Playcalling? Perhaps. Better OL? Perhaps. Answer might be as

I'm thrilled to be 8-4. The O has produced just enough and the D has come up huge..But one of the MAIN reasons Dallas' D (which I don't believe is as good as ours), is functioning so well, is that their O, which doesn't shoot themselves in the foot all that often, keeps that D extremely fresh..

Execution

you know what John McKay said.

Giants don't execute to a level needed to be. The O isn't that good as proven. Sorry it's not going to change until changes are made with additions in off season.

It's ashame, as for most part, the offense has wasted the good efforts of this defense esp vs good teams

is about as good as they can do.

Sometimes a little better...sometimes a little worse, but on average maybe this is the performance level of those collective players.

I know you may not want to believe that...

To talent

In comment 13254429 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

Execution

Public execution? Who will it be?

sooner or later the players need to do their jobs better. Everyone wants to pass blame on our GM, HC, position coaches, etc and i'm sure they can get more creative as well, but these players are paid to do their jobs and right now a bunch of them aren't earning their paychecks.

There's a bunch of factors as to why our offense looks stagnant, but we aren't trotting out 11 rookies, these guys need to step up.

A. I'm all for it.

I believe that quote was from John Robinson when he coached Tampa.

that the execution is bad because the players aren't very good? Sure, better execution would get a better outcome, but are the players on offense not named Odell and Eli capable of better execution? That, sir, is the question.

Yes execution matters. When you don't have the talent, your margin for error becomes extremely small. No team executes 100% of the time. If you can run the ball and pass protect, it's okay to miss occasional throws. When you can't run the ball and can't pass protect, and you miss your opportunities, it costs you.

Eli doesn't throw a bad ball on the first endzone pick
Mac goes for three early in the fourth

All of those are executed properly and the Steelers game is a very different game.

Of course talent is important. The OL woes have been discussed plenty. Unsportsmanlike conduct, stupid, inopportune penalties and errors BY THE TALENTED (Eli, OBJ, et al) are what has killed us on O and has little to do with the lack of talent PER SE..It's about focus, concentration and smarts, imv

Execution. It's more than a dropped pass or two. I think about this a lot during games. What makes one 300 pound offensive lineman push a 300 pound defensive lineman out of the way for a couple of seconds to allow a running back to break through? On the other side, what makes a 300 pound defensive lineman stand his ground against a 300 pound offensive lineman pushing as hard as he can?

For arguments sake, they are all good athletes (some a bit better than others) but who wins that battle over and over again? The Giants, for example, gain little in the run game due to a lack of holes being opened. Some of the defensive linemen we've played agains were rookies or underrated players, not superstars. So why don't we win those battle?

My opinion: It's desire. The other guy wants it more. They get lower and come up harder. I know they are all trained in how to do it. And believe me, I am not happy to think that way.

In comment 13254539 Still a Sam Huff fan said:

Quote:

Execution. It's more than a dropped pass or two. I think about this a lot during games. What makes one 300 pound offensive lineman push a 300 pound defensive lineman out of the way for a couple of seconds to allow a running back to break through? On the other side, what makes a 300 pound defensive lineman stand his ground against a 300 pound offensive lineman pushing as hard as he can? For arguments sake, they are all good athletes (some a bit better than others) but who wins that battle over and over again? The Giants, for example, gain little in the run game due to a lack of holes being opened. Some of the defensive linemen we've played agains were rookies or underrated players, not superstars. So why don't we win those battle? My opinion: It's desire. The other guy wants it more. They get lower and come up harder. I know they are all trained in how to do it. And believe me, I am not happy to think that way.

Absolutely a factor as well..

In comment 13254473 Gman11 said:

Quote:

A. I'm all for it. I believe that quote was from John Robinson when he coached Tampa.

John McKay

Belief. Confidence. Feeling every time you line up to run a play it will succeed. Believing in the system and the players around you.

Or the alternative, what is now happening, lining up and thinking "this play never works"...and it fails. Believing in the press you keep hearing here on BBI and everywhere else.... "This offense sucks."

What they need is to get on a little roll and gain some confidence. I sure hope it happens.

