See who the other two pieces are, but I might be somewhat vindicated when a lot of people screamed at me and said Sale would cost the Red Sox Moncada, Benintendi and Devers.
is that it's a 60 million trade chip, right? YM basically is like a transfer fee for Boston. It's like turning his 3/40 contract into a 3/100 contract, except Boston is already out the first 60 million.
Thats the first thing I thought about when I read about this deal. Are we sure that the White Sox don't have to pay the pro-rated portion of that $ 60 mil ? Either way it looks like a very good deal for the Red Sox. They get a true ace for a reasonable contract.
Not lately he isn't, although he doesn't have Tanaka's elbow concerns and a much team-friendlier contract.
If Sale pitches closer to 2014 than 2015-16, then the deal is a winner for Boston. However, with him moving to a much tougher park for pitchers and a stronger division, what if his performance slips a bit further beyond his recent numbers and Moncada becomes an All-Star?
Just saying this deal isn't a cut and dried Sawx win.
Not lately he isn't, although he doesn't have Tanaka's elbow concerns and a much team-friendlier contract.
If Sale pitches closer to 2014 than 2015-16, then the deal is a winner for Boston. However, with him moving to a much tougher park for pitchers and a stronger division, what if his performance slips a bit further beyond his recent numbers and Moncada becomes an All-Star?
Just saying this deal isn't a cut and dried Sawx win.
It's not a win at all. It's the opposite of a win times a million zillion.
Singing bonus was something like 32 million. I assume that's the "lost" money with Chicago taking on the rest.
Also, wasn't the tax on that like double? Didn't it end up bring almost 60 million in signing bonus. That's a ton of money to get zero return on.
NOt only that, but it indirectly led to the Sox making under the table deals (apparently standard practice but the team made an example of) which cost them their ability to sign players at all for a year.
finished tied for 5th in pitching WAR (fangraphs) in 2016, 5th in 2015, tied 8th in 2014 (low innings). That puts him at #3 over the last two seasons. I'm too lazy to look up baseball-reference. Obviously, it isn't the be-all, end-all way to evaluate a pitcher, but he is a stud. Will be a great piece for Boston and will be 28.
White helping Red if you ask me. This is certainly not the value most expected was necessary to get Sale. I thought it was going to take Giolito+Robles++
3.3 in 2015 and 4.9 in 2016 after 5.9, 6.9, 6.6 the previous three seasons.
Sale is good, but some people like to speak of him as if he were the AL equivalent of Kershaw. He's not, at least not lately. And, again, pitching half his starts in Fenway's not going to be a boon for him.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
Oh I agree. Moncada , when you factor in his deal, was easily the best kid available unless the reports on Giolito were totally off-base. They basically fell in love with him and forgot about needing a second sure-thing piece.
if so, by definition he is more highly regarded than anyone else. Kopech is going to be really good IMO. I think he could top off as a 1 but his floor might be a 3. He also could play as an elite closer. Sale is superfluous in light of giving up Espinoza to get a mediocre Pomeranz and backing up the truck to get Price all within 12 months. He's just chasing mistakes to compound them at this point and draining the life out of the system.
They dealt Shaw and now Moncada. I'm going to laugh if they trot Panda out there.
Get ready to laugh. I also think they will try to put Holt in there. Holt is a great player as a utility guy but gets exposed as JAG when put in as a regular.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
I don't know the ranking of Frazier or Rutherford, but Kopech is a wild card. He throws 100, but as I mentioned before he has a nuke laloosh head. He was suspended for PEDs (stimulant) and broke his hand in a fight with a teammate.
but his potential is very high I'd be glad he was included in the trade as a Red Sox hater.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
I don't know the ranking of Frazier or Rutherford, but Kopech is a wild card. He throws 100, but as I mentioned before he has a nuke laloosh head. He was suspended for PEDs (stimulant) and broke his hand in a fight with a teammate.
but his potential is very high I'd be glad he was included in the trade as a Red Sox hater.
Some have argued that Rutherford was the best bat in the entire draft. It's a crapshoot until they prove it at the highest level.
He's only 30 and has turned in some nice seasons even being overweight. I doubt he rebounds to anything near his 5.0 WAR peak, but something like 2-2.5 WAR (which the Sox would completely love) is more realistic than him completely flopping again in 2017 IMO.
Law said Rutherford would have had the best bat in this year's draft
between Giolito/Robles package (as reported) and a Moncada/Kopech, I think they made the wrong decision. Sox ponied up but I'm surprised it didn't take at least Moncada/Devers.
I have to think this means Washington wouldn't do Robles and Turner
Tough market out there for teams still trying to acquire SP. They'll end up giving up top prospects for mediocre SP.
Red Sox look untouchable in a declining division, Sale is a great addition. Glad he didn't go to the Nats.
That's what they said about the Red Sox when they got Price. Pitchers don't always perform as expected. Regardless, if you're going to hold a franchise for the long term, you can't merely make decisions for the moment. Dombrowski has never gotten that.
