When do we move on from Ereck Flowers?

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Let's talk offseason today

Mainly because there's no better option. If he stays at this level or regresses even further, I'm in the camp to shift him to ORG next year. Give him a full camp there to get acclimated.

Hopefully he turns it around this year.

But last night it looked like he was playing scared? He played very passive looked like he was avoiding contact quite a bit hence the sack fumble on Eli. IMV it looked like he was trying hard to not get a penalty rather than playing aggressive and being the bully.

you're being impatient..Not having Pugh there certainly has an adverse affect, imv..Let Solari continue to work with him and see if another year yields desired results..Still only 21..Our O in general needs to step up more

is going to happen, except that the Giants will probably give Flowers some help. But his technique is still terrible, and he doesn't look like he has the feet to play LT or RT. Right now, he reminds me of a better version of James Brewer, and not by much. He can be dominant when he locks on, but is easily knocked off balance, and loses leverage quickly. He can't handle speed rushers. Jerry has the same problem. I would bench Flowers for Beatty, and also replace Jerry with Jones. Richburg has also been disappointing, but there is no one to replace him. I would also bench Jennings for Perkins, and Cruz for Lewis.

Flowers is only 22 years old. If he is taught correct technique and footwork, he could be good for many years to come. I think it is premature to want to give up on him as such a young age for a second year player.

For as bad as an effort he put up the first half - he played a great deal better in the 2nd.

I for one think he needs a benching to get his act together, but credit the kid for tightening up.

Take that from the man who wanted Sean Taylor over Eli Manning in 04', and wanted George Rogers instead of LT in 81'. :D

got settled when we started running the ball more consistently.

I know people act as if every run is a give up play here, but you really do need them to mix up the defense's focus, so they just don't pin their ears back and come after Eli.

That's when Flowers was struggling.

But imagine if we had any type of power run game? Imagine if he got to impose his will on that DE in the run game more, I can guarantee they wouldnt want much of him in the pass game.

This is a difficult offense for an OL to shine in

In comment 13262888 Tom [Giants fan] said:

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Flowers is only 22 years old. If he is taught correct technique and footwork, he could be good for many years to come. I think it is premature to want to give up on him as such a young age for a second year player.

When he gets his feet moving and his hands up, he's actually extremely good. Physically he's almost prototypical for the position (maybe there's a slight foot speed issue). The issue is that almost never happens. He's either moving his feet and dropping his hands or standing and grabbing. It's bizarre, he's young but he's not improving on the fundamentals. Even if it was just getting his the hands up, he should be able to get his hands up consistently.

That out of shape?

In comment 13262879 Big Blue '56 said:

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you're being impatient..Not having Pugh there certainly has an adverse affect, imv..Let Solari continue to work with him and see if another year yields desired results..Still only 21..Our O in general needs to step up more

I've heard this statement many times, and to my untrained eye it just doesn't hold water. I can see if defenses were running complicated schemes that required intricate execution by the LT and LG, but he is getting beat on straight one on one type plays. And beat badly. It's bad enough having the RG and RT getting beat badly on that "pick" play by the DT and DE, add in Flowers' inability to win his one on ones and there's no reason this offense is struggling.

I get that technique plays a part in an OT's level of play, but he appears to be regressing. Come this offseason it may be time to try him at guard.

Despite his suspect play we are still 9-4! At the end of the day, you gotta love that!

Not much growth on the line this year. Several fundamental breakdowns keep happening all along the line.

the rest of the way and move Flowers to the bench for the rest of the season. Figure out what do with him in the offseason.

He sucks. Period.

is this idea that he can't be moved or it will hurt his psyche. He's very young still, and may not be emotionally mature enough yet, but I think it's important that every member of the team knows that there is accountability. We've seen it with Rainey, Adams, Apple, Donnell, and probably others I can't think of right now. Why not Flowers, when his play continually costs our team points?

I get that he may be the best LT on the team. I get that he's young. But we have some guys who can play LT. Beatty, Pugh, and Newhouse can all do a serviceable job out there. After a first half like the one Flowers had last night (following weeks of inconsistent play) it might be better to have him sit.

