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If the argument is  
ryanmkeane : 12/6/2016 3:26 pm : link
"The Giants should be 9-3 because they should have won their home game against Washington largely due to a pretty bad day by Manning" - then sure, I'll take that.
BTW  
MarylandPete : 12/6/2016 3:28 pm : link
BTW- to me Eli had never been an elite QB. Just a guy who somehow knows how to win.
All based on PFF statistics without really mentioning  
Britt in VA : 12/6/2016 3:28 pm : link
any of the offensive instability at all.

Pretty much garbage.
ryank  
MarylandPete : 12/6/2016 3:30 pm : link
Skins won because of unbelievable stupid penalties not Eli.
Basically..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 3:30 pm : link
that is an article completely regurgitating PFF and their ridiculous metrics.

I figured there might be some analysis that wasn't tied to PFF, but I was sorely disappointed.
Well... regardless of the article...  
x meadowlander : 12/6/2016 3:32 pm : link
...this team does, in fact, live and die by Eli.

As it has ever since he was signed.


If he can't figure out how to get that Offense untracked, Giants aren't going anywhere in January.
i've been an Eli apologist  
Justlurking : 12/6/2016 3:35 pm : link
but he has been awful this season. He is inaccurate as he has ever been. There is nothing unfair about that article or PFF's metrics.
Actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/6/2016 3:40 pm : link
there is a lot wrong with that article.

To have the premise that Eli is seriously endangering the Giant's playoff hopes you'd have to prove that there is a replacement that would not damage the hopes.

Damn tough to do with the OL the way it is and not having a running game. The article makes it sound like Eli is the reason the offense is bad.
People see what they want to see....  
Britt in VA : 12/6/2016 3:41 pm : link
nobody can tell them otherwise.
Well, he's certainly had accuracy issues this season.  
Mad Mike : 12/6/2016 3:44 pm : link
Suggesting he's the problem seems a little silly to me, but it also doesn't make sense to ignore that he's hurt the offense at times. But we all know that he can go from off to on very quickly - hopefully the line will make it a little easier for him to do that the rest of the way.
The  
AcidTest : 12/6/2016 3:51 pm : link
truth is somewhere between the Eli apologists and this article.

Eli is handicapped by no run game, and a porous OL, including a bad LT. Pugh is out. Richburg gets pushed back. Jerry is average. Hart is improving, but still young. Eli also has no TE that can stretch the seam. Teams are therefore playing their safeties back, so he's frequently throwing against six or seven DBs. Aside from OBJ, who is getting any separation?

But he has been inaccurate, too many of this throws wobble, and he's had a lot of trouble with deep balls. He's also been lucky that more of his passes weren't intercepted, including two against the Bears.

The question is what is causing these problems. It may just be age, and the cumulative negative effect of all the hits he's taken. Or he may be hurt. He took big hits against Washington and Chicago.

My verdict is that Eli isn't the biggest reason, but is a reason, why the offense is moribund. Right now, he can't carry a team like he used to. If that's because of injury, then he may eventually return to his old form, although that might not be until next year. If it's because of age, then the situation isn't likely to improve much, even with an offseason of healing.

The Giants will know in the offseason whether to start looking for Eli's replacement in the draft. The key will be whether they use a day one or two pick on a QB. Nassib, Bomar, Lorenzen, and Woodson were all day three picks. Low cost fliers that if they didn't develop wouldn't cost the team much in terms of picks and salary.
I love me some Eli  
dancing blue bear : 12/6/2016 3:51 pm : link
I'll go down with the ship.

I don't think he has "lost" any games for the Giants. Pitt was pretty close to it, tho.

Great performances COULD have won GB and Washington games - and pitt.

Realistically, tho, the games we won, we won because of the defense, with Eli and the offense doing just enough to get by, but poorly enough to keep it closer then it should have been.

I understand that there are so many flaws on offense and it is hard to put your finger on 1 thing oor 1 person.

We all scratch out heads and wonder why the "same" offense is playing so much worse this year as opposed to last year. (on paper the OL has more experience and the WR has more talent. Vareen is the only "loss")


My laymens take : 1) Eli is playing worse this year. 2 ) TC influence on personell, gameplanning, and adjustments 3) Macadoo spread too thin to be as effective

Good news - i do believe Eli can turn it around and get hot at any moment (which isn't to say that WILL happen

I think Mac has can improve with experience
Someone was crushing him  
bradshaw44 : 12/6/2016 3:55 pm : link
On Sirius 82 today. Then finished by saying he's a sure fire HOF due to his health and sheer stats over the years. Plus the two super bowl wins.
RE: The  
Britt in VA : 12/6/2016 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13252196 AcidTest said:
Quote:
truth is somewhere between the Eli apologists and this article.

