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Shaun O'Hara down on Flowers and Cruz

Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/5/2016 5:32 pm
Shaun O'Hara & #8207;@ShaunOHara60 16m16 minutes ago Franklin Lakes, NJ

Just watched the NYGvsPIT film. Can't un-see that. Flowers even worse than I thought& #128563; Cruz wasn't open at all& #129300; Lots to fix b4 #SNF
I haven't watched the game again, but if that's true on Cruz  
BLUATHRT : 12/5/2016 5:33 pm : link
it's scary that he believes he had separation.
The offense is literally a disaster.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/5/2016 5:33 pm : link
No hyperbole, no exaggeration. And it's been a disaster since the pre-season. The fact that very little to nothing has improved with this offense since August isn't very re-assuring, either.
I'm a huge fan of Cruz  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/5/2016 5:37 pm : link
but it is clear that he isn't the same player.

I'm not expecting him to be in blue next year. He just isn't a fit here anymore. Sheppard is the slot guy. They need a big target opposite Beckham.
The worst  
Josh in the City : 12/5/2016 5:37 pm : link
part about the offense is it doesn't seem like we're trying anything new. We just keep trying the same 3 WR set shotgun offense that doesn't seem to be working. Why not at least try some new personnel or play calling and see what happens. I understand we run a certain scheme and it's hard to adjust mid season but come on...something need to change.
Flowers peaked  
Joey in VA : 12/5/2016 5:41 pm : link
Against the Vikings when everyone else was garbage and he has cratered since. His list of allies grows thin
The roster is not particularly good,  
Mr. Bungle : 12/5/2016 5:41 pm : link
and the head coach was deemed the heir apparent by ownership before he did anything to earn it.
Cruz never had success on the outside  
Johnny5 : 12/5/2016 5:47 pm : link
even when healthy. He's a slot guy... put him in the slot and put Lewis or King on the outside and see what happens? Ugghh. This is just SO disturbing. I feel like I'm watching the movie Groundhog day! Every single offensive performance in every single game this year, including preseason looks like the same game against the same defense but just changing uniforms.
Maybe  
nicks14 : 12/5/2016 5:49 pm : link
If o'hare didn't stink as bad as he did in his last year we would have beat the Eagles in that second game but nope he was utter garbage.
RE: The roster is not particularly good,  
Josh in the City : 12/5/2016 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13250838 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
and the head coach was deemed the heir apparent by ownership before he did anything to earn it.


The defense has been fantastic. And why is the offense worse this year than last year? I would think Sheppard and Cruz are an upgrade to our WR's last yr (outside of OBJ). Oline is the same and starting RB is the same. The roster is simply not a legitimate excuse for why this offense has taken a major step backwards this season.
Jesus  
Joey in VA : 12/5/2016 5:51 pm : link
One loss and it's like McAdoo fucked everyone's wife in here.
I don't blame him on Cruz  
montanagiant : 12/5/2016 5:55 pm : link
You watch that complete lack of effort by him to block on that one quick pass to OB in the first half that netted us 3 yards. If Cruz had at least gotten in his defenders way that would have been at least 5 more yards and a first.

He is not the player he once was
??????????  
Bluesbreaker : 12/5/2016 5:56 pm : link
Its the same crap each week about getting better .
Cruz no targets My door is always open .. Coach these are
individuals do you ever talk to them if he isn't getting
open maybe you should sit him or let him know .
Flowers we did what to help him ???????????
It was clear from the get go that he was struggling ..
Coach the offense is 30th in the NFL what are you doing to
change this up it certainly isn't working and it's getting
worse .
Heavy Handed in what way we are getting our butts kicked
on both lines . 3 of the 4 starters were nicked up mainly
because there starting to wear down IMO ..
Coach its your offense and your play calling how do
2 and 3 WR's don't see targets in consecutive games .
Were down to OBJ getting 6 yard passes while trying to
out maneuver 3-4 defenders ..
I was joking that the whole world new about the tip off
by touching the gloves apparently Coach did not ....
The offense looks like a rudderless ship ....
RE: Cruz never had success on the outside  
Eman11 : 12/5/2016 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13250841 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
even when healthy. He's a slot guy... put him in the slot and put Lewis or King on the outside and see what happens? Ugghh. This is just SO disturbing. I feel like I'm watching the movie Groundhog day! Every single offensive performance in every single game this year, including preseason looks like the same game against the same defense but just changing uniforms.


