JPP's future

didn't really go out on a limb with that quote, isn't every soon to be free Agent's future up in the air outside of franchise QB's?

In any case, I think he's a Giant next year whether its a longterm deal or the tag. We can afford a higher cap hit next season if we need to tag him, but I don't think it will come to that. Just a gut feeling.

will probably be the most important decision of the offseason.

with other the guys they need to pay.

out a long term deal with the Giants..Usually, they don't want to be bothered with such matters, given their focus is in the field and in the classroom..

No excuses now..If they WANT to work out a long term deal, it should be rather 'easy' to do so, imo

playing under the franchise tag this year.

In comment 13255091 PEEJ said:

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playing under the franchise tag this year.

Are you saying this because you think that he'll get signed to a long term deal or because you don't think he'll play at all if they use the tag on him again?

No way the Giants or JPP want to see him anywhere else.

They will agree on a very generous but fair deal to keep JPP in blue.

In comment 13255104 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 13255091 PEEJ said: Quote: playing under the franchise tag this year. Are you saying this because you think that he'll get signed to a long term deal or because you don't think he'll play at all if they use the tag on him again?

No, the article said he is playing under the franchise tag this season. He is not. He signed a one year contract.

In comment 13255077 ZogZerg said:

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with other the guys they need to pay.

I think he should be their top priority and fit other guys in after they pay him.

In comment 13255104 T-Bone said:

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In comment 13255091 PEEJ said: Quote: playing under the franchise tag this year. Are you saying this because you think that he'll get signed to a long term deal or because you don't think he'll play at all if they use the tag on him again?

He's saying it because the OP's quote is wrong. JPP is not playing 2016 under the franchise tag. He signed a 1 yr deal.

This year like he was a year and a half ago.. only this time he will sign the long term offer before celebrating independence day.

In comment 13255116 section125 said:

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In comment 13255104 T-Bone said: Quote: In comment 13255091 PEEJ said: Quote: playing under the franchise tag this year. Are you saying this because you think that he'll get signed to a long term deal or because you don't think he'll play at all if they use the tag on him again? No, the article said he is playing under the franchise tag this season. He is not. He signed a one year contract.

Good catch. Totally missed that and both you and PEEJ are correct.

will have money to play with because it's pretty obvious that Cruz will not be back, or at the very least, not without a significant paycut (he's something like a $9.4 million cap hit in 2017). I think JPP will end up working out a deal with the Giants to remain here, but I don't see him getting Vernon money, at least not from the Giants.

than Vernon did prior to Vernon signing his contract.
He's also older than Vernon.

Also, any updates on the suit with ESPN?
He was due to make 30-40 million.

The Giants should ask him to take a major pay cut.

How common are complications from the kind of surgery JPP just had? I honestly don't know and wonder if the type of surgery he just had could diminish his ability at all. I love JPP and would like to keep him. I would just prefer the Giants not make a deal and then JPP is unable to perform at the level that he has been playing prior to the injury.

In comment 13255142 jpennyva said:

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How common are complications from the kind of surgery JPP just had? I honestly don't know and wonder if the type of surgery he just had could diminish his ability at all. I love JPP and would like to keep him. I would just prefer the Giants not make a deal and then JPP is unable to perform at the level that he has been playing prior to the injury.

Very uncommon unless you rush back, but even then they just have to do the surgery over. Once healed he should never have a problem with it again. Literally one of the easiest surgeries to go through and recover from as far as sports goes.

In comment 13255104 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 13255091 PEEJ said: Quote: playing under the franchise tag this year. Are you saying this because you think that he'll get signed to a long term deal or because you don't think he'll play at all if they use the tag on him again?

He is saying that because he signed a 1 year deal and was franchise tagged the year before, not this year. He will get tagged this spring unless he takes a home town discount. Once he gets tagged it will help knowing last time around he nearly ruined his opportunity by not agreeing to the long term offer. He'll be a Giant for a while I think.

Options are either let him go in FA, tag him and keep him at least a year, or work out a long term contract.

If they can't agree on an extension, I don't think there's any way they don't tag him, so he's here at least one more season.

come to a long-term deal, front-loaded, and it's for less than Vernon and less than JPP could possibly get elsewhere.

