for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Will Tye, Flowers, and the offense

B in ALB : 12/5/2016 3:48 pm
I'm sure that some of you noticed last night how often Tye was lined up on Flowers' side and absolutely never offered a chip or a shoulder to Harrison - but instead simply released and ran his route. To me, this is a real head-scratcher especially after we see some struggles with Flowers handling a much shorter rusher from the LB/DE spot. Tye HAS to chip there to either slow down or blow Harrison off his point of attack. Instead, right off the snap he releases and offers nothing in the way of blocking.

As for Flowers, he once again struggled against an opponent who is either much quicker or can play with such leverage that it makes it very difficult to get his hands engaged properly. Harrison is about 6'0" - probably more like 5'11" or less without the helmet and can get underneath Flowers who struggles bending at the knees and offering a solid base. And honestly, it's not that difficult a technique by the oncoming rusher. This affects him shooting his hands, allows for some sloppy footwork and can lead to a "holding" call. How many times did Harrison attempt a bullrush and get to the QB? Zero?

All that said, I watched him absolutely maul Harrison at times. When he was able to get a good kick step, punch, and engagement Harrison was thrown around like a rag doll. Not sure how many pressures he allowed last night - but it wasn't a ton. Maybe 6? And again, the revolving door at LG continues. Stability at that position, no assistance from his TE and at times poor technique are leading to some really crazy opinions on this site. Bench him, release him, bust this bust that. Madness.

And I think it's beyond clear that Eli Manning is having issues throwing the ball. You see him put everything into a throw and it's a wounded duck. I don't know if it's his shoulder, his back leg, or another injury - or just Father Time - but he cannot chuck it like he used to. The intermediate touch ball down the sideline of 35 yards - he's money. Anything beyond that is a prayer. Then you look at his footwork. At times, he is more skittish than he's ever been and this obviously affects his accuracy. He can still sling it at times - hitting a receiver in stride in tight windows - but he's having a rough go of it, missing some easy throws.

And I saw a little Laveon Bell in Paul Perkins last night - delaying hitting the hole for just a bit before exploding through the line and offering some wiggle. A very different runner than Jennings who needs to get better at pass blocking. I think we have a good one in this kid.

Please don't bring in Donnell, line him up at the slot position in the RZ after being out for several weeks, and expect the defense not to know what you're looking for. The LB got proper enough depth to take advantage of a poor throw and there was a Safety there to clean it up if Timmons doesn't get a hand on the ball. Poorly designed and executed play by McAdoo and the offense. Right there is the exact time to use Donnell as the decoy. Red Zone offense was a fucking JOKE last night.

Lastly, I noticed Shepard and the "glove" thing - pretty interesting that he is still tipping off plays.
Dan Duggan:  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 3:51 pm : link
I know you peruse the board. Just in the off chance the Giants are not aware of Shepard tipping the D off with his glove, can you please ask Duke McAdoo about this?
but B, don't you know Flowers sucks and needs to be benched? :-)  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2016 3:54 pm : link
Flowers is improving, but it's taking time. I agree with you, he gets zero help from scheme, not TE chipping, no FB on the field, 4 LGs in 4 weeks. All this heaped on a 21 year old who has played every game, many injured last year. And many of the holding calls have been bogus to me.

Many fools on this site.
Good stuff, B  
JonC : 12/5/2016 3:55 pm : link
I noticed the lack of help for EF, and agree Eli looks like he's losing it on some plays. They've got to find a way to block up his blind side, keep him secure and I'm sure some of his poor decisions and mechanical breakdowns will clear up.
B, given your experience with the OL.  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 3:55 pm : link
your take on Flowers? How much time do you give him before you wash your hands from him as an OLT? I mean, doesn't being very young deserve some understanding or am I being naive?
He gets another year  
B in ALB : 12/5/2016 3:57 pm : link
with a competent and reliable LG and TE.
RE: He gets another year  
Big Blue '56 : 12/5/2016 3:59 pm : link
In comment 13250639 B in ALB said:
Quote:
with a competent and reliable LG and TE.


So if he doesn't pass muster in another year, move him to ORT or inside a la Gallery?
Probably  
B in ALB : 12/5/2016 4:02 pm : link
and that may be a mid-year thing. But i'm not giving up on a 21 year old high draft pick with his size, strength, attitude, toughness and potential while the pieces around him are subpar.

Two toughest positions on the field - LT and QB - and they require a bit of patience.

RE: Good stuff, B  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2016 4:05 pm : link
In comment 13250635 JonC said:
Quote:
I noticed the lack of help for EF, and agree Eli looks like he's losing it on some plays. They've got to find a way to block up his blind side, keep him secure and I'm sure some of his poor decisions and mechanical breakdowns will clear up.


