 Ladarius Green TE SD PIT (4 years, $24 million)
88 Dwayne Allen TE IND IND (4 years, $29 million)
91 Zach Miller TE CHI CHI (2 years, $6 million)
98 Coby Fleener TE IND NO (5 years, $36 million)

then of course you have guys like Bennett or Vernon Davis, even a Ben Watson. All of who are superior to anyone on our roster. We do not have an NFL caliber TE on our roster.


Gary Barnidge TE CLE (3 years, $12 million)
This is the guy I would have gone after.

"I tell you, Gary Barnidge is probably one of my most favorite players I've ever coached,'' said DeFilippo before the news was official. "He really is. He's the same guy every day. He's productive. He works, he keeps his mouth shut. If you give him a coaching point, he takes it to heart and it shows on the field. And I'll tell you what, if that report is true, then the Cleveland Browns just got better today.''

Would have worked well with Eli.
To me the failure to develop a solid OL is killing this team.  
yatqb : 12/5/2016 2:12 pm : link
That's on Reese, especially the failure to hit on any later round OL picks. It's not that we didn't invest in the OL. It's that so many of the draft picks and FA he brought in to try to remedy the problem were useless.
Reese  
AcidTest : 12/5/2016 2:16 pm : link
had some bad drafts and FA signings, but has been much better lately, especially with UDFAs. Tye and Adams are more than serviceable. Lewis and Jones may be.

Flowers not working out as a LT will be a blemish on Reese's record. As far as TE is concerned, there were rumors that the Giants wanted Hunter Henry, who was taken by SD.

In any event, Reese isn't going anywhere.
RE: I'd argue a lot of our offensive numbers were very inflated last year  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13250342 David in LA said:
Quote:
how much garbage time was there last year as opposed to this year? Very odd that some posters just chime in fresh off of a loss, wanting Reese's head. We're 8-4. Reese isn't going anywhere this year, and even if we did part ways with him, who out there is better? A contingent here complaining still wants blood, because their boy Coughlin got shown the door, but the guy they think should go just put together a very promising draft class, and this is with what people allege to be very bad coaching from McAdoo. If McAdoo is as shitty as a coach as some of you are purporting, Reese must be a pretty competent GM if we're 8-4 with a coach that's in over his head.


Inflated during garbage time?

The Giants lost 7 games last year when they were leading or tied with less than 2 minutes remaining in the 4th quarter. What garbage time?
Yeah I don't think the garbage time argument really applies  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 2:33 pm : link
Given the fact that the story last season was losing games in the final minutes
The Panthers game and last Eagles game stands out  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 2:42 pm : link
Yes, I'm aware of how many close games we lost last season. Those are games we are winning now. Our defense was historically bad last season, and we made it a priority to address that this year. Our 3 top signings look like home runs, Keenan Robinson was a nice pickup, and our most recent draft class looks very promising, and yet people are pining over TC lamenting we let the wrong guy go.
RE: Let's be honest about the Reese hate  
RobCarpenter : 12/5/2016 2:42 pm : link
In comment 13250280 David in LA said:
Quote:
the majority of it is from butthurt Coughlin apologists who are still looking for someone to blame, and didn't think he had anything to do with keeping stalwarts on the OL a year too long, or keeping a S&C coach who was costing us valuable resources in the roster replenishment department. Must be nice to not be held accountable for clock management, and having the blame laid at Reese's feet when things go bad. Where were these threads when we were winning? Fucking pathetic.


+1

Rome wasn't built in a day, but posters blame Reese for not fixing the O and no one seems to hold Coughlin responsible for having six wins in two straight seasons.

By the way -- Coughlin's record with Jax and the NYG are identical in the last three years of his tenure with each team.
RE: The Panthers game and last Eagles game stands out  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13250420 David in LA said:
Quote:
Yes, I'm aware of how many close games we lost last season. Those are games we are winning now. Our defense was historically bad last season, and we made it a priority to address that this year. Our 3 top signings look like home runs, Keenan Robinson was a nice pickup, and our most recent draft class looks very promising, and yet people are pining over TC lamenting we let the wrong guy go.