It shouldn't and won't always come down to this in life, but JPP has made over 35M just on his football contracts, he's not playing or negotiating for his livelihood at this point like Vernon or Snacks or other players who didn't have a pre-CBA 1st round pick contract plus two years after that getting paid well.

He can afford to be selective and from all reports I've heard and read he enjoys the Giants and while 99% of players it's all about money, I believe JPP is right now in the 1%. Like Brady. I don't think the chasm can be huge between what others might offer JPP and where he settles with the Giants, but he'll accept less to stay here IMO.

is that they have to account for the tag on the cap and thus it limits their ability to sign FAs. It benefits both side to agree to a contract sooner rather than later

JPP went out on a high. early on in the season, he was a JAG (maybe a little more, but not franchise worthy). Then he had a very good streak for a few games, albeit lackluster opponents. Now he's done for the season before it's known whether he can sustain that streak.

He's shown the hand is NOT an issue.



The Giants, meanwhile, will be left with a bunch of games against good teams and a bunch of replacements that are nothing to write home about. It'll be glaringly obvious that there's a hole there, making JPP look all the more attractive in retrospect.

Teams will be lining up to show him the money. The Giants will be one of them. Whether they're willing to continue placing bids past a certain (likely outrageous) point remains to be seen. Or they can franchise. Would rather work out a long term deal at a higher price than do the franchise if they want to keep him.

At very least under a franchise tag if not under a longer term contract. The Giants have the money and are in win now mode. They can mortgage the future to make it happen now if they want. The Giants know far to well what happens when you don't have a defense.

I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor.

We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role.

JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.

"6 of his 7 sacks came against..:".

He'll be evaluated on the 800+ plays this season and not downgraded by sacks vs 2 teams.

The article offers nothing.

He's been outstanding. If the hand isnt considered an injury risk he gets a massive deal.

In comment 13255198 Go Terps said:

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I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor. We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role. JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.

They could tab him with the Franchise tag and still go after Berry. Of course, Berry could also get the Franchise tag from the Chiefs and ruin that whole thing.

to sign a deal sooner. He's IR for the rest of the year, so there's no risk of career ending injury derailing him, sans another bit of freak stupidity. The only leverage the Giants has is the tag, and then it's laugh all the way to the bank for JPP.

Unless he has a real generous side to him, he's not signing here for much less than he can get on the open market, and it's a pretty safe bet to think he can get a lot on the market.

The 2 young guys can fill JPPs role?

Is it that easy?

Why not find a cost controlled young guy to fill Berry's role?

Quote:

The Giants, meanwhile, will be left with a bunch of games against good teams and a bunch of replacements that are nothing to write home about. It'll be glaringly obvious that there's a hole there, making JPP look all the more attractive in retrospect.

You don't know that..You have zero idea how JPP's replacements will rise (or not rise) to the occasion..There are tons of examples of bench players or limited snaps players rising to the occasion..Nada..None of us do..you speak/write with definitiveness and you haven't a clue-yet..

I realize that to a point, after your stance on JPP over the last year and a half, you are going to go down with the ship, but come on.

You were telling us all last season that Wynn and George Selvie were going to fill JPP's shoes. How did that work out? Okwara has showed alittle something in limited snaps, I'll give you that, but OO has shown nothing in 2 seasons and that's when healthy, which isnt often. Wynn is JAG.

You can cherry pick all you want the competition for JPP but if it is a regular season game on an NFL schedule, it's an important performance.

As for Eric Berry, who wouldnt love to have him? Keep in mind it's always going to be more expensive to buy someone else's free agent than to keep your own. What is Eric Berry going to command on the open market? I also have a feeling the organization really likes DT given the fact he won a starting job in camp as a rookie. That counts for alot.

In comment 13255217 KWALL2 said:

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The 2 young guys can fill JPPs role? Is it that easy? Why not find a cost controlled young guy to fill Berry's role?

I'm not suggesting it's easy, I'm saying the guys are already in place. I also think Berry is better at his position than JPP is at his.

But Matt's right, Berry probably gets franchised at minimum by KC.

KWALL...It's no secret I don't think JPP is as good as you think he is. Put simply I think we're already vastly overpaying one DE I'm not gonna vote for overpaying another.

