McShay Mock 1.0--Giants select D'Onta Foreman, RB, Texas

Giants tend to want speed and explosive ability from high draft picks on offense. They look for weapons.

posts "the Giants are NOT drafting a RB in the first round. If you think the Giants are using a 1st round pick on a RB you obviously haven't been paying attention to Jerry Reese..."

and we'll have 2012 all over again. While I doubt this pick I've never been one to say what will or won't happen in the draft, especially in December.

I think everyone knows this but they really are useless until after free agency.

According to OTC(Over the Cap) We'll have about 26 million BEFORE any roster transactions.

This team could be REALLY good the next two/three years.

Giants drafting a RB. Aside from Wilson it doesn't happen. As mentioned above, until FA happens, we don't know what direction they will be looking. I think OL and WR will be the primary looks as usual, with the DL as an alternative.

As much as I fight it, VC is not getting it done. They need to get the QB more time, also.

has Kiper looked at the Giants roster/needs and then projected a LB to them ...

...again

.

As many urgent needs as possible will get hit before the draft.

both tackles and guards will be available in free agency this year. I'd expect a move or two there, especially since we are a win now type of team.

I'd rather they try to get a OL, TE, WR, DE, S, CB, or DT. Too early to predict what would be available at their pick. This team is likely cutting Cruz, could lose JPP, and could lose Hankins. DRC isn't getting younger either and the S spot beside Collins isn't really stable at this point. Our TEs can't block and aren't big threats thus far. Lots of room for improvement.

Another running back is wasted in this current offense, especially when the Giants could have Vereen and Perkins to split the main role and Jennings to back them up.

I like the premise of it. Build a power running offense. Whether you get the TEs, OTs, WRs and RBs through either FA or the draft is TBD. It's going to be the 2016 offense except the splurging will be on the offense (outside re-signing our own guys).

If we came away with say Brandon Marshall, Jack Doyle, an offensive tackle or two (whitworth on a short deal) and Freeman I wouldn't be disappointed

and people want to cut everyone. It's highly unlikely they cut both Jennings and Vereen. Rainey is an UFA, so that would leave them with just Perkins and Darkwa (who's an RFA himself). Unless you want them using 2 draft picks (and signing another 1-2 UDFAs) on RBs, you've gotta assume they will keep at least one of the vets. You need 4 healthy RBs to start the season.

You're not even saving a ton by cutting either of them. Vereen will save $3.75M in cap space and Jennings only $2.5M. So if you cut both, what FA(s) are you signing to replace them? I know everyone hates Jennings, but is it really worth $1.8M to downgrade from Jennings to a Rainey-level player?

Cruz is likely to be cut or forced to take a paycut again. But the cap savings are pretty significant ($7.5M). You can probably use that money to sign a mid-level WR to replace him or to sign a solid RG.

Harris is unlikely to go anywhere. Losing him would be a huge hit to the special teams and it would only free up $1.4M in cap space. Maybe after the 2017 season you consider cutting bait there.

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In comment 13267014 Patrick77 said:

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I'd rather they try to get a OL, TE, WR, DE, S, CB, or DT. Too early to predict what would be available at their pick. This team is likely cutting Cruz, could lose JPP, and could lose Hankins. DRC isn't getting younger either and the S spot beside Collins isn't really stable at this point. Our TEs can't block and aren't big threats thus far. Lots of room for improvement. Another running back is wasted in this current offense, especially when the Giants could have Vereen and Perkins to split the main role and Jennings to back them up.

Patrick, the Giants will keep, at least, one of JPP or Hankins and I think they keep both. Who cares how old DRC is, he's still playing great football and any FA would cost more than he does.
They'll save money on cutting Cruz, Thomas and maybe Will Johnson $10.5 to $11.5 mill.