I think people just assume Sale is still the pitcher he was in 2014
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
Oh I agree. Moncada , when you factor in his deal, was easily the best kid available unless the reports on Giolito were totally off-base. They basically fell in love with him and forgot about needing a second sure-thing piece.
If I remember correctly, the ratings at the end of the year had Moncada ranked as the top (or 2nd) rated player in the minors.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
is Giolito's stock is a bit down from it's insane helium "by far the best minor league starter"{. Doesn't mean he won't be good. I would have given him up over Turner without a second thought.
the Yankees need to keep after right-handed hitting. With another solid LH starter in the division and the shifting against LH hitting, the signing of Holliday seems even more prudent.
don't know McCutchen from a hole in the wall but it's weird how suddenly he's been tarnished as having low energy, questionable "leadership" when previous seasons he was depicted as a golden boy type.
is Giolito's stock is a bit down from it's insane helium "by far the best minor league starter"{. Doesn't mean he won't be good. I would have given him up over Turner without a second thought.
don't know McCutchen from a hole in the wall but it's weird how suddenly he's been tarnished as having low energy, questionable "leadership" when previous seasons he was depicted as a golden boy type.
I've read up on his 2016 season and it seems he was banged up for most of it and played injured. I think there is a lot of posturing going on as the Pirates realize they need to shift and reload to compete with the Cubs, Mets and Nationals.
is Giolito's stock is a bit down from it's insane helium "by far the best minor league starter"{. Doesn't mean he won't be good. I would have given him up over Turner without a second thought.
Agree. Turner's bat in 2016 changed quite a bit. Amazing how well a trade can work out for one side. Turner AND Ross for who? - ( New Window )
Yeah that deal sure worked out for Washington. Turner has a bit of a Reyes/Ellsbury in their primes like effect. Hard to find guys like that.
don't know McCutchen from a hole in the wall but it's weird how suddenly he's been tarnished as having low energy, questionable "leadership" when previous seasons he was depicted as a golden boy type.
I've read up on his 2016 season and it seems he was banged up for most of it and played injured. I think there is a lot of posturing going on as the Pirates realize they need to shift and reload to compete with the Cubs, Mets and Nationals.
Yeah final 56 games his numbers were nearly identical to his 2015 where he was in the running for MVP. I don't know his personality/him at all just weird how a team is trying to dump him and now he's an off field concern. I actually think depending on the price someone has a shot to get a steal.
Dombrowski to come in and completely wipe out the Sox farm system and cash within a few seasons.
He probably looks at it as the "Bird in the Hand is worth two in the bush" scenario. In Sale he is getting a quality SP that has proved his worth in the bigs. The others are all highly touted prospects who may or may not be able to bring their game the bigs. Its not unusual in MLB for a "can't miss" prospect to never make it.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
Tough market out there for teams still trying to acquire SP. They'll end up giving up top prospects for mediocre SP.
Red Sox look untouchable in a declining division, Sale is a great addition. Glad he didn't go to the Nats.
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If that's true I wonder what the ransom would be for Mets pitchers. Have to rotate the stock at some point as I doubt they're resigning all these guys and allowing them to walk would be a disaster. Time is on the Mets side but time does fly.
RE: they also lost their best bat by a good margin
I hate the Red Sox as much as most Yankees fans, so I would love to see this blow up, but I think Ortiz's loss while big can be overcome pretty easily.
their offense was #1 in baseball by a decent margin. Only the Rockies were close.
If Price doesn't suck this year they won't need as much offense anyway, not to even mention Sale.
Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching, like Dodgers,Atlanta,StLouis, Yanks, it'd be different, but its like JRs project OLs and LBs.
I believe 1 of the 2 prospects will be a AAA and a AA pitcher, and the AA the better of the 2.
And that locker room will be a UCF ring if they crap by 7/4.
Well, they also had Hanley staying healthy and posting his best numbers in six years at age 32. Will he repeat that? I'm almost completely certain that Sandy Leon won't hit remotely like he did last year.
They'll be a good team. I think it's uncertain how good they'll be.
Well, they also had Hanley staying healthy and posting his best numbers in six years at age 32. Will he repeat that? I'm almost completely certain that Sandy Leon won't hit remotely like he did last year.
They'll be a good team. I think it's uncertain how good they'll be.
I hope they are a disaster, but unfortunately with the Red Sox and Patriots I have taken to reverse psychology, assume they'll win and hope they lose, this way I'm not disappointed. I even bet every year in Vegas on both to win their league championships. I've collected a few times.
This year I even bet the Patriots win total over (10.5).
It's actually a pretty good analogy and it might not even be an analogy. There's been rumors for a few years that Henry is losing interest in owning a baseball team, especially now that he's a soccer club owner. Dombrowski is old and won't see many more seasons, aside from the fact that his whole history is about destroying systems and not building them. I wonder if collectively they are all saying, "let's carpe diem and skedaddle our the door and who gives a fuck what we leave behind."
Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
You have got to be kidding, right? They fucking got Cespedes!
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
I'm really crying over this deal (not). Loss of Kopeck in particular is painful. Moncada really doesn't have a position if you expect the Panda to play 3B, so he's still an incredibly talented developmental prospect, but not as "ripe" as Benintendi.
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
the Red Sox are clearly a juggernaut, but a lot can happen between Spring Training and champagne popping. I assume that this will blow up in Boston's face not because I hate Boston, though I do, but because only Dombrowski could manage to parlay a Top 5 farm system in baseball and a dynamic young team into an October disappointment on an annual basis.
Going
Out
Of
Business.
You were close.
And I still adhere to 'they can't develop pitchers'. And Mgr Farrell, who was a mistake to keep IMHO, really could not get Price corrected last year, while it took Pedroia to figure out ERodwas tipping off his pitchers(when your mgr WAS a pitching coach).
And as someone said, Sale of 15/16 was not the Sale of 12/13. Plus they WILL miss DO, and the crowd getting the team pumped when he came to bat, especially in a clutch situation.
I'm really crying over this deal (not). Loss of Kopeck in particular is painful. Moncada really doesn't have a position if you expect the Panda to play 3B, so he's still an incredibly talented developmental prospect, but not as "ripe" as Benintendi.
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
Moncada doesn't have a position because of Panda. That's like a Yankees fan saying Gleyber Torres doesn't have a spot because of Headley. Crazy talk. When these kids are ready, you give the boot to these average, overrated, old players.
I'm really crying over this deal (not). Loss of Kopeck in particular is painful. Moncada really doesn't have a position if you expect the Panda to play 3B, so he's still an incredibly talented developmental prospect, but not as "ripe" as Benintendi.
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
Moncada doesn't have a position because of Panda. That's like a Yankees fan saying Gleyber Torres doesn't have a spot because of Headley. Crazy talk. When these kids are ready, you give the boot to these average, overrated, old players.
moncada would not have played next year. He simply isn't ready. And that's what his abysmal failures versus curveballs show... not that he isn't good enough, not that he's flawed, not that you can't trust him going forward....it's that he's young and inexperienced and still has learning to do. But that's okay. It's foolish and a recipe for long-term failure to say that he can't help us come April so let's get rid of him. Same for Espinoza, Margot, Or even Anthony Rizzo. The club goes beyond next year. It's a shame that Dombrowski's vision does not.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
WS favorites? I don't see how they are appreciably better than the Cubs, Mets with a healthy rotation, or the Rangers. There is a lot of parity in the league and with injuries the magical equalizer, there is no favorite to win next year.
Looked like a deer in the headlights when he was called up. He even got caught napping once on base thinking there were 3 outs when there were only 2. He cannot hit a major league curve ball. He is nowhere near major league ready and the Sandoval excuse as to having no position is BS. Sandoval was out all year and Moncada was given the opportunity to play 3B. He looked very pedestrian defensively. It is possible he will be another Rusney Castillo.
Looked like a deer in the headlights when he was called up. He even got caught napping once on base thinking there were 3 outs when there were only 2. He cannot hit a major league curve ball. He is nowhere near major league ready and the Sandoval excuse as to having no position is BS. Sandoval was out all year and Moncada was given the opportunity to play 3B. He looked very pedestrian defensively. It is possible he will be another Rusney Castillo.
Moncada skipped AAA (for some reason). He remains a supreme talent. Doesn't mean he won't bust, but a bad cup of coffee in the bigs doesn't tell me that will happen.
must mean the Sox can't win next season b/c of last. You can learn a lot from a12 year old when you have the mentality of a six year old.
First off... get your sports right
We are talking MLB not NFL.
Second I am stating a fact the Red Sox with all their hubris last year and Popi's going away season Did Bumpkis!
Shit the bed! Folded like a wet noodle, Screwed the Pooch.
Didn't show up, fucked the dog, etc
Not one Game won in the post season.(ESPN was crushed)
So excuse me if getting Sale (not the Sale of years ago) all of a sudden makes the media want to put this team in the World Series is bullshit! Indians Rangers, Orioles,Royals might have something to say about it. Besides
the National League has the Cubs,Mets,Nats Dodgers and few other teams that are better and don't play in Little league Parks.(That Wall produces a lot of their offense)
So Redsox fans should take the humility and the shit sandwich the Indians gave them and put away the bragging till at-least this years team does something.
There now do you get it or do we need sock puppets?
I think though he might have been the type that was intimidated to play in Boston. Not saying he would fail but I think he stands a better chance of succeeding in Chicago. The Boston media is absolutely brutal on their athletes. As tough as Yankee fans and media can be on them, they don't come close to the scrutiny the Boston media puts them through. And Sox are far from depleting their farm system. Yes, it took a hit.
aimed at anyone in particular but man are people impatient. I saw 2 different people make the claim Buxton is a "bust" (1 called him a bust, 1 gave a trade proposal that was absurdly in the Mets favor).