Sad to say, but his cancer could come out of remission at any time..Unfortunately, he's a health risk..As great as he is, I would never spend huge guaranteed money on the guy

Whiffed on that article.
His carer is not in jeopardy, he would love to get OV money(OV may not even get OV money), but he will give NYFG the HT discount for being loyal to him during the 7/4 thing.

on this one......

He played well against the run, but the sacks were not there until Chicago/Cleveland.....just like all the sacks in meaningless games, against poor competition, at the end of the 2014 season.....and this is another, in a string of injuries, that this guy has had.....

He certainly is not worth Vernon money(neither is Vernon, but that was the going rate at the time)......and I don't think, outside of Tom Brady, that any athlete gives a team a home discount on a major contract.....

If somebody approaches him, I think he is gone....so if the Giants want to retain him, it will have to be with the tag.....and he gets overpaid for another year....

in the other safeties on the roster including Thompson and Berhe (even Adams) than I do with Okwara, Odi, and Wynn.

If I could only add Berry or JPP this off-season it's a no-brainer.

I do think all the people in the "let JPP walk" camp will have all the evidence they need the next 4 weeks to stick with that belief or change their minds.

that would take over 50% of our available cap space. Say what you will about our front office but the Giants aren't going to stand in the way of him making big $$$. That's not how they do business.

He's done the "prove it" part. Either they're convinced now or they never will be.

The tag is an absolute last resort - and would create serious acrimony between org and player. A disinterested or otherwise jaded JPP at $16M isn't a good business move.

In comment 13255210 fkap said:

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to sign a deal sooner. He's IR for the rest of the year, so there's no risk of career ending injury derailing him, sans another bit of freak stupidity. The only leverage the Giants has is the tag, and then it's laugh all the way to the bank for JPP. Unless he has a real generous side to him, he's not signing here for much less than he can get on the open market, and it's a pretty safe bet to think he can get a lot on the market.

Benefit or no benefit, the Giants and JPP have the luxury of much time on their sides to work out a deal..Generally, when the season's over, all the players want to do for a while is crash, heal their wounds and then address possible FA..The huge amount of time they have now increases the odds exponentially to work out a long term deal, imo..

They may not and he may test the waters anyway, but the odds, imho, are much in the Giants and JPP's favor that they can give and take to a final deal with all the time at theri disposal, imv

JPP and Vernon weren't playing an overwhelming percentage of snaps (at one point it was mid 90 percent) because the backups are so stellar.

I'm making a prediction, not stating facts, on whether the backups are going to rise to the occasion. I don't know it's going to happen, but if I have to place a bet (even if it's a hypothetical bet that won't cost me a dime), I bet we're going to have a huge hole where JPP used to be.

In comment 13255253 fkap said:

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JPP and Vernon weren't playing an overwhelming percentage of snaps (at one point it was mid 90 percent) because the backups are so stellar. I'm making a prediction, not stating facts, on whether the backups are going to rise to the occasion. I don't know it's going to happen, but if I have to place a bet (even if it's a hypothetical bet that won't cost me a dime), I bet we're going to have a huge hole where JPP used to be.

Well, you could turn out to be spot on here, but I'm not making any pronouncements until, when and if, the kids rise (or sink) to the occasion

What have you seen from these DEs? They haven't shown much at all.

Saying the replacement is already in place is a hopefully prayer at this point. We'll see. If they step up then I'm on board with using he cash on another position.

Also, Vernon is not a bad contract. He's an impact player and another guy you can't simply replace with any guy on the bench.

In comment 13255257 KWALL2 said:

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What have you seen from these DEs? They haven't shown much at all. Saying the replacement is already in place is a hopefully prayer at this point. We'll see. If they step up then I'm on board with using he cash on another position. Also, Vernon is not a bad contract. He's an impact player and another guy you can't simply replace with any guy on the bench.

Terps, this is a fair post by KWALL

from Doomster.

I would love to know what this board would have been like a couple of weeks ago if the D didnt step up against Cleveland after the O and special teams was nothing to write home about.

There are no meaningless games in the NFL until you're eliminated from the playoffs.

I also don't give a sh*t how many years ago it was, 2011 was the best season by any NYG defensive player not named Taylor or Strahan and it directly lead to a SB title.

