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The New York Daily News reports impending free agent Jason Pierre-Paul's Giants future is up in the air. Pierre-Paul is done for the season after undergoing sports-hernia surgery. It's possible he won't be back with the Giants after playing out this year on the franchise tag. Pierre-Paul graded as one of PFF's top 4-3 ends, but six of his seven sacks came against Cleveland and Chicago in the two weeks before he went down. Pierre-Paul is likely going to be targeting Olivier Vernon money (five years, $85M). He would cost the Giants $15.7 million to tag in 2017. |
And what has anyone seen from Owa or Okwara to feel confident either could sufficiently replace JPP?
He's played very well, has been very disruptive and is a weapon vs the run too
However, When you plug in a JAG, which we saw in abundance last year, and which I predict we're going to see in place of JPP this year, you see that JAG ain't going to get it done.
A best case scenario is having one of the O's step up. Is there much of any evidence to have confidence in that? But let's say they do. Sayonara JPP. Draft another good DE (something we've been trying to do for a while) and there's no crying over JPP. But first we have to have someone, anyone, step up to the plate and be better than JAG. Personally, I don't see it happening, but if it does, break out the booze coz we're gonna party.
Poaching other teams personnel is always costly. DE is a premier position. It's going to cost to poach. It's going to cost to retain. the only alternative is to draft well. but, until we have high hopes for a youngster, paying the cost of retaining is a viable option.
We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role.
JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.
On what earth can JPP have his role filled by okwara and owa? That's utter nonsense. Bannable suggestion
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I'd rather target Eric Berry in FA so he can be Earl Thomas to Landon Collins's Kam Chancellor.
We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role.
JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.
On what earth can JPP have his role filled by okwara and owa? That's utter nonsense. Bannable suggestion
And if they do, you'll be the first to say, "wow, I didn't see that coming. Very surprised..Happily so.."
We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo..
BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."
The plus side of it is you make JPP prove it again for another full year, that he is an Elite edge rusher/defender and if he doesn't then at least you wont have him on the hook long term.
We've got two young, cost controlled guys at DE in Okwara and Odi that could fill JPP's role.
JPP's played well this year...certainly better than I thought he would...but I hope the Giants don't overreact to big games against Chicago and Cleveland.
We will certainly find out in the next 4 weeks if they can fill his role.
We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo..
BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."
These next 4 games should put to bed the questions though. Can Okwara or OO (if he plays) be "the guy" opposite Vernon.
If not, or if they're not sure it means using a premium draft pick or signing a different free agent.
At that point JPP might be the best option.
Should be interesting finding out.
We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo..
BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."
Everyone is going to have to pitch in and pick up the slack. Seems like you've had an axe to grind with JPP ever since we've brought him back. I mean, you recently posted that you'd make Hankins a priority over JPP. I'd love to see the reasoning behind suggesting prioritizing someone that has one ok year to his name. Hankins plays well when someone else takes the double off of him.
He's done the "prove it" part. Either they're convinced now or they never will be.
The tag is an absolute last resort - and would create serious acrimony between org and player. A disinterested or otherwise jaded JPP at $16M isn't a good business move.
I think we have nearly $30 mil in cap space next year, plus we can have another $20 mil potentially with cuts. The price of the tag is not an issue. I would tag him, I wouldn't give him the OV deal. Injuries concern everyone. He'll be 29 next season. 4 years for 60 million or tag him.
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They just need to step up and do their job. They need to make things tenable for OV..
We have jo idea how they will perform..The sample size is way too small, imo..
BBI: "The smple size may be small, but I've seen enough, small or not."
Everyone is going to have to pitch in and pick up the slack. Seems like you've had an axe to grind with JPP ever since we've brought him back. I mean, you recently posted that you'd make Hankins a priority over JPP. I'd love to see the reasoning behind suggesting prioritizing someone that has one ok year to his name. Hankins plays well when someone else takes the double off of him.
Hankins and Snacks are two of the best young tandems in the league, I think it's imperative that we keep them..JPP has been very good, but not at the guaranteed dollars bandied about on here and in the media..Let him sign elsewhere if he wants prohibitive guarantees..
But they aren't great players. And thus I wouldn't pay them great money. That's what I've said from day one, and after 12 games this season I still think Vernon is grossly overpaid and I wouldn't repeat the mistake with JPP.
It's also worth mentioning with JPP that this is now 1 season in 4 in which he's played 12 games or more.
It's also worth mentioning with JPP that this is now 1 season in 4 in which he's played 12 games or more.
Thats one way to phrase it.
Another way would be that in his 7 year career he has missed a total of 17 games (including the 4 this year he will miss), and 8 of them from a freak (but stupid) accident that is unlikely to happen again.
Vernon's contract is 40.5M guaranteed. 12M is not guaranteed until 2018.
They already have 27M in cap space for 2017, plus
They gain 7.4M by getting rid of Cruz
They gain 3.0M getting rid of Thomas
They gain 2.5M moving on from Jennings
That is 13M right off the bat to get to 40M. You sign Pugh long term and gives you more.
They can easily sign JPP, Hankins, Pugh and some veterans
He's been consistent all year.
