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Shaun O'Hara yesterday regarding JPP and non contact injury

bigblue1124 : 12/8/2016 9:18 am
He was on NFL network yesterday morning and was talking about JPP and his non contact injury and surgery. And said in his opinion it was due to fatigue and playing too many snaps?

I at first thought HUH? So this morning for shits and giggles decided to look up how much playing time he has had and was honestly shocked at what I found.

Attached is the link to the site I found for the numbers if interested in checking it out.

JPP & OV lead the league at DE in game snaps OV 809 JPP 792 the next two players after them are Mack 731 and Jordon 728 that’s more or less 2 games more played than any other DE in the league.

I also looked into overall playtime both Collins & Jack Rabbit lead the entire league not just by position Collins 866 Jenkins 852.

I am curious what your thoughts are on this, are they being overplayed? I realize the main reason for this is due to the fact our offense can’t stay on the field. But with that said in the past Spags has always used a keep them fresh approach funneling players in some sort of rotation. That obviously is not the same approach he is taking this season.
I am curious what you’re thoughts are on this are these guys getting worn out?

Link - ( New Window )
We are 31st in time of possession on offense  
Giantology : 12/8/2016 9:22 am : link
We turn the ball over too much, so our defense is on the field too long. JPP and Vernon are getting paid to play the majority of snaps, but our offense is forcing them onto the field too much and the depth behind them are a big drop off
I pulled a groin out  
section125 : 12/8/2016 9:22 am : link
doing a jog.
IDK, could be that the knee injury had more to do with it than fatigue. Could be a combo of both - most likely. Once part of his lower body was compromised, the rest was weakened.
SO is an idiot, from the time he went to the NFLPA  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 9:22 am : link
and ratted on TC and his discipline stuff until now..Appreciate his contribution here on the field. Sure fatigue can cause injury, but a groin tear? These areas should be stronger not weaker given the amount of physical use. Now if it was a contact injury, that's a whole new ballgame
Its no secret that this team  
gmen9892 : 12/8/2016 9:24 am : link
Lacks depth at pretty much all spots. They have been relatively healthy for most of the year, but if just one of the starters goes down, its a problem for this team.

Its one of the reasons why I truly believe that 2017 is really the time where this team can be a true contender. This years team is really a pleasant surprise and a building block for next year.

In the end, was JPP playing too many snaps? Heck yes. But the team had no other choice. The silver lining here is that we get to see what OO and Okwara can do with more snaps to see if they can be viable options for going into next year or if they will need to add more talent to the DE position.
May well be part of it  
old man : 12/8/2016 9:27 am : link
But upon an initial view it simply looked like his right ankle got inside the RT right ankle then banged ankles just a little, and by the time he got that leg around it(a millisecond)and planted the right foot , rip!
The right semi-awkward move at the right? time. Awkwardness reminded me of Osi's preseason knee injury against the JETS.
Doctor on WFAN was explaining this is a wear and tear injury  
giant24 : 12/8/2016 9:34 am : link
said very common for DE's because of the way they explode from a three point stance that the muscles between the abdomen and hip flexor becomes weak and results in sports hernia over time. Said that to the athlete it feels like groin pain but its actually a hernia (weakening of wall in abdomen) and that usually the athlete has discomfort for a while before it finally gives but they treat it just as a groin pull and do stretching to deal with.

Said Clowney had same injury a couple years ago when the doc was with the texans and he practiced 6 weeks after the surgery.
RE: Doctor on WFAN was explaining this is a wear and tear injury  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 9:38 am : link
In comment 13254550 giant24 said:
Quote:
said very common for DE's because of the way they explode from a three point stance that the muscles between the abdomen and hip flexor becomes weak and results in sports hernia over time. Said that to the athlete it feels like groin pain but its actually a hernia (weakening of wall in abdomen) and that usually the athlete has discomfort for a while before it finally gives but they treat it just as a groin pull and do stretching to deal with.

Said Clowney had same injury a couple years ago when the doc was with the texans and he practiced 6 weeks after the surgery.


That's an explanation that makes sense..If he had this going on for awhile, did they MRI it or just stretch it out repeatedly?
56 I see your point O’hara was the king  
bigblue1124 : 12/8/2016 9:47 am : link
of missing training camp with injuries in fact had it down to a science. But with JPP being in a contract year who knows if this was a pre existing injury from last week that he figured would go away?

In regards to depth how does a team improve it? Obviously through the draft but at least IMV you have to improve what you have and simply can’t do that by not playing the players currently on the roster. Even 10 snaps here and there add up for both starter and backup.

