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NFT: Knicks at Miami tonight

Keith : 12/6/2016 12:18 pm
Knicks haven't been a great road team(or good for that matter), but they have been playing better as the season goes on. They need to learn how to win on the road and tonight should be a good test. It's a winnable game and they should be ready to go.

Toronto and Boston lost last night so the Knicks are only .5 games behind Boston and 2.5 behind Toronto. A win tonight and they are tied for 3rd in the conference.

Courtney Lee expected to play.
A repeat  
dep026 : 12/6/2016 12:24 pm : link
performance?
What are you Dragic? - ( New Window )
Heat have been as bad at home as the Knicks have been on the road  
Heisenberg : 12/6/2016 12:25 pm : link
Heat 2-7 at home
Knicks 2-6 on road

Something's gotta give.
We need to start winning some of these games on the road  
Keith : 12/6/2016 12:27 pm : link
and build up confidence. To me, the energy level at home is always there. I have yet to see that same energy level on the road. It's easy to have it when you have a ton of rabid fans behind you, but the great teams and the great players are able to play with that energy on the road.
RE: We need to start winning some of these games on the road  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13251748 Keith said:
Quote:
and build up confidence. To me, the energy level at home is always there. I have yet to see that same energy level on the road. It's easy to have it when you have a ton of rabid fans behind you, but the great teams and the great players are able to play with that energy on the road.


i have seen it in 2 games on the road: chicago and toronto..

they really should win tonight going away, no winslow and waiters is big for them, they might have only 8 or 9 guys healthy tonight
Definitely going to see our boy  
Keith : 12/6/2016 12:39 pm : link
Derrick Williams tonight.
Nothings given with this team on the road  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 12:57 pm : link
but they do have beatable teams to get them going (aside from Cleveland/GS)

@ Miami
vs Cle
@ Sac
@ LA
@ GS
@ Denver
vs Indy
vs Orlando
vs Boston

Would be big if they could rattle off 5-6 wins over the next 9. Just staying above .500 will keep you in the EC playoff race.
Outside Toronto  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 12:59 pm : link
and maybe Chicago (who they play in NY), I don't think they play any team you can say thats outright better them (or even as good ) in the month of January.
That west coast road trip could  
Keith : 12/6/2016 1:00 pm : link
be real tough, but could also be a character builder for us.
i was thinking about this  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 1:06 pm : link
usually in big 3s when they come together 1 guy sacrifices a lot of his stats, bosh in miami and kg in boston...

here the knicks may get 3 20 ppg scorers and really they have not sacrificed much..

i know people want kp to shoot more...

even golden state they are going to get 3 guys with 20 ppg more than likely also
and yes i know  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 1:07 pm : link
knicks are a long way from saying they have a big 3
RE: i was thinking about this  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 1:10 pm : link
In comment 13251817 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
usually in big 3s when they come together 1 guy sacrifices a lot of his stats, bosh in miami and kg in boston...

here the knicks may get 3 20 ppg scorers and really they have not sacrificed much..

i know people want kp to shoot more...

even golden state they are going to get 3 guys with 20 ppg more than likely also


The Kings big 3 had 3 20 PPg scorers with no one sacrificing.
RE: RE: i was thinking about this  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13251828 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13251817 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


usually in big 3s when they come together 1 guy sacrifices a lot of his stats, bosh in miami and kg in boston...

here the knicks may get 3 20 ppg scorers and really they have not sacrificed much..

i know people want kp to shoot more...

even golden state they are going to get 3 guys with 20 ppg more than likely also



The Kings big 3 had 3 20 PPg scorers with no one sacrificing.


looking at how hornacek has been subbing kp, i wonder why spoelstra never did that with bosh?
Miami has a ton of injuries tonight  
Neckbone1333 : 12/6/2016 1:16 pm : link
Winslow, Waiters, among others

No excuses tonight. We need to attack the basket like crazy and try to get Whiteside into early foul trouble.

I expect Rose to have a big game tonight!
Up to 5th on the east  
Carl in CT : 12/6/2016 1:18 pm : link
Not far out of third but also not far from out of the playoffs. Long season which should be fun!
RE: RE: RE: i was thinking about this  
Aspano! : 12/6/2016 1:25 pm : link
In comment 13251831 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13251828 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


In comment 13251817 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


usually in big 3s when they come together 1 guy sacrifices a lot of his stats, bosh in miami and kg in boston...

here the knicks may get 3 20 ppg scorers and really they have not sacrificed much..

i know people want kp to shoot more...

even golden state they are going to get 3 guys with 20 ppg more than likely also



The Kings big 3 had 3 20 PPg scorers with no one sacrificing.



looking at how hornacek has been subbing kp, i wonder why spoelstra never did that with bosh?


I don't think there was ever the necessity to develop Bosh as a primary scorer, which is what KP is learning when he's out there with the second unit.
They need to win tonight because I think they'll get  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/6/2016 1:31 pm : link
their doors blown off tomorrow. I hate back to backs while the other team is sitting around.

The west coast trip isn't THAT bad because the games are every other day.
RE: They need to win tonight because I think they'll get  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13251891 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
their doors blown off tomorrow. I hate back to backs while the other team is sitting around.

The west coast trip isn't THAT bad because the games are every other day.


i dont think they get blown out tomorrow, they may lose but i dont think they get blown out...

knicks have been playing very well at home and that first game they had no idea how to play with each other
RE: Up to 5th on the east  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13251856 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Not far out of third but also not far from out of the playoffs. Long season which should be fun!


If derozan wasn't having an MVP type year I'd say the 2 seed would even be up for grabs. I don't think teams like Indy and Atlanta are as bad as their record but I also don't see teams outside of Cleveland/Toronto that necessarily has better players than NY. Any minor improvements from Noah will go a long way.
Just to rabblerouse a little bit  
Keith : 12/6/2016 1:36 pm : link
where is that dude that hates Rose been?
RE: Just to rabblerouse a little bit  
dep026 : 12/6/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13251905 Keith said:
Quote:
where is that dude that hates Rose been?


Computing advanced stats.
RE: Just to rabblerouse a little bit  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13251905 Keith said:
Quote:
where is that dude that hates Rose been?


dont worry next bad game he will come up with some stat to say how bad he is
Which is probably why he hasn't been around.  
Keith : 12/6/2016 1:43 pm : link
I gotta figure Rose's advanced stats have turned for the better of late.
Knicks are 11-9 and nearly half of their losses are on the 2nd day  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/6/2016 1:46 pm : link
of back to backs. Scheduling losses in the NBA are a fact of life and playing Cleveland after the Cavs have several off days and the Knicks are playing and traveling seems like a golden example of one. Sure hope I'm wrong though. The Cavs aren't playing well now, but I'm certain LeBron will be extra motivated to get a quadruple double tomorrow.
RE: Miami has a ton of injuries tonight  
Deej : 12/6/2016 1:46 pm : link
In comment 13251847 Neckbone1333 said:
Quote:
Winslow, Waiters, among others

No excuses tonight. We need to attack the basket like crazy and try to get Whiteside into early foul trouble.