Yeah, we lost last year due to defense folding like a cheap suit 7 times. Who assembled that defensive roster? Was that Coughlin, too? You don't think Coughlin could have coached this current team with a 200 million dollar defense?
BB'56  
Reb8thVA : 12/5/2016 2:45 pm : link
With all due respect, you were pursuing an agenda by posting this thread. We all have agendas. That is we all have points of view regarding the state of the team, it's problems and difficulties, and how to fix them.

Those of you who are tired of the Reese bashing, the other side is equally fed up with the excuse making.

I can praise Reese for his moves to strengthen the Defense. They seem to be paying off. Its obvious that he made a calculated move to fix the defense hoping that he could get through another year with the OL and entire offense mostly as is. I will refrain from judgment on that strategy until the end of the year. Even so at 8-4 and playing relevant football in November and December, its not looking like a bad choice. I can also compliment him on what I think will be a very good draft class. His first in a very long time. Even if you want to praise his recent draft classes, they aren't looking so good the farther you move from draft day.

That said, I won't fully get behind Reese until he successfully rebuilds the OL. You can argue whether he has ignored the OL or not. The point seems moot to me. Is it better to ignore a problem or fail to fix it. Truth be told we are not where we need to be on the OL. Some of the blanket statements of the Reese supporters that most NFL teams are having OL problems are ridiculous and not accurate. I know there are 30 teams out there that are better than us at running the ball. Is it asking too much to be up around 18? This team will not be a contender for real until it fixes the OL and can run the ball.

And I'm sure both sides can find some unity on this issue, Can we please get a LB who can reliably cover a TE?
RE: RE: Let's be honest about the Reese hate  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13250421 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13250280 David in LA said:


Quote:


the majority of it is from butthurt Coughlin apologists who are still looking for someone to blame, and didn't think he had anything to do with keeping stalwarts on the OL a year too long, or keeping a S&C coach who was costing us valuable resources in the roster replenishment department. Must be nice to not be held accountable for clock management, and having the blame laid at Reese's feet when things go bad. Where were these threads when we were winning? Fucking pathetic.



+1

Rome wasn't built in a day, but posters blame Reese for not fixing the O and no one seems to hold Coughlin responsible for having six wins in two straight seasons.

By the way -- Coughlin's record with Jax and the NYG are identical in the last three years of his tenure with each team.


Isn't losing your job being held accountable?

Rome wasn't built in a day, and the New York Giants offensive line is taking 5 years and counting to build.
Coughlin is irrelevant to this discussion  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 2:47 pm : link
yet one poster here is the guy that put up that wonderful "McAdoo vs Coughlin offense" thread the last time we lost. At the end of the day, we lost to a good team in a tough road environment, that needed a win much more than us, and also got a major assist from the zebras.
RE: Coughlin is irrelevant to this discussion  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13250436 David in LA said:
Quote:
yet one poster here is the guy that put up that wonderful "McAdoo vs Coughlin offense" thread the last time we lost. At the end of the day, we lost to a good team in a tough road environment, that needed a win much more than us, and also got a major assist from the zebras.


Coughlin is irrelevant to this discussion. As in the one that's taking place about Reese, right now.

Not a completely unrelated thread from about six weeks ago that had nothing to do with Jerry Reese, who was irrelevant to that discussion.
RE: RE: The Panthers game and last Eagles game stands out  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13250427 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13250420 David in LA said:


Quote:


Yes, I'm aware of how many close games we lost last season. Those are games we are winning now. Our defense was historically bad last season, and we made it a priority to address that this year. Our 3 top signings look like home runs, Keenan Robinson was a nice pickup, and our most recent draft class looks very promising, and yet people are pining over TC lamenting we let the wrong guy go.



Yeah, we lost last year due to defense folding like a cheap suit 7 times. Who assembled that defensive roster? Was that Coughlin, too? You don't think Coughlin could have coached this current team with a 200 million dollar defense?


Did Jerry Reese blow up JPP's hand? How come Coughlin never moved on from Palmieri when we had 3 straight seasons of leading the league in losing players to injuries? How come Coughlin gets a pass on injuries when the coach is in charge of hiring the S&C coach, but Reese gets laid the blame for assembling a poor roster? Very inconsistent in how it's applied, that's the very definition of not being held accountable (to the Coughlin apologists, we know the Giants held Coughlin accountable).
But it's well documented that comprehension and context are not your  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:51 pm : link
strong points.
For all the throwing around of the word...  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 2:55 pm : link
"apologist" that you do, did it ever occur to you that maybe it's YOU that are the apologist?