JPP is still the best 2-way 4-3 DE after J.J. Watt.

you've been around long enough to know that contracts are a game of chicken. Right now, there's no reason for either side to do much more than explore what the other side is going to want. JPP will wait to see what the market is shaking out to be, and then hit the Giants up for what he thinks he can get, plus a little so he has room to retreat. The Giants will wait out his rehab, see what the market is going to be, and then try to lowball him. they'll both then stand toe to toe and see who blinks first.

Him sitting on a couch, or rehabbing, has little to do with the timeline of events. Deals used to get done on a regular basis during the season. Players have figured out it's best to wait it out and play the game of chicken. and the agent does all the work.

We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right.

If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block.

They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.

You're the guy who said JPP gets manhandled by TEs in the run game and dioes nothing as a pass rusher except useless QB pressures. That was 2 weeks ago.

Yesterday you posted we can't make the playoffs now that "we lost JPP".

Amazing consistency there.

In comment 13255281 fkap said:

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you've been around long enough to know that contracts are a game of chicken. Right now, there's no reason for either side to do much more than explore what the other side is going to want. JPP will wait to see what the market is shaking out to be, and then hit the Giants up for what he thinks he can get, plus a little so he has room to retreat. The Giants will wait out his rehab, see what the market is going to be, and then try to lowball him. they'll both then stand toe to toe and see who blinks first. Him sitting on a couch, or rehabbing, has little to do with the timeline of events. Deals used to get done on a regular basis during the season. Players have figured out it's best to wait it out and play the game of chicken. and the agent does all the work.

Ok, we can disagree on the time element equation here

In comment 13255286 KWALL2 said:

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You're the guy who said JPP gets manhandled by TEs in the run game and dioes nothing as a pass rusher except useless QB pressures. That was 2 weeks ago. Yesterday you posted we can't make the playoffs now that "we lost JPP". Amazing consistency there.

Terps said that? I don't think so..Is there a specific link, Kev?

In comment 13255285 Go Terps said:

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We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right. If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block. They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.

Just curious here. You seem to downplay how effective OV and JPP are on the field. If they're not truly elite, who are these top 5 4-3 DE's ahead of them?

Do not get there on every play.

Who wrecks gsmes in the NFL right now?

Mack? Miller? They play 1000-1200 snaps, rights? How many times do they fail to get pressure?

Your expectations are not reasonable. The one place to pay big money is on guys who can get pressure. Vernon does that and plays the run well. Ditto for JPP. You can't replace these guys with any guy on the roster. They're the toughest guys to find.

That was to Doomster

Sorry about that..

Reese needs to try to keep the core of this defense in tact and continue to build on it. JPP is a critical part of the D and the core IMO. He was coming on very strong and looked poised for a nice strong finish, helping us get into the playoffs.

Really? So JPP is the same as say Wynn?

And what has anyone seen from Owa or Okwara to feel confident either could sufficiently replace JPP?

He's played very well, has been very disruptive and is a weapon vs the run too

I think JPP is going to be back this year

on one hand, I agree with your comments regarding the value of Vernon or JPP. Neither one are routinely disruptive enough to warrant that salary.

However, When you plug in a JAG, which we saw in abundance last year, and which I predict we're going to see in place of JPP this year, you see that JAG ain't going to get it done.

A best case scenario is having one of the O's step up. Is there much of any evidence to have confidence in that? But let's say they do. Sayonara JPP. Draft another good DE (something we've been trying to do for a while) and there's no crying over JPP. But first we have to have someone, anyone, step up to the plate and be better than JAG. Personally, I don't see it happening, but if it does, break out the booze coz we're gonna party.

Poaching other teams personnel is always costly. DE is a premier position. It's going to cost to poach. It's going to cost to retain. the only alternative is to draft well. but, until we have high hopes for a youngster, paying the cost of retaining is a viable option.

I made the JAG comment regarding JPP. Early on this season, he was nothing to write home about. JAG was probably a bit unfair, but the first quarter he was nothing special. He had some good games afterward though.

In comment 13255198 Go Terps said:

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I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor. We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role. JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.

On what earth can JPP have his role filled by okwara and owa? That's utter nonsense. Bannable suggestion

In comment 13255328 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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In comment 13255198 Go Terps said: Quote: I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor. We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role. JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland. On what earth can JPP have his role filled by okwara and owa? That's utter nonsense. Bannable suggestion

And if they do, you'll be the first to say, "wow, I didn't see that coming. Very surprised..Happily so.."