Just my view.
I believe I read he was already complaning about it prior...  
Johnny5 : 12/8/2016 9:48 am : link
... to Sunday. I 100% believe that the lack of T.O.P. and sustained drives by the offense is wearing out our defense, big time. I feel like this defense coupled with a more efficient offense would be rated top 2 or 3 overall if they were not on the field so much.
He was complaining about groin pain back in week 6  
giant24 : 12/8/2016 9:53 am : link
Jason Pierre-Paul, DE – DNP (groin)

This was probably the beginning pain the doctor was referring to but actually ended up being a hernia.
New York Giants Injury Report (10/12): Apple, Pierre-Paul Miss Practice - ( New Window )
I don't buy it  
UConn4523 : 12/8/2016 9:54 am : link
people always want to look for excuses or something to point to with injuries but the fact is he's a 280 pound man using his core to bull rush and tackle on virtually every play. It can happen on snap 1 or snap 500, doesn't matter.

And the non-contact injury is bogus since you don't need to be hit in the groin to sustain a groin injury. Hernias especially are something that happens over time. Some men have a weakness in their stomach muscles no matter how in shape they are, its just genetics. Many men have hernias and aren't bothered by them and never know it, others it hurts and effect them so they get surgery. Its pretty cut and dry from everything i've read and been through.
It's the Offense,  
HoustonGiant : 12/8/2016 9:58 am : link
the worst thing for a defense, is a bad offense.
giant24 and Johnny,  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 9:58 am : link
Didn't know that
absolutely could be a factor  
area junc : 12/8/2016 9:59 am : link
I was ripped for pointing out the obvious back in August: OV and JPP don't like leaving the field. Same deal with Strahan and Osi which made it difficult to get Tuck and Kiwi on the field. Highly conditioned athletes that liked staying in a rhythm and could go the distance - offering no compelling reason to take them off the field.

OV is a special breed - gets his $52M and nothing changed. Gotta respect that.

JPP's been in a contract year the last 3 seasons - leaving the field is bad for business.
RE: giant24 and Johnny,  
Johnny5 : 12/8/2016 10:03 am : link
In comment 13254600 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Didn't know that

Yeah that doesn't mean it was caused by the offense... lol. It is absolutely logical to me though that this defense is being worn out by the lack of offense. It's never more apparent than when I watch Dallas. I mean Marinelli has them playing well for sure, but it's the way they play, they play with so much confidence and I have to attribute at least some of that to the confidence in their offense, as well as being able to rest while they are marching up and down the field.
It might have some validity  
Carson53 : 12/8/2016 10:09 am : link
since it was a non-contact injury, both JPP and Vernon
have played a LOT of snaps this year. JPP has had injury
issues in the past. Usually the non-contact variety is more
like an ACL injury, not in this case.
Until around 1960  
nygirlie : 12/8/2016 10:09 am : link
Each player generally played 60 minutes - offense, defense and ST.
There was limited substitution - generaly only for injuries.

That was at the college level. In the NFL substitution started a bit earlier.

No one complained about over work.
RE: Until around 1960  
Giantology : 12/8/2016 10:12 am : link
In comment 13254617 nygirlie said:
Quote:
Each player generally played 60 minutes - offense, defense and ST.
There was limited substitution - generaly only for injuries.

That was at the college level. In the NFL substitution started a bit earlier.

No one complained about over work.


Well, the guys playing football were then were certainly a bit smaller and slower
Don't all the stars or superstars  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 10:14 am : link
play major minutes? JJ Watt (pre-season ender)? Joe Thomas? Kueckley(sp) pre-concussion? The list is long..
RE: RE: Until around 1960  
section125 : 12/8/2016 10:17 am : link
In comment 13254621 Giantology said:
Quote:
In comment 13254617 nygirlie said:


Quote:


Each player generally played 60 minutes - offense, defense and ST.
There was limited substitution - generaly only for injuries.

That was at the college level. In the NFL substitution started a bit earlier.

No one complained about over work.



Well, the guys playing football were then were certainly a bit smaller and slower


And they got equally tired - or at least wore down at about the same rate/time.
They mentioned this on Sirius NFL radio this morning...  
EricJ : 12/8/2016 10:17 am : link
that JPP and OV have played the most snaps in the NFL

That being said, I don't know that it should result in a groin injury. That could have happened anyway.
hernias  
UConn4523 : 12/8/2016 10:18 am : link
don't happen because you are overworked. Its usually due to a natural defect in your anatomy that a sudden movement exposes and makes worse. He likely had a weakness in his groin his whole life and it just now popped. Could have happened his rookie year or when he's 30.
I hate drawing parallels but  
area junc : 12/8/2016 10:20 am : link
this reminds me of 2008 when our DLine wore out due to lack of depth.
Seems like Hank, Snacks, OV and JPP have all been banged up
Lack of contribution from  
chuckydee9 : 12/8/2016 10:30 am : link
Round 3 to 7 shows up in here.. These guys are suppose to be able to take snaps away from our starters.. The way this defense is designed we need stud DEs since the DT's don't pressure anyone.. and hence they are forced to play both the DE's all the time.. There were a couple of discussion about this exact thing just a few weeks ago and Yes offense is to blame but also the depth on this team is crap..at almost every position.. We've spent too much money on average RBs (SV, RJ and the likes) as well as other positions that are not delivering...
Ross Tucker this morning  
joeinpa : 12/8/2016 10:41 am : link
Had same injury and felt it occurred because they had over trained that off season. Of interest was that he played through the pain as was speculating that perhaps for JPP it was a business decision to shut it down.