Buxton will be all of 23 years old this season, 92 games this season 1.7 fWAR, career +7 DRS in CF, 114 wRC+ second half, .344 wOBA. Kid has all of the talent to not just be good, but be an absolute star. He was rushed to the bigs
It was a top 5 system a year ago.. I'd be shocked if it wasn't bottom 20% right now. I think they've lost something no like their top 8 players from a year ago and really only have Devers and groome of consequence right now.
Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
You have got to be kidding, right? They fucking got Cespedes!
You do that trade 100 out of 100 times.
Thats not the point. This isn't about the Mets. We're talking about Dombrowski. He knew he was out the door in Detroit at the time. And still got max value for a player that could walk at the end of the season. He could have got lesser and not gave a shit.
And folks are ready to give up on him based on his k rates in a cup of coffee. Don't get me wrong, sometimes folks get more leash than they deserve because they are, or were, top prospects, but by and large the problem is impatience.
2 top 10 prospects vs #1 and #30? Then again, I guess we don't know what the Nats really offered.
Would you give Torres and Frzier + for Sale? Most probably would, I'm not so sure.
I wouldn't, Jim. We need impact positional players just as much as pitching, and Torres seems like one in the making, with Frazier a bit more of a question mark -- but I wouldn't bet against him as a middle of the order bat down the line. Now, Judge and Severino as the highlights of a trade I'd go for, since both are a bit hit or miss, despite the potential.
Had no idea who Thornburg was, but he sure has nice stats at
Milwaukee. It just goes to show you how deep their system was. As much as we Yankees fan like to joke how ESPN overhypes the Sox's system, apparently other GM's like their prospects just as much.
Instead of knee-jerk reactions, and I really hope Cash doesn't do anything stupid after the Red Sox = Warriors comment, the Yanks should look at how the Sox built up their minor league system in the past few years and not try to make a splash now.
I see nothing wrong with the Cashman Warriors comment, if you read the whole article it's not that far off, and don't forget it was Larry Lucchino who dubbed the Yankees the "evil empire" after Contreras selected the Yankees over the Red Sox, and the media thought that was cute.
I see nothing wrong with the Cashman Warriors comment, if you read the whole article it's not that far off, and don't forget it was Larry Lucchino who dubbed the Yankees the "evil empire" after Contreras selected the Yankees over the Red Sox, and the media thought that was cute.
I don't know if it's quite the same as the Warriors or Evil Empire. In both those cases, it was a the flexing of financial power. Actually, I'm not sure what drove Durant; it wasn't only money but basketball better allows for a superstar to get a bunch of his superstar friends to get together and form a band. Evil Empire of NY versus Boston was purely who could outspend the other though. In this case, there is the sacrifice of assets to acquire a different asset. Money indirectly (or directly in the case of Moncada) does drive some of it, but there is a strong component of drafting, building and development as well. It's not just purely purchasing someone. I wish it was, though, because then I could support acquiring Sale.
I see nothing wrong with the Cashman Warriors comment, if you read the whole article it's not that far off, and don't forget it was Larry Lucchino who dubbed the Yankees the "evil empire" after Contreras selected the Yankees over the Red Sox, and the media thought that was cute.
I don't know if it's quite the same as the Warriors or Evil Empire. In both those cases, it was a the flexing of financial power. Actually, I'm not sure what drove Durant; it wasn't only money but basketball better allows for a superstar to get a bunch of his superstar friends to get together and form a band. Evil Empire of NY versus Boston was purely who could outspend the other though. In this case, there is the sacrifice of assets to acquire a different asset. Money indirectly (or directly in the case of Moncada) does drive some of it, but there is a strong component of drafting, building and development as well. It's not just purely purchasing someone. I wish it was, though, because then I could support acquiring Sale.
I don't think he meant purely Sale or even money. but the $$ is relevant: Price, Moncada, Hanley, Sandoval, etc. the Red Sox have become everything they railed against.
And it rang hollow to me anyway when the Red Sox complained about the Yankees spending because at the time, 28 other teams had lower payrolls than the Red Sox. It was only the Yankees, 1 team, higher than them.
In either case I don't think it was purely related to Sale and free agents. It was the collection of players and the pressure on the roster to win.
Read the article on ESPN I won't link it because I hate them, but it's there.
Red Sox payroll is over $200M, with arbitration it's projected to be $210M.
will deal "something" for Buchholz. The pitching market is/was awful and he's "only" owed 13.5 and plays for a team that clearly is willing to eat some money. I'm not saying they get some boffo return but 13-15 392 innings 3.28 FIP. The Marlins just gave Volquez 22 million.
He's been really bad in two of the past three seasons
And he only made 18 starts in the other one. Basically, his pattern is he misses half the season if he's pitching well, and if he stays healthy then he sucks. He turns 33 next season.
And he only made 18 starts in the other one. Basically, his pattern is he misses half the season if he's pitching well, and if he stays healthy then he sucks. He turns 33 next season.
