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Dallas - Too many men on the field

cnewk : 12/12/2016 9:52 am
I was re-watching some of the came and noticed this play. I don't know if anyone else caught it.

It was 3rd and 5 for the Giants at their own 15. The Cowboys were trying to get some quick substitutions, and Eli does a good job going for a quick snap and catching the defense with too many men on the field. Unfortunately the refs missed it. Collinsworth misses badly on his description too. He shows the replay and highlights that what Eli is trying to do, but doesn't comment on the fact that the 2 of the Cowboys had not gotten off the field when the ball was snapped.

The question is, should McAdoo have challenged the play since that is one of the few penalties that are reviewable. The penalty would have likely gotten them a first down, though it's possible it would have been 3rd and inches.

You never know when you will need the challenges, but I tend to think this was a missed opportunity by the coaches. If you can get a first down rather than be forced to punt, I think you do it. I'm not sure what camera view the coaches have access to in order to make these decisions, so it could be excusable, but it was definitely unfortunate the refs missed it.

Here is a screen shot that shows the extra men.
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Touch to tell with that screen grab  
Scyber : 12/12/2016 10:05 am : link
I'll be curious to see if they were on the field when the all 22 video is released on game pass. Usually on Wednesday IIRC.
RE: Do you have a screen shot  
cnewk : 12/12/2016 10:07 am : link
In comment 13262902 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
of this with the ball being snapped and 12 (or more) Cowboys still on the field.

Because in this screen grab, while the players are still on the field, the ball hasn't been snapped yet.


This is all I have. But, at the time of the screen shot the ball is inbetween Richburg's legs on the way to Eli. The play has started.
such an odd play  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/12/2016 10:07 am : link
Eli clearly thought he had a free one, so he lobs it up the sideline for Beckham and it almost gets picked. Is this something they can challenge? I suppose if it had gotten picked, we would have gotten more info.

But thanks NBC for not showing the all 22 when the ball was snapped, so we could tell if was a bad call or not.
cnewk  
old man : 12/12/2016 10:09 am : link
I saw at least 1(#59) if not 2(#96?) were about a yard away when ball got past WRs butt on the snap.
Challenge? Not sure he'd want to risk a 2nd half TO, then, after the refs did not catch it, not to may have been the better choice.
I guess all of us have our zoom set higher than 100% for screen  
bigblue1124 : 12/12/2016 10:10 am : link
As I do but if you reduce it to the normal level you can see three players still on the field.

It was a BS play should have been a flag.
I remember the play  
blueblood'11 : 12/12/2016 10:10 am : link
There were two maybe three guys running off the field after Eli had the ball in his hands. Clearly too many men on the field. Refs missed it and so did Collinsworth.
There are a couple of times..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:10 am : link
this happens:

Quote:
Is there another play where you can accept two penalties?


If there are two unsportsmanlike penalties or personal fouls on one team, both will be enforced. Also, a personal foul on a delay of game will result in two fouls being enforced, but that might be because one is considered a dead ball foul.
It looked like.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:13 am : link
the 3rd guy just gets off the field, but two guys are on it still.

CC didn't really miss it, he just didn't focus on it. He made a snarky comment about rushing the play, which was interesting, because Rodgers did this twice yesterday - one was a penalty and one offset because the offense wasn't set fully, but each time, they talked about what a genius Rodgers is at knowing what the opponent is doing. CC seemed to act as if Eli just rushed the play for fuck's sake.
RE: Touch to tell with that screen grab  
cnewk : 12/12/2016 10:13 am : link
In comment 13262938 Scyber said:
Quote:
I'll be curious to see if they were on the field when the all 22 video is released on game pass. Usually on Wednesday IIRC.


I'm sure the all 22 video will show it more clearly, but I think it seems pretty clear that at least number 95 is still on the field. You can't tell how far on the field, and it looks like number 59 is pretty far out on the field as well and looks like he is walking.

