for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Flowers safety

I Love Clams Casino : 12/6/2016 8:31 am
Lazy? Bad technique? ..is Flowers just slow? Is he really that bad? In retrospect, Flowers should have just pushed him to the ground like a matador.

I'm not an expert on technique so please help me out here....Harrison went low and worked his head up between Flowers arms....we all know "between the tits"....how much of this is bad technique by Flowers? Would have almost any T in the league been beaten by the same move?

And another question, how ticky tack was the call? My feeling is that it could have been called, 30% and not called 70%. I know Fox's contract wouldn't last long if Buck and Aikman went against the company line and called B.S on such a pivotal play, so when Aikman says "it's a good call" I'm not sure I believe him.
As soon as Flowers  
Gman11 : 12/6/2016 8:35 am : link
engages with the d-lineman he lowers his head. That's when he got beat and then had to stick his arm out to try and slow down the opponent and grabbed his helmet.

Yes, it's bad technique and I don't know much about offensive linemen's technique. I do know that lowering your head like you're about to head butt the guy is not the way to pass block.
On the radio..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 8:37 am : link
Banks and Papa said it was a bad call, but they were still reeling from the OPI on Beckham (which put us in a position to have a safety to begin with). They also wanted to know why a hold wasn't called when the Steelers were in the end zone later in the game.

They talked a lot about the inconsistency in calls and pointed out how Eli was unusually animated on several plays after Beckham was mugged.
Awful technique, which I've noticed all year from Flowers  
jlukes : 12/6/2016 8:38 am : link
he does not know how to use his long arms.

Far too often he allows the defenders in on his body rather than punching them and keeping them at a distance with good arm extension. Once the defender gets on his body he loses leverage and resorts to putting his arms over the back of them.

He is basically just asking for a penalty to be called.

Dude needs to learn to use his length.
Not an obvious penalty, may not have been an offensive penalty  
Bob in Newburgh : 12/6/2016 8:39 am : link
That it was called to give points to the Steelers is a strong suggestion that the "fix" was in. Steelers using pass interference, and getting away with it, as their standard pass defense confirms it.

Unwritten rule is that Safety by penalty is to be avoided except in "no question" infractions.
Was it a penalty? Mmmmm, yes  
section125 : 12/6/2016 8:39 am : link
Was it ticky tack, yes. Should it have been called? Not really.

It especially should not have been called seeing what the Steelers offensive line got away with. Villanueva had his arm across Vernon's chest all night. Or, maybe the officials should have called the Steelers frequently if that call was the standard.

It looked to me like the call was complete BS.  
jsuds : 12/6/2016 8:41 am : link
Just the refs ganging up on the Giants as if they have some sort of vendetta against us. Went that way the whole night and that one set the tone. Goes that way frequently with NFL refs these days, but I think the attention on Beckham and refs negating big plays for the Giants is a trend, not an anomaly.
And while I know it isn't a vendetta..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 8:43 am : link
look at that sequence. Beckham gets called for OPI the play before, which is the only reason Eli was throwing from the end zone to even allow a chance at the safety. Instead of a first down on the completion to Beckham, it is 2 points for the Steelers and the ball.

When people say calls don't make an impact, that is a prime example of one.

Another would be not calling PI on Beckham getting his arm grabbed in the end zone which would've been 1st and goal - instead, the next play is an INT returned to Giants territory and an eventual TD.
Complete BS???  
jlukes : 12/6/2016 8:44 am : link
Flowers grabbed Harrison by the back of his helmet and redirected him.

Piss poor technique  
GiantsRage2007 : 12/6/2016 8:54 am : link
Flowers drops his head when he tries to punch. If he mistimes his punch or doesn't connect he bear hugs the defensive player. Kid is what 6'5" 340? If he cleans that up he *should* be very very good.

To be fair even the best LT in the league didn't come into the league that way. It takes a few years. It is a little worrisome he seems to be getting worse not better - although the year isn't over.
RE: On the radio..  
Johnny5 : 12/6/2016 9:00 am : link
In comment 13251325 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Banks and Papa said it was a bad call, but they were still reeling from the OPI on Beckham (which put us in a position to have a safety to begin with). They also wanted to know why a hold wasn't called when the Steelers were in the end zone later in the game.