They just need to step up and do their job. They need to make things tenable for OV..

We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo..

BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."

In comment 13255189 PEEJ said:

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is that they have to account for the tag on the cap and thus it limits their ability to sign FAs. It benefits both side to agree to a contract sooner rather than later

The plus side of it is you make JPP prove it again for another full year, that he is an Elite edge rusher/defender and if he doesn't then at least you wont have him on the hook long term.

In comment 13255198 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor. We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role. JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.

We will certainly find out in the next 4 weeks if they can fill his role.

In comment 13255341 Big Blue '56 said:

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They just need to step up and do their job. They need to make things tenable for OV.. We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo.. BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."

These next 4 games should put to bed the questions though. Can Okwara or OO (if he plays) be "the guy" opposite Vernon.

If not, or if they're not sure it means using a premium draft pick or signing a different free agent.

At that point JPP might be the best option.

Should be interesting finding out.

In comment 13255341 Big Blue '56 said:

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They just need to step up and do their job. They need to make things tenable for OV.. We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo.. BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."

Everyone is going to have to pitch in and pick up the slack. Seems like you've had an axe to grind with JPP ever since we've brought him back. I mean, you recently posted that you'd make Hankins a priority over JPP. I'd love to see the reasoning behind suggesting prioritizing someone that has one ok year to his name. Hankins plays well when someone else takes the double off of him.

hit FA and we make a play for both of them. We will have enough cap to Tag JPP, re-sign Hankins and add depth across the board where its needed and then some and then some.

In comment 13255250 area junc said:

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that would take over 50% of our available cap space. Say what you will about our front office but the Giants aren't going to stand in the way of him making big $$$. That's not how they do business. He's done the "prove it" part. Either they're convinced now or they never will be. The tag is an absolute last resort - and would create serious acrimony between org and player. A disinterested or otherwise jaded JPP at $16M isn't a good business move.

I think we have nearly $30 mil in cap space next year, plus we can have another $20 mil potentially with cuts. The price of the tag is not an issue. I would tag him, I wouldn't give him the OV deal. Injuries concern everyone. He'll be 29 next season. 4 years for 60 million or tag him.

If another one of Reese's brilliant draft choices 'OWA" was developing at the rate they expected a third rounder would. He would be in line to replace JPP and we could spend the money on the O-line. After Reese gave Vernon 85 million , can't see him breaking the bank for JPP

In comment 13255351 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 13255341 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: They just need to step up and do their job. They need to make things tenable for OV.. We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo.. BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not." Everyone is going to have to pitch in and pick up the slack. Seems like you've had an axe to grind with JPP ever since we've brought him back. I mean, you recently posted that you'd make Hankins a priority over JPP. I'd love to see the reasoning behind suggesting prioritizing someone that has one ok year to his name. Hankins plays well when someone else takes the double off of him.

Hankins and Snacks are two of the best young tandems in the league, I think it's imperative that we keep them..JPP has been very good, but not at the guaranteed dollars bandied about on here and in the media..Let him sign elsewhere if he wants prohibitive guarantees..

IMO Hankins benefits from playing with the guys around him more than it is the other way around. He's talented, but JPP's are much harder to find. You absolutely do what you can to bring him back over Hankins. I doubt there's a single GM, that would agree with you on that one IMO.

I don't think Vernon or JPP are JAGs. I've said at every opportunity that they are good players.

But they aren't great players. And thus I wouldn't pay them great money. That's what I've said from day one, and after 12 games this season I still think Vernon is grossly overpaid and I wouldn't repeat the mistake with JPP.

It's also worth mentioning with JPP that this is now 1 season in 4 in which he's played 12 games or more.

In comment 13255389 Go Terps said:

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It's also worth mentioning with JPP that this is now 1 season in 4 in which he's played 12 games or more.

Thats one way to phrase it.

Another way would be that in his 7 year career he has missed a total of 17 games (including the 4 this year he will miss), and 8 of them from a freak (but stupid) accident that is unlikely to happen again.