A screenshot from the all 22 video would show just how egregious the missed call was, but I feel confident that it was definitely a missed call.
I rewound it when they went..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:14 am : link
to commercial last night, and when the ball was in Eli's hands, two players still have a foot on the field. And that's when the ball was in his hand.
I thought there were a few plays  
BurlyMan : 12/12/2016 10:14 am : link
where the Dallas offensive line leans into a lunge just before the snap.
RE: There are a couple of times..  
pjcas18 : 12/12/2016 10:15 am : link
In comment 13262964 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this happens:



Quote:


Is there another play where you can accept two penalties?



If there are two unsportsmanlike penalties or personal fouls on one team, both will be enforced. Also, a personal foul on a delay of game will result in two fouls being enforced, but that might be because one is considered a dead ball foul.


Good point, I wonder if a dead ball foul makes it different allowing two penalties to be accepted.

only thing I can think of why the rule is that way.
Every game..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:16 am : link
the Dallas OL gets away with a few to several false starts. It is mind boggling to me.

Worse - it isn't just in games against us which means it is serially ignored. It's become a joke among the fans I know.
RE: Every game..  
giants#1 : 12/12/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13262996 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Dallas OL gets away with a few to several false starts. It is mind boggling to me.

Worse - it isn't just in games against us which means it is serially ignored. It's become a joke among the fans I know.


Usually it's just Smith jumping early (at least that I've noticed). And Jason Peters gets away with it early often too.

Last night was the first time I noticed their OGs leaving early. It wasn't even close on one play. I think Leary was engaged with the DT before Prescott even had the ball.
RE: There are a couple of times..  
Mike from Ohio : 12/12/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13262964 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this happens:



Quote:


Is there another play where you can accept two penalties?



If there are two unsportsmanlike penalties or personal fouls on one team, both will be enforced. Also, a personal foul on a delay of game will result in two fouls being enforced, but that might be because one is considered a dead ball foul.


I think the difference is that both penalties occured during the play. If the play was over and blown dead, and then the roughing happened, I think you would have had the PI and the roughing call. When two fouls both happen during the play, I don't think they ever enforce both.
RE: Every game..  
cnewk : 12/12/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13262996 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Dallas OL gets away with a few to several false starts. It is mind boggling to me.

Worse - it isn't just in games against us which means it is serially ignored. It's become a joke among the fans I know.


Dallas got away with a couple delay of games too. Each time I was calling for the penalty, and then expecting to see the flag after the Giants made the defensive stop.....
I noticed at least two delay  
pjcas18 : 12/12/2016 10:23 am : link
of game penalties.

Do the referees use the scoreboard clock or do they have another device they use to see delay of game.

I mean it's kind of hard for them to watch both the ball and the game clock on the scoreboard, how do they see both the clock and the ball? stopwatch in their hand?
On the critical 3rd and 2  
B in ALB : 12/12/2016 10:23 am : link
During Dallas' td drive #68 false started allowing Elliott to pick up the first down. It should have been 3rd and 7. And on the next play they hit the wide open td. I couldn't believe the refs missed it. It was so Fucking obvious.
RE: I noticed at least two delay  
giants#1 : 12/12/2016 10:25 am : link
In comment 13263026 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
of game penalties.

Do the referees use the scoreboard clock or do they have another device they use to see delay of game.

I mean it's kind of hard for them to watch both the ball and the game clock on the scoreboard, how do they see both the clock and the ball? stopwatch in their hand?


I believe the back judge is responsible for calling delay. Most stadiums have a game clock field level and he usually has an angle where he can see that clock and the snap.
We got away with one as well  
bigblue1124 : 12/12/2016 10:26 am : link
late in the game even my wife said WTF Eli hike the damn ball and then shit#@$&%$$#^&//? I looked at her and said you saw that huh and laughed. Both of us exspected a flag that never came so IMV it's a wash.

