Can we have a non-agenda driven discussion on what Reese has

60 Antonio Gates TE SD SD (2 years, $12 million)
81 Ladarius Green TE SD PIT (4 years, $24 million)
88 Dwayne Allen TE IND IND (4 years, $29 million)
91 Zach Miller TE CHI CHI (2 years, $6 million)
98 Coby Fleener TE IND NO (5 years, $36 million)

then of course you have guys like Bennett or Vernon Davis, even a Ben Watson. All of who are superior to anyone on our roster. We do not have an NFL caliber TE on our roster.

on BBI but I have no agenda. What kind of agenda would I have from Ottawa, Canada. Hell, I want Reese or whoever is in that job to succeed but when you look at his record since 2012, it is bad and I don't understand why we can't examine this by looking at the facts.

For years, he ignored the defence and we saw the result of that. We had to spend a ridiculous amount of money to fix that problem.

Now, it seems the same has been done on the offense with the OL, TE and RB positions. Again, this is just fact based on performance. As Troy Aikman noted yesterday, the Giants had only 14 sacks going into the game because of Eli not because the OL is doing a good job. We cannot run the ball to any great extent and we really have only one threat...albeit a great one.

I don't understand when everyone gets so upset when these facts are pointed out. Hell, it cost TC his job. Does anyone believe we would not be a better team right now had this spending spree been done under TC's watch. It is obvious the game planning and play calling have suffered dramatically not to mention the use of basically one personnel set 95% of the time. This is all the result of a porous offensive line.

We can all point to the fact that he has ignored drafting LBs or TE and no more perfect example was set than yesterday when the Steelers best offensive player, Antonio Brown, was held in check but Ben had other options besides Brown. He had two TEs that did the job plus a great running back.

A coach can only coach what he is given and what has Mac been given in terms of offensive talent. I am not excusing him by the way...but the fact is unless OBJ is out of this world, we have no chance. The selection and gathering of players is Reese's responsibility and he has failed in this regard. Comparing him to other GMs whose teams are not doing so well is ridiculous. We are Giant fans and I want the Giants to succeed...I don't give a damn about other teams.

Reese has been a reactive GM, only doing something when things get really desperate. His drafting and his assemblage of depth talent has been horrible, in my opinion. But I certainly have no agenda...I wish he had done a great job, would be thrilled. Fact is, he hasn't.

to first in one offseason, and we see teams do it all the time, we've spent several years in a row as worst.

I can't fully get behind Jerry Reese until he builds a competent offensive line, something that he's been struggling to do for nearly five years.

In addition, it's hard to watch an offense that's struggling to protect the QB, without a TE, without an every down RB, and a couple of slot receivers backing up OBJ.

If we're being realistic, we have a lot of holes that still need to be filled on offense. And you have to ask, how did we get there?

That's not bias, those are the facts.

He fixed the defense last offseason. He gets credit for that. I guess I'll wait and see what he does this offseason in regards to offense.

that are the issues.. we get the least out of our late round picks.. some look promising but in the end most of them don't even end up as JAGS.. Dallas picked a corner late in the draft this year and he has been just as good as our 1st round pick.. In the future Eli Apple could turn out to be much better.. I expect him to but recent drafts aren't much better..

I don't think Tye is any great shakes, and Adams is still a rookie - but Tye's at least a decent blocker and receiver.

You can make the argument he's undervalued the position, which would be fair. The Giants had great success while spending little in terms of resources on the TE position, but that hasn't been the case for awhile and they should probably reconsider (see LB).

struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about.

The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league.

What I want to talk about is what Mara said or implied after he fired Coughlin. My interpretation was missing the playoffs in 2016 is unacceptable and Reese will be held accountable.

The OL is a mess and it's filled with Reese draft picks and FA signings. Add TE to the pile as well. The offense is anemic and flat out unable to function at times. Eli rarely ever has a clean pocket and the running game is historically weak.

On the other hand, Reese nailed the defense in FA and it looks like he did well with Apple and Thompson in the draft.