This also goes back to the offseason, where talent is brought in continually and people are told there are no job guarantees. Except Flowers. All potential FA tackle's brought in are told that they are being considered for RT, since LT is already taken.

Why?

Are they that worried about his reaction to a benching?

In comment 13262933 bradshaw44 said:

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That out of shape?

I still dont get it and it makes me want to punch a hole through a wall. I dont care what shape he's in (reports were fantastic when he first signed) but the guy isn't going to forget his technique in a year that made him a solid finesse LT. In the very least, his footwork, ect. will be much better. To me, it's the most maddening part of this entire season. I get wanting to stick with you young guy you spent a huge pick on and hope he improves but it could seriously make a huge difference to this year's chances. Move Flowers to RG where he can just bull over guys and let Beatty protect Eli's blindside, something he did well for many, many seasons. A even half way decent Beatty at LT -Pugh-Richburg-Flowers-Hart could transform this offense.

In comment 13262985 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 13262933 bradshaw44 said: Quote: That out of shape? I still dont get it and it makes me want to punch a hole through a wall. I dont care what shape he's in (reports were fantastic when he first signed) but the guy isn't going to forget his technique in a year that made him a solid finesse LT. In the very least, his footwork, ect. will be much better. To me, it's the most maddening part of this entire season. I get wanting to stick with you young guy you spent a huge pick on and hope he improves but it could seriously make a huge difference to this year's chances. Move Flowers to RG where he can just bull over guys and let Beatty protect Eli's blindside, something he did well for many, many seasons. A even half way decent Beatty at LT -Pugh-Richburg-Flowers-Hart could transform this offense.

Don't we zone block now under Solari? Perhaps Beatty just hasn't picked that up very well. It's not just the case of same scheme he played.

Who knows... I have a sneaky suspicion they simply dont want to shake up the line this late in the season and its frustrating as hell.

In comment 13262888 Tom [Giants fan] said:

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Flowers is only 22 years old. If he is taught correct technique and footwork, he could be good for many years to come. I think it is premature to want to give up on him as such a young age for a second year player.

Flowers seems to be dumb. It was pointed out that he did not play with his hands in the proper position. That is SO basic. I am starting to see him as a wasted pick at #9.

...or placed on waivers.

place a # 9 pick on waivers.

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what's a week without a Flowers thread on Monday eh?
Look, they are not moving him now or making changes after
13 games. I am of the opinion that they should make a decision
by the end of the year. My gut feeling is they will hang
in one more year with him at LT. I don't see them moving him
to guard in the near future as well.

it doesn't even matter who he's going up against, he's going to get beat every week. I just hope going forward, Macadoo finds a way to get him some more help.

In comment 13263039 M.S. said:

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...or placed on waivers.

Waivers? Between this and your bizarre points differential thread, I have to ask. Are you drunk?

Because outside of BBI both are getting killed equally. This is going to be a rough week for the Giants offense. Like I said outside of BBI there is no safe space it appears.

I don't know if that can be coached away. His play is mentally & physically lazy, show no eagerness. Kid has plenty of tools for the game, but seems complete void of any hustle.

his regression is almost more worrisome. He has been a professional football player for 18 months now; yes, he's had a position coach change, but there was some chatter that his unhappiness with Flaherty had something to do with the move to Solari, widely praised here in the spring for his c.v.

Sure, Doc, he's "only" 22, but that should mean he is nimble and coachable, and for an unacceptably long period, that seems not to be the case. To be called out by Collinsworth on a Sunday nighter for just brutal play and technique, how often does that happen? Growing pains? Why can some linemen (Martin, Smith, Conklin, Pouncey, and too many to mention, even a much more pedestrian Bulaga) step in as raw rookies and perform, not drag the entire OL down by his performance?

Troubling questions: to me, his demeanor is murky when he makes mistakes, hard to decipher what is going on inside.

On the offensive side of the ball, the self-scouting after the bye had immediate impact, for one game, and since then it has slid into an ugly-to-watch rut: Flowers is part of that.

His current "technique" is going to cause trouble no matter where you put him.

Only difference is that Eli might merely be crippled rather than killed.