RE: On the critical 3rd and 2  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 10:26 am : link
In comment 13263028 B in ALB said:
Quote:
During Dallas' td drive #68 false started allowing Elliott to pick up the first down. It should have been 3rd and 7. And on the next play they hit the wide open td. I couldn't believe the refs missed it. It was so Fucking obvious.


This has been going on FOREVER. Remember Andre Gurode and his snaps that were routinely a half second after the rest of the OL moved? That was never called.
There's at least..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:27 am : link
one situation where this happens:

Quote:
When two fouls both happen during the play, I don't think they ever enforce both.


If there are multiple personal fouls or unsportsmanlike penalties, all of them will be enforced - if they are on the same team.

However, this rarely happens since most unsportsmanlike penalties are dead ball fouls.
Everybody see Kennard get away with facemask on Elliott as well?  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2016 10:30 am : link
bad calls go both ways as much as we think they only affect Giants...
Slightly different tack here ...  
Beezer : 12/12/2016 10:32 am : link

Since so little has been said (I'm not going anywhere near the game thread), and virtually ZIP was said last night ...

Anyone know what the explanation was on the defensive holding on the D-line? Was it Hank or Snacks? Can't recall. (Thinking Hank.)

Neither guy in the booth said a word.
Did we substitute on that play?  
Mike in NY : 12/12/2016 10:36 am : link
Because if we did Dallas is allowed to make changes of their own
We didn't substitute..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:37 am : link
and even if we did, it is the officials responsibility to halt the snap of the ball until Dallas is set.

It wouldn't wipe out the too many men issue.
Here  
KWhite2250 : 12/12/2016 10:40 am : link
Geez..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:42 am : link
59 isn't even hustling to get off and gets rewarded for it.
Ugh  
KWhite2250 : 12/12/2016 10:42 am : link
Dont know how to make it smaller but the yellow circle shows another guy on the field and the ball going back to eli. That 1 guy in the pic is def on the field still
The delays of game  
Marty866b : 12/12/2016 10:49 am : link
Were so obvious. Dallas snapped the ball almost a full second after the play clock read zero. No mention of it for the Dallas loving announcers.
The two many men on the field should have been contested by McAdoo.
not for nothing  
micky : 12/12/2016 10:51 am : link
aren't they close enough to sideline to be called as well as the ball not being snapped yet? It's not like they were at hash marks or close to the outside numbers?
RE: The delays of game  
figgy2989 : 12/12/2016 10:52 am : link
In comment 13263158 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Were so obvious. Dallas snapped the ball almost a full second after the play clock read zero. No mention of it for the Dallas loving announcers.
The two many men on the field should have been contested by McAdoo.


That last Dallas play was infuriating. All the Giants LB's are calling for the flag and they still hadn't snapped the ball.
sorry saw second photo and ball snapped  
micky : 12/12/2016 10:52 am : link
but they were boarderline it looks
RE: Did we substitute on that play?  
giants#1 : 12/12/2016 10:53 am : link
In comment 13263092 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
Because if we did Dallas is allowed to make changes of their own


No. Refs would've (or should've) prevented the snap if that was the case.
micky..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:53 am : link
the rule is cut and dried. You can't be on the field. Belicheck has won challenges where defenders barely have a foot in the field of play.

We would've won a challenge, but you can't use a possible last challenge to get 5 yards at that point in the game, IMO. That's why the ref who looked right at the fumble and didn't rule Free down screwed us.

RE: micky..  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 10:56 am : link
In comment 13263180 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the rule is cut and dried. You can't be on the field. Belicheck has won challenges where defenders barely have a foot in the field of play.


Hell, wasn't one of them against the Giants in a Super Bowl? I think it was Blackburn that he caught with a foot on the field.
RE: What about the  
Wuphat : 12/12/2016 10:58 am : link
In comment 13262900 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
defensive holding on the running play that was tacked on to the end of the run? I don't think I have ever seen that called before.