It's a bottom line business. The question is, if the Giants miss the playoffs, what happens to Reese?

with undervalued TEs was because we had Mike Pope. But we let Pope go and he's now with the devil's team. Again, bad management decisions.

until his contract is over? He has a 4 year deal, almost half way through and he's garbage.

I think the Giants need to try another spot on the line or bench him. It is impacting Eli and the offense has no rhythm.

Have we learned nothing from "scholarship" players like Sinorice Moss or Ramses Barden?

If football teams in the NFL learn nothing else from the Patriots, learn just cut the cord when it's time to move a player (McCourty from CB to safety) or time to move on from the player completely (Chandler Jones, etc.).

is his failure on the offensive line and LB core. We've wasted prime years of the best QB in franchise history by putting him behind one of the worst olines in the league for the last 6-7 years. This team could have had an opportunity to make multiple playoff runs but the oline has been the achilles heal for far too long.

other than I want the Giants to be good.

But to your points about Reese:

You are correct,Reese has rebuilt the defense. Question how did it get so depleted in the first place.

Reese has not shown he can develop an offensive line. I hope you are right about Pugh, Richburg and Flowers, but up to now, his two championships were with Ernie's lines.

Reese continues to undervalue the tight end position despite the fact that all around the league tight ends are a huge part of good offenses.

And as befuddling as it seems, he also undervalues the very position that can help minimize the impact these tight ends have against the Giants, that being linebackers.

If the Giants do not make the play offs this season, and that should not be the case, Reese will have had 4 years since his latest success. That resume will be 3 awful seasons, and a total collapse. That should be grounds for a change.

So I guess, if I were the owner, the next 4 games determined his future with the team.

The constant Reese-bashing that happens so frequently. Sure, he's had some misses, just like any other GM/Front office has. But if you compare his drafting to the other organizations in the league, you'd be hard-pressed to make a case he hasn't made some fantastic draft picks.

If the Giants don't get some incredibly lousy luck in terms of injuries and career-ending accidents the Giants and JR would be lauded as one of if not the best drafting teams in the league.

What I don't get about those who criticize JR for our current OL is.. Who was he supposed to go out and get? It's not like an established top-tier OL heading into the prime of his career is available in free agency on a regular basis. I'd argue it's extremely rare. Over the past 5 years he's had the opportunity to take OL 3 times by having a relatively high draft pick with a quality OL available when the Giants are selecting. Those players are Flowers, Richburg and Pugh.

Do people just expect every OL to pan out? Look at the rest of the OL taken in those drafts and tell me who you can resoundingly say is a guy we dropped the ball on drafting?

I think a lot of people need to realize the league is a lot different now, you can't just draft a massive kid with great talent and expect them to step right in and play Pro Bowl calibre football. It takes time for these guys to adapt to the pro game, to develop their skills. Hell 2 years ago people were saying Pugh was a bust now everyone thinks he's our best OL.

Arm-chair quarterbacking is really easy to do when you aren't looking below surface level at the nature of how offenses run these days. I'll give an example: 5-10 years ago everyone would say "you can't draft a WR and expect them to make any impact until at least year 2, probably year 3." Meanwhile linemen were going extremely high in drafts because everyone knew they can typically step right in and play very well in a starting role.

Now? Rookie WR's are easily inserted into pass-heavy offenses and it is the linemen who are taking more time to adapt and develop their skills because they are being asked to pass protect a lot more. And against far more athletic d-linemen, some being veterans who are just more educated, in far more sophisticated defensive fronts that take a great deal of experience and intelligence.

Tyron Smith's first 2 years in the NFL were very hard for him as he had to adapt and develop as a tackle. Now he's arguably the best at his position in the NFL. Reminds me a lot of Flowers. Not saying they're the same or Flowers will even become as good as Smith is now. But the kid is 22.

In comment 13249590 That’s Gold, Jerry said:

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with undervalued TEs was because we had Mike Pope. But we let Pope go and he's now with the devil's team. Again, bad management decisions.