They talked a lot about the inconsistency in calls and pointed out how Eli was unusually animated on several plays after Beckham was mugged.

Yep it was ridiculous. It wouldn't be so bad if they would call things consistently. It's the inconsistency that drives me absolutely nuts.
bad calls change games  
GiantNatty : 12/6/2016 9:00 am : link
it's like in baseball- one bad call on a pitch changes the complexion of an at-bat, which can change the complexion of a game.

in football, one bad call changes the complexion of a possession, which can change the complexion of a game.

it was a crap call, ESPECIALLY on the heels of a horrendous call of OPI on beckham.
RE: Piss poor technique  
Johnny5 : 12/6/2016 9:03 am : link
In comment 13251356 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
Flowers drops his head when he tries to punch. If he mistimes his punch or doesn't connect he bear hugs the defensive player. Kid is what 6'5" 340? If he cleans that up he *should* be very very good.

To be fair even the best LT in the league didn't come into the league that way. It takes a few years. It is a little worrisome he seems to be getting worse not better - although the year isn't over.

I don't think he's getting worse... but he is not getting consistently better in pass pro... and this is only against speed rushers. Eric had a great point in his game review... imagine him on the Steelers. Guaranteed they would be utilizing him to his strengths, which the biggest one is mauling people as a run blocker. The fact that we were not chipping Harrison EVER was disturbing.
I think the main issue  
VenteSette : 12/6/2016 9:27 am : link
is that the standard shot of the game was from the Giants left. From that view it didn't really look like Flowers did anything. When they showed the play from the Giants right or the endzone cam it was pretty obvious he mugged Harrison around the head.

In real time I thought Eli was going to get blasted and was surprised Harrison didn't get there, so I would say it made a difference.
The refs  
oldog : 12/6/2016 9:29 am : link
made a shambles of this game, and turned it into a ref fest. This is a common enough NFL pattern, before a big home crowd the refs try to ingratiate themselves. Even worse, as they did in this game, after things start to get out of hand for the visiting team, they get zealous in the other direction, and give the visitors a meaningless call or two. With only 16 games in a full season, this is one of the main reasons why in the NFL any team can beat any other team on a given Sunday, simply the refs can turn almost any game with a call or two. Its often, just a roll of the dice. Speaking of which, the two factors in the 3 point lead that oddsmakers give to the home team, are the home crowd, and the referee bias.
Where have you gone  
mrvax : 12/6/2016 9:42 am : link
William Beatty?
Flowers  
AcidTest : 12/6/2016 10:07 am : link
has a reputation as a penalty machine with bad technique. The refs are watching him. He isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt. He also could have been called for holding on the Jennings TD.
RE: Was it a penalty? Mmmmm, yes  
Beer Man : 12/6/2016 10:12 am : link
In comment 13251329 section125 said:
Quote:
Was it ticky tack, yes. Should it have been called? Not really.

It especially should not have been called seeing what the Steelers offensive line got away with. Villanueva had his arm across Vernon's chest all night. Or, maybe the officials should have called the Steelers frequently if that call was the standard.
Agree, it was no worse than what anyone on the Steeler's OL was doing when Ben was standing in the end-zone. In reality, the zebras can call holding on the O on just about every play.
RE: Where have you gone  
Gman11 : 12/6/2016 10:15 am : link
In comment 13251430 mrvax said:
Quote:
William Beatty?
Our nation turns it's lonely eyes to you. Woo woo woo.
RE: Awful technique, which I've noticed all year from Flowers  
Joey in VA : 12/6/2016 10:23 am : link
In comment 13251327 jlukes said:
Quote:
he does not know how to use his long arms.

Far too often he allows the defenders in on his body rather than punching them and keeping them at a distance with good arm extension. Once the defender gets on his body he loses leverage and resorts to putting his arms over the back of them.

He is basically just asking for a penalty to be called.