In comment 13254583 jsuds said:

Quote:

Belief. Confidence. Feeling every time you line up to run a play it will succeed. Believing in the system and the players around you. Or the alternative, what is now happening, lining up and thinking "this play never works"...and it fails. Believing in the press you keep hearing here on BBI and everywhere else.... "This offense sucks." What they need is to get on a little roll and gain some confidence. I sure hope it happens.

If Pugh comes back this week, that could greatly help EF's psyche(whatever that is) and have a domino effect up and down the line. That could be the added juice you state or imply perhaps?

Sunday night. Let's see what might happen if we minimize the stupid penalties and actually hold on to a key pass or complete that pass to a wide open receiver..Of course if Vereen comes back, that could really help

Execution is definately part of the problem. On a few of the big plays in the Steelers game we could see that fairly easily, the pick by Eli there was the bad throw but also a missed block off the line, there was pressure which moved Eli off his reads and out of the pocket, the Flowers penalty. So, yes, execution matters. However, if a team is consistently failing to execute then the problem probably also goes to coaching and talent.

Think about Flowers, we know he's being coached in proper technique but for whatever reason, he isn't always executing proper technique. That could be the coach is failing to communicate or it could be Flowers isn't able to learn properly or it could be a little of both. Talent matters too, if Flowers isn't quick enough to get his feet right then he gets beat and then he panics and resorts to poor technique. Not much a coach can do there, but to move Flowers to position he's better suited to play.

Coughlin left, and McAdoo comes in talking about a focus on fundamentals. This is the extra time that coaches spend teaching players things like foot, hand, body positioning, etc. This is the type of player development that Richburg said they didn't get much of under Coughlin because they were limited on time. McAdoo was going to increase the amount of time spent investing in this stuff and the young players should benefit and develop more because of it. I think to myself - focusing on fundamentals is a good way to develop young talent - helps them realize what they need to work on to improve overall.

Having said that - as practice time is limited, focusing on fundamentals comes at the expense of other types of practice/focii. For example, focusing on play execution.

This type of practice involves running reps and discussing/correcting assignments related to play. More of the correction goes to the players getting the snaps. It is more likely to improve execution of play assignments, at the expense of developing raw talent.

So I guess I just want to say that I'm not surprised at the sloppy execution of the team right now, and there isn't a lot out there that suggests that things are going to change. We should see players develop, and eventually get to the point where the focus becomes on execution instead of fundamentals. Not sure when that will happen, but hasn't really been mentioned yet.

I think last game was an exception however. ToP is a misleading stat.....their defense gets credit for limiting ToP as well, but IMO, it's the offense that keeps the other team off the field. We need to sustain drives and convert better on third downs. Saying that, we do need to do a better job in the running game and on 1st and 2nd down to make 3rd more manageable. How do teams like the Patriots make 3rd down look so easy? With us it's often an adventure.

In comment 13254429 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

I'm thrilled to be 8-4. The O has produced just enough and the D has come up huge..But one of the MAIN reasons Dallas' D (which I don't believe is as good as ours), is functioning so well, is that their O, which doesn't shoot themselves in the foot all that often, keeps that D extremely fresh.. Execution

its been the same sputtering offense since the 1st pre season game

In comment 13255140 Paulie Walnuts said:

Quote:

In comment 13254429 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: I'm thrilled to be 8-4. The O has produced just enough and the D has come up huge..But one of the MAIN reasons Dallas' D (which I don't believe is as good as ours), is functioning so well, is that their O, which doesn't shoot themselves in the foot all that often, keeps that D extremely fresh.. Execution its been the same sputtering offense since the 1st pre season game

You can NEVER compare (or shouldn't) a Pre-season vanilla, evaluating a thousand guys mindset, lack of reps, with how they are playing now..There is nothing to see then, given the limited minutes played in pre-season..

Sputtering in the pre-season on O or D has ZERO bearing on whether we sputter, on O or D, during the season..It may have worked out that way in terms of APPEARANCE, but it's apples and oranges. I mean come on, there's a 50% chance that the appearance will look similar(they either sputter or they don't) to pre-season, but that's ALL it is, appearance..

there are specific reasons for that:

1. Our OL gives Eli little time to get rid of the ball, and he is therefore feeling the need to make decisions quickly, which leads to more mistakes, including not setting his feet and making poor throws;
2. That also leads to more short passing;
3. Our OL can't open holes in the running game, which puts added pressure on Eli;
4. Cruz is no longer a receiver who can get open when playing on the outside. Even the long passes he's caught have come on perfectly placed throws, with DBs right on top of him;
5. Our TEs are very ordinary, so we have less ability to make quick throws over the middle;
6. The play-calling and formations have been unimaginative and predictable.
7. Jennings has lost whatever burst he once had.
8. Flowers is just not an adequate LT at this point in his development, and his penalties often kill us.