I don't disagree - and replacing him with Gilbride Jr. just made no sense (seeing as he had no experience ever playing or coaching TE).

I don't know where some of these calls are coming from, though. Was that TC? Mara? Reese? You guys just can't assume the GM controls everything. He's accountable for the roster, but how much direct responsibility he has over position coaches is anyone's guess.

that is the issue. The results say Reese has done a poor job...you can what if all you like but we are trying to deal with the facts here and comparing him to other incompetent GMs makes no sense.

Reese has done a lousy job and, as mentioned above, basically ruined Eli's career since SB 46. And it's not just the Oline..it is TE position, RB, another viable receiver (Shepard has been okay, not great, maybe he will be next year).

NFL history shows that if you do have someone who can dominate middle of the field you are in trouble. So, my bashing of Reese is based simply on facts and results. As someone said so smartly above, this is a results based business and, on that basis, he deserves to be fired if we do not make the playoffs.

These things are cyclical. I'm sure everyone was wondering how the Giants got so bad under Accorsi in the late 90's. You have to understand there are a lot of moving parts in building a championship football team, let alone a competitive one.

Do you all really expect Reese to be able to plug in younger or arguably less-talented players once certain positions become depleted whether by old-age (retirement), free agency, or injury?

He can't go out every offseason and spend the kind of money like he did this year. There is a process to the replenishment of talent on any roster. It doesn't happen in one offseason completely across the board at every position of need.

but IMO, Reese has done more good than bad, especially the last few years. Our defense was abysmal last season, and part of that is on him from our prior years drafts, and a lot of it is pure bad lack with injuries. So he went out and fixed it, and he 100% without any really argument, fixed this defense. Spending $200 million usually doesn't work out but he overspent on players entering their prime and should be commended for taking a calculated risk.

The offense? That's on everyone. Its on Reese for not getting better talent, but its on this coaching staff for not getting the most out of what it has to work with. Its also on the players themselves not getting better (Flowers) or regressing (Richburg).

In sum, I'd take Reese over most other GM's since I'm looking at other NFL rosters and I really only see a handful of teams (Pats, Broncos, Steelers, Cowboys, Seahawks off the top of my head) that have better rosters than us. I'm sure there are a couple others but its atleast arguable with some of them since teams like Arizona and Carolina have massive issues as well.

can dominate middle of the field

In comment 13249627 That’s Gold, Jerry said:

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that is the issue. The results say Reese has done a poor job...you can what if all you like but we are trying to deal with the facts here and comparing him to other incompetent GMs makes no sense. Reese has done a lousy job and, as mentioned above, basically ruined Eli's career since SB 46. And it's not just the Oline..it is TE position, RB, another viable receiver (Shepard has been okay, not great, maybe he will be next year). NFL history shows that if you do have someone who can dominate middle of the field you are in trouble. So, my bashing of Reese is based simply on facts and results. As someone said so smartly above, this is a results based business and, on that basis, he deserves to be fired if we do not make the playoffs.

You are miserable. You aren't posting facts. You are saying we are bad at X so that must be (insert person)'s fault. You are the definition of someone who talks out of their ass.

Newsflash, there's a boatload of blame to be passed around. Keep beating your drum though, its all you know how to do.

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Tyron Smith's first 2 years in the NFL were very hard for him as he had to adapt and develop as a tackle.

Smith started at RT from day 1 as a rookie with Doug Free at LT. After his rookie year Smith proved to be much better than Free so they swapped them in year 2. And while there was a slight adjustment period from right to left tackle comparing Tyron Smith to Ereck Flowers is beyond taking some liberties.

their drafting, what to me signaled their turnaround was their decision to hire several former head coaches for each aspect of the game. They overpaid to do so, but that strategy made sense seeing as you don't have a cap on coaching salaries.

The results have been better than you'd expect with some marginal talent. Yes, they did ply a lot of resources into their OL, but they've managed to get good return on meager resources on the defensive side of the ball.