Teams are not giving JPP a big deal because of the last 2 games. They'll look at the entire year for a grade and it will justify a big deal.
It's laughable to believe that JPP is not considered #1/1A along with Collins by opposing coaches and coordinators right now in this defense.
Any person that watched him play this year, and came away with the impression that JPP isn't a special player, that person doesn't understand the game very well.
I mean that as a simple statement of fact. It should be clear to anybody that understands the sport that JPP is a top-tier talent, and he will be very difficult to replace.
I don't see how a fan of this team could watch this season, and than go "JPP? Nah, send him packing!" Unless they really have no bloody clue what the hell they are watching.
If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block.
They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.
Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels.
1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday:
"Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that
I cant link twitter from work
2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.
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We figure to probably draft another DE, and sign a free agent if the money is right.
If we're using Vernon's contract as the measuring stick, I don't think either guy (Vernon or JPP) is worth that kind of cash. For that kind of contract I want a guy that wrecks games. If either of those guys wrecked games then LaDarius Green would not have been able to gash us last week because Pittsburgh would have had no choice but to keep him in to block.
They're good players, but they don't change the way opponents play us. They're not keeping offensive coordinators up at night the way Miller, Mack, Watt, or Houston do.
Not that I want to bring facts into this conversation because when it comes to JPP you just write well, which makes people think you are correct but you're last post is FACTUALLY wrong on many levels.
1. Ed Werder's exact tweet yesterday:
"Huge loss for #Giants defense. Great respect throughout league for JPP as dominant player. Offensive coordinators cite him as that
I cant link twitter from work
2. Ladarius Green was running routes on over 75% of his snaps BEFORE the Giants game.
My bad, ran routues on 88% of his snaps PRIOR to the Giants game.
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I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5?
Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example.
I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.
Or maybe he's just a glorified WR as seen in his time as a Steeler that he only runs pass routes?
How about your defensive coordinator comment? Care to address how the exact opposite of what you said is true?
Just admit your post was total BS but it sounded smart so just roll with it.
I think you have to take a step back and ask - who deserves to be paid like a great player? The best DE in the league? The top 3? Top 5?
Salaries are a tough thing to quantify - guys get paid over a long term, and that money has to scale accordingly. So there are very good players who look overpaid by virtue of their contract being relatively new, and there are very good players who look like a bargain, because they've been tied up for awhile. Look no further than the extension given to Eli not too long ago as an example.
I think JPP's one of the best 4-3 ends in the league. If not #1, then at least top 3-4. He'll get paid that way, whether by us or someone else.
I think looking at them in a ranking is flawed, because that tends to assume that there are equal gaps between #1 and #2, #2 and #3, and so on.
I don't know how many DEs are better than JPP. I do know that when I watch Von Miller play I'm watching someone whose impact on the game is significantly greater than JPP's.
And that's the kind of money we're talking about here, just like we were with Vernon. Von Miller money. And while Vernon (like JPP) is a good player, I don't think we've gotten our money's worth this year for him. And I don't think we would for JPP.
The franchise tag is certainly an option. And it might be the smartest option for the team, because JPP needs to prove he can play a full season. Another alternative is the transition tag, which would be their way of saying: go test the market but we want the right to match any deal you're offered.
If I had to predict, I'd predict he signs a longterm deal before he hits free agency. Something in the neighborhood of $80M over 5 years, but with "only" $25-$30M guaranteed. Personally, I'd love to have him back, but I do have concerns about his ability to stay healthy. If it wasn't for that, I'd say back up the Brinks truck, he's a core player.
Those are huge for the player since the team is taking on a lot more of the financial risk.
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I don't see opposing offenses being limited by our pass rush. I don't see tight ends and running backs needing to stay in to help block because JPP and Vernon are blowing up the pocket.
Or how less important...
it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis.
Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year.
I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either.
good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate.
the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.
At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.
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that can adequately replace JPP without us missing a beat. We need to bring JPP back and build on top.
At that position, no one that I can think of. That doesn't mean it's the best use of the money he'd get.
The money only matters if signing JPP prevents the Giants from signing or extending other players. There's no indication a JPP contract would deter the Giants from signing who they want to sign.
You can say "JPP isn't worth X," for practical purposes it means nothing at this point. Pointless debate unless you can show giving JPP X will prevent the Giants from signing A, B, C.
Unlikely they can or will retain them all. JPP potentially being paid anything close to Vernon eats up a ton of space.
it's been a long, long time since the front four got it done all by itself on any regular basis.
Vernon has been frustrating because, until lately he hasn't really done much. We hear a lot about a wrist/hand injury, so we're expected to accept a lackluster year.
I don't think JPP has had all that stellar a year, either.
good, sure. worth dumping lots of money at? therein lies the debate.
the problem, though, as I said earlier is that I don't think there's anything behind JPP that says we can get sort of close to the same production at a quarter (or even half) of the price. Value without production doesn't mean squat.
I totally disagree -- Vernon and JPP have had an outstanding year and are a large part of the reason why teams are having problems running against the Giants
Vernon is a total stud -- blasting him for being injured is really disingenuous and if you can't see the impact JPP has had on some games -- I think you are just ignoring it. The Giants won at least two games this year entirely on JPPs back.