I think, before the decision is made. I also don't believe they have put JPP on the IR at this point but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. We'll see how everything plays out but there are so many unknowns right now - how the D will continue to play in December, if the Giants make it to the playoffs and whether or not JPP might be able to participate in those playoffs, who else may or may not become available - and, of course, how much JPP expects on his next contract. Sometimes value is shown in absence. I just think there are still too many unknowns right now. I hope JPP is a Giant next year. I also hope other needs get addressed in the off season.

Giants have plenty of room to give him a deal. They could give him 4yrs 55-60M with 1/2 guaranteed. Give him a bigger signing bonus. Easily done

Vernon's contract is 40.5M guaranteed. 12M is not guaranteed until 2018.

They already have 27M in cap space for 2017, plus

They gain 7.4M by getting rid of Cruz
They gain 3.0M getting rid of Thomas
They gain 2.5M moving on from Jennings

That is 13M right off the bat to get to 40M. You sign Pugh long term and gives you more.

They can easily sign JPP, Hankins, Pugh and some veterans

JPP was excellent early in the season starting with game 1. He had plenty of QB pressure in the game and several impact plays including 2 in a row to force a 3 and out in the 4th qtr.

He's been consistent all year.

Teams are not giving JPP a big deal because of the last 2 games. They'll look at the entire year for a grade and it will justify a big deal.

deep at pass rushing DEs, they could let JPP walk and roll the dice on a less expensive (and healthy) draft pick.

He's a very good player. The Giants will have money and it won't prevent the organization from locking up anyone else.

but JPP is one of the best DE in the league.. he is better than OV and there is almost 0% chance that the backups we have will be able to replicate his presence/production on the DL.. JPP has been an awesome giant and I just hope the best for him.. He deserves OV type of money..

had an opportunity to sit with Garrett and Tyron Smith about what JPP's absence will mean to them Sunday night in terms of opening up the gameplan, not having to worry about help on his side, chipping him, etc.

It's laughable to believe that JPP is not considered #1/1A along with Collins by opposing coaches and coordinators right now in this defense.

JPP played incredibly well this season. He caused tremendous disruption in the pass game; He was stout against the run. He had a fantastic season.

Any person that watched him play this year, and came away with the impression that JPP isn't a special player, that person doesn't understand the game very well.

I mean that as a simple statement of fact. It should be clear to anybody that understands the sport that JPP is a top-tier talent, and he will be very difficult to replace.

I don't see how a fan of this team could watch this season, and than go "JPP? Nah, send him packing!" Unless they really have no bloody clue what the hell they are watching.

He did play well. That's clear to everyone.

In comment 13255285 Go Terps said:

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We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right. If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block. They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.

Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels.

1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday:

"Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that

I cant link twitter from work

2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.

In comment 13255646 Brandon Walsh said:

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In comment 13255285 Go Terps said: Quote: We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right. If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block. They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do. Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels. 1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday: "Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that I cant link twitter from work 2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.

My bad, ran routues on 88% of his snaps PRIOR to the Giants game.
Link - ( New Window )

He's saying JPP is looking to be paid like a great player, when he's in fact just a very good player.

I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5?

Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example.

I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.

And our pass rushers did not worry the Steelers enough to change that.

In comment 13255660 Go Terps said:

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And our pass rushers did not worry the Steelers enough to change that.

Or maybe he's just a glorified WR as seen in his time as a Steeler that he only runs pass routes?

How about your defensive coordinator comment? Care to address how the exact opposite of what you said is true?

Just admit your post was total BS but it sounded smart so just roll with it.

What are you talking about?

In comment 13255659 jcn56 said:

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He's saying JPP is looking to be paid like a great player, when he's in fact just a very good player. I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5? Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example. I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.

I think looking at them in a ranking is flawed, because that tends to assume that there are equal gaps between #1 and #2, #2 and #3, and so on.

I don't know how many DEs are better than JPP. I do know that when I watch Von Miller play I'm watching someone whose impact on the game is significantly greater than JPP's.

And that's the kind of money we're talking about here, just like we were with Vernon. Von Miller money. And while Vernon (like JPP) is a good player, I don't think we've gotten our money's worth this year for him. And I don't think we would for JPP.

It will make the Giants reluctant to include a lot of guaranteed money and that's the money that matters most. They'll haggle over total value and length as well, but those numbers won't be the sticking point that the guaranteed money will be.