Dude needs to learn to use his length.
Uhh not technically correct. Arm extension and hand punch are not the same thing and actually overextending his arms is part of his problem. Keeping your shoulders square in line with your hips and keeping a wide power base is the key. He tends to lunge with his arms and that gets him in trouble because it raises his center of gravity and makes him an easy target to rip past or shove backward. His arm length will come in to play when his arms are in tight and punching up into a defenders chest. It's the length he has that will be advantageous once he punches because the punch should be farther from his body than a guy with shorter arms. BUT to say he needs to extend his arms farther is very very wrong, it is actually what he does too often and it's a fundamental error.
RE: Awful technique, which I've noticed all year from Flowers  
ColHowPepper : 12/6/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13251327 jlukes said:
Quote:
he does not know how to use his long arms.
Far too often he allows the defenders in on his body rather than punching them and keeping them at a distance with good arm extension....
Pretty much agree with the opinions on this thread. jlukes, re. the last sentence in your comment, it may be though that, even with good arm extension and the punch, that tends to open space between him and the DE/rusher, but that's where he gets in trouble, because he's usually slower to react and to move to the spot of leverage to keep the rusher out of the pocket, mixed bag.
RE: RE: On the radio..  
jsuds : 12/6/2016 10:38 am : link
In comment 13251364 Johnny5 said:
Quote:

Yep it was ridiculous. It wouldn't be so bad if they would call things consistently. It's the inconsistency that drives me absolutely nuts.


They are consistent. Consistently well short of the upper echelons of mediocrity.
RE: And while I know it isn't a vendetta..  
RetroJint : 12/6/2016 10:47 am : link
In comment 13251338 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
look at that sequence. Beckham gets called for OPI the play before, which is the only reason Eli was throwing from the end zone to even allow a chance at the safety. Instead of a first down on the completion to Beckham, it is 2 points for the Steelers and the ball.

When people say calls don't make an impact, that is a prime example of one.

Another would be not calling PI on Beckham getting his arm grabbed in the end zone which would've been 1st and goal - instead, the next play is an INT returned to Giants territory and an eventual TD.

These are all salient points. Sad thing is part of that great Steeler Dec home record is the favoritism always shown the Rooney family by the league officials. As for Beckham, Mara has to do something about this horseshit . Mentioned this in September . The coaching staff can send all the play cuts it wants to the head of officials. Have to think Coughlin is in there , as well, trying to help. But these are capos . They behave like syndicate family heads. It's time for the Giants leader to start acting like one. If he defaults to the man of wealth and taste, a Hall of Fame career will disappear like the morning fog.
and thoughts about the  
I Love Clams Casino : 12/6/2016 10:48 am : link
games McAuley and his crew have reffed for the Giants?

Aren't they the crew on 3 of the 4 losses?

You can't get inside a guy's head, but when a consistent pattern is shown, there should at least be some questions asked. I know I sound like a bad little league parent, but if this were a court of law, I think the Giants would win the case.....

Nothing to be done....still doesn't mean that it doesn't SUCK
McAuley did..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 10:51 am : link
this game and the Redskins game. But they also did the game vs. Panthers last year.

Basically, they reffed one of the biggest fiascos last year, reffed a game where they threw the first player out in the league for getting two unsportsmanlike penalties (Richburg), and then the shitfest sunday.

I think crews are limited to only two games per team a year in the regular season.
RE: RE: Awful technique, which I've noticed all year from Flowers  
jlukes : 12/6/2016 10:56 am : link
In comment 13251515 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13251327 jlukes said:


Quote:


he does not know how to use his long arms.

Far too often he allows the defenders in on his body rather than punching them and keeping them at a distance with good arm extension. Once the defender gets on his body he loses leverage and resorts to putting his arms over the back of them.

He is basically just asking for a penalty to be called.

Dude needs to learn to use his length.

Uhh not technically correct. Arm extension and hand punch are not the same thing and actually overextending his arms is part of his problem. Keeping your shoulders square in line with your hips and keeping a wide power base is the key. He tends to lunge with his arms and that gets him in trouble because it raises his center of gravity and makes him an easy target to rip past or shove backward. His arm length will come in to play when his arms are in tight and punching up into a defenders chest. It's the length he has that will be advantageous once he punches because the punch should be farther from his body than a guy with shorter arms. BUT to say he needs to extend his arms farther is very very wrong, it is actually what he does too often and it's a fundamental error.