I'd sure like to see some 4-wide with VC and SS in the slot positions.
If not for Odell  
XBRONX : 12/5/2016 5:57 pm : link
we would have the worst skill players and line in the league.
RE: Cruz never had success on the outside  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/5/2016 6:06 pm : link
In comment 13250841 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
even when healthy. He's a slot guy... put him in the slot and put Lewis or King on the outside and see what happens? Ugghh. This is just SO disturbing.


Sheppard is the slot, and he is a better player than Cruz at this point. Sheppard is also an ascending talent, he will be part of the solution. Cruz likely will not.

At this point they what they can with the personnel they have, but replacing Sheppard with Cruz isn't really an improvement.
RE: I don't blame him on Cruz  
David in LA : 12/5/2016 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13250854 montanagiant said:
Quote:
You watch that complete lack of effort by him to block on that one quick pass to OB in the first half that netted us 3 yards. If Cruz had at least gotten in his defenders way that would have been at least 5 more yards and a first.

He is not the player he once was


Love Cruz, but good point about his blocking prowess. I remember him half assing a block for Ahmad Bradshaw that would have sprung him loose for a big game, and you saw AB all up in his face about it.
Cruz relied on quickness to get open  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 12/5/2016 6:13 pm : link
Not raw speed. Doesn't seem like he has the quickness any more. Him not getting open consistently has really hurt the offense. It's a shame.
RE: The roster is not particularly good,  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/5/2016 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13250838 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
and the head coach was deemed the heir apparent by ownership before he did anything to earn it.


Why must everything always be black and white?

They lost, yes. They are also 8-4. The roster is clearly improved from last year, and even by the strictest standards McAdoo has had a successful rookie season.
It's the arrogance of the Giants organization  
Vanzetti : 12/5/2016 6:44 pm : link
It was obvious they needed to sign a tackle. Penn and Okung both wound up signing relatively inexpensive contracts. Denver and Raiders were up against the cap at that point and it would have been easy for the Giants to leverage a deal.

But they were convinced that they knew best and Flowers would be the LT. He might still evolve into one but he quite clearly can't handle the job right now and needs to be at RT or maybe even RG.

The two SB wins convinced this organization they were smarter than everyone else. Old Man Coughlin was the problem and as soon as they got rid of him, everything would be fine. They continued with the "Giants way" and hired Sullivan because he had organizational ties rather than hiring Philbin, who was a better fit. (And being an Irish Catholic definitely did not hurt Sullivan's chances)

They ignored that Sullivan is just as inexperienced as Ben and that he presided over the worst offense in the league his second year in Tampa. Somehow these two novices were supposed to figure it out? And they are supposed to figure it out with a makeshift OL?

Most fans and analysts thought the OL was a problem heading into the season. Turns out they were right and the Giants brass was wrong. It's a shame because the OL has some talent. Guys are just not in the right positions to succeed. A quality LT would completely transform this line. Not a superstar. Just a guy who can play the position because at this point Ereck Flowers is not an NFL caliber LT.



If I didn't know better  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/5/2016 7:01 pm : link
I'd swear this team was 2-10 reading the posts today.
RE: Jesus  
adamg : 12/5/2016 7:09 pm : link
In comment 13250850 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
One loss and it's like McAdoo fucked everyone's wife in here.


And it was virtually the least important game on our schedule remaining and the one we were most likely to lose.
I hate to be right about cruz  
djm : 12/5/2016 7:10 pm : link
But I had a feeling things would go against conventional wisdom this season and Cruz WOULD play in the majority of games and he would in fact stay relatively healthy. And this time next season Cruz would be on another team if he's lucky or quite likely not even playing in the NFL. It hit me in late August. Guys just don't come back at age 30 after two years away. The fact that Cruz is even playing is a testimont to his character and work ethic.
Regarding Cruz  
rocco8112 : 12/5/2016 7:19 pm : link
I heard the Eli interview on WFAN today, and he was asked about targets and Cruz talking about it etc.

Eli had an answer about how he does not think about targets and it is his job to find the open guy based on the defense.
and so on.