Including JR and probably everyone in the Giants organization this is a results driven business.

But again, my only question is this: who did Reese drop the ball on by not going out and getting them through free agency or the draft? What would the price have been?

And again, what if David Wilson doesn't have his career ended? What if Kenny Phillips' knee doesn't end his career? What if Chad Jones doesn't get in that car accident? What if Nicks' knee didn't end his? Cruz having to go on 3-year hiatus because of his injury? JPP blows his hand up and basically forfeits an entire year? The list goes on..

I'm not saying these are excuses per-se, but they certainly need to be taken into account when people fly off the handle about how poor a job Reese has done in drafting and filling personnel need through free agency.

I would respectfully and humbly disagree.

Heck look as recently as the past 2 year where he's drafted what many expect to be the future of our safety position through 2 drafts! None of which are first round picks. But, Thompson & Thompson (write that one down) are injured so we don't have them playing.

TE is a disaster but again.. who the heck is REALLY a good TE we should have drafted or gone after??

Let's all relax, take it easy, it's one loss in a game a lot of people didn't expect us to win considering Pittsburgh's need for that win to stay in the playoff hunt.

I still think the Giants can win a SB this year, with the talent we have on this roster as it is. The NFC does not scare me in the least and I don't see anyone in the AFC that makes me tremble either.

by his standards, he was not very good in his first 2 years (though he is an anomaly and was still effective at his position).

In comment 13249682 Danthebigbluefan said:

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by his standards, he was not very good in his first 2 years (though he is an anomaly and was still effective at his position).

By his standards sure. His third year in the league he had 1 holding penalty and allowed 1 sack. He's been a perennial all-pro since his 3rd year in a position voted on more by reputation than maybe any other position. Hard to break into.

I'm just saying while I absolutely agree the book is not closed on Ereck Flowers, you're dreaming if you are using Smith as the comp. I won't pretend to be a Tyron Smith expert or an OL expert, but my sense is Flowers gets moved to another OL spot before he experiences Smith-like success.

And that isn't a knock on Reese. Look at the 2013 draft. Many of those OL drafted before Pugh to be LT's are not LT's. Pugh is a guard. I just think move Flowers because he's hurting the team. Not because of any agenda against Reese.

Problem is they probably don't have a better option than Flowers. Beatty just has to be in terrible shape, at his worst he wasn't as bad as Flowers.

Even his so called great picks in the first two rounds
are becoming questionable .
We don't have 200 million to fix the offense as we had to
with the defense .
Watch as the window closes on Eli because of the so called
plan to rebuild the offensive line . Whatever year that
happens we will see what we have in goldenboy Nassib that
he wasted two picks on ...
How about getting rid of TC and keeping so many of the
coaches . Instead of cleaning house is that also on the
owners . Give me one good reason why Quinn is still here
and who again is our offensive coordinator ?

you really are a piece of shit. Results? Reese has 2 Super Bowls with picks that largely factored into those. I'd say those results are pretty damn good results.

Team is competitive in each and every game Reese is called out. If Eli played just half as good as previews years this record would be even better. Still Reese is crucified.

you will look back at your weird fucking tirades today and feel like a jackass. This team is 8-4 you realize that right?

TE, OL, LB. See a pattern?

We had two good to very good FB/H-Back types on our roster in camp. Both got hurt and are out for the year. How do you not bring in a replacement???? The camp players and the signing of Will Johnson shows they wanted/planned on using the position. I am sick of seeing single back sets and shot guns on short yardage. Shit don't work in December in the North East.

In comment 13249740 jeff57 said:

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TE, OL, LB. See a pattern?

You sure last year we didn't have swiss cheese of a d-line and secondary?

the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster?

Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed.

Now, that is fact.

In comment 13249781 That’s Gold, Jerry said:

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Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed. Now, that is fact.

Or injured? Troll harder, asshole

In comment 13249781 That’s Gold, Jerry said:

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Giants one of the worst teams in the NFL in players getting to second contracts. That means the players drafted have not worked out and they are let go, not re-signed. Now, that is fact.