Greg,
I'm not suggesting he's good or that he brings back some beast return. Rather, guys like Volquez (jumping the market no less) got 22 million and with so many teams looking for SP, I suspect there will be a team that "takes a shot" on him being solid for 1 year.
???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
So, football season is 3/4 of the way over, Dallas has lost one game, and baseball season hasn't even started yet. Boston has won zero. Nice comparison. Way to make a point.
was banished to the bullpen last year for being so bad.
He did regain his starters role in September - really due to the knuckleballers injury - and pitched reasonably well, and he may very well get moved in a salary dump but he's not a reliable starter.
???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
So, football season is 3/4 of the way over, Dallas has lost one game, and baseball season hasn't even started yet. Boston has won zero. Nice comparison. Way to make a point.
Give yourself a A skippy for showing up to class,
Looks like the Davis-Soler trade is final, awaiting physicals.
See who the other two pieces are, but I might be somewhat vindicated when a lot of people screamed at me and said Sale would cost the Red Sox Moncada, Benintendi and Devers.
I said two of the three at most.
Kopech throws 100, but has a nuke laloosh head.
Hope this isn't another BS trade where the Sox get off light. Devers or Bradley Jr. better be in that package.
He was that good in 2014. Since then, not so much.
Can they trade Groome yet?
Diaz I'm not familiar with.
Not lately he isn't, although he doesn't have Tanaka's elbow concerns and a much team-friendlier contract.
If Sale pitches closer to 2014 than 2015-16, then the deal is a winner for Boston. However, with him moving to a much tougher park for pitchers and a stronger division, what if his performance slips a bit further beyond his recent numbers and Moncada becomes an All-Star?
Just saying this deal isn't a cut and dried Sawx win.
Also, wasn't the tax on that like double? Didn't it end up bring almost 60 million in signing bonus. That's a ton of money to get zero return on.
Quote:
Serious question.
Not lately he isn't, although he doesn't have Tanaka's elbow concerns and a much team-friendlier contract.
If Sale pitches closer to 2014 than 2015-16, then the deal is a winner for Boston. However, with him moving to a much tougher park for pitchers and a stronger division, what if his performance slips a bit further beyond his recent numbers and Moncada becomes an All-Star?
Just saying this deal isn't a cut and dried Sawx win.
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Singing bonus was something like 32 million. I assume that's the "lost" money with Chicago taking on the rest.
Also, wasn't the tax on that like double? Didn't it end up bring almost 60 million in signing bonus. That's a ton of money to get zero return on.
As Z noted it was like 30 for the bonus and 30 for the tax. The remaining payments are basically a MiLB salary -- i.e. nothing.
White helping Red if you ask me. This is certainly not the value most expected was necessary to get Sale. I thought it was going to take Giolito+Robles++
Although I don't know enough about the non-Moncada prospects
Sale is good, but some people like to speak of him as if he were the AL equivalent of Kershaw. He's not, at least not lately. And, again, pitching half his starts in Fenway's not going to be a boon for him.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
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Frazier, Rutherford, Acevedo and Amburgey.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
Oh I agree. Moncada , when you factor in his deal, was easily the best kid available unless the reports on Giolito were totally off-base. They basically fell in love with him and forgot about needing a second sure-thing piece.
Yes
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Frazier, Rutherford, Acevedo and Amburgey.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
I don't know the ranking of Frazier or Rutherford, but Kopech is a wild card. He throws 100, but as I mentioned before he has a nuke laloosh head. He was suspended for PEDs (stimulant) and broke his hand in a fight with a teammate.
but his potential is very high I'd be glad he was included in the trade as a Red Sox hater.
I posted this earlier.
Panda looks like he lost half his body weight.
Can Panda even trot?
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In comment 13251952 RasputinPrime said:
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Frazier, Rutherford, Acevedo and Amburgey.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
I don't know the ranking of Frazier or Rutherford, but Kopech is a wild card. He throws 100, but as I mentioned before he has a nuke laloosh head. He was suspended for PEDs (stimulant) and broke his hand in a fight with a teammate.
but his potential is very high I'd be glad he was included in the trade as a Red Sox hater.
Some have argued that Rutherford was the best bat in the entire draft. It's a crapshoot until they prove it at the highest level.
He's only 30 and has turned in some nice seasons even being overweight. I doubt he rebounds to anything near his 5.0 WAR peak, but something like 2-2.5 WAR (which the Sox would completely love) is more realistic than him completely flopping again in 2017 IMO.
Being in SF, I saw him play quite a bit - he's never lost THAT much weight.
Who knows if he'll get back to his "prime" playing days, but maybe he was motivated by what happened last year to get his shit together.
Maybe.
But, you have to have SP to contend.
Tough market out there for teams still trying to acquire SP. They'll end up giving up top prospects for mediocre SP.
Red Sox look untouchable in a declining division, Sale is a great addition. Glad he didn't go to the Nats.
But, you have to have SP to contend.
Tough market out there for teams still trying to acquire SP. They'll end up giving up top prospects for mediocre SP.