I know... Heady stuff.
On one hand ...  
Beer Man : 12/5/2016 3:00 pm : link
Reese found the pieces to fill out the roster for the two SB runs. EA was just as responsible for the 2007 SB, but Reese gets the GM credit for 2011.

On the other hand, we have found that:
- Reese is terrible drafting in rounds 3-5
- Every position that he has neglected or thought he could address with late round picks and castoffs has come back to bit this team in the ass.
I was heavily in the....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:02 pm : link
"In Reese We Trust Crowd" until 2013. I've had one complaint since, continuously. The offensive line. And it's still f-cked up.

If Reese would fix the Offensive line, I'd be 100% fine with him.

I guess that makes me a "hater".
RE: But it's well documented that comprehension and context are not your  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13250450 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
strong points.


Ok, and for a self proclaimed "big picture guy", you come off as very whiney, with this chicken little "sky is falling" rhetoric. It's blatantly obvious you chime in with these posts to indirectly take shots at Reese and/or McAdoo to hoist your golden boy. Very peculiar you chime in here fresh off a loss, but kept your mouth shut during the winning streak. Reese is certainly not above criticism. A nuanced discussion about the FO is welcome, but it's certainly not coming from you. You showed your ass during your meltdown when we played Carolina.
I like McAdoo. I was happy he was the choice.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:04 pm : link
And I'm only posting about this "fresh off a loss"?

I've been here every week. Are you saying I haven't been complaining about the offensive line for 4 years, now?

It's you that are seeing boogeymen... People out to get Reese's blood.
Britt and David, this thread has accomplished  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 3:07 pm : link
what I was hoping to accomplish (pro and con) absent name-calling, attraction of idiot trolls or personal stuff..Please, let's keep on point. It's not often threads attract decent conversation without it breaking down into war on words..You're both good guys..
Anyways, this is stupid...  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:07 pm : link
Sorry BB56. Leave it to David in LA to derail another otherwise civil discussion.

It's what he does.
Let's see...Coughlin had to be forced  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 3:10 pm : link
to move on from KG, and Fewell. You don't think it's possible at all, that Coughlin might have been the voice in the war room telling the team that he can still get by with the OL he has? There's a group think dynamic to how we procure talent, what does it say that Coughlin was shown the door, and not Reese? This is purely speculative, but it appears that Reese is much more hands on with the draft these days as a directive from Mara.
All completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:12 pm : link
.
I know you're trying to be coy  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 3:21 pm : link
but Coughlin is relevant to this discussion, because this is where the Reese disdain comes from. Again, you showed your ass during the Carolina game.
How is Coughlin relevant to this discussion when he's not even here  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:30 pm : link
anymore?
How long are you going to continue to heap all the blame at his feet?  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:32 pm : link
It will be 2020 and you'll be blaming him for our sh-t offensive line.
Britt, the narrative around Reese changed  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 3:37 pm : link
when it became apparent that Coughlin was most definitely on the hot seat. That's where Coughlin is related to this discussion. Reese is getting the blame for some shit that should have been on the coaches last season.
I'm not heaping blame at Coughlin's feet  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 3:41 pm : link
it's called accountability. I have yet to see you hold TC accountable for a single thing over the course of the past 3 seasons.
Jesus Christ...  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:42 pm : link
He was FIRED! How much more accountable can he be held?
Perhaps you'd like him drawn and quartered?  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:43 pm : link
Drag his carcass down the parade route behind a donkey?
RE: I know you're trying to be coy  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2016 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13250534 David in LA said:
Quote:
but Coughlin is relevant to this discussion, because this is where the Reese disdain comes from. Again, you showed your ass during the Carolina game.


Pics or GTFO?
Can we please move on from the Reese V Coughlin argument?  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 3:45 pm : link
?
I mean, this team is 8-4.  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 3:46 pm : link
Can we get through the rest of the fucking season before having this debate. Again.
RE: Can we please move on from the Reese V Coughlin argument?  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13250610 drkenneth said:
Quote:
?


Yes. For the love of god, please.
RE: RE: I know you're trying to be coy  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13250608 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13250534 David in LA said:


Quote:


but Coughlin is relevant to this discussion, because this is where the Reese disdain comes from. Again, you showed your ass during the Carolina game.