Yup, he needs to learnt manage his center of gravity - it is either over his toes or back on his heels - needs to stay centered so he can maintain leverage
The Penalty was BS  
Bluesbreaker : 12/6/2016 11:26 am : link
Harrison has made a living making LT look silly even at 38
he still has a great burst and lean . Flowers should have
been given some help I have no idea why the coaches didn't
do a damn thing when there were problems from the get
go . Sorry Mac didn't coach good enough this game and whatever
there trying to do offensively is working either .
The one thing left that may resurrect the offense is the
return of Shane Vereen and of course Justin Pugh .
Shane will give Eli a better option to move the chains
and Vereen could be the key to making the defense change
the way they are stopping the run game ...
We or at least many of us exploded and for good reason the
poor play from the offense but I just think this could
be the defining moment of the season . Vereen could
get the run game going and Eli will feed off the fact
that they can't ignore the run and tee off on him .
I don't know where everybody has been  
NikkiMac : 12/6/2016 11:43 am : link
But The Steelers have been getting these calls for years ever since the immaculate reception . Al Davis used to complain all the time and he's was right

I don't know if it's that these teams were the teams of the seventies who these refs more relate too or what.

The other team I'm referring too is the Cowboys of course

Now there also was rumor that because Mara played hardball in negotiating the referees contract they're sticking to the Giants when they can I'm not so sure about that one ..... The Fat Man is right these are impact calls and it's been going on for years .
im guessing a lot of people  
Mighty : 12/6/2016 12:14 pm : link
didnt see the replay from the view of the right side of the line. The original shot was from the left and you couldnt see the hold but on the replay from the right you could see he clearly grabbed his helmet and redirected him by the helmet. That will be called a penalty every single time and it should be. Thats the type of play that will cause serious neck injuries.

I still hold out hope for him to develop as he is young and very talented but the most important thing for a LT is what he struggles with most. I still think he is better off starting at a different position until he can work on his footwork and cut out his tendency to lean instead of engaging with a strong base.
IMO 9 out of 10 times it is not called, specially in the EZ...  
GloryDayz : 12/6/2016 1:36 pm : link
Thats not just a penalty, its points.
It wouldn't have been..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 2:08 pm : link
so egregious if Pitt was called for having a choke hold on Vernon in the end zone later. Either you call both or you don't.
The OBJ calls (and non-calls) were awful. The Flowers call was correct  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2016 2:56 pm : link
no matter what they didn't call on Vernon being held later. Inconsistent but not always wrong.

Unfortunately, we do not have a strong enough Offense to overcome these types of things. In fact, as shown by the interceptions it more often just causes further negative responses by our Offense because Eli starts pressing things.

Just cannot go an entire first half in ANY GAME and target our best player once. This is what is egregious...
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 2:57 pm : link
Quote:
Just cannot go an entire first half in ANY GAME and target our best player once. This is what is egregious..


He was actually targeted on back to back plays that resulted in the safety!
Ok fair enough twice. Maybe that's why Giants stopped  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2016 3:00 pm : link
giving him a chance b/c it only causes penalties.

Actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 3:05 pm : link
from the game log, it looks like Beckham was targeted 4 times at least in the first half, including having a reception.
Game Log - ( New Window )
RE: And while I know it isn't a vendetta..  
Matt M. : 12/6/2016 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13251338 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
look at that sequence. Beckham gets called for OPI the play before, which is the only reason Eli was throwing from the end zone to even allow a chance at the safety. Instead of a first down on the completion to Beckham, it is 2 points for the Steelers and the ball.

When people say calls don't make an impact, that is a prime example of one.

Another would be not calling PI on Beckham getting his arm grabbed in the end zone which would've been 1st and goal - instead, the next play is an INT returned to Giants territory and an eventual TD.
I hate when people say a call doesn't impact the score simply because it wasn't on a scoring play or directly prevented a score. Calls impact the rest of the game.

Likewise, in the NBA I don't like when people say, "You don't call that in the last few minutes." F that. A foul is a foul is a foul regardless of how much time is on the clock or what the score is. If you called it all game, you call it down the stretch and vice versa. Not making a call can have just as big an impact on a game as making a call.
Different than reported earlier. If correct then  
Jimmy Googs : 12/6/2016 3:13 pm : link
it's all good.