He then described a play, which I think was an early play when he had lots of time and threw it up to Adams.

He said on that play Cruz was the number one option and as gently as possible explained that he was covered and was not open. I imagine that there is a lot of that happening. I will always like Cruz for what he has done for this team and great moments as a fan. He still comes down with some big grabs, but he is like a tiny possession receiver now. Limited. Giants start a lot of guys on offense who are limited , Jennings and Tye come to mind. This is part of why the offense is bad, and there is no run game so the defense stacks against the pass.

Still, this offense was good enough to win eight . Would like to see two more and the Giants can get in the dance.
Team is a lot better than last year  
bc4life : 12/5/2016 7:23 pm : link
Their FB/HB got injured. Pugh is out. There is a respectable amount of evidence that Flowers is playing out of position - point being the OL is not where it needs to be. With a solidified OLine, and a FB - the run game starts clicking - that changes everything.

RE: leverage to get Okung or Penn. Leverage was used, by them, to land in the spot they thought best for them. Not that hard to understand.
My neighbor went to the game and gave me a full download...  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2016 7:28 pm : link
said Cruz and other Giant targets not named OBJ were not really open from his viewpoint. Said Shepard was on a few occasions but in areas opposite of where Eli was on field (like the last pick). He laughed when I told him the Cruz controversy.

Said Steelers had hands all over OBJ at every level on the field whether it was a run or pass. But that the guy worked harder than he had ever seen a WR work to get open.




RE: Regarding Cruz  
GloryDayz : 12/5/2016 7:32 pm : link
In comment 13250951 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
I heard the Eli interview on WFAN today, and he was asked about targets and Cruz talking about it etc.

Eli had an answer about how he does not think about targets and it is his job to find the open guy based on the defense.
and so on.

He then described a play, which I think was an early play when he had lots of time and threw it up to Adams.

He said on that play Cruz was the number one option and as gently as possible explained that he was covered and was not open. I imagine that there is a lot of that happening. I will always like Cruz for what he has done for this team and great moments as a fan. He still comes down with some big grabs, but he is like a tiny possession receiver now. Limited. Giants start a lot of guys on offense who are limited , Jennings and Tye come to mind. This is part of why the offense is bad, and there is no run game so the defense stacks against the pass.

Still, this offense was good enough to win eight . Would like to see two more and the Giants can get in the dance.


Probably just fan bias, huge Cruz fan, he's Cruz has been a great player, great story for an undrafted local boy to a superstar and a huge part of a SB run, and great off the field... I'm hoping its just taking him longer to fully recover and get the feel of the game back. Hoping Giants keep him in 2017 (at a discount), and makes a huge comeback.

Unrealistic, I know. But hopeful
Beckham doesn't need a big receiver opposite him  
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2016 7:44 pm : link
He needs an open one. And that shouldn't be an issue with all the attention he draws. Nicks, Cruz, Manningham: 6' and under.
Another thing about Cruz that everyone forgets  
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2016 7:54 pm : link
is that this isn't the offense he was successful in. He was good at executing Gilbride's offense with all of those option routes. He played in something similar at UMass. It was geared toward his strengths: his mind, vision and quickness.

The guy getting open in McAdoo's offense is a physical mismatch. That's never been Cruz.
RE: Beckham doesn't need a big receiver opposite him  
shyster : 12/5/2016 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13250979 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
He needs an open one. And that shouldn't be an issue with all the attention he draws. Nicks, Cruz, Manningham: 6' and under.


Nicks was a legit 6'1" 212 lb at his combine. And a beast who played big. Furthest thing from a smurf.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Beckham doesn't need a big receiver opposite him  
widmerseyebrow : 12/5/2016 8:06 pm : link
In comment 13250998 shyster said:
Quote:
In comment 13250979 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


He needs an open one. And that shouldn't be an issue with all the attention he draws. Nicks, Cruz, Manningham: 6' and under.



Nicks was a legit 6'1" 212 lb at his combine. And a beast who played big. Furthest thing from a smurf. Link - ( New Window )


He stopped getting open though and that's why we showed him the door. He didn't shrink.
RE: RE: RE: Beckham doesn't need a big receiver opposite him  
shyster : 12/5/2016 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13251004 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:



He stopped getting open though and that's why we showed him the door. He didn't shrink.