This was a head scratcher for sure. I've never seen an DLineman called for holding on a run before.
Greg..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 10:58 am : link
yes it was! Good catch.
and I prove myself right!!  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 10:59 am : link
It was Blackburn in XLII

Quote:
Penalty on Chase Blackburn: Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards (no play)

NWE challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was overturned. Penalty on Chase Blackburn: Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards (no play)
RE: RE: What about the  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 11:02 am : link
In comment 13263205 Wuphat said:
Quote:
This was a head scratcher for sure. I've never seen an DLineman called for holding on a run before.


I had to look that one up because I don't think I've ever seen that call either. Apparently a DL can't hold a pulling OL. That's the only thing I could find that would explain such a call.
It would be interesting to see a pic showing whole field  
micky : 12/12/2016 11:02 am : link
and where the side judge was and where he was looking at this time.
it's rarely called  
giants#1 : 12/12/2016 11:08 am : link
though it's been called on the Giants a few times. Wasn't Keith Hamilton called for it in the SB negating Armstead's pick 6?

Vaguely remember another Giants DT being called for holding in the last ~5 years or so too.
RE: it's rarely called  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 11:14 am : link
In comment 13263253 giants#1 said:
Quote:
though it's been called on the Giants a few times. Wasn't Keith Hamilton called for it in the SB negating Armstead's pick 6?

Vaguely remember another Giants DT being called for holding in the last ~5 years or so too.


That was on a screen pass, which is not as unusual. Problem with that one was that Hamilton didn't hold anyone.
point being that defensive holding on a running play is almost unheard  
Greg from LI : 12/12/2016 11:15 am : link
of
RE: Do you have a screen shot  
BillT : 12/12/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13262902 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
of this with the ball being snapped and 12 (or more) Cowboys still on the field.

Because in this screen grab, while the players are still on the field, the ball hasn't been snapped yet.

I think you're wrong. Richburg's right hand is in motion and off the ground. The ball is hidden behind him but it's been snapped. I believe.
What is ironic..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/12/2016 12:00 pm : link
is that the Cowboys just the previous series used their DL to take out two Giants OL to free up another pass rusher.

That is supposed to be considered holding, yet one series later, the flag comes out - on us!
RE: RE: Do you have a screen shot  
pjcas18 : 12/12/2016 12:10 pm : link
In comment 13263452 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13262902 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


of this with the ball being snapped and 12 (or more) Cowboys still on the field.

Because in this screen grab, while the players are still on the field, the ball hasn't been snapped yet.



I think you're wrong. Richburg's right hand is in motion and off the ground. The ball is hidden behind him but it's been snapped. I believe.


Someone posted one that shows the ball snapped and players on the field. In the original the ball is not seen, so it's impossible to say I'm wrong based on that screen shot.
RE: RE: RE: Do you have a screen shot  
cnewk : 12/12/2016 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13263496 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13263452 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13262902 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


of this with the ball being snapped and 12 (or more) Cowboys still on the field.

Because in this screen grab, while the players are still on the field, the ball hasn't been snapped yet.



I think you're wrong. Richburg's right hand is in motion and off the ground. The ball is hidden behind him but it's been snapped. I believe.



Someone posted one that shows the ball snapped and players on the field. In the original the ball is not seen, so it's impossible to say I'm wrong based on that screen shot.


The original photo shows Richburg's right arm between his legs as he is snapping the ball. You can't see the ball, since it is behind him, but it is clearly after the snap.

Regardless, I'd love to see a shot from the all-22 video that would show how far on the field the players were. I suspect it was not even close, and was an awful missed call by the refs.
I see it now  
pjcas18 : 12/12/2016 12:18 pm : link
I saw the Cowboys players helmet and didn't see Richburg's hand with the ball and thought it was still on the ground, my bad.
There is always an extra second on the delay of game call  
Mighty : 12/12/2016 12:24 pm : link
One of the refs is looking solely at the play clock. When the clock hits zero he looks up and if it isnt snapped then he throws the flag. So in that split second after it hits zero and he looks up you can get away with it. ! of the two plays though i thought it was a good 2 seconds after the play clock expired
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