From what I ve heard and read I do believe fatigue is a factor in this injury.

T. O. P. Is a factor as is a lack of quality depth at this position.
BB56 in all due respect  
Bluesbreaker : 12/8/2016 10:45 am : link
Its also a percentage thing sure JPP could have had that
injury in game one but the more reps you have the more likely
you could be injured . Its the same way I feel about a
dink and dunk offense the more plays you have to make to
try to score the more chances of something going wrong .
Add in the fact that were are always having to play tight
games and the TOP is wearing the defense down . It showed
last week when Bell said himself the holes got bigger as
the game wore on .
The terminology..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/8/2016 10:46 am : link
of a sports hernia is actually misleading:

Quote:
Doctor on WFAN was explaining this is a wear and tear injury
giant24 : 9:34 am : link : reply
said very common for DE's because of the way they explode from a three point stance that the muscles between the abdomen and hip flexor becomes weak and results in sports hernia over time. Said that to the athlete it feels like groin pain but its actually a hernia (weakening of wall in abdomen) and that usually the athlete has discomfort for a while before it finally gives but they treat it just as a groin pull and do stretching to deal with.


It isn't actually a weakening in the wall of the abdomen as a regular hernia is. It is more of a tear in the muscle that needs to be repaired, usually in the groin region, and often involves the hip flexor.
That's my point, perhaps not initially explained all that well.  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 10:54 am : link
An otherwise healthy player shouldn't be experiencing this as a rule. Of course tgere are exceptions..

In the examples cited here, Tucker played through the pain..Many players do. That is not what you do to a body. Yes, players are known and expected to do that..Pain signals something is wrong..Same with JPP. Unbeknownst to me, he was playing with/through that. Commendable, but not smart..An MRI should have been taken to rule out severity. If it was and it showed no pre-disposition to hurting it further (no guarantees), fine..If they didn't, then shame on them, imv, or if it showed a minor tear and they let him play through it, not good
And I was ridiculed  
Doomster : 12/8/2016 11:57 am : link
for suggesting that this Giant defense would be gassed by the end of the season.....
Well, we've played 12  
Big Blue '56 : 12/8/2016 12:24 pm : link
games and so far there is mo evidence leaning towards the dpeculation that our D would be gassed in another 4 games..Our D production has NOT dropped off. No reason to believe they will unless injuries cripple our depth
Wasn't it reported he was operated on to repair a sports hernia?  
Matt M. : 12/8/2016 12:27 pm : link
This is a chronic ailment in the groin, and not a typical groin tear...right?
We've discussed this topic earlier in the year  
ZogZerg : 12/8/2016 12:29 pm : link
Many of us felt then that JPP and OV played too many snaps. I still feel that way.

Whether or not that had anything to do with his injury, who knows.

But the issue created is that now we have to play folks with minimal experience. Backups getting real reps during the game would really have helped them going into Dallas.

It was always a bad idea playing JPP and OV the entire game. Now the Giants will have to pay the piper.
RE: Wasn't it reported he was operated on to repair a sports hernia?  
Matt M. : 12/8/2016 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13255043 Matt M. said:
Quote:
This is a chronic ailment in the groin, and not a typical groin tear...right?
I see gthe explanations above, which pretty much confirm this. I wonder if this will impact how many snaps Vernon plays moving forward.
It shouldn't have any effect on Vernon  
UConn4523 : 12/8/2016 12:34 pm : link
you don't reduce your snaps by 10% and bypass all injuries. If his snaps reduce its because he's getting gassed, not to prevent injury.
As soon as O'Hara  
Now Mike in MD : 12/8/2016 12:36 pm : link
finishes his degree in sports medicine I'll give this credence. A lot of people have a lot of opinions about the causes of injuries and for most lay people, they are way off.
RE: As soon as O'Hara  
Johnny5 : 12/8/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13255079 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
finishes his degree in sports medicine I'll give this credence. A lot of people have a lot of opinions about the causes of injuries and for most lay people, they are way off.

Well anyway, Regardless of whether our O's lack of TOP or ability to sustain drives to keep the defense fresh causes specific injuries or not... it aint good. No sir, aint good at all.
RE: And I was ridiculed  
BillKo : 12/8/2016 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13254946 Doomster said:
Quote:
for suggesting that this Giant defense would be gassed by the end of the season.....


Time will tell....I don't see them gassed yet, they are still playing at a pretty high level.
I'm glad others took their shots at O'Hara 'business decisions'  
Mason : 12/8/2016 1:34 pm : link
Dude is absolutely full of shit. How many times did Strahan have to call him out for not giving it his all.
I do not remember all  
rocco8112 : 12/8/2016 3:01 pm : link
the stuff with O'hara mentioned here.

He used to dog it and complain?
To me it's no secret/ Vernon and JPP were on the field almost every  
Blue21 : 12/8/2016 3:42 pm : link
snap in every game. And the D spent way too much time on the field to begin with
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