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Was that Antonio Brown TD really a TD?

lawguy9801 : 12/5/2016 12:00 pm
I don't have the ability to easily post pics/gifs from my work computer, but it looked to me, contrary to what the TV announcers said, that that wasn't a legal catch.

He had one foot down, and then as he was falling his thigh/rear end appeared to hit out of bounds simultaneously with his knee landing in bounds. As I saw it, he never got two feet down, nor one other body part.

This reminds me of the call in the Packers-Giants game in 2011 at MetLife (another travesty of officiating where all the calls went against the Giants - why does that keep happening?), when Jake Ballard seemed to clearly have one knee down in the corner of the end zone - as proven by pictures flying around BBI the next day - but the refs, however, ruled that his knee was not in bounds.

Did anyone else see it the way I did?

Can someone post pics/gifs of the play?
His elbow  
ryanmkeane : 12/5/2016 12:01 pm : link
comes down out of bounds.....still have no idea why this was called a TD and why the announcers weren't even DEBATING whether it was.
It was.....  
Tom [Giants fan] : 12/5/2016 12:01 pm : link
because his one foot came down in bounds and his elbow hit in bounds before any other part of his arm hit out of bounds.
I thought it was good  
KWALL2 : 12/5/2016 12:02 pm : link
by about 1/2 inch when his elbow hit inside the line. Very close but good catch.
I missed the elbow  
lawguy9801 : 12/5/2016 12:04 pm : link
I was concentrating on the leg.
Yes  
pjcas18 : 12/5/2016 12:06 pm : link
it was a legit catch and TD
yea damn close but I'd call it a catch  
Stu11 : 12/5/2016 12:07 pm : link
seems like the forearm touched inbounds a nano second before the elbow.
anyone have a video  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 12:07 pm : link
?
His elbow most certainly came down in bounds  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 12:08 pm : link
With one foot already down, that is a catch and a damn good one.
they replayed it a number of times  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/5/2016 12:08 pm : link
it was a good catch -- his foot and then elbow both touched inbounds and then he slid out and maintained control
It was close, but clearly good  
Mad Mike : 12/5/2016 12:08 pm : link
*
RE: I thought it was good  
Johnny5 : 12/5/2016 12:09 pm : link
In comment 13249973 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
by about 1/2 inch when his elbow hit inside the line. Very close but good catch.

Yep I agree.
Once again I feel like it depends on the letter of the law here...  
ChaChing : 12/5/2016 12:10 pm : link
I'm 'guessing' that the elbow is separate and therefore was #2 hit inbounds...close but it was a TD

However I recalled a recent play (which I don't remember the details) - but a toe hit in, then the heel of the same foot landed out - and the play was incomplete. So that made me wonder, if the bottom of the forearm near the elbow hits first (and not the elbow direct) shouldn't there be a distinction between the two? Shouldn't a forearm hit be treated like the 'toe-to-heel' being one foot even if it happens in 2 parts? In which case, no TD for AB

Very semantic issue, but just something I was wondering. In the end it was called a TD so tough to overturn without being well versed in these details. Very close either way
Yes  
WideRight : 12/5/2016 12:10 pm : link
And his but landed in bounds before his elbow, so the elbow didn't really matter
Did it get a referee review or was it a booth review  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/5/2016 12:11 pm : link
to see if it should be reviewed?
Yes it was  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 12:12 pm : link
His lower body hit before the elbow came down.

That was easily the least of the controversial calls/non-calls from yesterday
RE: Once again I feel like it depends on the letter of the law here...  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13249998 ChaChing said:
Quote:
I'm 'guessing' that the elbow is separate and therefore was #2 hit inbounds...close but it was a TD

However I recalled a recent play (which I don't remember the details) - but a toe hit in, then the heel of the same foot landed out - and the play was incomplete. So that made me wonder, if the bottom of the forearm near the elbow hits first (and not the elbow direct) shouldn't there be a distinction between the two? Shouldn't a forearm hit be treated like the 'toe-to-heel' being one foot even if it happens in 2 parts? In which case, no TD for AB

Very semantic issue, but just something I was wondering. In the end it was called a TD so tough to overturn without being well versed in these details. Very close either way