In comment 13267028 giants#1 said:

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and people want to cut everyone. It's highly unlikely they cut both Jennings and Vereen. Rainey is an UFA, so that would leave them with just Perkins and Darkwa (who's an RFA himself). Unless you want them using 2 draft picks (and signing another 1-2 UDFAs) on RBs, you've gotta assume they will keep at least one of the vets. You need 4 healthy RBs to start the season. You're not even saving a ton by cutting either of them. Vereen will save $3.75M in cap space and Jennings only $2.5M. So if you cut both, what FA(s) are you signing to replace them? I know everyone hates Jennings, but is it really worth $1.8M to downgrade from Jennings to a Rainey-level player? Cruz is likely to be cut or forced to take a paycut again. But the cap savings are pretty significant ($7.5M). You can probably use that money to sign a mid-level WR to replace him or to sign a solid RG. Harris is unlikely to go anywhere. Losing him would be a huge hit to the special teams and it would only free up $1.4M in cap space. Maybe after the 2017 season you consider cutting bait there.

I agree with the overall sentiment but is Jennings anymore than a replacement level RB at this point? If they like a RB in the first few rounds I don't think having Jennings on your roster forces you to pass up on one. There are a bunch of rookie RBs the past two years that easily give you jennings' production and then some.

is NYG has shown zero interest or move towards building a power running game.

It's not to say they won't do it, but there appears no evidence they will either, at this time.

to grab Christian McCaffrey with our late first round pick. I don't think he falls to us. I would say at this point we know our team needs but I doubt we go OL again first round of this draft I would bet that Reese will go for a WR or TE with this pick if the talent is there when we pick.

In comment 13267046 JonC said:

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is NYG has shown zero interest or move towards building a power running game. It's not to say they won't do it, but there appears no evidence they will either, at this time.

Lol what has NYG shown interest in building on offense?

From running the ball straight up the gut on 1st down only to be stopped at the LOS over and over and over indicates to me they "want" to run the ball but are incapable of doing so. The run game was decent enough the last 2 years for Eli to have a career revival. Now that it's completely diminished Eli looks lost on the football field.

on QB and WR, primarily. There's no power running components in the unit, currently.

Do they know what they're doing in terms of scouting is another discussion.

In comment 13267059 jtfuoco said:

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to grab Christian McCaffrey with our late first round pick. I don't think he falls to us. I would say at this point we know our team needs but I doubt we go OL again first round of this draft I would bet that Reese will go for a WR or TE with this pick if the talent is there when we pick.

I think he's a back end of the 1st type guy as he is not built like an every down back (200 pounds). If they nab Mccaffrey I'd think they'd let go of vereen.

In comment 13266969 pjcas18 said:

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posts "the Giants are NOT drafting a RB in the first round. If you think the Giants are using a 1st round pick on a RB you obviously haven't been paying attention to Jerry Reese..." and we'll have 2012 all over again. While I doubt this pick I've never been one to say what will or won't happen in the draft, especially in December.

That was amazing wasn't it? I rather enjoyed watching all of the absolutists eating crow after David Wilson was selected.

I'm not saying I want him starting or that I don't want them drafting any RBs. I'm saying it's foolish to think the Giants will cut Jennings [b]and[/i] Vereen as a previous poster claims. That would leave them with just 2 RBs (Perkins, Darkwa) on the roster.

upon as the bell cow next year. He + Vereen are part of a decent backfield, nothing more. I'd offer to bring back Jennings as the #4/O.J. Anderson late season insurance.

But we need a lead dog with skill. Gilbride said the same thing on his way out the door.

Jerry
Newhouse
JPP
Hankins
Robinson

Other than Adams and Johnson they don't have a TE signed into next season if I read sporttrac right. When they cut Cruz they need to replace him.

My concern with DRC is that he is a starter who is getting older. At this point the Giants basically start 3 very good corners and the depth behind them is relatively weak. I think a high draft pick can be worked in slowly to replace DRC when his contract expires. Kind of how worst case at DT is Bromley taking over for Hankins. It's hardly a top priority but this team in recent history has been very good when they have a lot of depth at DE and CB.

Spending a high draft pick on a running back when the Giants have 3 capable ones and horrid blocking is crazy - unless the guy is a generational talent or they fix all the other areas. This team could be very good next year if they judge and get talent like they did last offseason.