That's objective proof? Where? Which players weren't signed to second contracts that went on to outperform elsewhere? Aside from Linval Joseph, anyone else?

Or do you mean we should have signed the corpses of Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Phillips and David Wilson to second contracts after their bodies gave out on them?

In comment 13249759 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 13249740 jeff57 said: Quote: TE, OL, LB. See a pattern? You sure last year we didn't have swiss cheese of a d-line and secondary?

I said same problems every year.

In comment 13249774 Fish said:

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the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster?

Look up two posts from your original one Fishie ;)

In comment 13249792 BlueHurricane said:

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In comment 13249774 Fish said: Quote: the need for a FB here? Name one GM that does not have a FB on roster? Look up two posts from your original one Fishie ;)

How did you sneak that in there?

Most disturbing is this offensive lines features 2 first round picks and a high second round pick. That's more investment than most teams get.

Thanks for playing

In comment 13249750 BlueHurricane said:

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We had two good to very good FB/H-Back types on our roster in camp. Both got hurt and are out for the year. How do you not bring in a replacement???? The camp players and the signing of Will Johnson shows they wanted/planned on using the position. I am sick of seeing single back sets and shot guns on short yardage. Shit don't work in December in the North East.

Exactly. The I-formation is long gone. Or any power running plays are done here.

It's the guys on the headsets.

In comment 13249588 drkenneth said:

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struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about. The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league.

Bingo. Giants ol is average or better.

Dallas Oakland Buffalo have good Olines everyone else is pretty Similar

In comment 13249930 Jesse B said:

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In comment 13249588 drkenneth said: Quote: struggle with what the NFL in 2016 is all about. The quality of play stinks across the league. OL play is an issue across the league. Bingo. Giants ol is average or better. Dallas Oakland Buffalo have good Olines everyone else is pretty Similar

Yup.

And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.

In comment 13249942 Deej said:

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And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.

Lol

In comment 13249942 Deej said:

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And I will continue to blame the Jews for our shitty running game.

Man those digs at Schwartz are getting old.

Let go of it already!

;)

you were dealt as far as the availability of prospects.

Stellar LTs are often not available to mediocre, as opposed to bad, teams and sometimes not even then.

In hindsight, you could argue for a signing of Okung, but I honestly believe that JR was taking the long view and did not consider the Giants to seriously challenge this year.

I consider Flowers development to be key for this group. If he is not an LT, I think we are in trouble unless we get lucky.

and MOVE on from the past, the Giants are fine. They are decent to good now and should be even better next season and beyond.

IF you want to focus on 2012-2015 and bitch about a bad draft 2011-2012 draft period and leave out the injuries to good drafted players in the 2008-2010 range, have at it. But it's a new era now and the young talent brought in from 2013-present day is taking shape. Giants have had a lot of hits lately. With cap space and continued solid drafting no reason to think the Giants can't field a pretty scary team next season.

If they collapse here down the stretch it will leave a bad taste in our mouths but they haven't collapsed yet. ONe loss doesn't equal 4.

Just get to wins. Develop a winning culture here again. If they do that I will be happy with the current build.

...11 would be even nicer. 10 is a must in my view.

to have a pro-Reese or anti-Reese view. It's a difference of opinion.

You can look at things two ways. Let's take Eric Flowers. Reese spent a top 10 pick on the offensive line which genuinely everyone thought was needed. he was a highly regarded prospect from a big college program. You could stop there and say "great job addressing the line" and argue Flowers' play is not on him. Or you can take the other approach, and say he spent a top 10 pick that so far is not living up to what most would expect. Then you can Reese have it for poor drafting. Neither is right or wrong, its a matter of perspective.

Reese went into the offseason with the (apparent) #1 goal of fixing the offense. That looks to be a resounding success. We also all know the Oline needed help, and so far the Oline has been a disappointment. He has succeeded in some areas and not in others. I think you don't have to be a pro-Reese guy or an anti-Reese guy.