It seems to me that this goes far beyond execution or desire, but to the talent level of the players and the offensive philosophy demonstrated this year.

In comment 13254539 Still a Sam Huff fan said:

Quote:

Execution. It's more than a dropped pass or two. I think about this a lot during games. What makes one 300 pound offensive lineman push a 300 pound defensive lineman out of the way for a couple of seconds to allow a running back to break through? On the other side, what makes a 300 pound defensive lineman stand his ground against a 300 pound offensive lineman pushing as hard as he can? For arguments sake, they are all good athletes (some a bit better than others) but who wins that battle over and over again? The Giants, for example, gain little in the run game due to a lack of holes being opened. Some of the defensive linemen we've played agains were rookies or underrated players, not superstars. So why don't we win those battle? My opinion: It's desire. The other guy wants it more. They get lower and come up harder. I know they are all trained in how to do it. And believe me, I am not happy to think that way.

I think Desire is a part of it and I think many things can feed or hinder desire such as:
1. Coaching
2. Belief in the team
3. Belief in ones self
4. Camaraderie between the players
5. Immediate physical condition
6. Immediate mental condition

but all that you have listed does not address the key drops and passes over thrown when the receivers were wide open and he actually had time..

It doesn't address the key penalty gaffes at critical times during games..

It doesn't address the stupidity of prolonging drives because of unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct actions..

That's discipline, smarts, focus, awareness and concentration.

.

In comment 13255383 nicky43 said:

Quote:

In comment 13254539 Still a Sam Huff fan said: Quote: Execution. It's more than a dropped pass or two. I think about this a lot during games. What makes one 300 pound offensive lineman push a 300 pound defensive lineman out of the way for a couple of seconds to allow a running back to break through? On the other side, what makes a 300 pound defensive lineman stand his ground against a 300 pound offensive lineman pushing as hard as he can? For arguments sake, they are all good athletes (some a bit better than others) but who wins that battle over and over again? The Giants, for example, gain little in the run game due to a lack of holes being opened. Some of the defensive linemen we've played agains were rookies or underrated players, not superstars. So why don't we win those battle? My opinion: It's desire. The other guy wants it more. They get lower and come up harder. I know they are all trained in how to do it. And believe me, I am not happy to think that way. I think Desire is a part of it and I think many things can feed or hinder desire such as: 1. Coaching 2. Belief in the team 3. Belief in ones self 4. Camaraderie between the players 5. Immediate physical condition 6. Immediate mental condition

No doubt

has left meat on the bone, so to speak. IT's unfair, lazy and convenient to put all the blame on the OL. The RBs, WRs, TEs and QB all share the blame. The OL needs work. So does the entire offense right now. Fix it or this season goes from good to bad in no time. Don't fix it next year fucking fix it now.

In comment 13255395 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

but all that you have listed does not address the key drops and passes over thrown when the receivers were wide open and he actually had time.. It doesn't address the key penalty gaffes at critical times during games.. It doesn't address the stupidity of prolonging drives because of unnecessary roughness or unsportsmanlike conduct actions.. That's discipline, smarts, focus, awareness and concentration.

Good points. But I think that many of those are directly attributable to talent. Teams look to expose areas of weakness, and top players often are particularly effective in critical situations when matched up against an inferior opponent.

For example, when I saw Harrison lined up opposite Flowers early on, I expected a long afternoon for our guys. Even at this stage of his career Harrison can give a guy with Flowers' poor technique fits -- and he did.

And, imo, Eli is getting gun-shy, and because of that he is regressing and showing evidence of the poor throwing technique that we saw earlier in his career, such as not setting his feet whether he has time or not -- just bad habits creeping back in. That happened on that awful 3rd down throw to Tye.

And I agree that drops often come from concentration lapses, but the ability to concentrate on a consistent basis is also a skill that some players have and some don't.