In comment 13267070 JonC said:

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on QB and WR, primarily. There's no power running components in the unit, currently. Do they know what they're doing in terms of scouting is another discussion.

Not disagreeing with that. But there needs to be SOME semblance of a run game. If we Could just get our rushing attack closer to 4.0 ypc (still below average but we are currently at 3.4) I don't doubt we could consistently build up 7-10 point leads heading into the 4th quarter.

In comment 13267073 Brown Recluse said:

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In comment 13266969 pjcas18 said: Quote: posts "the Giants are NOT drafting a RB in the first round. If you think the Giants are using a 1st round pick on a RB you obviously haven't been paying attention to Jerry Reese..." and we'll have 2012 all over again. While I doubt this pick I've never been one to say what will or won't happen in the draft, especially in December. That was amazing wasn't it? I rather enjoyed watching all of the absolutists eating crow after David Wilson was selected.

To counter that the guy the Bucs traded up and sniped 1 pick ahead of David Wilson put up 2 all pro seasons.

Jennings WAS a solid #2 - that's what he's been his entire career until we signed him. He is now 31. Even that ship has sailed.

As I am repeating myself now, he does carry some value as a depth guy who can play any situation. Even then, you'd have to be OK with that player not playing specials and he would have to agree to a paycut.

But I think he knows his days of making big $$$ are over.

they need to move on from Jerry and potentially Hart, and spend some UFA dollars to upgrade both positions, as a start. The decision tree should include where Flowers is best suited, but we know they tend to be deliberate with such changes.

In comment 13267082 Patrick77 said:

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Jerry Newhouse JPP Hankins Robinson Other than Adams and Johnson they don't have a TE signed into next season if I read sporttrac right. When they cut Cruz they need to replace him. My concern with DRC is that he is a starter who is getting older. At this point the Giants basically start 3 very good corners and the depth behind them is relatively weak. I think a high draft pick can be worked in slowly to replace DRC when his contract expires. Kind of how worst case at DT is Bromley taking over for Hankins. It's hardly a top priority but this team in recent history has been very good when they have a lot of depth at DE and CB. Spending a high draft pick on a running back when the Giants have 3 capable ones and horrid blocking is crazy - unless the guy is a generational talent or they fix all the other areas. This team could be very good next year if they judge and get talent like they did last offseason.

Tye is an exclusive rights FA so he's basically guaranteed to be back.

In comment 13267091 JonC said:

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they need to move on from Jerry and potentially Hart, and spend some UFA dollars to upgrade both positions, as a start. The decision tree should include where Flowers is best suited, but we know they tend to be deliberate with such changes.

No doubt. It's like the cowboys selecting Zeke. It wouldn't have made for many teams picking in the range to pick up Zeke (baltimore, jax, etc.) but they had the o line to make it work really well.

If they sign the tackles in FA (maybe move flowers to RT or guard?), drafting a 250 pound back can make teams pay for being formidable up front. Right now we are winning games with defenses knowing that the only thing going for this offense is hoping Odell does some crazy shit every play. Just need to add another dimension. At this point I find it really encouraging that we can win like 9-11 games with an offense this bad.

In comment 13267087 area junc said:

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Jennings WAS a solid #2 - that's what he's been his entire career until we signed him. He is now 31. Even that ship has sailed. As I am repeating myself now, he does carry some value as a depth guy who can play any situation. Even then, you'd have to be OK with that player not playing specials and he would have to agree to a paycut. But I think he knows his days of making big $$$ are over.

When did Jennings ever make 'big $$$'? He's paid as a vet JAG. And again, I have no problem with them moving on from him (or Vereen). Just pointing out that ONE of those 2 are highly likely to be on the roster in 2017. A healthy Vereen is probably more valuable, but he also costs significantly more than Jennings and you could easily argue that Vereen is more overpaid for his role than Jennings in his role.

draft another OL on Day 2 and add a TE that can block and get down the seam and the running game will be improved even with the current stable of RBs.

It'd be hard to envision the Giants cutting him.