A big receiver (one who plays big) can make a little separation go a long way by using his body to shield the defender. And he can get extra yards by beasting defenders once he has possession.

Those are dimensions the "real" Nicks brought to the table that the current Giants' offense needs and does not have.
they should put Cruz back in the slot and Sheppard on the outside  
gtt350 : 12/5/2016 8:45 pm : link
.
Presume they tried that in practice? Nevertheless, Shepard has  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2016 8:58 pm : link
just got to get better hopefully sooner. Cruz needs to find the bench as he really is done. Even his better plays this year were do more to great throws by Eli than Cruz doing anything special.

Unfortunately they are left with Lewis and King.

Did Harris get out on routes yesterday?

Vereen...we need you!
Cruz Cannot Play Outside  
Bernie : 12/5/2016 9:00 pm : link
he has no ability to beat anyone off the line of scrimmage. Anyone who attends the games can see this. I fear he has lost the quickness that made him effective in the slot. I think his career is over.
No way.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 12/5/2016 9:03 pm : link
Shepard is neither fast nor physical which is what is needed to be an effective wideout. Like it or not, both he and Cruz are slot receivers.
RE: Jesus  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2016 10:25 pm : link
In comment 13250850 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
One loss and it's like McAdoo fucked everyone's wife in here.


Haha. Nice.
RE: No way.  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2016 10:28 pm : link
In comment 13251075 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
Shepard is neither fast nor physical which is what is needed to be an effective wideout. Like it or not, both he and Cruz are slot receivers.


Shepard is plenty fast and is an outstanding route runner. Cruz is the next best receiver when going to 11 personnel. If we had a TE that could threaten a defense, we would be fine, but we don't.
RE: If not for Odell  
Jesse B : 12/6/2016 7:44 am : link
In comment 13250859 XBRONX said:
Quote:
we would have the worst skill players and line in the league.


Not if you take everyone's else's best player away.

If it wasn't for tom Brady the patriots would have the worst QB situation in the league.

If it wasn't for Aj Green the Bengals WR wouldn't be very good.


if it wasn't for Khalil Mack the raiders pass rushers would be the worst in the league.


RE: Cruz relied on quickness to get open  
Giants2012 : 12/6/2016 8:07 am : link
In comment 13250869 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
Not raw speed. Doesn't seem like he has the quickness any more. Him not getting open consistently has really hurt the offense. It's a shame.


News flash: Beckham isn't getting open as often either anymore. It's not quickness. Yet again, the defenses have caught up to the offenses in many games. That home run ball league wide from last season has been controlled league wide since opening day.

Maybe Cruz lost half a step but he's not the problem. Put him in the slot or on New England and he does better.
RE: Another thing about Cruz that everyone forgets  
trueblueinpw : 12/6/2016 8:11 am : link
In comment 13250986 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
is that this isn't the offense he was successful in. He was good at executing Gilbride's offense with all of those option routes. He played in something similar at UMass. It was geared toward his strengths: his mind, vision and quickness.

The guy getting open in McAdoo's offense is a physical mismatch. That's never been Cruz.


Good point. This points to a problem with coaching. Good coaches fit their systems to personnel strengths. For reasons I've never understood, not such good coaches try to get players to adapt to the requirements of their system or concepts. I see the Pats running a pretty good offense with mostly slot type receivers and an Oline which isn't loaded with pro bowl talent (yes, they have Brady and two great pass catching TEs). The Cowboys get a lot of big plays from Cole Beasley. Is Cole Beasley really that much better than Cruz at "getting open"?
Giants organization had already moved on from Cruz  
Bob in Newburgh : 12/6/2016 8:33 am : link
The premium pick of SS who only projects to the slot and his insertion as an immediate starter at the position should have given you all at least a hint.

Giants need to expand the field in a direction away from OBJ. This can be done with a big WR with competitive or better speed or a normal sized WR with track star speed. The threat is actually more important than the actual production, although getting both would be nice.
Tired Of Cruz  
siena16 : 12/6/2016 8:46 am : link
I'm tired of Victor Cruz, Giants treated him well financially during his two years on the sidelines. He's gonna complain about not being targeted. Does anyone think if Cruz was open Eli wouldn't target him. Lets move on from Victor, trust me teams won't be lining up to sign him
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