I expect Rose to have a big game tonight!


That Winslow and Waiters count as significant losses tells you what you need to know about Miami. They're a Whiteside trade (BOS for Amir, Jerebko, and BK's #1?) away from being the frontrunner for the top pick. They're TURBLE
I haven't enjoyed watching knicks games..  
Canton : 12/6/2016 1:48 pm : link
...as much as I am now, since LINSANITY. Last year I enjoyed watched KP.

It's great to finally have a team to enjoy rooting for.
RE: RE: Miami has a ton of injuries tonight  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13251931 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13251847 Neckbone1333 said:


Quote:


Winslow, Waiters, among others

No excuses tonight. We need to attack the basket like crazy and try to get Whiteside into early foul trouble.

I expect Rose to have a big game tonight!



That Winslow and Waiters count as significant losses tells you what you need to know about Miami. They're a Whiteside trade (BOS for Amir, Jerebko, and BK's #1?) away from being the frontrunner for the top pick. They're TURBLE


Might take another BKN pick to get him. Richardsons been out for a bit, is he back? I think he's the best Heat prospect, followed by Johnson then Winslow.
of course  
jamesmichaelworm : 12/6/2016 2:06 pm : link
the cavs get another scheduling break,knicks have to play back to back away and home. really would be huge to get back to back wins. Or at least jump out to a huge lead tonight and rest the guys tonight
Zach Lowe saying  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 2:08 pm : link
Executives think washington will give Porter the max. So Washington will be tied down to their current roster for a while. Yeah, Wall is out of there.
RE: Zach Lowe saying  
Deej : 12/6/2016 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13251978 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Executives think washington will give Porter the max. So Washington will be tied down to their current roster for a while. Yeah, Wall is out of there.


Having decent talent is almost a worse curse than having no talent. The correct play on Porter is to trade him to a team that doesnt care about cap space. E.g. a GSW or CLE.

Wall BTW has two more seasons under contract after this season. So he's going no where without management's consent.
4th game in a row where  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 12/6/2016 2:50 pm : link
Knicks are going to have a difficult challenge at center. Knicks should win this game. But it also could be another trap game like it was in D.C. earlier.
RE: RE: Zach Lowe saying  
giantsfan44ab : 12/6/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13252027 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13251978 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Executives think washington will give Porter the max. So Washington will be tied down to their current roster for a while. Yeah, Wall is out of there.



Having decent talent is almost a worse curse than having no talent. The correct play on Porter is to trade him to a team that doesnt care about cap space. E.g. a GSW or CLE.

Wall BTW has two more seasons under contract after this season. So he's going no where without management's consent.


Should've clarified, he's not going to stay in Washington longer than his current contract.
This game is a character test  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2016 7:04 pm : link
The cavaliers game is a Loss built in to the schedule.

. Win tonight.
heat only have 9 healthy players  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 7:30 pm : link
jr smith out tomorrow night against knicks..

whats going on with bosh and heat? i know he wants to play and says he can play, are they going to release him? or they going to screw him and release him after the playoff cutoff date
Is it just me or did whiteside  
Keith : 12/6/2016 7:45 pm : link
just double dribble?
Energy level not there.  
Keith : 12/6/2016 7:50 pm : link
I'd bring Jennings in for lee.
Melo Ball tonight  
B in ALB : 12/6/2016 7:51 pm : link
Flat jump shots and dogging it on transition D.
Melo can't hit the broad side of a barn early  
mfsd : 12/6/2016 7:51 pm : link
But doggedly determined to shoot his way out of it
Worst part about it when melo is off,  
Keith : 12/6/2016 7:52 pm : link
There's nobody under the rim. When he misses, there's no chance of an offensive rebound.
O'Quinn busting his ass all over the court again  
mfsd : 12/6/2016 8:02 pm : link
Love this guy
I'm usually a melo supporter  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2016 8:04 pm : link
But I'd be fine if he spent the night on the bench. He's playing like he was out on the town until 5am. Absentminded defense and bad passes.
Yeah Melo was killing us on both ends of the floor early  
mfsd : 12/6/2016 8:08 pm : link
Hope Horny gives him a nice long rest here
So Reed can crash into KP  
B in ALB : 12/6/2016 8:14 pm : link
while rebounding and the foul ends up on KP. Huh. Ok.
Travel?  
Keith : 12/6/2016 8:17 pm : link
Is this guy seeing things?
Getting torched by Wayne fucking Ellington....outstanding  
Greg from LI : 12/6/2016 8:18 pm : link
.
RE: Travel?  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13252517 Keith said:
Quote:
Is this guy seeing things?


remember same official who was gambiling with donaghe but for some reason is still allowed to official..

how is it traveling if you are dribbling?
Whiteside is a fucking punk  
B in ALB : 12/6/2016 8:20 pm : link
Get KOQ n there to give him the business.

Another bullshit call on KP.
I don't watch a lot of NYK b'ball  
ColHowPepper : 12/6/2016 8:22 pm : link
and this confirms why, ugly. Carmelo doesn't turn down a lot
of shots even if poor %, generally, lots of chucking it up, vs.
a schlocky Heat team. Hard to watch
And I thought the shitty officiating in Miami  
bceagle05 : 12/6/2016 8:24 pm : link
was only for the benefit of Dwyane Wade.
RE: RE: Travel?  
Keith : 12/6/2016 8:25 pm : link
In comment 13252519 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13252517 Keith said:


Quote:


Is this guy seeing things?



remember same official who was gambiling with donaghe but for some reason is still allowed to official..

how is it traveling if you are dribbling?


Pretty sure they allowed Whiteside a blatant double dribble early on too.
Another big night  
bceagle05 : 12/6/2016 8:25 pm : link
for Lee and Noah thus far.
Carmelo reverting back to form  
ghost718 : 12/6/2016 8:28 pm : link
That didn't take long
RE: I don't watch a lot of NYK b'ball  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:28 pm : link
In comment 13252527 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and this confirms why, ugly. Carmelo doesn't turn down a lot
of shots even if poor %, generally, lots of chucking it up, vs.
a schlocky Heat team. Hard to watch


you havnt watched many games and based on 1 quarter it confirma why?

funny because knicks have plYed very well recently, you are missing out
RE: Carmelo reverting back to form  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13252540 ghost718 said:
Quote:
That didn't take long


they are guarding him with a 6 foot 2 inch player, you have to give him the ball...
Plus he's getting to the line.  
Keith : 12/6/2016 8:30 pm : link
He was taking bad shots earlier, but now he should be getting the ball. He may have passed out of the double team, but got fouled so threw it up
What's funny is that  
Sgrcts : 12/6/2016 8:31 pm : link
When I don't post because you three morons complain incessantly no matter what I say, you guys still can't keep me out of your brain.