...so why waste a pick like that on a running back which pretty much ignores the real problem?

In comment 13267149 silverfox said:

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...so why waste a pick like that on a running back which pretty much ignores the real problem?

I think the assumption would be that they would spend significant money on the o-line and move some players around otherwise this pick would make 0 sense.

at running back Cook nor Leonard will be there but this guy
is exactly what this team needs . I doubt we take him but
would love it if we did .

that a stud RB like Elliott wouldn't be able to run behind the Giants O-line. I don't think he leads the league in rushing yards, but we've seen flashes of having a decent running game this year. Even Sunday night, the Giants ran for 93 yards. Not bad against the 2nd best run defense in the league. If the Giants had a player like Elliott, he would be doing just fine. People seem to have a tendency to attribute any good running game to the O-line and downplay the impact the RB has.

bring back Jennings next year . Foreman would be a great
pick and give us an explosive 1-2 punch .
Yes they need another young Quality starter . The jury is
still out on Flowers and we can add a Guard in the draft
without using a 1st round pick .
If he is there and the BPA you take him ...

Check this out...

UGH...


Watch Rashad Jennings miss huge hole against the Cowboys (Video) - ( New Window )

In comment 13267111 giants#1 said:

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draft another OL on Day 2 and add a TE that can block and get down the seam and the running game will be improved even with the current stable of RBs.

This!
If they address OL & TE in FA they can go BPA in the draft. Adding a versatile TE that blocks AND is a receiving fills 2 big needs (run & pass). Jennings is expendable but I would keep Vereen. I would love McAfferty (if available) and he is an explosive all aound play maker that Reese leans towards with his high picks but he may not be there. Of course DL and CB are always in the mix with Reese.

In comment 13267174 ShockNRoll said:

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that a stud RB like Elliott wouldn't be able to run behind the Giants O-line. I don't think he leads the league in rushing yards, but we've seen flashes of having a decent running game this year. Even Sunday night, the Giants ran for 93 yards. Not bad against the 2nd best run defense in the league. If the Giants had a player like Elliott, he would be doing just fine. People seem to have a tendency to attribute any good running game to the O-line and downplay the impact the RB has.

It's not just the OL, it's the scheme and philosophy. Dallas is physical and wants to run. They use a TE and FB. The OL mauls people, they don't sit back passively and "influence".

...receiving threat.....

its time...

salary cap carried over from 2016. We have nearly 5 Million to carryover, so we have $31 million in cap space before cutting anyone.

And cut some dead wood we could ALMOST spend like we did last year.

I agree with you 1000%.

I could see a scenario where the Giants cut Vereen because of his health, which I put in parenthesis in the OP. But also because McCaffrey does a lot of the same things as Vereen, plus he's younger, would cost less and he could be a weapon on special teams.

Salary should be based on value, not cost and prudent teams like the Giants have done that before. According to Overthecap the Giants are 6th in spending at the RB position even though we're 31st in rushing yards and ypc. That's not all on the line. That money could be used elsewhere in FA, including improving the line while getting younger and more explosive in the backfield. A depth chart of Perkins, McCaffrey, Darkwa, Will Johnson returning at FB, plus a plethora of RBs available through FA and/or later rounds of the draft as a #4 makes more fiscal sense. It also allows you to build at more valuable and needed positions such as the line on both sides and TE for instance.

Give this group of backs some holes, and the production will be there. I would be shocked if the Giants went RB in the first round. Having said that, I do believe Jennings will either be cut or asked to take a pay-cut to stay. 2017 is the last year of his contract and he is not the future at the position for the Giants.

On the other hand, I continue to be amazed at people thinking the Giants are going to cut Harris this offseason. He was brought here to specifically play special teams and be the last WR option. As such, he plays on 4 special team units and if you did not have him, you would need to bring in multiple players to fill his role. He is not getting cut.

In comment 13267258 WillieYoung said:

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salary cap carried over from 2016. We have nearly 5 Million to carryover, so we have $31 million in cap space before cutting anyone.

I had tweeted their acct last night and they were including the carryover in the # they gave me.