That was last weeks game on an Int. The reason it was called that way is because of the natural progression of the step. The Db was running backwards when he made the INT his last step completed with the heel out of bounds. This TD by Brown was him falling sideways with both feet and his lower body hitting in bounds prior to the elbow going out
I thought I saw the elbow on the line, too.  
FranknWeezer : 12/5/2016 12:17 pm : link
Another one that got my interest was when AB toe-tapped on the sideline and it was ruled a catch. But when Apple did that on his overturned INT the week prior, because he touched a heel down after he touched down his second toe in-bounds, Apple's was ruled in complete. How's that any different than the fact that AB's next step was out of bounds. Both got two toes down in-bounds. Who gives a rip about what happens after that, so long as the ball is secure??
RE: I thought I saw the elbow on the line, too.  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13250015 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
Another one that got my interest was when AB toe-tapped on the sideline and it was ruled a catch. But when Apple did that on his overturned INT the week prior, because he touched a heel down after he touched down his second toe in-bounds, Apple's was ruled in complete. How's that any different than the fact that AB's next step was out of bounds. Both got two toes down in-bounds. Who gives a rip about what happens after that, so long as the ball is secure??


Brown was running forward when he went out of bounds, Apple was falling backward when he made the Int. Browns step progression ends with the toes, Apples ended with the heel out of bounds
I'm still extremely confused by this play.  
Mike in Long Beach : 12/5/2016 12:28 pm : link
.
Yes, it was a touchdown. Bigger question is why the FS  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2016 12:31 pm : link
there (Hall?) completely blew his supporting role. Jenkins has his back to the throw, but Hall should have been watching Ben make the toss since he didnt have to cover any deeper since it was the endzone.

This was in essence a jump ball and the Free Safety runs himself out of the play.

RE: I'm still extremely confused by this play.  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13250044 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
.

Think of it this way:

When walking forward the last thing your foot does is lift the toes
When walking backward the last thing it does is plant the heel.

A step is the completion of either the toe or the heel planting. That is why while moving forward two toes in = Completion, when moving backward two heels in = Completion. In the case of Brown, its the "one knee = two feet" type of catch with his lower body being the "Knee"
RE: RE: Once again I feel like it depends on the letter of the law here...  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13250010 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13249998 ChaChing said:


Quote:


I'm 'guessing' that the elbow is separate and therefore was #2 hit inbounds...close but it was a TD

However I recalled a recent play (which I don't remember the details) - but a toe hit in, then the heel of the same foot landed out - and the play was incomplete. So that made me wonder, if the bottom of the forearm near the elbow hits first (and not the elbow direct) shouldn't there be a distinction between the two? Shouldn't a forearm hit be treated like the 'toe-to-heel' being one foot even if it happens in 2 parts? In which case, no TD for AB

Very semantic issue, but just something I was wondering. In the end it was called a TD so tough to overturn without being well versed in these details. Very close either way


That was last weeks game on an Int. The reason it was called that way is because of the natural progression of the step. The Db was running backwards when he made the INT his last step completed with the heel out of bounds. This TD by Brown was him falling sideways with both feet and his lower body hitting in bounds prior to the elbow going out
The forearm hitting and the elbow hitting are considered the same, as with the shin and knee. Any of those scenarios would have resulted in a correct TD call.
If his lower did hit then it's an obv TD  
ChaChing : 12/5/2016 12:37 pm : link
but looking at the ESPN vid - to me his hip hits after his arm / elbow (best views are about 19s & 29s of vid). At which point my question about the distinction between elbow vs forearm is relevant. To me his elbow just hits in but arm continues to fold out until it hits out. Which is why I'd think it's important to be able to label which hit first - elbow or forearm (given the toe to foot ex). IMO it's his elbow so it seems a TD to me

And a sick play by AB as usual

Vid of TD - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I'm still extremely confused by this play.  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13250070 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13250044 Mike in Long Beach said:


Quote:


.


Think of it this way:

When walking forward the last thing your foot does is lift the toes
When walking backward the last thing it does is plant the heel.