Eli is handicapped by no run game, and a porous OL, including a bad LT. Pugh is out. Richburg gets pushed back. Jerry is average. Hart is improving, but still young. Eli also has no TE that can stretch the seam. Teams are therefore playing their safeties back, so he's frequently throwing against six or seven DBs. Aside from OBJ, who is getting any separation?

But he has been inaccurate, too many of this throws wobble, and he's had a lot of trouble with deep balls. He's also been lucky that more of his passes weren't intercepted, including two against the Bears.

The question is what is causing these problems. It may just be age, and the cumulative negative effect of all the hits he's taken. Or he may be hurt. He took big hits against Washington and Chicago.

My verdict is that Eli isn't the biggest reason, but is a reason, why the offense is moribund. Right now, he can't carry a team like he used to. If that's because of injury, then he may eventually return to his old form, although that might not be until next year. If it's because of age, then the situation isn't likely to improve much, even with an offseason of healing.

The Giants will know in the offseason whether to start looking for Eli's replacement in the draft. The key will be whether they use a day one or two pick on a QB. Nassib, Bomar, Lorenzen, and Woodson were all day three picks. Low cost fliers that if they didn't develop wouldn't cost the team much in terms of picks and salary.


I'm definitely and Eli "apologist" (I prefer fan), but if you just look at what I bolded above and removed Eli from the equation....

Basically, you just said our offense is Eli and OBj and nobody else. I mean, that's basically what you wrote, and it's not untrue. What quarterback in the league could do better in those circumstances?

And, Eli's passes have always wobbled, since day 1.
If you had a perfect quarterback  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/6/2016 4:06 pm : link
I'm not sure how he'd fix the problem with our offense. Few quarterbacks make decisions as quickly as Manning or know how to avoid taking a bad sack in the pocket like Manning.

So how would a perfect quarterback deal with an atrocious and injured offensive line, a non-existent run game, limited formation sets due a non-existent fullback, and a facing a defensive gameplan that dares us to run or throw to a tight end (which we don't have)?
RE: If you had a perfect quarterback  
Britt in VA : 12/6/2016 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13252232 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
I'm not sure how he'd fix the problem with our offense. Few quarterbacks make decisions as quickly as Manning or know how to avoid taking a bad sack in the pocket like Manning.

So how would a perfect quarterback deal with an atrocious and injured offensive line, a non-existent run game, limited formation sets due a non-existent fullback, and a facing a defensive gameplan that dares us to run or throw to a tight end (which we don't have)?


Exactly. I'd argue it's Eli's ability to read the defense pre-snap, as well as quickly post snap, that even keeps us competitive in the first place.

Think of replacing him with just an average QB... What would Sam Bradford, Alex Smith, or any of those guys look like in this offense right now. Just try to imagine that for a second.
sometimes I wonder if Eli  
AnnapolisMike : 12/6/2016 4:14 pm : link
is hindering the Giants by always changing plays at the LOS. And his preference for the shotgun is probably not helping our running game much.

Who knows...maybe the Giants will spank the Cowboys and all will be well again.
maybe we will see the SOS  
mdc1 : 12/6/2016 4:18 pm : link
again this week on a different day for offense. Not much has changed likely suggesting that it may not. Maybe coaching ideas are necessary now. Our defense has a big task in front of them this weekend.
Paralsis by Analysis  
JOrthman : 12/6/2016 4:28 pm : link
I was on BBI five years before Eli arrived and I don't ever recall the amount of threads we have discussing the QB in those five years.
RE: Paralsis by Analysis  
RobCarpenter : 12/6/2016 4:34 pm : link
In comment 13252273 JOrthman said:
Quote:
I was on BBI five years before Eli arrived and I don't ever recall the amount of threads we have discussing the QB in those five years.


I seem to recall some consternation about Kerry Collins, especially after the SB.
RE: RE: Paralsis by Analysis  
JOrthman : 12/6/2016 4:43 pm : link
In comment 13252284 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 13252273 JOrthman said:


Quote:


I was on BBI five years before Eli arrived and I don't ever recall the amount of threads we have discussing the QB in those five years.



I seem to recall some consternation about Kerry Collins, especially after the SB.