No, Rose is still pretty shitty on most advanced stats. In fact, ESPN just came out with an article wondering if Rose was the right PG for this team. Surprisingly, seems the answer is no. I didn't post it because you fanboys would take it too personally but fuck it here you go.
Is Rose the right PG for the Knicks? - ( New Window )
Was talking about forcing it up on against a double team  
ghost718 : 12/6/2016 8:32 pm : link
and the rest of the game
Noah on a roll all of a sudden!  
bceagle05 : 12/6/2016 8:32 pm : link
Whiteside still killing us.
whiteside travels every single time  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:32 pm : link
..
How about Noah showing a little hustle  
mfsd : 12/6/2016 8:33 pm : link
And hitting the boards! Keep it up, please?
He forced it because he felt the contact  
Keith : 12/6/2016 8:33 pm : link
and got to the line.
i was waiting for melo to miss that 3  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:37 pm : link
and everyone here explode
RE: What's funny is that  
BigBlueShock : 12/6/2016 8:38 pm : link
In comment 13252551 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
When I don't post because you three morons complain incessantly no matter what I say, you guys still can't keep me out of your brain.

No, Rose is still pretty shitty on most advanced stats. In fact, ESPN just came out with an article wondering if Rose was the right PG for this team. Surprisingly, seems the answer is no. I didn't post it because you fanboys would take it too personally but fuck it here you go. Is Rose the right PG for the Knicks? - ( New Window )

You just posted an ESPN article to support your argument? For shame.
Who still pays to be an ESPN Insider  
Keith : 12/6/2016 8:39 pm : link
These days?
Well I thought he should have passed it  
ghost718 : 12/6/2016 8:39 pm : link
But right now he's hitting them

I'm sure there will be more down the line we can debate
ESPN.com  
Sgrcts : 12/6/2016 8:40 pm : link
Basketball team is the best in the biz. Zach Lowe and Kevin Peyton are the two best basketball writers in the biz.
RE: Well I thought he should have passed it  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13252565 ghost718 said:
Quote:
But right now he's hitting them

I'm sure there will be more down the line we can debate


it doesnt matter if you think it is a bad shot, he has a mismatch you got to go to him and force the heat to double, once they double you find the open man, if they dont you take the shot
No shit pal  
ghost718 : 12/6/2016 8:44 pm : link
.
RE: No shit pal  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:46 pm : link
In comment 13252575 ghost718 said:
Quote:
.


so what the hell are you ripping him for?

the same shots he missed in the first, he started making in the second, so what is the difference?
Is Rose the right point guard for NY  
xman : 12/6/2016 8:50 pm : link
look he is miles better then the crap we have had to endure for 10 plus years so that alone answers the question. You want Felton back? Put the question into context
RE: RE: I don't watch a lot of NYK b'ball  
ColHowPepper : 12/6/2016 8:55 pm : link
In comment 13252542 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13252527 ColHowPepper said:
Quote: and this confirms why, ugly. Carmelo doesn't turn down a lotof shots even if poor %, generally, lots of chucking it up, vs.
a schlocky Heat team. Hard to watch

you havnt watched many games and baed on 1 quarter it confirma why?
funny because knicks have plYed very well recently, you are missing out
nyg, I've been tracking them, but this has not been pretty, but, yes, one Q, maybe too quick to judge, but not pretty on either side.
RE: RE: RE: I don't watch a lot of NYK b'ball  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13252588 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 13252542 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13252527 ColHowPepper said:
Quote: and this confirms why, ugly. Carmelo doesn't turn down a lotof shots even if poor %, generally, lots of chucking it up, vs.
a schlocky Heat team. Hard to watch

you havnt watched many games and baed on 1 quarter it confirma why?
funny because knicks have plYed very well recently, you are missing out

nyg, I've been tracking them, but this has not been pretty, but, yes, one Q, maybe too quick to judge, but not pretty on either side.


they have been forcing it to melo this game but lately they havnt
Melo balling now.  
Keith : 12/6/2016 9:07 pm : link
Dumb foul by KP
lol  
dep026 : 12/6/2016 9:17 pm : link
Just came here for the laugh.

Knicks right there for the win.
whiteside just shoved holiday to the ground no call  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 9:18 pm : link
guess we know who the officials bet on
Melo is mental tonight but is still prone  
PhiPsi125 : 12/6/2016 9:18 pm : link
to the really stupid plays because he thinks he's superman. Can't help himself. But he's been playing better. Nice to see him pass out of double teams.

Whiteside looks like a real douche.
Yeah that last one was a bit ridiculous, but I guess  
Keith : 12/6/2016 9:19 pm : link
he gets that one because he's carried us this quarter.
Well that was a fun quarter!  
guitarguybs12 : 12/6/2016 9:19 pm : link
Keep the pace up and finish it out!
Love  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:20 pm : link
me some Jennings. Wall 48 tonight
Back  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:21 pm : link
spasms for Rose, will not return
Knicks playing with an attitude.  
Keith : 12/6/2016 9:21 pm : link
Like they know they can't and shouldn't lose this game.
Melo  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:21 pm : link
on fire!
RE: I don't watch a lot of NYK b'ball  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13252527 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and this confirms why, ugly. Carmelo doesn't turn down a lot
of shots even if poor %, generally, lots of chucking it up, vs.
a schlocky Heat team. Hard to watch


Awfully quiet now. You must be enjoying the game
RE: Back  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:23 pm : link
In comment 13252615 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
spasms for Rose, will not return


Fuck
KP is redonkulous  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:24 pm : link
.
You can't defend that  
ZGiants98 : 12/6/2016 9:24 pm : link
lol.
How can you stop a 7'3" dude with range  
Keith : 12/6/2016 9:24 pm : link
when he can drive to the rim like that?
RE: Back  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 9:25 pm : link
In comment 13252615 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
spasms for Rose, will not return


rest up for tomorrow, get a shot tonight sleep on the plane and hopefully tomorrow it feels better..

of all the injuries we worry about for rose, i will take back spasms
keep this lead  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 9:27 pm : link
melo rest the rest of the way
I've  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:29 pm : link
been critical of Thomas, but very nice game
BJ  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:30 pm : link
to KP!
Jennings  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:31 pm : link
is becoming my second favorite Knick...
RE: I've  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 9:31 pm : link
In comment 13252634 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
been critical of Thomas, but very nice game


me to but he has played well
Thomas taking his game back to last year  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:36 pm : link
Jennings with the quick 3!
KOQ  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:36 pm : link
and Jennings remind me of old school Knicks.
How can you not love KOQ?  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:37 pm : link
Beastly
KOQ  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:40 pm : link
wooo
That. Was.  
ZGiants98 : 12/6/2016 9:40 pm : link
Nice.
O'Quinn is such a good fucking passer.  
guitarguybs12 : 12/6/2016 9:41 pm : link
God I wish he could be our main Center over Noah.
Nice road win  
Giantology : 12/6/2016 9:44 pm : link
Good defense leads to good offense
Ugly  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:45 pm : link
start but nice win!
Nice to see us beating teams we should be, and on the road.  
yatqb : 12/6/2016 9:46 pm : link
A much improved team.
FOUR IN A ROW!  
guitarguybs12 : 12/6/2016 9:46 pm : link
Great game! Hope Rose is ok...
Tied for 3rd in the East  
Keith : 12/6/2016 9:46 pm : link
2 games behind Toronto, 3 behind Cleveland. F this guaranteed loss crap, let's send a message tomorrow!
slow start and not pretty - but a road win is a road win!  
Del Shofner : 12/6/2016 9:47 pm : link
Melo eventually got hot after a cold start.

