JPP's future

deep at pass rushing DEs, they could let JPP walk and roll the dice on a less expensive (and healthy) draft pick.

He's a very good player. The Giants will have money and it won't prevent the organization from locking up anyone else.

but JPP is one of the best DE in the league.. he is better than OV and there is almost 0% chance that the backups we have will be able to replicate his presence/production on the DL.. JPP has been an awesome giant and I just hope the best for him.. He deserves OV type of money..

had an opportunity to sit with Garrett and Tyron Smith about what JPP's absence will mean to them Sunday night in terms of opening up the gameplan, not having to worry about help on his side, chipping him, etc.

It's laughable to believe that JPP is not considered #1/1A along with Collins by opposing coaches and coordinators right now in this defense.

JPP played incredibly well this season. He caused tremendous disruption in the pass game; He was stout against the run. He had a fantastic season.

Any person that watched him play this year, and came away with the impression that JPP isn't a special player, that person doesn't understand the game very well.

I mean that as a simple statement of fact. It should be clear to anybody that understands the sport that JPP is a top-tier talent, and he will be very difficult to replace.

I don't see how a fan of this team could watch this season, and than go "JPP? Nah, send him packing!" Unless they really have no bloody clue what the hell they are watching.

He did play well. That's clear to everyone.

In comment 13255285 Go Terps said:

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We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right. If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block. They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.

Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels.

1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday:

"Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that

I cant link twitter from work

2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.

In comment 13255646 Brandon Walsh said:

Quote:

In comment 13255285 Go Terps said: Quote: We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right. If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block. They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do. Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels. 1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday: "Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that I cant link twitter from work 2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.

My bad, ran routues on 88% of his snaps PRIOR to the Giants game.
Link - ( New Window )

He's saying JPP is looking to be paid like a great player, when he's in fact just a very good player.

I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5?

Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example.

I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.

And our pass rushers did not worry the Steelers enough to change that.

In comment 13255660 Go Terps said:

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And our pass rushers did not worry the Steelers enough to change that.

Or maybe he's just a glorified WR as seen in his time as a Steeler that he only runs pass routes?

How about your defensive coordinator comment? Care to address how the exact opposite of what you said is true?

Just admit your post was total BS but it sounded smart so just roll with it.

What are you talking about?

In comment 13255659 jcn56 said:

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He's saying JPP is looking to be paid like a great player, when he's in fact just a very good player. I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5? Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example. I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.

I think looking at them in a ranking is flawed, because that tends to assume that there are equal gaps between #1 and #2, #2 and #3, and so on.

I don't know how many DEs are better than JPP. I do know that when I watch Von Miller play I'm watching someone whose impact on the game is significantly greater than JPP's.

And that's the kind of money we're talking about here, just like we were with Vernon. Von Miller money. And while Vernon (like JPP) is a good player, I don't think we've gotten our money's worth this year for him. And I don't think we would for JPP.

It will make the Giants reluctant to include a lot of guaranteed money and that's the money that matters most. They'll haggle over total value and length as well, but those numbers won't be the sticking point that the guaranteed money will be.

The franchise tag is certainly an option. And it might be the smartest option for the team, because JPP needs to prove he can play a full season. Another alternative is the transition tag, which would be their way of saying: go test the market but we want the right to match any deal you're offered.

If I had to predict, I'd predict he signs a longterm deal before he hits free agency. Something in the neighborhood of $80M over 5 years, but with "only" $25-$30M guaranteed. Personally, I'd love to have him back, but I do have concerns about his ability to stay healthy. If it wasn't for that, I'd say back up the Brinks truck, he's a core player.

His contract is for ~$30M less ($2M per year and 1 year shorter). Von Miller also has up to $70M in guarantees including several vesting options like this:

Quote:

If Miller is on the roster in March of 2018, $9 million of his 2019 base salary will become fully guranteed.

Those are huge for the player since the team is taking on a lot more of the financial risk.

In comment 13255686 Go Terps said:

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What are you talking about?

Link - ( New Window )

I don't get the Green pass route comments. Can you explain?

I said that our DEs don't wreck games; if they did, Pittsburgh would have had to keep Green in to help block instead of gashing us.

I don't see opposing offenses being limited by our pass rush. I don't see tight ends and running backs needing to stay in to help block because JPP and Vernon are blowing up the pocket.

JPP is to the Defense versus just measuring him on the games he already played.

Or how less important...

They play anybody he's going out for passes.

agree with your 5:55 comment.
it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis.

Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year.

I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either.

good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate.

the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.

that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top.

and disappears against good teams,

In comment 13255869 David in LA said:

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that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top.

At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.

In comment 13255877 Go Terps said:

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In comment 13255869 David in LA said: Quote: that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top. At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.

The money only matters if signing JPP prevents the Giants from signing or extending other players. There's no indication a JPP contract would deter the Giants from signing who they want to sign.

You can say "JPP isn't worth X," for practical purposes it means nothing at this point. Pointless debate unless you can show giving JPP X will prevent the Giants from signing A, B, C.

What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals?

Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

In comment 13255859 fkap said:

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agree with your 5:55 comment. it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis. Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year. I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either. good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate. the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.

I totally disagree -- Vernon and JPP have had an outstanding year and are a large part of the reason why teams are having problems running against the Giants

Vernon is a total stud -- blasting him for being injured is really disingenuous and if you can't see the impact JPP has had on some games -- I think you are just ignoring it. The Giants won at least two games this year entirely on JPPs back.

he has been a warrior on and off the field.

and football 101 says that the lack of a clock eating / time consuming run game / OL ends up wearing down the D guys and then shit happens.

and BBI 101 reminds us how wiffs on DL (Owa and Bromley) cause even additional reps/plays/downs to be had for or by your starters, leading to additional wear and tear.