Offense looked fine....
RE: It wouldn't have been..  
Matt M. : 12/6/2016 3:17 pm : link
In comment 13251976 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so egregious if Pitt was called for having a choke hold on Vernon in the end zone later. Either you call both or you don't.
Again, another great point. Personally, I thought the call on Flowers was a little cheap, but if I am not a giants fan I probably think the call was acceptable. It wasn't blatant, but it was a hold. I have a bigger problem with the play before that put us in that position.

But, as long as you call that, you have to call the hold on Vernon, which was far worse.
I saw what Mighty saw  
JonC : 12/6/2016 3:31 pm : link
The bigger problem in this game was the officiating wasn't consistent between both teams, with the Giants seemingly getting away with nothing compared to the Steelers.
So let me get this straight,  
Doomster : 12/6/2016 5:34 pm : link
staking the Steelers to a 2-0 lead was really significant, and something this Giant offense could not overcome?
Considering..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 5:40 pm : link
that staking them to a 2-0 lead negated a play that got a first down, then when it was 5-0, a non-PI in the end zone was followed by a INT that the Steelers used to get to 11-0, and then on 4th and 2 at 14-0, the non-call on Tye getting hammered prior to the ball arriving, or the 4th down play where Beckham was held the entire route, and it isn't just a 2 point situation that is the issue.

Basically, the Steelers were handed 9 points directly off bad calls. And it cost the Giants at least 14 points.

But, I'm pretty sure you don't see the point. Math might be too tough.
Steelers had 12 penalties  
Carson53 : 12/7/2016 9:44 am : link
Giants had 4, what is this about the refs favoring the Rooneys I was reading. What a load of crap.
Flowers also got away with another holding call as Jennings
was running into the EZ, at about the 10 yard line.
Did some happen to notice that as well?
At times, this fanbase can be a bit insufferable, just an
observation. People whine about officials all the time on BBI!
RE: Steelers had 12 penalties  
Johnny5 : 12/7/2016 11:21 am : link
In comment 13253039 Carson53 said:
Quote:
Giants had 4, what is this about the refs favoring the Rooneys I was reading. What a load of crap.
Flowers also got away with another holding call as Jennings
was running into the EZ, at about the 10 yard line.
Did some happen to notice that as well?
At times, this fanbase can be a bit insufferable, just an
observation. People whine about officials all the time on BBI!

OK... if you have access watch the right tackle again from the Steelers. He literally MUGGED Vernon all game with no calls. They literally could have called the same thing against the Steelers in their own end zone. They were not calling holding consistently, or PI for that matter, and it made a difference in the game.
RE: RE: Steelers had 12 penalties  
Carson53 : 12/7/2016 11:34 am : link
In comment 13253353 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 13253039 Carson53 said:


Quote:


Giants had 4, what is this about the refs favoring the Rooneys I was reading. What a load of crap.
Flowers also got away with another holding call as Jennings
was running into the EZ, at about the 10 yard line.
Did some happen to notice that as well?
At times, this fanbase can be a bit insufferable, just an
observation. People whine about officials all the time on BBI!


OK... if you have access watch the right tackle again from the Steelers. He literally MUGGED Vernon all game with no calls. They literally could have called the same thing against the Steelers in their own end zone. They were not calling holding consistently, or PI for that matter, and it made a difference in the game.
.

No it didn't, you are showing your age.
RE: RE: RE: Steelers had 12 penalties  
Johnny5 : 12/7/2016 11:39 am : link
In comment 13253392 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13253353 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


In comment 13253039 Carson53 said:


Quote:


Giants had 4, what is this about the refs favoring the Rooneys I was reading. What a load of crap.
Flowers also got away with another holding call as Jennings
was running into the EZ, at about the 10 yard line.
Did some happen to notice that as well?
At times, this fanbase can be a bit insufferable, just an
observation. People whine about officials all the time on BBI!


OK... if you have access watch the right tackle again from the Steelers. He literally MUGGED Vernon all game with no calls. They literally could have called the same thing against the Steelers in their own end zone. They were not calling holding consistently, or PI for that matter, and it made a difference in the game.

.

No it didn't, you are showing your age.

OK, your opinion. So how old am I? lol
Not calling a PI..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/7/2016 11:42 am : link
in the end zone on Beckham or not calling a PI in the end zone on Tye wouldn't impact the game?

Not sure how old one has to be to understand math, but 14 points would be significant.
Back to the Corner