Have to see about Rose and his back spasms, though ...
9-3 in the last 12 games! HOTTEST TEAM IN THE EAST BOOOOOOM  
guitarguybs12 : 12/6/2016 9:50 pm : link
It's all starting to come together...
Jennings  
Earl the goat : 12/6/2016 9:50 pm : link
Going for that 4 year 70 million contract
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 12/6/2016 9:51 pm : link
fully Jennings fanboy. His shot isn't great but smart passes, tough, really digging him.
Also shout out to Ron Baker for his 38 seconds of playtime tonight!  
guitarguybs12 : 12/6/2016 9:53 pm : link
.
I dozed off at the half  
aimrocky : 12/6/2016 9:54 pm : link
And woke up to a 14 point lead. Very nice...
Carmelo +25 -  
Del Shofner : 12/6/2016 10:00 pm : link
not bad. He passed Bill Cartwright for #10 all time Knick scorer, Bill Bradley up next.
box score - ( New Window )
RE: Tied for 3rd in the East  
nygiants16 : 12/6/2016 10:08 pm : link
In comment 13252674 Keith said:
Quote:
2 games behind Toronto, 3 behind Cleveland. F this guaranteed loss crap, let's send a message tomorrow!


one thing about this team, they are not going to back down, it is not always pretty but this is definitely a gritty team
It's early, but Jennings seems to me to be a must re-sign.  
yatqb : 12/6/2016 10:11 pm : link
Excellent PG.
Somebody needs to tell KP to stop settling for 3's so much.  
Jim in Hoboken : 12/6/2016 10:43 pm : link
He's too content hovering around the line and jacking up 3's.
following up on Melo passing Cartwright -  
Del Shofner : 12/6/2016 10:55 pm : link
here are the Knicks all-time scoring leaders from basketball-reference.com, obviously not updated for Melo passing Cartwright tonight. Seems to me that, barring injury, Melo will pass everyone whose total has a 9 handle this year.

1. Patrick Ewing* 23665
2. Walt Frazier* 14617
3. Willis Reed* 12183
4. Allan Houston 11165
5. Carl Braun 10449
6. Richie Guerin* 10392
7. Earl Monroe* 9679
8. Dick Barnett 9442
9. Bill Bradley* 9217
10. Bill Cartwright 9006
RE: Somebody needs to tell KP to stop settling for 3's so much.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2016 12:27 am : link
In comment 13252717 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
He's too content hovering around the line and jacking up 3's.


He's shooting 40% from three.

That shot is well within his game, wouldn't call it settling.
RE: I'm  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 2:11 am : link
In comment 13252680 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
fully Jennings fanboy. His shot isn't great but smart passes, tough, really digging him.


Knew he would turn people around once he came to NY. Liked him in Milwaukee, loved him in Detroit.

Reminds me of another player the Knicks could've gotten that I think people here would've came around on... (haha Keith, just messing, I will not mention his name...this time).
Funny how after I was griping about Melo early in the game  
mfsd : 12/7/2016 8:00 am : link
I think that turned out to be his best offensive game...not just bc he got hot and dropped 35 pts, but he was mostly catching and attacking the basket shooting quickly within the flow of the offense, rather than holding the ball for 10 seconds before jacking up an insane fall away
i would not be surprised if rose played tonight  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 8:24 am : link
but if he is still sore no reason to rush him to play...

he said last night it started in his right leg, he was sore and was fine until it radiated to his back...

said it calmed down and he felt better and if it is just his leg he is fine but if he is still sore tomorrow i woulf sit him..

he is not going to play half speed, so that could lead to something worse
Jennings is just a great example of guys  
Deej : 12/7/2016 8:29 am : link
being very valuable in appropriate roles. Jennings as the backup PG and what you see is his tough D, energy, passing, desire etc. Jennings as the starter and you start questioning whether you can win with a guard who cant shoot. Jennings as your 2nd best player and all you see if the flaws.

The problem is you cant pay a Jennings the Noah contract. You have to recognize that there are 200 guys in the NBA who can fill bench roles really effectively (many of them are starting, however). Dont pay them like starters. Just get new ones. I'd resign Jennings. I'd probably pay him 10 million. But not 18.
RE: Jennings is just a great example of guys  
Heisenberg : 12/7/2016 8:34 am : link
In comment 13252874 Deej said:
Quote:
being very valuable in appropriate roles. Jennings as the backup PG and what you see is his tough D, energy, passing, desire etc. Jennings as the starter and you start questioning whether you can win with a guard who cant shoot. Jennings as your 2nd best player and all you see if the flaws.

The problem is you cant pay a Jennings the Noah contract. You have to recognize that there are 200 guys in the NBA who can fill bench roles really effectively (many of them are starting, however). Dont pay them like starters. Just get new ones. I'd resign Jennings. I'd probably pay him 10 million. But not 18.


10 million will not get Jennings. Not even close. I get what you're saying that he's a better backup than starter but someone will definitely pay him more than 10 million.
If we want to keep Jennings  
Giantology : 12/7/2016 8:37 am : link
We will need to pay him more than $10 mil per season. And we need to keep him.
there's going to be  
Enzo : 12/7/2016 8:43 am : link
a lot of free agent point guards this summer - and less cap room than last summer. I wonder what the market will look like for the guys that end up switching teams.
RE: What's funny is that  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 8:50 am : link
In comment 13252551 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
When I don't post because you three morons complain incessantly no matter what I say, you guys still can't keep me out of your brain.

No, Rose is still pretty shitty on most advanced stats. In fact, ESPN just came out with an article wondering if Rose was the right PG for this team. Surprisingly, seems the answer is no. I didn't post it because you fanboys would take it too personally but fuck it here you go. Is Rose the right PG for the Knicks? - ( New Window )


people would not rip you if you had a shred of basketball knowledge and actually watched a game and analysed it and broke it down with your own thoughts..

stop using other peoples work to make your point, grow a set and actually make a point without stats based on your two eyes..

take last night for example his stats in the first half were nothing awesome, according to stats it was an average game but he made a ton of positive plays...

his attacking adds a dimension that this team has not had in a long time, when he attacks, even if he does not finish he is making a positive play..

last night he drovr and knew whiteside liked to try and block everything so he threw it up knowing the center would have a clear shot at a rebound. that is a positive play that does not show up..

whem he kicks it out and the guy misses a shot, it does not show up on the stat sheet, so accorsing to you it doesnt do anything but it is still a positive play and he made the right play..

stats do not tell the whole story and you cant comprehend that, you know when people will have respect for you? go back and watch a game, any gamr i dont care and actually watch it and you tell me how many bad plays and how many good plays he had
guys like deej and even enzo  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 8:53 am : link
hated the move, but they mlactually make a point of why they did not like it and what they want going forward..

i respect those two opinions hell of a lot more than yours and they did not like the rose trade...

so its not about you not liking rose..
RE: RE: What's funny is that  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 9:06 am : link
In comment 13252912 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13252551 Sgrcts said:


Quote:


When I don't post because you three morons complain incessantly no matter what I say, you guys still can't keep me out of your brain.