The franchise tag is certainly an option. And it might be the smartest option for the team, because JPP needs to prove he can play a full season. Another alternative is the transition tag, which would be their way of saying: go test the market but we want the right to match any deal you're offered.

If I had to predict, I'd predict he signs a longterm deal before he hits free agency. Something in the neighborhood of $80M over 5 years, but with "only" $25-$30M guaranteed. Personally, I'd love to have him back, but I do have concerns about his ability to stay healthy. If it wasn't for that, I'd say back up the Brinks truck, he's a core player.

His contract is for ~$30M less ($2M per year and 1 year shorter). Von Miller also has up to $70M in guarantees including several vesting options like this:

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If Miller is on the roster in March of 2018, $9 million of his 2019 base salary will become fully guranteed.

Those are huge for the player since the team is taking on a lot more of the financial risk.

In comment 13255686 Go Terps said:

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What are you talking about?

Link - ( New Window )

I don't get the Green pass route comments. Can you explain?

I said that our DEs don't wreck games; if they did, Pittsburgh would have had to keep Green in to help block instead of gashing us.

I don't see opposing offenses being limited by our pass rush. I don't see tight ends and running backs needing to stay in to help block because JPP and Vernon are blowing up the pocket.

JPP is to the Defense versus just measuring him on the games he already played.

Or how less important...

They play anybody he's going out for passes.

agree with your 5:55 comment.
it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis.

Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year.

I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either.

good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate.

the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.

that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top.

and disappears against good teams,

In comment 13255869 David in LA said:

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that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top.

At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.

In comment 13255877 Go Terps said:

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In comment 13255869 David in LA said: Quote: that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top. At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.

The money only matters if signing JPP prevents the Giants from signing or extending other players. There's no indication a JPP contract would deter the Giants from signing who they want to sign.

You can say "JPP isn't worth X," for practical purposes it means nothing at this point. Pointless debate unless you can show giving JPP X will prevent the Giants from signing A, B, C.

What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals?

Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

In comment 13255859 fkap said:

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agree with your 5:55 comment. it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis. Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year. I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either. good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate. the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.

I totally disagree -- Vernon and JPP have had an outstanding year and are a large part of the reason why teams are having problems running against the Giants

Vernon is a total stud -- blasting him for being injured is really disingenuous and if you can't see the impact JPP has had on some games -- I think you are just ignoring it. The Giants won at least two games this year entirely on JPPs back.

he has been a warrior on and off the field.

and football 101 says that the lack of a clock eating / time consuming run game / OL ends up wearing down the D guys and then shit happens.

and BBI 101 reminds us how wiffs on DL (Owa and Bromley) cause even additional reps/plays/downs to be had for or by your starters, leading to additional wear and tear.

JPP that is (to pay him)

In comment 13256589 JonC said:

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What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals? Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

Projects the same as now with the information available. Eli's hit will be substantially less. Odds are Jennings, Vereen, and Cruz will be gone by then. 2-3 years from now = 2-3 draft classes to stock the roster with cheap talent.

JPP kicking ass vs Dallas in week 1 and Mark Schlererf and Woodson praising his all around game and impact. He was a huge part of that win which may not be obvious to our stat watchers.

In some of the clips #29 sure flashed. We lost something with Behre. If he could stay healthy he's a player.

I'm hoping the young guys step up. Way to early to call Odi a bust. He's a 2nd year 3rd rounder with less than 100 career snaps.

In comment 13256589 JonC said:

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What do the cap projections over the next 2-3+ seasons look like with OB, JPP, Hank, Pugh, et al lined up with new deals? Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.

OB and JPP are the only 2 out of the 4 that are deserving of new deals. Hank would be nice to keep, but I feel he benefits greatly with Snacks next to him. Hank next to Rogers, Bromeley, etc. is just a tandem of mediocrity. Speaking of mediocrity, Pugh absolutely has not distinguished himself with his play and availability that deserves a second contract. Outside of his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. With him in the lineup, we aren't vastly improved. We are average. When his backups are in the game, we still are average. His play doesn't elevate the play of the unit. So if we are going to pay for mediocrity, it would be nice to count on the player lining up for 16 games. With Jerry, he has played 16 games a season since 2012. Paying for mediocrity should not cost what a mid-first round pick looking for a second contract with limited availability will cost.

both Vernon and JPP had slow starts to the year. Both have gradually increased productivity as the year has progressed. There's a reason they had to start moving JPP around (and therefore by default, Vernon). There was very little pass rush in the first quarter of the season.