Red Sox look untouchable in a declining division, Sale is a great addition. Glad he didn't go to the Nats.
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In comment 13251952 RasputinPrime said:
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Frazier, Rutherford, Acevedo and Amburgey.
Not really. Moncada is more highly regarded than either Frazier or Rutherford, but none of the secondary pieces are close to their level.
Oh I agree. Moncada , when you factor in his deal, was easily the best kid available unless the reports on Giolito were totally off-base. They basically fell in love with him and forgot about needing a second sure-thing piece.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
Agree. Turner's bat in 2016 changed quite a bit. Amazing how well a trade can work out for one side.
Turner AND Ross for who? - ( New Window )
I've read up on his 2016 season and it seems he was banged up for most of it and played injured. I think there is a lot of posturing going on as the Pirates realize they need to shift and reload to compete with the Cubs, Mets and Nationals.
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is Giolito's stock is a bit down from it's insane helium "by far the best minor league starter"{. Doesn't mean he won't be good. I would have given him up over Turner without a second thought.
Agree. Turner's bat in 2016 changed quite a bit. Amazing how well a trade can work out for one side. Turner AND Ross for who? - ( New Window )
Yeah that deal sure worked out for Washington. Turner has a bit of a Reyes/Ellsbury in their primes like effect. Hard to find guys like that.
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don't know McCutchen from a hole in the wall but it's weird how suddenly he's been tarnished as having low energy, questionable "leadership" when previous seasons he was depicted as a golden boy type.
I've read up on his 2016 season and it seems he was banged up for most of it and played injured. I think there is a lot of posturing going on as the Pirates realize they need to shift and reload to compete with the Cubs, Mets and Nationals.
Yeah final 56 games his numbers were nearly identical to his 2015 where he was in the running for MVP. I don't know his personality/him at all just weird how a team is trying to dump him and now he's an off field concern. I actually think depending on the price someone has a shot to get a steal.
Me neither he is going to be a superstar. .342/.370/.567 batting line for a rookie is just incredible.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
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more pieces to put together a move for cutch.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
But, you have to have SP to contend.
Tough market out there for teams still trying to acquire SP. They'll end up giving up top prospects for mediocre SP.
Red Sox look untouchable in a declining division, Sale is a great addition. Glad he didn't go to the Nats.
If that's true I wonder what the ransom would be for Mets pitchers. Have to rotate the stock at some point as I doubt they're resigning all these guys and allowing them to walk would be a disaster. Time is on the Mets side but time does fly.
I hate the Red Sox as much as most Yankees fans, so I would love to see this blow up, but I think Ortiz's loss while big can be overcome pretty easily.
their offense was #1 in baseball by a decent margin. Only the Rockies were close.
If Price doesn't suck this year they won't need as much offense anyway, not to even mention Sale.
I believe 1 of the 2 prospects will be a AAA and a AA pitcher, and the AA the better of the 2.
And that locker room will be a UCF ring if they crap by 7/4.
They'll be a good team. I think it's uncertain how good they'll be.
They'll be a good team. I think it's uncertain how good they'll be.
I hope they are a disaster, but unfortunately with the Red Sox and Patriots I have taken to reverse psychology, assume they'll win and hope they lose, this way I'm not disappointed. I even bet every year in Vegas on both to win their league championships. I've collected a few times.
This year I even bet the Patriots win total over (10.5).
I'll bite
Is a GOOB sale anything like a BOGO sale?
I'll bite
Is a GOOB sale anything like a BOGO sale?
This McCutchen talk screams of the Bucs prepping the fan base for the trade. Sad.
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
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Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
You have got to be kidding, right? They fucking got Cespedes!
You do that trade 100 out of 100 times.
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In comment 13252042 RasputinPrime said:
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more pieces to put together a move for cutch.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
Or..At the very least Win a Post Season Game!
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wouldn't have parted with Turner.
Me neither he is going to be a superstar. .342/.370/.567 batting line for a rookie is just incredible.
How about Gary .299/.376/.657 Sanchez ain't too shabby either.
Andy Martino Verified account
@martinonyc
Mets have talked to Royals, but it's hard to see a fit for Wade Davis in prospects and $.
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
Don't tell Andy Pettite, Bruce Hurst, Ron Guidry or Jon Lester that
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Out
Of
Business.
You were close.
And I still adhere to 'they can't develop pitchers'. And Mgr Farrell, who was a mistake to keep IMHO, really could not get Price corrected last year, while it took Pedroia to figure out ERodwas tipping off his pitchers(when your mgr WAS a pitching coach).
And as someone said, Sale of 15/16 was not the Sale of 12/13. Plus they WILL miss DO, and the crowd getting the team pumped when he came to bat, especially in a clutch situation.
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
Moncada doesn't have a position because of Panda. That's like a Yankees fan saying Gleyber Torres doesn't have a spot because of Headley. Crazy talk. When these kids are ready, you give the boot to these average, overrated, old players.