Oh I'm sure there were some threads, he is after all the QB, but nothing like the Eli threads. At any given time he may be half the threads on the front page.
quick decision  
dancing blue bear : 12/6/2016 4:49 pm : link
and his ability to read the defense pre- and post snap are still a strength. and getting the O into the right play is huge Def. a reason the offense is functioning at all.

but his passes have been particularly inaccurate this year. I think, for whatever reason - he was more accurate last year.

I don't think he is costing us games -per se. But he is not lifting the offense like we have seen in the past, and that is what we need to finish strong possibly and make some noise in the post season.

The offense is basically the same as last year - and on paper should be better,

RE: People see what they want to see....  
BillKo : 12/6/2016 4:51 pm : link
In comment 13252180 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
nobody can tell them otherwise.


It's really like politics I'm learning, as I get more and more interested in the political landscape.

Eli Manning may not be a HOF QB, but he is a franchise QB who has won two SB's, and plays the toughest position in sports in the toughest city. And does it with class.

What more can you really ask?
RE: If you had a perfect quarterback  
BillKo : 12/6/2016 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13252232 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
I'm not sure how he'd fix the problem with our offense. Few quarterbacks make decisions as quickly as Manning or know how to avoid taking a bad sack in the pocket like Manning.

So how would a perfect quarterback deal with an atrocious and injured offensive line, a non-existent run game, limited formation sets due a non-existent fullback, and a facing a defensive gameplan that dares us to run or throw to a tight end (which we don't have)?


I'd agree with everything there, except calling the line atrocious. Below average.....which Manning surely makes up for.
I had a feeling this was going to happen when Eli got older  
Mike in Long Beach : 12/6/2016 4:55 pm : link
Yes, he's showing some signs of his age. I consider myself more of an apologist than a critic of Eli (though I try to stay-even handed) but you can't doubt his deep ball isn't what it once was, and you can't argue much that he's hit receivers with the same precision that he once did. Those great back-shoulder throws aren't there, either.

But he's still championship caliber IMO. He does what needs to be done. He isn't deserving of people jumping ship on him the way they have this year.

He's on pace for 63.1%. 4,129 yards, 29 TDs, 16 INTs.

We can do a hell of a lot worse.
If Peyton was never born,  
Doomster : 12/6/2016 4:56 pm : link
Eli would be looked at differently.....he is always going to be compared to his big brother....

Fact is, Eli has not been Eli, since that 49'er game in the 2012 season......

You have Eli running a west coast offense, where his accuracy with short passes is not the greatest.....how many passes do you see guys dive for balls or reach back or jump up? When that happens, if gives the defender time to catch the receiver, and there is no YAC.....on many of those passes if hit in stride there would be.....

I watch Eli stare down receivers, making it easy for the defense......rarely do you see a pump fake....

He has too many int's in the end zone.....You have to be smarter than that......on fourth down, you take a chance....any other down, you throw it away if it is not there......too many times we have walked away with no points....

Many on this board, remember the Eli of 2011.....all those comebacks.......but that Eli does not exist anymore......he is not the same guy.....you put 2016 Eli on that 2011 team, and we do not win the SB....hell, we might not make the playoffs....

You put him behind a good OL, give him a running game, a TE, and a trio of wr's, and he will look awesome....but all 2016 Eli has is OBj......
I really see no change in Eli....  
BillKo : 12/6/2016 5:04 pm : link
other than the talent around him.

Still moves in the pocket well, arm strength is nearly the same......still smart.

But the pre 2011 Eli also threw picks...and did crazy stuff (left handed throws, etc). That's just his game.....I almost want to call him a "poor man's Brett Favre" because he doesn't look the part. And yeah, being the younger brother will always hurt him.

I've always said, don't neglect putting players around him because he will always be a QB who needs help. But if you give it to him, he can light it up and also win the close/big ones.

RE: BTW  
djstat : 12/6/2016 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13252158 MarylandPete said:
Quote:
BTW- to me Eli had never been an elite QB. Just a guy who somehow knows how to win.
How many Super Bowls have the Redskins won since George H W Bush was President? Oh right...NONE. The post should worry about their own franchise.
I think we all want PFF  
Essex : 12/6/2016 5:11 pm : link
to be right as a concept. After all, they focus on every player and it make our jobs as fans easier. After all, do,we have the time to grade every player by watching them on every play? But the one player I watch every game on every play is the qb, and PFF's ratings of QBs is beyond awful. If they can't get anywhere near an accurate grade on a qb, what makes me think they will get it right at other positions that I focus less on.