"his demeanor is murky when he makes mistakes"...c'mon man. What do you expect him to do, smile and clap? Punch the ground? You'd bitch about that if he did it.

His scouting report out of college was lack of consistent techniques and nothing has changed. Every week it's the same thing with him in regards to penalties,pressures, and sacks. He's obviously not ready to play and is being forced in there because of his draft status and Reese not admitting a drafting mistake. After watching him last season I thought he should be a guard and there has been nothing in his play to make me think otherwise.
I am still trying figure out why Beatty and Donnell get a uniform?

there are times I look at him, especially after a sequence of poor plays, that it looks like during the next few drop backs, he is mentally going thru the Giants instruction book for LTs dropping into pass blocking:
1. Lift up on hike
2 Kick out quickly to the left at a 45 degree angle,
etc., etc. By the time he does that the play has already happened.
I'm a fan of his, and will also bitch when he's screwed up.His strength are his size and strength. If he shuffles better to the right he's an RT, otherwise a G. Right now hes being misused. But, what do I know?

In comment 13263210 Marty866b said:

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His scouting report out of college was lack of consistent techniques and nothing has changed. Every week it's the same thing with him in regards to penalties,pressures, and sacks. He's obviously not ready to play and is being forced in there because of his draft status and Reese not admitting a drafting mistake. After watching him last season I thought he should be a guard and there has been nothing in his play to make me think otherwise. I am still trying figure out why Beatty and Donnell get a uniform?

Shortly after we drafted him, I exchanged emails with Drew Boylhart on the subject of his technique. I said it was something he would learn in a season or two. He said if that was the case he would have learned it after several years in a strong college program. Now, I think he was right.

At this point whoever called him un-coachable seems to
be right . If your making the same mistakes in basic
fundamentals you have to wonder whats going on inside
his head . Benson Mayowa not exactly a household name
has 3 sacks in two games against him . He is ok in the run
game when Pugh is in but he is a liability in the pass
game . Newhouse isn't much better and Hart struggled early
against Dallas early on as well . Lets hope Eli doesn't
get up from one of his blunders before the season is done.

In comment 13262905 x meadowlander said:

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Take that from the man who wanted Sean Taylor over Eli Manning in 04', and wanted George Rogers instead of LT in 81'. :D

That's what I would do. Flowers looks like a guard right now. Pugh could probably hold his own in pass pro. He is not really strong enough to go against 340 lb DTs

But I think they should try playing him somewhere else on the line for now. Would we be worse off playing Beatty @ LT and flipping Flowers over to RT? I honestly don't know. But I think it might be time to find out.

And if this is still being discussed this time next year, we need to try him at Guard or right tackle in year 4 and if he still plays poorly, bye bye another top 10 bust. How many good players have we picked in the top 10 in the past two decades? Eli and who else? I'll wait... I did say i wanted Gurley that year, didn't I?

In comment 13262970 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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the rest of the way and move Flowers to the bench for the rest of the season. Figure out what do with him in the offseason. He sucks. Period.

na, you suck

You do realize Flowers is one of the best run blockers on this team. Yes he does miss some of his pulling assignments but his power is elite.

whether he reains a starter or what at LT down the line is in question. What is troublesome is his breakdown in technique, and last night, for some some ungodly reason, regressed badly. Maybe just a bad night or what.

You have to see if he can work it out. If not, then you move on. I doubt that won't happen a couple seasons and possibly putting at a different spot on line. Solari and the Giants know what they have and will try their best to straighten him out. But he needs to get his act together soon or upward swing because he's not going to last especially putting your QB at risk.

and I'm sure this opinion won't be shared by many. But, I thought Flowers didn't actually have that bad of a game.

He had 2 plays in pass protection where he looked simply awful. On those 2 plays there is no defending his horrible technique and the result that followed. Beyond those 2 plays, though he was generally pretty good in pass protection. There were a couple other minor blips, but nothing outrageous. After watching the game live, I was very down on Flowers because those 2 plays were so awful(and the one resulted in a turnover when the Giants were threatening).