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I'm really crying over this deal (not). Loss of Kopeck in particular is painful. Moncada really doesn't have a position if you expect the Panda to play 3B, so he's still an incredibly talented developmental prospect, but not as "ripe" as Benintendi.
Sale, Price, and Porcello looks like a pretty darn good top-three, but you never really know how any of these guys are going to work out. He could win the Cy Young and be the World Series MVP or he could blow out his elbow before the season ever starts. Let's see what happens.
Moncada doesn't have a position because of Panda. That's like a Yankees fan saying Gleyber Torres doesn't have a spot because of Headley. Crazy talk. When these kids are ready, you give the boot to these average, overrated, old players.
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
I am sorry what does a football team have to do with a baseball team that folded like the deck chairs of the Titanic in the post season?
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In comment 13252342 shelovesnycsports said:
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
I am sorry what does a football team have to do with a baseball team that folded like the deck chairs of the Titanic in the post season?
You are sorry
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In comment 13252381 Giants2012 said:
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In comment 13252342 shelovesnycsports said:
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
I am sorry what does a football team have to do with a baseball team that folded like the deck chairs of the Titanic in the post season?
You are sorry
Wow fantastic rebuttle. What are about 12?
The Redsox shit the bed last season! face it. They couldn't win ONE game.
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In comment 13252042 RasputinPrime said:
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more pieces to put together a move for cutch.
I still can't believe that is all it took to get a deal done for a very affordable Sale. It appears that Moncada will be a stud but there isn't a single sure thing kicked in to that deal. WS have been hurting for an OFer for a while and I would have thought Bradley or Benintendi would have been the second piece.
Sale isn't a sure thing but no starter is. You do need them to win though and this was a solid move by the R-Sox. I wonder if we will ever get word on the potential deal with the Nationals for Sale.
You need them to win for sure, but you also need sustained success. I had thought that the Red Sox (and Yankees for that matter) had moved beyond the 80's/90's philosophy of draining the systems for guys with names.
The Red Sox have youth/long-term contracts all over the diamond. Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, Bogaerts, E-rod, Swihart (the latter two have some proving to do and JBJ not exactly young at 26/27, but not old).
Still have Devers and Groome + in the minors.
and long-term Price (opt out not withstanding), Porcello, Sale, Kimbrel, Pedroia, Porcello, Hanley, etc.
why not "go for it"?
They added Sale and Thornburg to a 93-win team. Pending other moves this winter they have to be considered WS favorites.
WS favorites? I don't see how they are appreciably better than the Cubs, Mets with a healthy rotation, or the Rangers. There is a lot of parity in the league and with injuries the magical equalizer, there is no favorite to win next year.
Moncada skipped AAA (for some reason). He remains a supreme talent. Doesn't mean he won't bust, but a bad cup of coffee in the bigs doesn't tell me that will happen.
First off... get your sports right
We are talking MLB not NFL.
Second I am stating a fact the Red Sox with all their hubris last year and Popi's going away season Did Bumpkis!
Shit the bed! Folded like a wet noodle, Screwed the Pooch.
Didn't show up, fucked the dog, etc
Not one Game won in the post season.(ESPN was crushed)
So excuse me if getting Sale (not the Sale of years ago) all of a sudden makes the media want to put this team in the World Series is bullshit! Indians Rangers, Orioles,Royals might have something to say about it. Besides
the National League has the Cubs,Mets,Nats Dodgers and few other teams that are better and don't play in Little league Parks.(That Wall produces a lot of their offense)
So Redsox fans should take the humility and the shit sandwich the Indians gave them and put away the bragging till at-least this years team does something.
There now do you get it or do we need sock puppets?
Well just a couple special Milk Shakes from the DR and he could play another 10 years in that little league park.
Buxton will be all of 23 years old this season, 92 games this season 1.7 fWAR, career +7 DRS in CF, 114 wRC+ second half, .344 wOBA. Kid has all of the talent to not just be good, but be an absolute star. He was rushed to the bigs
87 games in A+
60 in AA
62 in AAA
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In comment 13252126 old man said:
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Davis Dumb is not great at acquiring pitching,overpays, and they have been dumping prospects for a few years like it was a true GOOB sale.If they knew how to develop pitching
Did a pretty good job getting Fullmer from the Mets
You have got to be kidding, right? They fucking got Cespedes!
You do that trade 100 out of 100 times.
Thats not the point. This isn't about the Mets. We're talking about Dombrowski. He knew he was out the door in Detroit at the time. And still got max value for a player that could walk at the end of the season. He could have got lesser and not gave a shit.
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In comment 13252390 shelovesnycsports said:
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In comment 13252381 Giants2012 said:
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In comment 13252342 shelovesnycsports said:
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
I am sorry what does a football team have to do with a baseball team that folded like the deck chairs of the Titanic in the post season?
You are sorry
Wow fantastic rebuttle. What are about 12?
The Redsox shit the bed last season! face it. They couldn't win ONE game.