Pics or GTFO?


My comments  
PaulN : 12/5/2016 3:54 pm : link
Are with an agenda, sorry my friend, my agenda is to hopefully get the organization to fire Jerry Reese because I think he stinks, sorry once again. He spent a ton of money to fix the defense because of poor drafting and the reason Eli is struggling is because of Jerry Reese's offensive lines. Where in the world do you see his decent drafts in Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers? You want to wait, until when, 2 more years, LOL, that will just about end the window we have already blown with Eli. I respect your opinion but totally disagree and we are going to see how bad this GM truly is if we keep this merry go round going. His rings are due to EA more then his drafts. Those were EA's offensive lines, EA pass rushers, and EA's QB. I am sick of saying the same fucking shit every year, don't agree and go on wishing it was Reese and not EA, go ahead, but history will show who it was.
RE: My comments  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 3:57 pm : link
In comment 13250634 PaulN said:
Quote:
Are with an agenda, sorry my friend, my agenda is to hopefully get the organization to fire Jerry Reese because I think he stinks, sorry once again. He spent a ton of money to fix the defense because of poor drafting and the reason Eli is struggling is because of Jerry Reese's offensive lines. Where in the world do you see his decent drafts in Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers? You want to wait, until when, 2 more years, LOL, that will just about end the window we have already blown with Eli. I respect your opinion but totally disagree and we are going to see how bad this GM truly is if we keep this merry go round going. His rings are due to EA more then his drafts. Those were EA's offensive lines, EA pass rushers, and EA's QB. I am sick of saying the same fucking shit every year, don't agree and go on wishing it was Reese and not EA, go ahead, but history will show who it was.


Shit this discussion was doing so well until my buddy Paul came on...😜
JPP  
PaulN : 12/5/2016 3:58 pm : link
Was his pick. That is the one guy that he got on that defense. He also added Nicks and Cruz who were very instrumental for our second ring. But I always believe that championships are won with the front lines and this is where he has failed miserably.
RE: My comments  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13250634 PaulN said:
Quote:
Are with an agenda, sorry my friend, my agenda is to hopefully get the organization to fire Jerry Reese because I think he stinks, sorry once again. He spent a ton of money to fix the defense because of poor drafting and the reason Eli is struggling is because of Jerry Reese's offensive lines. Where in the world do you see his decent drafts in Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers? You want to wait, until when, 2 more years, LOL, that will just about end the window we have already blown with Eli. I respect your opinion but totally disagree and we are going to see how bad this GM truly is if we keep this merry go round going. His rings are due to EA more then his drafts. Those were EA's offensive lines, EA pass rushers, and EA's QB. I am sick of saying the same fucking shit every year, don't agree and go on wishing it was Reese and not EA, go ahead, but history will show who it was.


If this team wins 10 games and makes the playoffs- Will you still feel the same?
OK  
PaulN : 12/5/2016 3:59 pm : link
Your right. I'll let it go. I am too pissed, I live in the Cinncy area and hate the Steelers, too emotional today.
RE: JPP  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13250643 PaulN said:
Quote:
Was his pick. That is the one guy that he got on that defense. He also added Nicks and Cruz who were very instrumental for our second ring. But I always believe that championships are won with the front lines and this is where he has failed miserably.


Are you familiar with Landon Collins?
RE: OK  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 4:00 pm : link
In comment 13250646 PaulN said:
Quote:
Your right. I'll let it go. I am too pissed, I live in the Cinncy area and hate the Steelers, too emotional today.


Paul, just playin' with ya..😎
RE: JPP  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13250643 PaulN said:
Quote:
Was his pick. That is the one guy that he got on that defense. He also added Nicks and Cruz who were very instrumental for our second ring. But I always believe that championships are won with the front lines and this is where he has failed miserably.


This sums it up for me. It's a team building philosophy. We got cute too many times with skill position players while letting the core of our team, the offensive and defensive lines, fall apart.

That is the whole argument for me, right there. That's it.
RE: RE: JPP  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13250652 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13250643 PaulN said:


Quote:


Was his pick. That is the one guy that he got on that defense. He also added Nicks and Cruz who were very instrumental for our second ring. But I always believe that championships are won with the front lines and this is where he has failed miserably.