Flowers has struggles in pass protection, and he needs work there. But, I thought overall his pass protection was better in this game than it has been in most games and certainly better than his recent games. He has been struggling a lot, so that's not a strong endorsement of his play last night. But, I think his two really bad plays are making people think he played worse the whole game than he really did.

In comment 13263551 cnewk said:

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and I'm sure this opinion won't be shared by many. But, I thought Flowers didn't actually have that bad of a game. He had 2 plays in pass protection where he looked simply awful. On those 2 plays there is no defending his horrible technique and the result that followed. Beyond those 2 plays, though he was generally pretty good in pass protection. There were a couple other minor blips, but nothing outrageous. After watching the game live, I was very down on Flowers because those 2 plays were so awful(and the one resulted in a turnover when the Giants were threatening). Flowers has struggles in pass protection, and he needs work there. But, I thought overall his pass protection was better in this game than it has been in most games and certainly better than his recent games. He has been struggling a lot, so that's not a strong endorsement of his play last night. But, I think his two really bad plays are making people think he played worse the whole game than he really did.

It's funny because during the game and with some of the replays of Flowers' particularly bad plays, I wondered how you would assess his performance and if perhaps Flowers might be the topic of the much-appreciated weekly cnewk breakdowns. Perhaps the really bad plays do overshadow a more solid performance but there is certainly some tape to work with him on in terms of what not to do (like keeping your hands down practically to his sides - how can you stop anyone like that?). If they are trying to teach him better technique, it feels like it is taking a long time for it to sink in.

In comment 13263551 cnewk said:

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and I'm sure this opinion won't be shared by many. But, I thought Flowers didn't actually have that bad of a game. He had 2 plays in pass protection where he looked simply awful. On those 2 plays there is no defending his horrible technique and the result that followed. Beyond those 2 plays, though he was generally pretty good in pass protection. There were a couple other minor blips, but nothing outrageous. After watching the game live, I was very down on Flowers because those 2 plays were so awful(and the one resulted in a turnover when the Giants were threatening). Flowers has struggles in pass protection, and he needs work there. But, I thought overall his pass protection was better in this game than it has been in most games and certainly better than his recent games. He has been struggling a lot, so that's not a strong endorsement of his play last night. But, I think his two really bad plays are making people think he played worse the whole game than he really did.

During the game they showed a graphic that Ereck Flowers is at the bottom of the league in QB pressures, Sacks allowed and technique according to Pro Football Focus

Jerry will be 31 before next season.

In comment 13263551 cnewk said:

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and I'm sure this opinion won't be shared by many. But, I thought Flowers didn't actually have that bad of a game. He had 2 plays in pass protection where he looked simply awful. On those 2 plays there is no defending his horrible technique and the result that followed. Beyond those 2 plays, though he was generally pretty good in pass protection. There were a couple other minor blips, but nothing outrageous. After watching the game live, I was very down on Flowers because those 2 plays were so awful(and the one resulted in a turnover when the Giants were threatening). Flowers has struggles in pass protection, and he needs work there. But, I thought overall his pass protection was better in this game than it has been in most games and certainly better than his recent games. He has been struggling a lot, so that's not a strong endorsement of his play last night. But, I think his two really bad plays are making people think he played worse the whole game than he really did.

The problem isn't with him not looking good at times. It's just that he's so damn inconsistent that his only inconsistency is that he singularly is responsible for killing at least 1-2 drives every game. It's almost like 7-10 points a game are off the board because of one player.

That's terrible, and he should be benched to make a point that every player is accountable for their performance. Anyway, that's what I'd do.

In comment 13262863 bigblue1124 said:

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But last night it looked like he was playing scared? He played very passive looked like he was avoiding contact quite a bit hence the sack fumble on Eli. IMV it looked like he was trying hard to not get a penalty rather than playing aggressive and being the bully.

I never thought of that but now that I do think about it you could very well be right, he may be afraid of getting called for holding or whatever because he's been getting so many of them lately...