Jon, I think the middle of the OL (Richburg and Jerry) is the bigger issue. Teams are on to the fact that Richburg is not stout and running right at him. Was curious what you think.
meant to say JonC and B in ALB  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2016 4:09 pm : link
.....
Thanks B.....  
Reb8thVA : 12/5/2016 4:18 pm : link
Its quite obvious when Flowers screws up but its much harder for the untrained eye to know when he is actually doing well. Without Pugh in there he is going to struggle more. Finish out the season and then reevaluate whether to keep him at LT.

As for Eli, his mechanics are off because he is suffering from battered QB syndrome. If you look at his feet he's all jumpy. Bad fundamentals.
RE: He gets another year  
GloryDayz : 12/5/2016 4:19 pm : link
In comment 13250639 B in ALB said:
Quote:
with a competent and reliable LG and TE.


While I appreciate everything you said, but I'm sorry, you cant risk jeopardizing another season if he doesnt develop enough in 2017. Yes he's still young, and has a lots of potential, but sometimes you cant wait on potential for too long.

I agree, you do pencil him at LT during training camp & pre-season (maybe 3-4 games into the season MAX), but there has to be a Plan B on the roster, just in case. To be stuck with his ups and downs for another full season would be crazy
How would Pugh develop at LT if given time?  
GloryDayz : 12/5/2016 4:22 pm : link
Its all projections & "guess-timations", I know, but based on what we've seen from him so far, is he an option? Is arm length that big of a problem?
Richburg has regressed a bit  
B in ALB : 12/5/2016 4:22 pm : link
but again, the revolving door at the G position never helps.

Has the same unit started more than a few games over the course of this season? They've had what - 5 or 6 different LGs this year?

And I think this offensive scheme makes it very easy to gameplan against for the Front 7 of the opposing defense. I'd love to be in the film room the week of a game vs the Giants. If we can pick out some of this stuff from the couch - imagine having an entire staff breaking down film.
B in Alb  
shelovesnycsports : 12/5/2016 4:23 pm : link
Dead On See if when Pugh Comes back that EF is still having problems. Eli is hurt and it shows after the Bears game. He can not go deep and these teams see it. Since there is no back up worth playing we will have to tough it out. Hopefully he is back to normal strength to beat the Eagles and Redskins.
B in Albany  
eliapple : 12/5/2016 4:26 pm : link
Surprise? Who is our TE coach? Dallas has #1 Oline because
they use 2-3 TE's blocking and quess who coach is?
Pope, teaching old Giants line techniques..
Awesome B....  
Ceez2.0 : 12/5/2016 4:29 pm : link
We need more threads/posts like this.
Victor  
JonC : 12/5/2016 4:37 pm : link
B is on it imo, easy offense to gameplan for and the guard play on both sides while Pugh is out has been really inconsistent. Jerry constantly makes mistakes out there.
Well Gilbride jr...  
Johnny5 : 12/5/2016 4:44 pm : link
Is a way more better TE coach than Pope. He gotz mad skilz.

In all seriousness, I echoed someone else who said it might not be a bad thing to sit Flowers, because he reverts to horrible form on speed rush way to often, to my eyes. I think he has the goods to be great. But he has to be more consistent... and I don't think it's a bad thing as a punishment to bench him to get the message - IF - Pugh was healthy. Eli is off because he does not trust the protection... so even when it's good he is rushing his progressions and throws. IMO.
thanks B and Jon  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2016 4:45 pm : link
very insightful
Lots  
AcidTest : 12/5/2016 4:47 pm : link
of excuses for Flowers. It is only his second year, but he was having a lot of problems even with Pugh next to him for most of the season. I'm also not sure how the play of the guard next to him has anything to do with his technique or footwork. When he locks on, he can be lethal, but he's easily knocked off balance, and has problems with speed rushers. As I said, right now he looks like a better version of James Brewer.

I'm not sure how these problems will be fixed with another year. You either have the footwork to play LT, or you don't. Technique can compensate to some extent for marginal footwork, but his right now is bad, and his technique is also poor.

I understand why the Giants won't move or bench him this year, but they should at least give him some help on occasion. Absent radical improvement the rest of the year, I would look to move him to RT or RG next season.

Eli may be hurt from the hits he took against the Redskins and Bears. Or it may just be cumulative hits over the years. But he doesn't look the same.

Everybody knew we'd throw to Donnell. He should have been a decoy.
Tipping Off the Pass  
Jeffrey : 12/5/2016 4:48 pm : link
I laugh at this revelation by the Pitt players. Given the Giants mess upfront and the lack of a running game I believe that most teams will play the pass on most downs without looking at Shepard's gloves.