This sums it up for me. It's a team building philosophy. We got cute too many times with skill position players while letting the core of our team, the offensive and defensive lines, fall apart.

That is the whole argument for me, right there. That's it.


That's easier said than done. We have a top DL, the OL needs work- We knew this prior to the season.

And when did "we get cute"?

The OL has two #1s and a #2. It needs more help.

This idea that Reese has ignored the OL is simply false.
RE: Jesus Christ...  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13250599 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
He was FIRED! How much more accountable can he be held?


I'm talking about accountability from a fan perspective, not the organization. Where is it from your end?
Want an example of getting cute?  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 4:10 pm : link
We had the dead last rushing attack when we won the Superbowl in 2011, so who do we draft? David Wilson, while guys like Mitchell Swartz and Cordy Glenn went in the 10 picks that followed, both of whom have been stalwarts on their teams offensive lines ever since.

That's an example of bad philosophy. Picking a 1st round RB thinking it will solve the rushing problem, when it's the guys that do the blocking that make the RB in most cases.
I used to believe that championship  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 4:10 pm : link
were won on the lines, but now I feel that's an old school concept.

the Patriots invest very little in their lines. Some say Solder, their only 1st round pick on the OL is a liability. No one else higher than a 3rd round pick on their OL and no high priced FA's.

on their DL one 1st round pick. the rest JAG's that get coached up. More investment in the back 7 (slightly).

Think the Patriots are an anomaly?

Look at the Broncos OL from the SB.

no 1st round picks, in fact a couple 3rd's and late round picks, low $$ FA's. They had DL investment. But not more than the Giants. A lot of their investment is in the back 7.

Look at the Seahawks. OL, very little investment. DL some investment, but again mostly back 7 investment.

I looked at all 12 playoff teams from last year and the same theme is generally true, not much OL investment in terms of high draft picks and high $$ FA's - as a rule.

And definitely not on both lines.

The Cowboys this year will be an anomaly. And they haven't won anything yet.

I believe it's as much or more coaching based on results we're seeing on-field today.




RE: Coughlin is gone and now irrelevant to the discussion.  
VenteSette : 12/5/2016 4:12 pm : link
In comment 13250326 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
The bottom line is that the offense is actually way worse than last season despite having the same, or slightly better, personnel.

Can't blame Coughlin anymore.


The personnel is better and people are supposed to blame... the GM? The D is certainly significantly better, if the O is better too, I would say that is a decent enough job.
RE: Want an example of getting cute?  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13250671 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
We had the dead last rushing attack when we won the Superbowl in 2011, so who do we draft? David Wilson, while guys like Mitchell Swartz and Cordy Glenn went in the 10 picks that followed, both of whom have been stalwarts on their teams offensive lines ever since.

That's an example of bad philosophy. Picking a 1st round RB thinking it will solve the rushing problem, when it's the guys that do the blocking that make the RB in most cases.


I wanted Cordy Glenn as well...No argument here. But we have 3 high picks on the OL.

He got cute there. But, how long you gonna hold that over his head?
RE: Want an example of getting cute?  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13250671 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
We had the dead last rushing attack when we won the Superbowl in 2011, so who do we draft? David Wilson, while guys like Mitchell Swartz and Cordy Glenn went in the 10 picks that followed, both of whom have been stalwarts on their teams offensive lines ever since.

That's an example of bad philosophy. Picking a 1st round RB thinking it will solve the rushing problem, when it's the guys that do the blocking that make the RB in most cases.


Given the HC's penchant to go to bat for coordinators like Fewell and KG, you don't think he went to bat to squeeze out more years out of Diehl, Beatty, Boothe, Baas, and Snee? The team collectively thought the window was more wide open than it was. Basically, you want to shove the GM out the door who built the 2011 SB team, because he didn't make the pick you wanted the year after? Does he get credit for 2011, or nah? Who knows where we'd be with Wilson, the kid was a dynamic player who had shitty luck with injuries. DW actually would be dynamic with OBJ.

This team has a very good chance at 10 wins and playoff birth.  
drkenneth : 12/5/2016 4:22 pm : link
I'm not sure how anyone could expect more.

Am I happy with the way the O is playing? Of course not, but I find it really difficult to bitch and moan about an 8-4 team.