But at least the Red Sox weren't home playing golf like the Yankees
Would you give Torres and Frzier + for Sale? Most probably would, I'm not so sure.
Would you give Torres and Frzier + for Sale? Most probably would, I'm not so sure.
I wouldn't, Jim. We need impact positional players just as much as pitching, and Torres seems like one in the making, with Frazier a bit more of a question mark -- but I wouldn't bet against him as a middle of the order bat down the line. Now, Judge and Severino as the highlights of a trade I'd go for, since both are a bit hit or miss, despite the potential.
Instead of knee-jerk reactions, and I really hope Cash doesn't do anything stupid after the Red Sox = Warriors comment, the Yanks should look at how the Sox built up their minor league system in the past few years and not try to make a splash now.
Just remember we are looking towards the future.
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In comment 13252029 DanMetroMan said:
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wouldn't have parted with Turner.
Me neither he is going to be a superstar. .342/.370/.567 batting line for a rookie is just incredible.
How about Gary .299/.376/.657 Sanchez ain't too shabby either.
I can't argue with you Sanchez was fantastic as well.
I don't know if it's quite the same as the Warriors or Evil Empire. In both those cases, it was a the flexing of financial power. Actually, I'm not sure what drove Durant; it wasn't only money but basketball better allows for a superstar to get a bunch of his superstar friends to get together and form a band. Evil Empire of NY versus Boston was purely who could outspend the other though. In this case, there is the sacrifice of assets to acquire a different asset. Money indirectly (or directly in the case of Moncada) does drive some of it, but there is a strong component of drafting, building and development as well. It's not just purely purchasing someone. I wish it was, though, because then I could support acquiring Sale.
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I see nothing wrong with the Cashman Warriors comment, if you read the whole article it's not that far off, and don't forget it was Larry Lucchino who dubbed the Yankees the "evil empire" after Contreras selected the Yankees over the Red Sox, and the media thought that was cute.
I don't know if it's quite the same as the Warriors or Evil Empire. In both those cases, it was a the flexing of financial power. Actually, I'm not sure what drove Durant; it wasn't only money but basketball better allows for a superstar to get a bunch of his superstar friends to get together and form a band. Evil Empire of NY versus Boston was purely who could outspend the other though. In this case, there is the sacrifice of assets to acquire a different asset. Money indirectly (or directly in the case of Moncada) does drive some of it, but there is a strong component of drafting, building and development as well. It's not just purely purchasing someone. I wish it was, though, because then I could support acquiring Sale.
I don't think he meant purely Sale or even money. but the $$ is relevant: Price, Moncada, Hanley, Sandoval, etc. the Red Sox have become everything they railed against.
And it rang hollow to me anyway when the Red Sox complained about the Yankees spending because at the time, 28 other teams had lower payrolls than the Red Sox. It was only the Yankees, 1 team, higher than them.
In either case I don't think it was purely related to Sale and free agents. It was the collection of players and the pressure on the roster to win.
Read the article on ESPN I won't link it because I hate them, but it's there.
Red Sox payroll is over $200M, with arbitration it's projected to be $210M.
Absolutely no one is trading anything for Clay Buchholz. He's awful, he's always injured, and he's past thirty.
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Odds are they trade Buchholz or Pomerantz for some young talent or picks. May help to lessen some of the mid range losses (not Moncada or Kopech).
Absolutely no one is trading anything for Clay Buchholz. He's awful, he's always injured, and he's past thirty.
and he looks like a meth addict.
2011 - 124 ERA+, 14 starts
2012 - 92 ERA+, 29 starts
2013 - 237 ERA+, 16 starts ..... that fucking fluke Sawx season
2014 - 75 ERA+, 28 starts
2015 - 132 ERA+, 18 starts
2016 - 95 ERA+, 37 starts
2011 - 124 ERA+, 14 starts
2012 - 92 ERA+, 29 starts
2013 - 237 ERA+, 16 starts ..... that fucking fluke Sawx season
2014 - 75 ERA+, 28 starts
2015 - 132 ERA+, 18 starts
2016 - 95 ERA+, 37 starts
Greg,
I'm not suggesting he's good or that he brings back some beast return. Rather, guys like Volquez (jumping the market no less) got 22 million and with so many teams looking for SP, I suspect there will be a team that "takes a shot" on him being solid for 1 year.
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
So, football season is 3/4 of the way over, Dallas has lost one game, and baseball season hasn't even started yet. Boston has won zero. Nice comparison. Way to make a point.
He did regain his starters role in September - really due to the knuckleballers injury - and pitched reasonably well, and he may very well get moved in a salary dump but he's not a reliable starter.
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In comment 13252342 shelovesnycsports said:
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???
They won as many post season games last year as the Rays.
Must mean the Dallas Cowboys aren't good this year b/c they weren't last year too right? Way to make a point
So, football season is 3/4 of the way over, Dallas has lost one game, and baseball season hasn't even started yet. Boston has won zero. Nice comparison. Way to make a point.
Give yourself a A skippy for showing up to class,