No, Rose is still pretty shitty on most advanced stats. In fact, ESPN just came out with an article wondering if Rose was the right PG for this team. Surprisingly, seems the answer is no. I didn't post it because you fanboys would take it too personally but fuck it here you go. Is Rose the right PG for the Knicks? - ( New Window )



people would not rip you if you had a shred of basketball knowledge and actually watched a game and analysed it and broke it down with your own thoughts..

stop using other peoples work to make your point, grow a set and actually make a point without stats based on your two eyes..

take last night for example his stats in the first half were nothing awesome, according to stats it was an average game but he made a ton of positive plays...

his attacking adds a dimension that this team has not had in a long time, when he attacks, even if he does not finish he is making a positive play..

last night he drovr and knew whiteside liked to try and block everything so he threw it up knowing the center would have a clear shot at a rebound. that is a positive play that does not show up..

whem he kicks it out and the guy misses a shot, it does not show up on the stat sheet, so accorsing to you it doesnt do anything but it is still a positive play and he made the right play..

stats do not tell the whole story and you cant comprehend that, you know when people will have respect for you? go back and watch a game, any gamr i dont care and actually watch it and you tell me how many bad plays and how many good plays he had


The best part of his advanced stats is that both offensive and defensive ratings are measured that all the players teammates are equally as good per minute at forcing negative plays by the offense. And offensive rating is based on role. The bigger your role in the offense is the lower your number it tends to be.

I guess its much more fun reading numbers than watching games.
This season would be so much better  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2016 9:17 am : link
If the Knicks didn't sign Noah and started O'Quinn in the middle. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight the Knicks should have signed a backup center who can play 15-20 minutes a night to rotate with O'Quinn who is one of my favorite players on the team. Jennings was a fantastic signing as well.
RE: This season would be so much better  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 9:22 am : link
In comment 13252973 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
If the Knicks didn't sign Noah and started O'Quinn in the middle. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight the Knicks should have signed a backup center who can play 15-20 minutes a night to rotate with O'Quinn who is one of my favorite players on the team. Jennings was a fantastic signing as well.


if noah can give you 20 to 25 minutes a night like last night i would be very happy...

then you have a very good center rotation, remember on that mavs team chandler only played 20 to 25 minutes a night...

it will keep noah healthy and fresh and then Pl ayoffs roll around is not run into the ground
there was no indication that OQuinn would be playing this well.  
Heisenberg : 12/7/2016 9:40 am : link
he was not this good last season. It would have been an incredible leap of faith to entrust the starting center gig to him
Jennings  
Deej : 12/7/2016 9:49 am : link
Quote:
RE: Jennings is just a great example of guys
Heisenberg : 8:34 am : link : reply

10 million will not get Jennings. Not even close. I get what you're saying that he's a better backup than starter but someone will definitely pay him more than 10 million.

Maybe. We're paying him $5 million this year and he had no other bidders. Statistically, he's not any better this year than he has been in the past. He's a top tier backup PG.

Quote:
If we want to keep Jennings
Giantology : 8:37 am : link : reply
We will need to pay him more than $10 mil per season. And we need to keep him.


Why do we "need" to keep him? Next year we might sign another reclamation PG to a similar cheap deal. And in any event we're so far from being a contender that short term "needs" should not drive personnel decisions.

IMO, giving Jennings the Noah contract is a mistake. And I say that as someone who really likes him in his current role.
RE: RE: This season would be so much better  
Deej : 12/7/2016 9:53 am : link
In comment 13252983 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13252973 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If the Knicks didn't sign Noah and started O'Quinn in the middle. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight the Knicks should have signed a backup center who can play 15-20 minutes a night to rotate with O'Quinn who is one of my favorite players on the team. Jennings was a fantastic signing as well.



if noah can give you 20 to 25 minutes a night like last night i would be very happy...

then you have a very good center rotation, remember on that mavs team chandler only played 20 to 25 minutes a night...

it will keep noah healthy and fresh and then Pl ayoffs roll around is not run into the ground


What are the chances you give of Noah performing like last night over the next 3 and 2/3 seasons? And what is that level of play? 5/6 shooting and like a 25 rebound per 36 minute pace? Obviously he cant keep up with that.

Also, not for nothing, Noah played less than 15 minutes last night because he got 4 fouls.
It's  
DanMetroMan : 12/7/2016 9:56 am : link
pretty clear KOQ has won over Hornacek, his role will only increase further if he continues this level of play.
RE: It's  
Deej : 12/7/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13253078 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
pretty clear KOQ has won over Hornacek, his role will only increase further if he continues this level of play.


I hope you're right. It takes a little time with KP. He 's got a 1990s NBA body. He fouls at lot and turns the ball over too much. So you can see why coaches bench him. But when he plays he's just good. The intangibles: Hustles, brings toughness. But also the tangible. Guy fills the hell out of a stat sheet.
I  
DanMetroMan : 12/7/2016 10:04 am : link
mean last 5 games he's averaging over 21 minutes per game, 8 and 8 with 1 block on 57%. He's not some stud future superstar but I think we seem to forget he was a small school guy, 2nd rounder and is still only 26. Being rough around the edges shouldn't be some massive shock. He is pretty clearly a legit NBA part of a rotation and as of right now is arguably Phil's best FA signing all things considered.
If Rose needs to sit out a few, think we bring up Randle?  
Heisenberg : 12/7/2016 10:05 am : link
I'd much rather that than deal with the Sasha Vujacic experience.
RE: RE: RE: This season would be so much better  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 10:12 am : link
In comment 13253069 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13252983 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13252973 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If the Knicks didn't sign Noah and started O'Quinn in the middle. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight the Knicks should have signed a backup center who can play 15-20 minutes a night to rotate with O'Quinn who is one of my favorite players on the team. Jennings was a fantastic signing as well.



if noah can give you 20 to 25 minutes a night like last night i would be very happy...

then you have a very good center rotation, remember on that mavs team chandler only played 20 to 25 minutes a night...

it will keep noah healthy and fresh and then Pl ayoffs roll around is not run into the ground



What are the chances you give of Noah performing like last night over the next 3 and 2/3 seasons? And what is that level of play? 5/6 shooting and like a 25 rebound per 36 minute pace? Obviously he cant keep up with that.