But that's just me.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2016 4:26 pm : link
They've spent the resources at OL, but it hasn't worked (yet). This OL should be very good and isn't. That falls on Reese. He's done a great job this year with the D, though.

Even if TC thought Diehl and Snee were ready to be Pro Bowlers again going into 2013, it's the GM's job to know his coaches blind spots and overrule him. I liked TC a ton and was sad to see him go, but he had blinders on when it came to certain players. Reese has to jettison those anchors. And maybe the organizational structure didn't allow for him to do so - I have no insight into the Giants decision making, so I find it hard to properly allocate blame with any certainty.
RE: .....  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 4:31 pm : link
In comment 13250708 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
They've spent the resources at OL, but it hasn't worked (yet). This OL should be very good and isn't. That falls on Reese. He's done a great job this year with the D, though.

Even if TC thought Diehl and Snee were ready to be Pro Bowlers again going into 2013, it's the GM's job to know his coaches blind spots and overrule him. I liked TC a ton and was sad to see him go, but he had blinders on when it came to certain players. Reese has to jettison those anchors. And maybe the organizational structure didn't allow for him to do so - I have no insight into the Giants decision making, so I find it hard to properly allocate blame with any certainty.


Great post Brett.
RE: I used to believe that championship  
Reb8thVA : 12/5/2016 4:37 pm : link
In comment 13250673 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
were won on the lines, but now I feel that's an old school concept.

the Patriots invest very little in their lines. Some say Solder, their only 1st round pick on the OL is a liability. No one else higher than a 3rd round pick on their OL and no high priced FA's.

on their DL one 1st round pick. the rest JAG's that get coached up. More investment in the back 7 (slightly).

Think the Patriots are an anomaly?

Look at the Broncos OL from the SB.

no 1st round picks, in fact a couple 3rd's and late round picks, low $$ FA's. They had DL investment. But not more than the Giants. A lot of their investment is in the back 7.

Look at the Seahawks. OL, very little investment. DL some investment, but again mostly back 7 investment.

I looked at all 12 playoff teams from last year and the same theme is generally true, not much OL investment in terms of high draft picks and high $$ FA's - as a rule.

And definitely not on both lines.

The Cowboys this year will be an anomaly. And they haven't won anything yet.

I believe it's as much or more coaching based on results we're seeing on-field today.





Or is it an ability to identify talent? The Broncos and Patriots may be that good to where they can identify solid talent in later rounds. Others are less fortunate and need to draft earlier where the likelihood of finding a keeper is higher.

For all his faults, Reese isn't bad at identifying CB and WR talent. OL not so much.
How can someone who constantly defends Reese  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 5:34 pm : link
Who is the one person who has the most to do with the make-up of this team and yet who has not been held accountable at all by the powers that be, argue that Coughlin who was fired from the team needs to be held more accountable?

I mean come on
Montana, you're missing the point here  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 5:40 pm : link
Giants certainly held Coughlin accountable, there's a group of fans that don't. One of those posters thinks reigning in Beckham's meltdown last year wasn't part of TC's responsibilty.
RE: Montana, you're missing the point here  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 5:50 pm : link
In comment 13250836 David in LA said:
Quote:
Giants certainly held Coughlin accountable, there's a group of fans that don't. One of those posters thinks reigning in Beckham's meltdown last year wasn't part of TC's responsibilty.

Ok, I see that aspect now and yeah there is to a degree. But you would also have to say that there is a contingent that denies Reese has any accountability with regards to our current situation also.

It's hard to say what could have been done to improve the line, I think Joe Thomas might have been the missed opportunity there but I don't know for sure. I do think though the ignoring of better TE's than what we have is a glaring omission on his part though that could have drastically helped
RE: Montana, you're missing the point here  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 6:30 pm : link
In comment 13250836 David in LA said:
Quote:
Giants certainly held Coughlin accountable, there's a group of fans that don't. One of those posters thinks reigning in Beckham's meltdown last year wasn't part of TC's responsibilty.


You are so full of shit, or just plain dense. I'm leaning towards both.

I said nothing of the sort. What I said was how do you know how good or job a bad of a job reigning in Beckham Coughlin had done, considering that he didn't have any issues for nearly two full seasons prior to the end of season meltdown last year, at which point he was coaching for his job.