In comment 13262910 Aaroninma said:

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But imagine if we had any type of power run game? Imagine if he got to impose his will on that DE in the run game more, I can guarantee they wouldnt want much of him in the pass game. This is a difficult offense for an OL to shine in

I think the only way Flowers will get to impose his will on anybody will be from the guard position

In comment 13263090 B in ALB said:

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In comment 13263039 M.S. said: Quote: ...or placed on waivers. Waivers? Between this and your bizarre points differential thread, I have to ask. Are you drunk?

Two things... I thought good ol' boys from the South had a sense of humor, or at least could recognize it when it's used. Two -- I got two close cousins who are Master Distillers right outside Bardsville, KY, and I'll tell ya one thing... if I'm drunk, it damn well better be on their sour mash. 9-4 baby... and headed to the playoffs with a minor league offensive line. Next year... Super Bowl.

that his hands need to be up? What was his wonderlic"

But I'd like to see him moved somewhere else on the line. He's clearly not the answer at LT.

How about right now. He absolutely sucks and he's killing the team and especially Manning. I don't know what it's going to take for Jerry the clown to acknowledge that the guy is not a LT and never will be. He simply cannot slide to his left to defend outside rushers and that is a deal breaker. I had thought he might make a good RT (like others did) but I'm not even sure he can handle that either. His technique is so bad it's hard to imagine how Jerry the clown could have made him the 9th pick in the draft. Maybe the only possibility is inside as a mauling guard. Until that happens I'd this is looking more and more like a blown pick by, yes, Jerry the clown.

In comment 13263422 est1986 said:

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And if this is still being discussed this time next year, we need to try him at Guard or right tackle in year 4 and if he still plays poorly, bye bye another top 10 bust. How many good players have we picked in the top 10 in the past two decades? Eli and who else? I'll wait... I did say i wanted Gurley that year, didn't I?

We didn't pick Eli.

In comment 13263152 ColHowPepper said:

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his regression is almost more worrisome. He has been a professional football player for 18 months now; yes, he's had a position coach change, but there was some chatter that his unhappiness with Flaherty had something to do with the move to Solari, widely praised here in the spring for his c.v. Sure, Doc, he's "only" 22, but that should mean he is nimble and coachable, and for an unacceptably long period, that seems not to be the case. To be called out by Collinsworth on a Sunday nighter for just brutal play and technique, how often does that happen? Growing pains? Why can some linemen (Martin, Smith, Conklin, Pouncey, and too many to mention, even a much more pedestrian Bulaga) step in as raw rookies and perform, not drag the entire OL down by his performance? Troubling questions: to me, his demeanor is murky when he makes mistakes, hard to decipher what is going on inside. On the offensive side of the ball, the self-scouting after the bye had immediate impact, for one game, and since then it has slid into an ugly-to-watch rut: Flowers is part of that.

100% agree. Flowers seems to be regressing the longer he's our starting LT. Also agree about the comment about coachability. The reality of today's NFL is that the players who excel show signs of growth by their second season. Yes, they will have moments of mental gaffs where they get out maneuvered but Flowers is just flat out a piss poor LT. PFF has him as one of the worst LT in the league.

Reese's refusal to admit his mistake about Flowers being a LT (just because he drafted him so high) may ultimately prove to be Reese's undoing. Bad enough he made the pick but his arrogance in refusing to admit it and move the guy to a position he's more suited for is very troubling and is hurting the offense in many ways. But it would appear that Jerry is more concerned about his reputation than team performance.

In comment 13264803 johnboyw said:

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Reese's refusal to admit his mistake about Flowers being a LT (just because he drafted him so high) may ultimately prove to be Reese's undoing. Bad enough he made the pick but his arrogance in refusing to admit it and move the guy to a position he's more suited for is very troubling and is hurting the offense in many ways. But it would appear that Jerry is more concerned about his reputation than team performance.

I'm thinking that its time for one of the owners to step in and voice his opinion on this Flowers situation and tell Reese what they feel about it instead of sitting back and watching this team fall out of a shot at the playoffs, there has to be an alternative move they can make

If he can't earn our starting LT position on merit he can be moved to another position. All it means is he won't be getting 'LT money' on his first contract extension. These young men don't get the same ridiculous rookie contracts that previous generations of players did. If he can mold a Robert Gallery type career out of his abilities he can still be a successful player for the NY Giants.