As for Eli, the problem has to be injury or time. His accuracy issues have always been there but unlike the past, he seldom overthrows a receiver on a deep route.
RE: Thanks B.....  
section125 : 12/5/2016 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13250689 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
I
As for Eli, his mechanics are off because he is suffering from battered QB syndrome. If you look at his feet he's all jumpy. Bad fundamentals.


Flat out bullshit battered QB syndrome. Eli was no more harassed than Ben. On one play, Eli for some reason panicked and threw a ball at Tye's feet when nobody was near him and any reasonable throw was any easy 1st down. I have no idea wtf he is doing, but he gets happy feet for no reason, and at other times (fewer and fewer) stands in a throws. It was clear the difference between the two last night. Roethlisberger will stand there and make a play taking the hit and Eli no longer is willing to do so. I'm not saying it is perfect for Eli in the pocket, but he is one of the least sacked and hit QBs in football. Hell last night he even escaped the pocket a few times and had time. Even on the throw to Shepard for the 2nd INT he got out and then badly under threw the ball. This is not the same Eli we remember.
RE: RE: Thanks B.....  
phillygiant : 12/5/2016 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13250756 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13250689 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


I
As for Eli, his mechanics are off because he is suffering from battered QB syndrome. If you look at his feet he's all jumpy. Bad fundamentals.



Flat out bullshit battered QB syndrome. Eli was no more harassed than Ben. On one play, Eli for some reason panicked and threw a ball at Tye's feet when nobody was near him and any reasonable throw was any easy 1st down. I have no idea wtf he is doing, but he gets happy feet for no reason, and at other times (fewer and fewer) stands in a throws. It was clear the difference between the two last night. Roethlisberger will stand there and make a play taking the hit and Eli no longer is willing to do so. I'm not saying it is perfect for Eli in the pocket, but he is one of the least sacked and hit QBs in football. Hell last night he even escaped the pocket a few times and had time. Even on the throw to Shepard for the 2nd INT he got out and then badly under threw the ball. This is not the same Eli we remember.


He was throwing across his body to the opposite side of the field, on the run without having an opportunity to get his feet set....

Of course the ball will be under thrown...duh

Terrible example
I said the same thing earlier today  
Bluesbreaker : 12/5/2016 5:14 pm : link
Flowers was struggling from the get go and neither TE or
RB was used to chip Harrison especially on pass plays or
designed down field plays . I am not a big supporter of
Flowers but he certainly is not getting away with the same
shit I see T. Smith from Dallas . The last one I remember was
EF got flagged for tossing a DE down something that Smith does
numerous times every game .
I think this crew had an agenda with OBJ and the giants
stemming from last year . Add in the comment to OBJ from the
Official maybe I am reaching but it makes you wonder .
Chip blocks  
JerseyCityJoe : 12/5/2016 5:54 pm : link
Remember when Brandon Jacobs would chip block the DE and put them on their ass. We miss that physical play no matter who is playing OL these days.
Random aside...  
OBJ_AllDay : 12/5/2016 6:14 pm : link
Jerrel Adams played that long ball like a female outfielder in a co-Ed softball league. Horrible.
Thanks B  
Jay in Toronto : 12/5/2016 6:20 pm : link
for some actual sanity and analysis vs all the sky is falling stuff
I'm losing some hope with this kid  
RAIN : 12/5/2016 6:21 pm : link
and it seems to me it's between his ears. He's 22 now, 23 in April.

All the talent in the world isn't going to make you listen. Technique change is about breaking your muscle memories and being humble while the change occurs. He is out over his toes, dips his head, and he grabs instead of punches. He's athletic enough to kick slide, but that requires him have some balance with knee bend.

He needs a ton of work. Is he humble enough to make it work? I hope he's getting lit up in film study, and he puts in an off-season of work. He'll be an interesting case in self improvement.
Rain  
XBRONX : 12/5/2016 6:52 pm : link
he had a great OL coach at Miami and?
Bottom Line  
Carl in CT : 12/5/2016 6:53 pm : link
It's up to the coaches to call a chip. Not in the huddle built on the sidelines. If a player has a route to run, he doesn't chip on his own the timing of the route would be off.
RE: Random aside...  
Vanzetti : 12/5/2016 6:54 pm : link
In comment 13250871 OBJ_AllDay said:
Quote:
Jerrel Adams played that long ball like a female outfielder in a co-Ed softball league. Horrible.