A step is the completion of either the toe or the heel planting. That is why while moving forward two toes in = Completion, when moving backward two heels in = Completion. In the case of Brown, its the "one knee = two feet" type of catch with his lower body being the "Knee"
That's an interesting interpretation. What I read and heard last week made a little more sense, even if I don't agree. When a WR is trying to touch his toes down, he is doing just that tapping his toes (think a ballerina). When a player touches the bottom of the toes to the turf, it is considered part of planting the foot, which is not completed until the heels touch. I think it shouldn't matter as long as parts of both feet were in bounds while the player is in control of the ball.
RE: I thought I saw the elbow on the line, too.  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13250015 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
Another one that got my interest was when AB toe-tapped on the sideline and it was ruled a catch. But when Apple did that on his overturned INT the week prior, because he touched a heel down after he touched down his second toe in-bounds, Apple's was ruled in complete. How's that any different than the fact that AB's next step was out of bounds. Both got two toes down in-bounds. Who gives a rip about what happens after that, so long as the ball is secure??
It landed in bounds and then touched out of bounds. It was a catch and there was nothing that even made it a questionable call.
RE: If his lower did hit then it's an obv TD  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13250077 ChaChing said:
Quote:
but looking at the ESPN vid - to me his hip hits after his arm / elbow (best views are about 19s & 29s of vid). At which point my question about the distinction between elbow vs forearm is relevant. To me his elbow just hits in but arm continues to fold out until it hits out. Which is why I'd think it's important to be able to label which hit first - elbow or forearm (given the toe to foot ex). IMO it's his elbow so it seems a TD to me

And a sick play by AB as usual Vid of TD - ( New Window )
The way this rule has been explained for a couple of years has been consistent. Absent 2 feet, and other part of the extremities hitting (elbow, forearm, shin, knee, shoulder, hip) along with one foot, makes it a catch.
Ah ok  
ChaChing : 12/5/2016 1:00 pm : link
I hadn't heard that specific distinction til now, thanks
thanks for posting  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 1:03 pm : link
that's a TD in my book, but it makes me scratch my head even more about how Apple's INT last week was called incomplete. Apples toe to heel is penalized but not Browns elbow to forearm.

I get the rules state this as accurate, but it just doesn't make any sense at all to me.
RE: thanks for posting  
Matt M. : 12/5/2016 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13250162 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that's a TD in my book, but it makes me scratch my head even more about how Apple's INT last week was called incomplete. Apples toe to heel is penalized but not Browns elbow to forearm.

I get the rules state this as accurate, but it just doesn't make any sense at all to me.
Placing your foot flat on the floor when landing is a sequential movement started by the ball of the foot and completed with the heel coming down. They consider it one movement. Placing part of your arm is just that any part of the arm. There isn't a sequential order of movements.
right  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 1:06 pm : link
why....?
I will add  
UConn4523 : 12/5/2016 1:08 pm : link
that I do think Browns hip was down before he was out (negating this argument), but lets say it wasn't, i'm guessing its still upheld as a catch.

The question is if 2 feet down = 1 elbow/arm down (both signifying possession), why aren't they officiated the same?
Jenkins i think might have helped him stay in bounds  
rasbutant : 12/5/2016 1:52 pm : link
by trying to rip the ball he stop his momentum for carrying him out of bounds.
...  
bradshaw44 : 12/5/2016 1:54 pm : link
Couldn't Jenkins have pushed him out? That was my only issue because he was in.
RE: Yes  
Beer Man : 12/5/2016 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13249984 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
it was a legit catch and TD
Agree, the elbow came down in the end zone. Had there been safety help, it may have ended differently.
RE: ...  
Eman11 : 12/5/2016 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13250305 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Couldn't Jenkins have pushed him out? That was my only issue because he was in.


That was my initial thought as well but I think a db's first instinct is to break up the pass. In that moment though a big push might just have been enough to force him out. I can't really get on Jenkins there though, Hall, that's a completely different story. Where was he going? Did he see an imaginary receiver back there because I still can't figure out where the hell he was going.

That said, I had more of a question on AB's sideline catch than his TD catch. Yes AB did a great job getting two feet down and they made a big point of that but it sure looked to me like he bobbled/ recaught the ball and they never showed that. Might very well have been worth a challenge there IMO.
I agree  
bradshaw44 : 12/5/2016 3:38 pm : link
In the moment I get why he didn't push him. Just wish he would have. And help from hall would have been nice for sure.
How does something like this, where you fall down  
DonQuixote : 12/5/2016 6:29 pm : link
Relate to a non-catch with two feet down, because they did not make a football move. I suppose being down by contact is clear, in this case, but that notion of a "football move" escapes me.
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