As for discipline problems, I agree that you'd think that a player could control himself enough to avoid these. But if that were so, we wouldn't see certain players (e.g., Norman Lewan) consistently have problems doing so. So emotional makeup is also an area where "talent evaluation" is a key factor, and where the results are seen in selfish and impulsive actions that hurt their team.

In comment 13255439 djm said:

Quote:

has left meat on the bone, so to speak. IT's unfair, lazy and convenient to put all the blame on the OL. The RBs, WRs, TEs and QB all share the blame. The OL needs work. So does the entire offense right now. Fix it or this season goes from good to bad in no time. Don't fix it next year fucking fix it now.

Agree, the OL is certainly not deserving of all of the blame, because again, when they've done their job, the so-called 'players' on O haven't..It is a team thing..There are certainly other teams who have OL problems that have mitigate that by playing smart, focused football..If one or more parts of your talent base is failing to produce at a higher level, you CANNOT COMPOUND THAT with drive-killing, TD-killing penalties..

for error, even smaller..That's what this fan is seeing

Really good post. You coming in to see me soon?

and been done with it.

We all know the blocking breaks down without labeling it "execution". It's the same thing.

In comment 13255800 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

and been done with it. We all know the blocking breaks down without labeling it "execution". It's the same thing.

It's not the same thing..It's obvious you read very little if any of this thread, because the "OL woes is all I need to know."

seem to overcome it a lot more than they don't.

Trying to recall stupid undisciplined actions in the 4 losses that they couldn't overcome or if it really was a root cause for the loss:

Redskin game - dumbness was clearly the root cause of loss with issues from Richburg and Adams being egregious. Lots of penalties.

Vikings game - We lost this game because we turned the ball over and they didn't, and they moved it more on Offense than we did. Some OBJ dramatics but not enough to be root cause.

Green Bay game - Offensive line was biggest issue, committing penalties and sacks. Overmatched but not sure stupidity was the problem.

Steelers game - Again, out played by opponent and lack of offense moving ball. But undisciplined dumb play was not root cause.

my thoughts...

that can not only pass block but can move a pile a real roadgrader. if we miss again this year then yes its time to get a new GM

McAdoo said it earlier in the week - you gotta get more 2 on 1s blocking. The TEs and backs aren't helping at all.

When Vareen gets back we're getting a big boost in that department.

We start improving a little upfront, you'll see it open up down field.

Under talent. I don't know why you'd make them separate things.
Talent isn't just physical ability. It's the sum of body and mind and how the two are applied.

You'd like to be able to execute at-will, but that isn't reality at this level of competition.. The Giants as presently built have no room for mistakes, so every opportunity for a play is magnified in importance. "If they just executed better" is an oversimplification. Nobody in their right mind would think Eli wants to miss these throws or open receivers, or that flowers wants to become a punchline.

If you ask me, it's not execution that should be the question. It's 'are we putting players in the best position to succeed?'. And for Flowers, I simply don't know if we are. He wants to be good IMO. But he is also out of place, and this is becoming obvious.

In comment 13255925 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

seem to overcome it a lot more than they don't. Trying to recall stupid undisciplined actions in the 4 losses that they couldn't overcome or if it really was a root cause for the loss: Redskin game - dumbness was clearly the root cause of loss with issues from Richburg and Adams being egregious. Lots of penalties. Vikings game - We lost this game because we turned the ball over and they didn't, and they moved it more on Offense than we did. Some OBJ dramatics but not enough to be root cause. Green Bay game - Offensive line was biggest issue, committing penalties and sacks. Overmatched but not sure stupidity was the problem. Steelers game - Again, out played by opponent and lack of offense moving ball. But undisciplined dumb play was not root cause. my thoughts...

I'm not only referring to losses. The lament on here is that most of our games are close and it's because the O isn't performing..I have already stated that it's IN ADDITION TO the OL stuff, etc..I'm saying that if we didn't do the things I discussed above, a bunch of our games would not have been nearly as close as they've been, imv..If so, people on here (the non-trolls) would not be bitterly complaining in almost every thread about HOW MUCH the O sucks, imv..