JPP that is (to pay him)

In comment 13256589 JonC said:

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What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals? Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

Projects the same as now with the information available. Eli's hit will be substantially less. Odds are Jennings, Vereen, and Cruz will be gone by then. 2-3 years from now = 2-3 draft classes to stock the roster with cheap talent.

JPP kicking ass vs Dallas in week 1 and Mark Schlererf and Woodson praising his all around game and impact. He was a huge part of that win which may not be obvious to our stat watchers.

In some of the clips #29 sure flashed. We lost something with Behre. If he could stay healthy he's a player.

I'm hoping the young guys step up. Way to early to call Odi a bust. He's a 2nd year 3rd rounder with less than 100 career snaps.

In comment 13256589 JonC said:

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What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals? Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

OB and JPP are the only 2 out of the 4 that are deserving of new deals. Hank would be nice to keep, but I feel he benefits greatly with Snacks next to him. Hank next to Rogers, Bromeley, etc. is just a tandem of mediocrity. Speaking of mediocrity, Pugh absolutely has not distinguished himself with his play and availability that deserves a second contract. Outside of his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. With him in the lineup, we aren't vastly improved. We are average. When his backups are in the game, we still are average. His play doesn't elevate the play of the unit. So if we are going to pay for mediocrity, it would be nice to count on the player lining up for 16 games. With Jerry, he has played 16 games a season since 2012. Paying for mediocrity should not cost what a mid-first round pick looking for a second contract with limited availability will cost.

both Vernon and JPP had slow starts to the year. Both have gradually increased productivity as the year has progressed. There's a reason they had to start moving JPP around (and therefore by default, Vernon). There was very little pass rush in the first quarter of the season.

I didn't 'blast' Vernon because of his injury. I said because of his injury he's had a lackluster year. The first half of the season people had to explain his lack of impact to the injury. That's not a knock. injuries happen. but you can't tell me he was much of an impact player in the first half.

I'm not down on Vernon. He has a lot of Giants football to go and hasn't played a lot of Giants football so far. We'll see what the future has to hold. JPP, on the other hand, has played a lot of Giants football, and his production is up and down. he's a good player, overall, and I don't want to come across otherwise, but he has elite periods, and periods where you don't hear his name.

Put him across from Lawrence and keep him away from Prescott.

Dallas was weak one and that was one of JPP's best games. He was a major factor and they just showed it again on ESPN. He got instant QB pressure on critical 4th qtr downs to force incompletes. After we scored late in the 4th to take the lead, JPP had quick QB pressure on 2nd and 3rd down to cause throwaway incompletes. He forced the 3 and out by himself. Impact plays. Crucial part of the game. Dallas got the ball back with no time.

The slow start angle is BS except for those relying on stats only.

In comment 13256815 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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Put him across from Lawrence and keep him away from Prescott.

Dallas is going to have to do a lot of maneuvering with their cap in order to have a chance at JPP.

Both Vernon and JPP have been strong against the run all year and both had big impacts even without posting sacks.

Deserve has little to do with it anymore, thus, Vernon gets $17M per, OG's get $10M per, and the debates among fans rage constantly.

In comment 13256819 KWALL2 said:

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Dallas was weak one and that was one of JPP's best games. He was a major factor and they just showed it again on ESPN. He got instant QB pressure on critical 4th qtr downs to force incompletes. After we scored late in the 4th to take the lead, JPP had quick QB pressure on 2nd and 3rd down to cause throwaway incompletes. He forced the 3 and out by himself. Impact plays. Crucial part of the game. Dallas got the ball back with no time. The slow start angle is BS except for those relying on stats only.

It's people relying on sack totals only. It's such a less than sophisticated means of grading a player's performance.

Sack numbers were poor.

There's a big difference.

It drives me nuts.

his posts on JPP and Vernon all come down to the fact he thought bringing JPP back was a mistake and shelling out $200M was a mistake.

Remember the Vikings game when the MNF crew showed several graphics making fun of the spending spree?

I didn't want to bring JPP back. Thought he was a stupid fuck for blowing off his hand. I still do, but I also realize that bringing him back was a great move, and I think he needs to be resigned. That could be wrong, just like my stance to bring him back was wrong, and those are the type of things as fans we should love being wrong about.

Go Terps hasn't admitted that yet, and it clouds a lot of his posts on this subject.

I thought that was way too much and I love pass rushers.

That opinion on Vernon changed during preseason. These 2 are the MVPs of this strong defense.

everybody has their blind spots on certain subjects.

Young men tend to think they're invincible. JPP learned the hard way, and the incident definitely seemed to force him to grow up exponentially. He used to have a child-like demeanor, now he's all business.

I agree. And as a counter to him being erroneous on this subject is that he was beating the drum to get Klinsmann fired for years.

Correctly.

In comment 13256858 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I agree. And as a counter to him being erroneous on this subject is that he was beating the drum to get Klinsmann fired for years. Correctly.

Who's Klinsmann?

In comment 13256601 gidiefor said:

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I totally disagree -- Vernon and JPP have had an outstanding year and are a large part of the reason why teams are having problems running against the Giants

I don't see how anyone could question this, especially the part about the run defense.

but his salary will fluctuate depending how he performs in the NFC final and the Super Bowl.

In comment 13256831 JonC said:

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Deserve has little to do with it anymore, thus, Vernon gets $17M per, OG's get $10M per, and the debates among fans rage constantly.

I'm fine with OG's - Pugh getting $10M per. Let someone else pay him for his 12 games a season. A comp pick and cash savings paying Jerry to play 16 games evens it out.