I didn't 'blast' Vernon because of his injury. I said because of his injury he's had a lackluster year. The first half of the season people had to explain his lack of impact to the injury. That's not a knock. injuries happen. but you can't tell me he was much of an impact player in the first half.

I'm not down on Vernon. He has a lot of Giants football to go and hasn't played a lot of Giants football so far. We'll see what the future has to hold. JPP, on the other hand, has played a lot of Giants football, and his production is up and down. he's a good player, overall, and I don't want to come across otherwise, but he has elite periods, and periods where you don't hear his name.

Put him across from Lawrence and keep him away from Prescott.

Dallas was weak one and that was one of JPP's best games. He was a major factor and they just showed it again on ESPN. He got instant QB pressure on critical 4th qtr downs to force incompletes. After we scored late in the 4th to take the lead, JPP had quick QB pressure on 2nd and 3rd down to cause throwaway incompletes. He forced the 3 and out by himself. Impact plays. Crucial part of the game. Dallas got the ball back with no time.

The slow start angle is BS except for those relying on stats only.

In comment 13256815 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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Put him across from Lawrence and keep him away from Prescott.

Dallas is going to have to do a lot of maneuvering with their cap in order to have a chance at JPP.

Both Vernon and JPP have been strong against the run all year and both had big impacts even without posting sacks.

Deserve has little to do with it anymore, thus, Vernon gets $17M per, OG's get $10M per, and the debates among fans rage constantly.

In comment 13256819 KWALL2 said:

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Dallas was weak one and that was one of JPP's best games. He was a major factor and they just showed it again on ESPN. He got instant QB pressure on critical 4th qtr downs to force incompletes. After we scored late in the 4th to take the lead, JPP had quick QB pressure on 2nd and 3rd down to cause throwaway incompletes. He forced the 3 and out by himself. Impact plays. Crucial part of the game. Dallas got the ball back with no time. The slow start angle is BS except for those relying on stats only.

It's people relying on sack totals only. It's such a less than sophisticated means of grading a player's performance.

Sack numbers were poor.

There's a big difference.

It drives me nuts.

his posts on JPP and Vernon all come down to the fact he thought bringing JPP back was a mistake and shelling out $200M was a mistake.

Remember the Vikings game when the MNF crew showed several graphics making fun of the spending spree?

I didn't want to bring JPP back. Thought he was a stupid fuck for blowing off his hand. I still do, but I also realize that bringing him back was a great move, and I think he needs to be resigned. That could be wrong, just like my stance to bring him back was wrong, and those are the type of things as fans we should love being wrong about.

Go Terps hasn't admitted that yet, and it clouds a lot of his posts on this subject.

I thought that was way too much and I love pass rushers.

That opinion on Vernon changed during preseason. These 2 are the MVPs of this strong defense.

everybody has their blind spots on certain subjects.

Young men tend to think they're invincible. JPP learned the hard way, and the incident definitely seemed to force him to grow up exponentially. He used to have a child-like demeanor, now he's all business.

I agree. And as a counter to him being erroneous on this subject is that he was beating the drum to get Klinsmann fired for years.

Correctly.

In comment 13256858 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I agree. And as a counter to him being erroneous on this subject is that he was beating the drum to get Klinsmann fired for years. Correctly.

Who's Klinsmann?

In comment 13256601 gidiefor said:

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I totally disagree -- Vernon and JPP have had an outstanding year and are a large part of the reason why teams are having problems running against the Giants

I don't see how anyone could question this, especially the part about the run defense.

but his salary will fluctuate depending how he performs in the NFC final and the Super Bowl.

In comment 13256831 JonC said:

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Deserve has little to do with it anymore, thus, Vernon gets $17M per, OG's get $10M per, and the debates among fans rage constantly.

I'm fine with OG's - Pugh getting $10M per. Let someone else pay him for his 12 games a season. A comp pick and cash savings paying Jerry to play 16 games evens it out.