He played the ball like someone who completely lacks instincts. I don't think we have much in this kid. He flashed early but has done nothing since. Solid back up. Which is fine for a sixth round pick. Just don't expect anything beyond that.
RE: RE: Random aside...  
phillygiant : 12/5/2016 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13250920 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
In comment 13250871 OBJ_AllDay said:


Quote:


Jerrel Adams played that long ball like a female outfielder in a co-Ed softball league. Horrible.



He played the ball like someone who completely lacks instincts. I don't think we have much in this kid. He flashed early but has done nothing since. Solid back up. Which is fine for a sixth round pick. Just don't expect anything beyond that.


Amazing how you someone's entire career figured out after one play

If there was an IQ test to post on this site, you'd be permanently banned
RE: Bottom Line  
B in ALB : 12/6/2016 8:55 am : link
In comment 13250918 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
It's up to the coaches to call a chip. Not in the huddle built on the sidelines. If a player has a route to run, he doesn't chip on his own the timing of the route would be off.


Possibly - but you're not completely correct. Eli can call that in the huddle. Regardless, it was apparent that Flowers needed some help - especially on obvious passing downs.
RE: RE: RE: Thanks B.....  
section125 : 12/6/2016 9:18 am : link
In comment 13250763 phillygiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13250756 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13250689 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


I
As for Eli, his mechanics are off because he is suffering from battered QB syndrome. If you look at his feet he's all jumpy. Bad fundamentals.



Flat out bullshit battered QB syndrome. Eli was no more harassed than Ben. On one play, Eli for some reason panicked and threw a ball at Tye's feet when nobody was near him and any reasonable throw was any easy 1st down. I have no idea wtf he is doing, but he gets happy feet for no reason, and at other times (fewer and fewer) stands in a throws. It was clear the difference between the two last night. Roethlisberger will stand there and make a play taking the hit and Eli no longer is willing to do so. I'm not saying it is perfect for Eli in the pocket, but he is one of the least sacked and hit QBs in football. Hell last night he even escaped the pocket a few times and had time. Even on the throw to Shepard for the 2nd INT he got out and then badly under threw the ball. This is not the same Eli we remember.



He was throwing across his body to the opposite side of the field, on the run without having an opportunity to get his feet set....

Of course the ball will be under thrown...duh

Terrible example


No a perfect example. Eli under threw several times Sunday.
Was it a tough throw? Yes absolutely. He's not John Elway strong, but he has (or had) a very strong arm.

BTW, here's the replay. He throws from the 35 and gets picked at the 6. Shepard was open if the ball reaches the goal line. Ball is probably in the air 35/40 yards - the velocity looks good, but not enough air. 5 yards further and it is probably a TD.
Eli 2nd INT - ( New Window )
its why i think its scheme and not talent issue  
hitdog42 : 12/6/2016 9:20 am : link
when you set a player up to fail on the 1 yard line and dont have your TE chip.... then guess what... we will fail.... especially on the road.

chip the fking guy and get on your route... its not like we are sending him downfield
Let's at least be factual with Flowers.  
Diver_Down : 12/6/2016 9:28 am : link
He is 22. He is young, strong and has proven the ability to play through pain and injury. His rookie year in the NFL he gets a pass on technique as he was limping around on a high ankle sprain that would have sent anyone else to the bench. With that being said, this Sunday will be his 28th game played at LT. It is not an unrealistic expectation to show marked improvement in his performance 28 games later. The scholarship mentality needs to be tempered when dealing with a top 10 pick.

Perhaps, his college experience should have given us some clues. He played 13 games at LT in his Sophomore year. His Junior year he only started 5 games at LT. The other games he played in other positions on the OL or was injured. Even still the games still count in his development. Overall, the young man has played 45 games at LT. His fundamental technique should not be this bad with 45 games under his belt.

That being said, he's our LT for this season. Competition needs to be brought in for next year whether it is a draft pick, FA, or Pugh. Let the best earn the spot. If it is Flowers, then so be it.
Let's also be factual with Tye  
Bob in Newburgh : 12/6/2016 11:09 am : link
Unless you saw him whiff, he has been coached to not chip block. Why? is above my pay grade.

Man has some talent, good straight-line speed, bulky build. Yes he is a little (we are talking 1 inch here) short.

Came into the League as a UDFA with a senior year at perennial powerhouse SUNY Stony Brook. No one has argued that he has phenomenal TE physical talent, but if used correctly he might have starter talent and appears to have bottom of roster talent for sure.

Personnel people would tell you that if the kid is not a natural, and he is not, he will need 2 years to be a worthwhile pro player.

Please  
dboom : 12/6/2016 4:13 pm : link
Flowers is not even close to the worst player on the line... Not even close. Richburg has spent the season on his back.
Back to the Corner