Also, not for nothing, Noah played less than 15 minutes last night because he got 4 fouls.


i would be happy with 4 10 and 3 and playing with high energy in 20 to 25 minutes

lets be honest scoring wise anything the knicks get is gravy
RE: I  
Deej : 12/7/2016 10:12 am : link
In comment 13253106 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
mean last 5 games he's averaging over 21 minutes per game, 8 and 8 with 1 block on 57%. He's not some stud future superstar but I think we seem to forget he was a small school guy, 2nd rounder and is still only 26. Being rough around the edges shouldn't be some massive shock. He is pretty clearly a legit NBA part of a rotation and as of right now is arguably Phil's best FA signing all things considered.


I just think it's been clear since last season that he's a rotation player. His per 36 #s last year were 14.6 points, 11.8 rebounds, 3.4 assists. 2.3 blocks, .9 steals with good enough shooting and he hits FTs. Indeed, his points, rebounds, steals, and assists rates are DOWN this year. I find it baffling that he only got 764 minutes last year. Criminal even.

That said, the upticks in his blocks and shooting (and I think better defense) make him better this year. His PER, WS48, and BPM are all better.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This season would be so much better  
Deej : 12/7/2016 10:17 am : link
In comment 13253133 nygiants16 said:
Quote:


i would be happy with 4 10 and 3 and playing with high energy in 20 to 25 minutes

lets be honest scoring wise anything the knicks get is gravy


What you'd want from Noah doesnt answer the question of whether it is reasonable to expect it. Also, he's a career 11.5 rebounds/36 mins player. There is no reason to believe that 10 in 20-25 minutes is in the offing on the downside of his career.
RE: RE: I  
DanMetroMan : 12/7/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13253137 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13253106 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


mean last 5 games he's averaging over 21 minutes per game, 8 and 8 with 1 block on 57%. He's not some stud future superstar but I think we seem to forget he was a small school guy, 2nd rounder and is still only 26. Being rough around the edges shouldn't be some massive shock. He is pretty clearly a legit NBA part of a rotation and as of right now is arguably Phil's best FA signing all things considered.



I just think it's been clear since last season that he's a rotation player. His per 36 #s last year were 14.6 points, 11.8 rebounds, 3.4 assists. 2.3 blocks, .9 steals with good enough shooting and he hits FTs. Indeed, his points, rebounds, steals, and assists rates are DOWN this year. I find it baffling that he only got 764 minutes last year. Criminal even.

That said, the upticks in his blocks and shooting (and I think better defense) make him better this year. His PER, WS48, and BPM are all better.


Well not calling out anyone in particular but while there was a vocal group of people who felt he could be good (in better shape etc) there were a decent number of people open to dealing him for a 2nd rounder around draft time. He's solid, multi-skilled and compliments KP rather well. I could look stupid saying this but... I think KOQ outplays Noah over the next 3 seasons.
Whether he does or doesnt  
Deej : 12/7/2016 10:30 am : link
one has a good contract and one has a very risky contract.
The east continues to beat the hell  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 10:52 am : link
out of each other. Chicago is on a 3 game losing streak and Atlanta is on a 7 game losing streak. The Knicks are the only team in the east with a winning streak greater than 1. Set up fairly well, even if you mark tonight off as a loss.
Dwight  
Keith : 12/7/2016 10:59 am : link
Howard.
KOQ is playing so much better.  
Keith : 12/7/2016 10:59 am : link
So much stronger on the boards and on defense. If there is a loose ball, he's attacking it. He's even playing strong around the basket. Very happy with his progression.
BTW  
Deej : 12/7/2016 11:20 am : link
was talking to a bulls fan friend who was raving about Rolo after a rocky start (like last season).
RE: BTW  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 11:23 am : link
In comment 13253347 Deej said:
Quote:
was talking to a bulls fan friend who was raving about Rolo after a rocky start (like last season).


He's been better, but lets face it - he couldnt be much worse than the start he had. Not a fan of his. Hopefully, someone contender wants him and the Bulls can trade him.
RE: RE: BTW  
Deej : 12/7/2016 11:28 am : link
In comment 13253357 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13253347 Deej said:


Quote:


was talking to a bulls fan friend who was raving about Rolo after a rocky start (like last season).



He's been better, but lets face it - he couldnt be much worse than the start he had. Not a fan of his. Hopefully, someone contender wants him and the Bulls can trade him.


Bull's SB blog described his play in a recent game as "sensational per usual"
Link - ( New Window )
Robin Lopez will never be sensational.  
Keith : 12/7/2016 11:35 am : link
I think they were referring to his rebounding. He's about as average as you can be.
RE: Robin Lopez will never be sensational.  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 11:45 am : link
In comment 13253397 Keith said:
Quote:
I think they were referring to his rebounding. He's about as average as you can be.


The best quality about him is his consistency. He doesn't have any flaws really. He's a average rebounder (good at boxing out though), good rim protector and not an incapable scorer. He's a capable passer too. But he'll never really have any of those game breaking games that even a guy like KOQ is capable of.
I don't disagree.  
Keith : 12/7/2016 11:53 am : link
The one thing that I will say is that his mobility is weak. Doesn't have good lateral quickness and can't really run the floor well because he's not very athletic. Solid player who won't lose you games, but won't win you games. My definition of average.
Bottom line  
Carl in CT : 12/7/2016 1:14 pm : link
We are better than last year, Rose or no Rose. If we don't want to sign him he is gone. We can play with anyone with the exception of 2 teams. This year will be fun.
And PS  
Carl in CT : 12/7/2016 1:15 pm : link
Forget stats anyone can make an argument finding an obscure one. Use your eyes, they won't fail you.
And PPS  
Carl in CT : 12/7/2016 1:16 pm : link
Ray Felton is still Fat!!! (Grin).
RE: RE: RE: What's funny is that  
Sgrcts : 12/7/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13252945 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13252912 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 13252551 Sgrcts said:


Quote:


When I don't post because you three morons complain incessantly no matter what I say, you guys still can't keep me out of your brain.

No, Rose is still pretty shitty on most advanced stats. In fact, ESPN just came out with an article wondering if Rose was the right PG for this team. Surprisingly, seems the answer is no. I didn't post it because you fanboys would take it too personally but fuck it here you go. Is Rose the right PG for the Knicks? - ( New Window )



people would not rip you if you had a shred of basketball knowledge and actually watched a game and analysed it and broke it down with your own thoughts..

stop using other peoples work to make your point, grow a set and actually make a point without stats based on your two eyes..

take last night for example his stats in the first half were nothing awesome, according to stats it was an average game but he made a ton of positive plays...

his attacking adds a dimension that this team has not had in a long time, when he attacks, even if he does not finish he is making a positive play..

last night he drovr and knew whiteside liked to try and block everything so he threw it up knowing the center would have a clear shot at a rebound. that is a positive play that does not show up..

whem he kicks it out and the guy misses a shot, it does not show up on the stat sheet, so accorsing to you it doesnt do anything but it is still a positive play and he made the right play..

stats do not tell the whole story and you cant comprehend that, you know when people will have respect for you? go back and watch a game, any gamr i dont care and actually watch it and you tell me how many bad plays and how many good plays he had



The best part of his advanced stats is that both offensive and defensive ratings are measured that all the players teammates are equally as good per minute at forcing negative plays by the offense. And offensive rating is based on role. The bigger your role in the offense is the lower your number it tends to be.