Anyway, Eli isn't our problem and these idiot pundits who know nothing just say whatever they want. Today Ed Werder of ESPN said he talked to an NFL coordinator and said that the only two dominant players we have on defense is JPP and Collins. How his source picks up a paycheck signed by an NFL team is nuts. Vernon has been so dominant in the last five games I don't even know what to say and that is forgetting Snacks and Jenkins who have played quite well.
PaulBlakeTSU  
IIT : 12/6/2016 5:17 pm : link
Owned the head of the nail at 4:06 pm
The "almost interceptions"  
widmerseyebrow : 12/6/2016 5:19 pm : link
Lots of Giants fans and non-fans love to keep count of those. Do other quarterbacks not have those?
I guess it's an attractive premise to generate clicks.  
BigBlue in Keys : 12/6/2016 5:48 pm : link
But if you watch this team and think the QB is the main problem, I don't think you understand the game beyond reading stats.

You don't get the same paper sales and clicks if you were to write an article critizing our 2nd and 3rd string linemen.
Only a handful of QBs capable of playoff runs  
Frank from CA : 12/6/2016 5:54 pm : link
They do not come in bunches. You build your team around one of the franchise QBs available. The Giants have one who is not perfect, but, I am thankful he is our guy. Its up to the coaches to get this offense in a better place by play selection and scheme adjustments. Eli has to follow through and execute. Nobody in college is even projected to play at Eli's level! Lets get the line re-built and re-committed in the off season for his few remaining seasons with Big Blue. There are a ton of bad to mediocre QBs in the NL. He isn't one of them.
A pure pocket QB is not suited  
silverfox : 12/6/2016 6:21 pm : link
...to a lousy OL. Eli is as much a liability as an asset at this point. Let's face it, everytmd he goes back to pass, we all hold our breath.
RE: BTW  
Blue21 : 12/6/2016 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13252158 MarylandPete said:
Quote:
BTW- to me Eli had never been an elite QB. Just a guy who somehow knows how to win.


I've always felt this way. Top 10 and a franchise QB but not elite. Very few are elite.
RE: RE: BTW  
JOrthman : 12/6/2016 7:18 pm : link
In comment 13252330 djstat said:
Quote:
In comment 13252158 MarylandPete said:


Quote:


BTW- to me Eli had never been an elite QB. Just a guy who somehow knows how to win.

How many Super Bowls have the Redskins won since George H W Bush was President? Oh right...NONE. The post should worry about their own franchise.


I also find it odd that a paper covering a team with Cousins as the QB, would be so critical of Eli.
The thing with Eli is this  
Jim in Fairfax : 12/6/2016 8:12 pm : link
When he has time in the pocket, he can be as deadly as any QB in the leauge. But when he doesn't get time, he's not very good. Obviously all QBs are better when they get good protection. But some QBs minimize mistakes and even make a few big plays in the face of a big pass rush.

Despite the porous line this year, only Derek Carr has been sacked fewer times among regular starters. Eli is also in the top 10 all-time in fewest sacks per passing play. This despite a number of years with less than elite protection.

When he gets rushed, he's not going to hold the ball that extra half second to make sure the receiver is really open. To make sure the guy has cleared underneath coverage. He gets rid of the ball to avoid the big hit, often throwing off his back foot.

Some have praised Eli over the years courage in the pocket, pointing out big hits he took making big plays in the 2007 and 2011 runs. And that's very true: he has stood in and taken the hits: during big playoff moments. But during the season, he does not do that often. It's kept him healthy all these years, obviously a big plus. But he's also laid some eggs in a number of games because of it.
sadly if this org  
mdc1 : 12/6/2016 8:41 pm : link
does not right this oline we better start seriously thinking about mobile QBs in the draft that can create more space for our receivers. Eli is a high-paid statue in this current arrangement.
RE: sadly if this org  
shelovesnycsports : 12/6/2016 9:20 pm : link
In comment 13252571 mdc1 said:
Quote:
does not right this oline we better start seriously thinking about mobile QBs in the draft that can create more space for our receivers. Eli is a high-paid statue in this current arrangement.