Richburg, Adams, OBJ et al have committed penalties that either killed us, or kept other teams in games they had little business being in, imo..That's just plain stupid, hot-headedness that has little place on a contending team..Teams who rein it in are teams who are reasonably consistent, who don't commit drive-killing, TD-killing penalties that keep opponents alive..With the OL problems we have, we can't afford to play stupid football..It holds back progress, imo..I believe stupidity and talent do NOT go hand in hand, generally speaking..

the Chiefs have little business being we're they are talent-wise, imo..They don't shoot themselves in the foot to kill drives, momentum, etc., all that often..Instead, they take advantage of the stupidity of other teams..I'm not referring to fumbles by the opponent or INTs per se, that shit happens to everyone..

most of the points made here are extremely valid, imv. I just off an additional slant..

In comment 13256242 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13255925 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: seem to overcome it a lot more than they don't. Trying to recall stupid undisciplined actions in the 4 losses that they couldn't overcome or if it really was a root cause for the loss: Redskin game - dumbness was clearly the root cause of loss with issues from Richburg and Adams being egregious. Lots of penalties. Vikings game - We lost this game because we turned the ball over and they didn't, and they moved it more on Offense than we did. Some OBJ dramatics but not enough to be root cause. Green Bay game - Offensive line was biggest issue, committing penalties and sacks. Overmatched but not sure stupidity was the problem. Steelers game - Again, out played by opponent and lack of offense moving ball. But undisciplined dumb play was not root cause. my thoughts... I'm not only referring to losses. The lament on here is that most of our games are close and it's because the O isn't performing..I have already stated that it's IN ADDITION TO the OL stuff, etc..I'm saying that if we didn't do the things I discussed above, a bunch of our games would not have been nearly as close as they've been, imv..If so, people on here (the non-trolls) would not be bitterly complaining in almost every thread about HOW MUCH the O sucks, imv..

Is lamenting to close games that we win worth this much introspection? Same flaws likely exist in games you win versus lose, just not as pronounced...

...the guy/guys lining up across from you are better football players. This applies to our offensive line in particular.

Now some of these guys are still very young with limited experience to draw on...particularly Richburg and Flowers. But as they are gaining experience I'm not seeing the improvement I expected to this point. They may just be what we've seen to date.

In Flowers case a physical player with many technical flaws and just ok feet who may be better suited for a different position. Richburg may just be the underpowered pivot many pundits had him tagged as entering the draft.

The jury is still out but the evidence is mounting...

In comment 13256282 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 13256242 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13255925 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: seem to overcome it a lot more than they don't. Trying to recall stupid undisciplined actions in the 4 losses that they couldn't overcome or if it really was a root cause for the loss: Redskin game - dumbness was clearly the root cause of loss with issues from Richburg and Adams being egregious. Lots of penalties. Vikings game - We lost this game because we turned the ball over and they didn't, and they moved it more on Offense than we did. Some OBJ dramatics but not enough to be root cause. Green Bay game - Offensive line was biggest issue, committing penalties and sacks. Overmatched but not sure stupidity was the problem. Steelers game - Again, out played by opponent and lack of offense moving ball. But undisciplined dumb play was not root cause. my thoughts... I'm not only referring to losses. The lament on here is that most of our games are close and it's because the O isn't performing..I have already stated that it's IN ADDITION TO the OL stuff, etc..I'm saying that if we didn't do the things I discussed above, a bunch of our games would not have been nearly as close as they've been, imv..If so, people on here (the non-trolls) would not be bitterly complaining in almost every thread about HOW MUCH the O sucks, imv.. Is lamenting to close games that we win worth this much introspection? Same flaws likely exist in games you win versus lose, just not as pronounced...

Of course NOT. But, when you're inundated by OL, OL, OL EVERY DAY like the 6:27 post(he's far from alone), it's tiring. There are OTHER factors, I simply offered another perspective, nothing more

worst part of this team. People can debate others but it wouldn't detract OL from the conversation.

So the huge volume of comments make sense even if you don't like the proportion.

executing at a higher level than they are, it seems they are just missing that last 10% in executing a play, cutting out those stupid false starts would help too..

We keep using Will Tye as an h-back, he's more of a Y or move TE and not an inline blocker. We also despite David Diehl's opinion have a terd in John Jerry who just can't run block at all. We need a wide body who can move people out inside and we don't have it, period. There is no mystery, formula or scheme to cover up for poor blocking, none. If you can't block you can't win, that's it.

I watch him run block and feel small inside for even entertaining the very notion that Jerry is good. He's a decent pass blocker and every now n then he actually gets out in space to lay a block but he's the shittiest run blocker ever.