I guess its much more fun reading numbers than watching games.


Can you guys both stop talking to me? You complain when I discuss Rose but when I don't, you can't stop talking about me. And quit with the I don't watch games bullshit. I'm a partial season ticket holder and watch basically every Knicks game, have league pass,etc.

Simply because you don't understand who's advanced stats work doesn't mean they're wrong. Dep, offensive rating is absolutely not base on role. That's the dumbest shit I've ever read. Tell me more about how the bigger your role is the lower your number tends to be. That is not borne out by looking at almost any great players orating. In fact on this team, KP has a 115 Orating, Carmelo has a 110 and Rose has a 105. KP has a net +6, CRmelo 0 and Rose -8, yet Rose and KP have similar usage ratings and Carmelo has the highest. It's cool you don't like them and don't understand them, but stop trying to argue them like you do.


Anyway- let's stop railroading these threads. Stop addressing me about Rose and I'll do the same so we can just discuss Knicks overall. Deal?
Offensive rating isnt based on role....  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 1:59 pm : link
Interesting.

Quote:
In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.


I guess Dean Oliver's explanation, the man who came up with the rating and explanation, doesnt understand how advanced stats work either....haha
Dean Oliver's explanation - ( New Window )
RE: Offensive rating isnt based on role....  
Sgrcts : 12/7/2016 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13253671 dep026 said:
Quote:
Interesting.



Quote:


In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.



I guess Dean Oliver's explanation, the man who came up with the rating and explanation, doesnt understand how advanced stats work either....haha Dean Oliver's explanation - ( New Window )


I'm not sure you understand what it is you're reading, because it literally does nothing to advance your point.

The higher the usage, the harder it is to keep a good orating. Therefore, if your usage is high and you don't have one..............what does that tell you about the player? Again, comparing two players on the same team with similar usage rates. KP vs Rose. Think about it, you can figure this out.
RE: Offensive rating isnt based on role....  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13253671 dep026 said:
Quote:
Interesting.



Quote:


In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.



I guess Dean Oliver's explanation, the man who came up with the rating and explanation, doesnt understand how advanced stats work either....haha Dean Oliver's explanation - ( New Window )


This is my biggest issue with offensive/defensive rating. It's very skewed towards low usage big men (at least offensive rating). Guys like Tyson chandler, robin Lopez and even Cody Zeller have continuously put up some of the leagues highest offensive ratings, hovering around 120. That does not af all indicate you should look to roll out a lineup with Cody, Chandler and Lopez. Robin Lopez posts higher offensive ratings than Brook Lopez. Say what you want but that means you have to look at other factors/metrics in addition.

On the flip side, Carmelo and Kobe have had plenty of season, even in their prime, where they barely had an offensive rating above their defensive rating. That's mostly due to their insane usage %.

It's a metric that's ideally used to gauge how efficient a player is the more he uses the ball.

If you use it in that light it shows how insane guys like harden and Westbrook are playing this year. Westbrook is about to shatter historic usage % and is still putting up a 110 o rating.
RE: RE: Offensive rating isnt based on role....  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13253687 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13253671 dep026 said:


Quote:


Interesting.



Quote:


In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.



I guess Dean Oliver's explanation, the man who came up with the rating and explanation, doesnt understand how advanced stats work either....haha Dean Oliver's explanation - ( New Window )



I'm not sure you understand what it is you're reading, because it literally does nothing to advance your point.

The higher the usage, the harder it is to keep a good orating. Therefore, if your usage is high and you don't have one..............what does that tell you about the player? Again, comparing two players on the same team with similar usage rates. KP vs Rose. Think about it, you can figure this out.


If your asking me who is better between KP and Rose based on their usage ratings.... of course its KP. I dont think anyone is disagreeing.

I'll try to be civil here. There are parts of the game, which include Rose's, that arent measured by advanced stats. Look at last night, before getting hurt - he was getting to the basket quite easily, but missed shots because Whiteside helpside was looming. However by missing the shot it gave offensive rebounding opportunities. 8 missed shots by Rose last night, 6 of them were rebounded for scores by the Knicks. So his ability to get into the lane and get shots up, gave oppotunities for the knicks to score.

No one ever said Rose will be an all star. No one ever said Rose will lead to you a title. But he has made the Knicks a better team. His play has improved over the year. So while he may not be lighting it up in the advance stat world - he has made the knicks a better team and not at the expense of Porz, which was your main reason for watching this year.

Porz is going to get a lot of opportunities because of rose's ability to drive.
I'm curious if advanced stats  
Keith : 12/7/2016 2:23 pm : link
factor in certain things. I think all advanced stats are a piece to a puzzle, certainly not the answer that a few think they are. That being said, last night for example....Carmelo takes some bad shots and misses. Easily rebounded by the opposition because nobody was under the basket. Rose drives to the hoop, takes on the bigs, misses, but because the bigs come out to defend Rose, it leaves Noah wide open for a tip in or KP for a dunk. Do advanced stats look at those plays the same?
I really can't understand how anyone who knows the game  
Keith : 12/7/2016 2:25 pm : link
can watch and think Rose isn't making us better. How can you watch and think that Rose is a negative. When we really need someone to step up and score a big bucket because momentum is turning, it's usually Rose. It's about when he does his damage too.
RE: I'm curious if advanced stats  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13253706 Keith said:
Quote:
factor in certain things. I think all advanced stats are a piece to a puzzle, certainly not the answer that a few think they are. That being said, last night for example....Carmelo takes some bad shots and misses. Easily rebounded by the opposition because nobody was under the basket. Rose drives to the hoop, takes on the bigs, misses, but because the bigs come out to defend Rose, it leaves Noah wide open for a tip in or KP for a dunk. Do advanced stats look at those plays the same?


Pfft.... talk about being late to the party.
RE: I'm curious if advanced stats  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13253706 Keith said:
Quote:
factor in certain things. I think all advanced stats are a piece to a puzzle, certainly not the answer that a few think they are. That being said, last night for example....Carmelo takes some bad shots and misses. Easily rebounded by the opposition because nobody was under the basket. Rose drives to the hoop, takes on the bigs, misses, but because the bigs come out to defend Rose, it leaves Noah wide open for a tip in or KP for a dunk. Do advanced stats look at those plays the same?


this is exactly what i am saying, stats do not always tell the whole story, yet sg only uses stats and refuses to take anyones opinion based on their eyes..

it is why i challenfed him to watch a game and actually go play by play and mark down positive and negative plays and it will show the positive impact that rose is having
All you stat guro's  
Carl in CT : 12/7/2016 2:29 pm : link
Give me the Knicks Salary cap next year with/without Rose. Thanks in advanced.
Knicks  
Keith : 12/7/2016 2:42 pm : link
salaries
Link - ( New Window )
RE: All you stat guro's  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 2:48 pm : link
In comment 13253726 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Give me the Knicks Salary cap next year with/without Rose. Thanks in advanced.