Those mobile Quarterbacks in the draft can't read a defense which is what this offense is base on? It takes time and experience do you want to win 2 games next year?
Or he may be hurt. He took big hits against Washington and Chicago.  
shelovesnycsports : 12/6/2016 9:22 pm : link
and Pittsburgh. I don't think Eli alone can beat Dallas this week this will have to be a game the Defense takes over.
RE: Or he may be hurt. He took big hits against Washington and Chicago.  
Joey in VA : 12/6/2016 10:05 pm : link
In comment 13252622 shelovesnycsports said:
Quote:
and Pittsburgh. I don't think Eli alone can beat Dallas this week this will have to be a game the Defense takes over.
I'm leaning this way too, he's got something wrong with him, his passes have lost some zip and his footwork has been inconsistent. His mechanics need to be on for him to be accurate or it has to be a critical Super Bowl moment in which case he whips it out there and it lands somewhere favorable.
Enough of this shit. Compare to 2011:  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 12/6/2016 10:28 pm : link
WR1: much better now but Nicks was a playmaker
WR2: 2011 Cruz vs SS
WR3: 2011 MM vs 2016 Cruz
TE: Ballard and co vs Tye, Donnell, and Adams
OL: both terrible run blockers but 2011 could effectively block in gilbrides downfield scheme
RB: AB/BJ vs Jennings and Perkins
I'm blanking but we had a fullback

Eli not elevating like 2011? He had a better offense across the board outside of OBJ

An argument can be made the pass protection or scheme is affecting his confidence but Eli is still the same Eli imo
RE: If Peyton was never born,  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 12/6/2016 10:38 pm : link
In comment 13252319 Doomster said:
Quote:
Eli would be looked at differently.....he is always going to be compared to his big brother....

Fact is, Eli has not been Eli, since that 49'er game in the 2012 season......

What? This ignores the last two seasons where he played at a high level without a defense. The offense is very different but was efficient the last two years.

Quote:

Many on this board, remember the Eli of 2011.....all those comebacks.......but that Eli does not exist anymore......he is not the same guy.....you put 2016 Eli on that 2011 team, and we do not win the SB....hell, we might not make the playoffs....

You put him behind a good OL, give him a running game, a TE, and a trio of wr's, and he will look awesome....but all 2016 Eli has is OBj......


These two paragraphs are contradictory. Unless by Eli you mean the Giants offense as a whole. 2011 Eli doesn't exist anymore but give him everything he had in 2011 except for a running game which came on and in the playoffs and he's awesome? So he's pretty much then same guy then by that logic
I don't care about how they grade  
oldutican : 12/6/2016 10:49 pm : link
Their analysis says he is less accurate. That is a concern that can't just be shrugged off to poor support. He has to make plays or the offense stalls. Eli isn't playing well enough.
RE: Actually..  
chris r : 12/6/2016 10:52 pm : link
In comment 13252178 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there is a lot wrong with that article.

To have the premise that Eli is seriously endangering the Giant's playoff hopes you'd have to prove that there is a replacement that would not damage the hopes.

Damn tough to do with the OL the way it is and not having a running game. The article makes it sound like Eli is the reason the offense is bad.


Lol at the impossible standard for acceptable criticism of Eli.
Eli is not THE problem...  
EricJ : 12/6/2016 11:08 pm : link
We know the problem is the O-line and the TE position. Eli is just not a QB that can easily overcome those deficiencies. Although all QBs need to feel comfortable in the pocket, he seems to get spooked a bit more than others. He starts to make poor throws and bad decisions. You would think that our GM would know this and as a result would make sure the O-line is solidified.

There is no other QB out there (available) who is even anywhere close to being as good as Eli right now.
RE: The  
SHO'NUFF : 12/7/2016 2:59 am : link
In comment 13252348 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
Lots of Giants fans and non-fans love to keep count of those. Do other quarterbacks not have those?


Forget "almost INTs"...Eli Manning has the been the victim of the strangest, most unbelievable INTs known to football.
The article makes a mistake at the end  
NINEster : 12/7/2016 8:02 am : link
"[Mannning] is a bigger liability than any other quarterback of a contending team in the NFC right now"...

At the very least it needs to put Russell Wilson as the biggest liability of NFC contenders.

If Manning threw 0 TDs over 3 games and then laid a stinker in Tampa, his own family would be staging an intervention.
Really?  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/7/2016 8:15 am : link
Quote:
Lol at the impossible standard for acceptable criticism of Eli.


Are you really that much of a douche to take that away from my response?

Actually - you are, but it astounds me you continue to show it time and again.
RE: BTW  
gmenatlarge : 12/7/2016 9:11 am : link
In comment 13252158 MarylandPete said:
Quote:
BTW- to me Eli had never been an elite QB. Just a guy who somehow knows how to win.

Stop it! I bet you weren't saying that in 2007 or 2011 where he carried the team through the playoffs!
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