I said that since it carried over into this season, and McAdoo also was having trouble reigning him in, perhaps it was just another in a long list of shit that posters like you heap at Coughlin's feet, which by the way didn't get any better after his ouster.
The offensive line should be very good?  
Go Terps : 12/5/2016 6:56 pm : link
What is that based on? It wasn't good last year and nothing was done to improve it.

The dip in the offense should have been expected by every single Giants fan. It was clear as day that this would happen back in March.
Yeah, you never posited anything like this. Ever.  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 7:09 pm : link
Quote:
I said nothing of the sort. What I said was how do you know how good or job a bad of a job reigning in Beckham Coughlin had done, considering that he didn't have any issues for nearly two full seasons prior to the end of season meltdown last year, at which point he was coaching for his job.


Here's how you chose to lead off that thread.


Quote:
It's 1000% a talent problem.
Britt in VA : 12/20/2015 2:20 pm
Beckham drops a TD.

DRC Drops another Pick 6.

Jennings fumbles away a promising drive.

If they fire Coughlin, it's a BIG FUCKING MISTAKE.
What does that have to do with Coughlin reigning Beckham in?  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 7:10 pm : link
Like I said... Dense.
Is that the thread....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 7:13 pm : link
that I "showed my ass" in? The same one you posted in the offseason and everybody roasted you about it to the point you had to delete it? That one?

I'll take showing my ass that way, I guess... Well, over literally showing my ass to my coworkers, or nah?
You can't even keep track of your own bullshit.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 7:14 pm : link
.
My non-agenda view is that he has been bow aveeage  
SomeFan : 12/5/2016 7:31 pm : link
I do like the draft picks and free agent signings this year but we still have a mediocre at best o-line and the worst TE group I have seen in the NFL. We had to spend a king's ransom in FA because our defense was devoid of talent.

Granted, he has tried to address the oline and TE position but I think that is even a worse indictment of his performance. His attempts have not been good.
Here's the long and short of it, Britt  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 7:33 pm : link
You are one of the most egregious TC apologists here. These digs at Reese, and also McAdoo you seem to make off of losses is pretty damn transparent. You're not that slick. If you honestly wanted to have a conversation about how good or poor of a job TC did reigning in OBJ, then you did a shitty job of putting it into words.

I didn't delete that other thread. Mods likely did it out of pity for you.
RE: Here's the long and short of it, Britt  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 7:37 pm : link
In comment 13250966 David in LA said:
Quote:
You are one of the most egregious TC apologists here. These digs at Reese, and also McAdoo you seem to make off of losses is pretty damn transparent. You're not that slick. If you honestly wanted to have a conversation about how good or poor of a job TC did reigning in OBJ, then you did a shitty job of putting it into words.

I didn't delete that other thread. Mods likely did it out of pity for you.


Absolutely hilarious.

You fabricate something I said about Tom Coughlin not being responsible for reigning Beckham in, I correct you, then you dig up some old post to "prove" I said it, which has absolutely zero to do with what you accused me of saying. THEN, you have the audacity to say that I'm not capable of having a rational conversation about it!

Can't make it up.

Also, why in the world would the mods pity me? I wasn't even on the thread, which is even more lame, considering I wasn't even around and you were trying to bash me, at which point many other posters bashed you.

Got any more old threads to dig up? How about some Cutler threads where you followed me around for years with?

Like I said, hilarious.
Also, you call me a Tom Coughlin apologist...  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2016 7:43 pm : link
as if it's some sort of insult.

I wear it as a badge of honor. The guy is a HOF coach, and took us to two championships. Both probably the greatest sports events I'll ever see in my lifetime, including the greatest upset of all time in all of sports.

Show some fucking respect, something you've lacked to for years. You've bashed the guy relentlessly for years, and continue to now that he's gone. That reflects way more poorly on you that anybody that defends the guy, IMO.
.  
Bill2 : 12/5/2016 7:44 pm : link
I echo Some Fan.

After awhile you are what your record says you are. its been enough years. Incomplete NFl average to below average records...NFL average to below average GM

I remind us he has a number of years and unlike most NFL GMS he inherited a NFL franchise QB who never got injured and still produced NFL average results ( and may again this year and next...hopefully not...but the likely pick is that the past is close to the future).