If the Knicks let Jennings and rose walk they will be at $76M which I think is around $35M-ish in cap space. With rose (at around the rumored $25M I believe) there would be about $10M in space, which at that point I don't think would get you anyone of note and would probably be best to just go over the cap to resign Jennings (which I believe they would be able to).

At this point, I'm warming up the idea of a 3 year extension (id prefer 1-2 year but that's really unlikely. It seems this is the most likely outcome barring any injuries/dropoff in play from Rose. In the outside chance the Clippers have another shitty end to the season (like being bounced from the first round) and having Blake and CP3 leave, I'd certainly forego signing rose to sign Chris Paul.

Another PG I really like is jrue holiday. Nothing against Rose but I think he's become fairly under appreciated (mostly due to injuries). No really apparent flaws to his game, but NO most likely gives a similar deal to him to keep him around.
There are definitely stats  
Sgrcts : 12/7/2016 2:51 pm : link
That tell the story you are looking for the answer for. I'd highly recommend any of you to read that ESPN article I linked earlier. If you dont have insider, shoot me your email and I'll be glad to send over the text. Otherwise, can we just drop it? We aren't changing each other's minds. The last two Knicks game threads you 3 have tried to call me out, yet complain incessantly anytime I post about Rose.
I did call you out,  
Keith : 12/7/2016 2:56 pm : link
but it was more tongue in cheek. Don't get yer panties in a bunch! I strongly disagree with what you see and how you analyze stats. You strongly disagree with how I view the game and view stats as a piece to the puzzle. I'm ok leaving it there. Doesn't mean we can't poke at each other for fun. You want to see the knicks lose, I want to see them win(see!)
Beer  
DanMetroMan : 12/7/2016 2:57 pm : link
RE: I did call you out,  
Sgrcts : 12/7/2016 3:35 pm : link
In comment 13253800 Keith said:
Quote:
but it was more tongue in cheek. Don't get yer panties in a bunch! I strongly disagree with what you see and how you analyze stats. You strongly disagree with how I view the game and view stats as a piece to the puzzle. I'm ok leaving it there. Doesn't mean we can't poke at each other for fun. You want to see the knicks lose, I want to see them win(see!)


Ha- let me know if you want to read that article.
RE: Beer  
Deej : 12/7/2016 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13253806 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:


One wonders whether he's being frozen out in the losses or if those are the games where his shot is not falling anyway. Maybe the stat isnt that KP needs more usage so much as so goes KP's shot goes the Knicks.
It  
DanMetroMan : 12/7/2016 3:43 pm : link
feels like when his shot is not falling he sort of "forces" the 3 ball vs. changing it up. He's the opposite of a selfish player but I'd like to see him take less 3's when he's having a game where it's not falling. Almost turns into a Novak on offense in his "lesser" offensive games.
RE: RE: Beer  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/7/2016 4:07 pm : link
In comment 13253889 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13253806 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:






One wonders whether he's being frozen out in the losses or if those are the games where his shot is not falling anyway. Maybe the stat isnt that KP needs more usage so much as so goes KP's shot goes the Knicks.


I think it's skewed in that when KP is hot, they seem to make a concerted effort to get him the ball. When he's struggling, he becomes a secondary option. Isn't that probably true for any team with multiple scoring options? There can be no doubt that they win when he plays well. According to bask.-ref.com, the Knicks are 7-2 in his 9 best games with a pair of close losses.

Also being 0-4 when he plays less than 30 minutes is a silly stat. They were blown out in ALL 4 of those games... playing him 30+ minutes wouldn't make sense.
RE: Beer  
Aspano! : 12/7/2016 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13253806 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:


How can that first stat be right if the Knicks have only lost 9 games? Wouldn't the total number of losses in both 7-3 and 3-7 amount to 10? :groans:
Hopefully Rose doesn't play tonight  
Aspano! : 12/7/2016 5:16 pm : link
We all know what happens when he scores 15 or more points...
RE: Hopefully Rose doesn't play tonight  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13254039 Aspano! said:
Quote:
We all know what happens when he scores 15 or more points...


Haha I'd read some of the above posts, believe there was some sort of "agreement" made lol.
I have a sense of dread about tonight  
Deej : 12/7/2016 5:54 pm : link
like Cleveland will want to blow away the new look Knicks just to show us how far away we are.

OTOH, if we beat them it will be a massive confidence booster.
RE: I have a sense of dread about tonight  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/7/2016 5:58 pm : link
In comment 13254074 Deej said:
Quote:
like Cleveland will want to blow away the new look Knicks just to show us how far away we are.

OTOH, if we beat them it will be a massive confidence booster.


Even Frank Isola thinks this is a schedule loss after traveling last night and 3 games in 4 nights. If they win or even keep it close, that's great. If they get their doors blown off, oh well, just move on to the WC trip.
Really excited for  
giantsfan44ab : 12/7/2016 6:02 pm : link
the upcoming Lakers/Knicks game. I hate the Lakers but they got some fun players to watch. Would be nice to show them they are still a year or two away before being competitive in the WC.
no rose tonight  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 6:14 pm : link
lets hope jennings can have a good game
no rose tonight  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 6:14 pm : link
lets hope jennings can have a good game
RE: RE: Hopefully Rose doesn't play tonight  
Aspano! : 12/7/2016 6:27 pm : link
In comment 13254072 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13254039 Aspano! said:


Quote:


We all know what happens when he scores 15 or more points...



Haha I'd read some of the above posts, believe there was some sort of "agreement" made lol.


Oh, I wasn't referencing Sgcrts at all. I think it was one of the Knicks beat writers who mentioned that stat a few weeks ago. Those guys are the worst. It's a shame Herring left for 538.
rose is going to get an mri to make sure nothing structural is wrong  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 6:30 pm : link
hornacek said plan is still for him to travel with team, just had some discomfort this morning after sleeping on it
Call up Randle?  
Del Shofner : 12/7/2016 6:34 pm : link
I don't think they can as he's not on the NBA roster.
I think they'd have  
Enzo : 12/7/2016 6:38 pm : link
to release someone if they add Randle. They're already at 15. Get ready for Sasha tonight!
what did phil jackson do to stephen a?  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 6:43 pm : link
he just said lebron can talk shit to phil because he is a winner and phil is a loser? umm what?

stephen a still mad phil made him look stupid with the kp pick?
RE: no rose tonight  
dep026 : 12/7/2016 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13254091 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
lets hope jennings can have a good game


Got him in every fan duel team I started.
RE: RE: no rose tonight  
nygiants16 : 12/7/2016 6:59 pm : link
In comment 13254140 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13254091 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


lets hope jennings can have a good game



Got him in every fan duel team I started.


i did the same thing for draft kings
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