I dont buy he has had bad luck...his luck is average after a few years ( ie there is little good or bad luck by five years out...results resemble capability...NFL average to below considering he has the biggest piece to start which few other GMS had...a franchise QB who did not get injured.

just imho. Hopefully he is learning on the job
How can one fabricate something that's documented and archived?  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 7:50 pm : link
.
RE: Also, you call me a Tom Coughlin apologist...  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 7:54 pm : link
In comment 13250974 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
as if it's some sort of insult.

I wear it as a badge of honor. The guy is a HOF coach, and took us to two championships. Both probably the greatest sports events I'll ever see in my lifetime, including the greatest upset of all time in all of sports.

Show some fucking respect, something you've lacked to for years. You've bashed the guy relentlessly for years, and continue to now that he's gone. That reflects way more poorly on you that anybody that defends the guy, IMO.


You accuse me of bashing TC, when I suggest his best days were behind him, and things that he should be accountable for. Your most recent nickname was well earned.
Thanks all  
Big Blue '56 : 12/6/2016 9:53 am : link
for good discussion. Not often that an entire thread can be mostly informative..
RE: RE: I used to believe that championship  
pjcas18 : 12/6/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13250730 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 13250673 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


were won on the lines, but now I feel that's an old school concept.

the Patriots invest very little in their lines. Some say Solder, their only 1st round pick on the OL is a liability. No one else higher than a 3rd round pick on their OL and no high priced FA's.

on their DL one 1st round pick. the rest JAG's that get coached up. More investment in the back 7 (slightly).

Think the Patriots are an anomaly?

Look at the Broncos OL from the SB.

no 1st round picks, in fact a couple 3rd's and late round picks, low $$ FA's. They had DL investment. But not more than the Giants. A lot of their investment is in the back 7.

Look at the Seahawks. OL, very little investment. DL some investment, but again mostly back 7 investment.

I looked at all 12 playoff teams from last year and the same theme is generally true, not much OL investment in terms of high draft picks and high $$ FA's - as a rule.

And definitely not on both lines.

The Cowboys this year will be an anomaly. And they haven't won anything yet.

I believe it's as much or more coaching based on results we're seeing on-field today.







Or is it an ability to identify talent? The Broncos and Patriots may be that good to where they can identify solid talent in later rounds. Others are less fortunate and need to draft earlier where the likelihood of finding a keeper is higher.

For all his faults, Reese isn't bad at identifying CB and WR talent. OL not so much.


Probably a combination of both.

What I look at in New England is how bad their OL was the last two years (even winning a SB), so they lured Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement to take back OL coaching responsibilities and it has turned things around very quickly.

Someone like B in Alb or a former player would know, because I'm surprised coaching can have so much impact, but having never been an OL that's my opinion.
That's why I'd continue to be patient with Flowers (it would help  
Big Blue '56 : 12/6/2016 10:01 am : link
if he had Pugh by his side) as Solari is considered one of the best of not the best OL coach in the league..
RE: .  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/6/2016 10:02 am : link
In comment 13250977 Bill2 said:
Quote:
I echo Some Fan.

After awhile you are what your record says you are. its been enough years. Incomplete NFl average to below average records...NFL average to below average GM

I remind us he has a number of years and unlike most NFL GMS he inherited a NFL franchise QB who never got injured and still produced NFL average results ( and may again this year and next...hopefully not...but the likely pick is that the past is close to the future).

I dont buy he has had bad luck...his luck is average after a few years ( ie there is little good or bad luck by five years out...results resemble capability...NFL average to below considering he has the biggest piece to start which few other GMS had...a franchise QB who did not get injured.

just imho. Hopefully he is learning on the job


Bill, Reese has essentially been an extended period of Accorsi with some minor nuances. Same philosophy, particularly on the defensive side, and same areas of deficiency, particularly the offensive line. Ernie might have been better in free agency, Reese better in drafting and UDFA. If you think deeper about the parallels, there are a bunch.

RE: Thanks all  
Deej : 12/6/2016 10:03 am : link
In comment 13251452 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
for good discussion. Not often that an entire thread can be mostly informative..


I tried man, I tried.
RE: RE: Thanks all  
Big Blue '56 : 12/6/2016 10:10 am : link
In comment 13251474 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13251452 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


for good discussion. Not often that an entire thread can be mostly informative..





I tried man, I tried.


You always do, sir..😊
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