So why not the best RB on the board?

rookie cost controlled contracts give the team the best value at high cost positions like WR/CB, OT/DE

its not an absolute, see D Wilson (who, other than on KOR's, stunk), and I sure hope they would have taken Elliot over Apple if he was there last year, but past behavior is usually the best predictor of future behavior, and

I don't think it is coincidence that so many of the past first round picks have been WR/CB, OT/DE

In comment 13267296 Bernie said:

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On the other hand, I continue to be amazed at people thinking the Giants are going to cut Harris this offseason. He was brought here to specifically play special teams and be the last WR option. As such, he plays on 4 special team units and if you did not have him, you would need to bring in multiple players to fill his role. He is not getting cut.

Because IF, and obviously it's a big if in mid-December, you draft a McCaffrey you don't need Harris. McCaffrey won the Paul Hornung award for most versatile college football player in 2015, an award OBJ won in 2013. In his career at Stanford he's averaged over 11 yards per return on punts and 26 yards per return on kickoffs. That's to go along with over 5000 yards, 31 TDs and nearly 100 catches total rushing and receiving. If you don't take McCaffrey then no big deal but if you do why would you keep Harris who would be among the top 10 highest paid Giants without giving the same return in value?

the 2012 pick of Wilson was a mistake. He fucking fumbled and Coughlin buried him, and then his neck. Perkins will never be what a healthy David Wilson was. Nothing wrong with taking a RB just like Wilson with pick 20-32. A fast pass catching RB would do so much for this team. Not a bruiser, need a fast guy who can beat tacklers in space.
Of course O line is the priority, but if a RB has more value than an O lineman late in the first, then take him. Or a LB. Would be nice to have a legit QB for the defense.

As usual. Foreman doesn't fit the profile. imo.

or OT.....take your pick. Maybe a corner...

priorities go.....

I would not even draft OLmen....we have had Flowers for a couple of seasons, and he still is not ready, and possibly, changes position.....with Eli's window closing, you have to hope that Free agency fills the OL....I think Eli has one, maybe two seasons left after this one....

We still have a lot of needs.....Free safety is still a question mark with Thompson.....we need an animal for a linebacker.....we need a #3 WR....we need a TE.....FB.....If JPP goes, another pass rusher....RB is way down the list...

Giants thought they already had a good OL and needed a RB to take advantage of it. As it turns out, Snee and Baas, who dominated in the 2011 SB run, were both done because of injuries and Diehl and Kareem were running on fumes. Beatty was OK but never quite lived up to the hype.

You don't draft a RB before you have an OL. Little chance Giants take a RB in the 1st unless they decide to fix the OL in free agency, which is unlikely because of JPP and Hankins' free agency.

DE DeMarcus Walker going? That is a guy I really like.

In comment 13267382 sjnyfan said:

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In comment 13267296 Bernie said: Because IF, and obviously it's a big if in mid-December, you draft a McCaffrey you don't need Harris. McCaffrey won the Paul Hornung award for most versatile college football player in 2015, an award OBJ won in 2013. In his career at Stanford he's averaged over 11 yards per return on punts and 26 yards per return on kickoffs. That's to go along with over 5000 yards, 31 TDs and nearly 100 catches total rushing and receiving. If you don't take McCaffrey then no big deal but if you do why would you keep Harris who would be among the top 10 highest paid Giants without giving the same return in value?

Even under this scenario, the total cap savings is only $1.4 million by cutting Harris. I will gladly spend that on a proven ST player.

demonstrates one is missing how good and important he is on special teams. His work alone as a gunner and punt returner is worth the coin.

In comment 13267417 Glover said:

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the 2012 pick of Wilson was a mistake. He fucking fumbled and Coughlin buried him, and then his neck. Perkins will never be what a healthy David Wilson was. Nothing wrong with taking a RB just like Wilson with pick 20-32. A fast pass catching RB would do so much for this team. Not a bruiser, need a fast guy who can beat tacklers in space. Of course O line is the priority, but if a RB has more value than an O lineman late in the first, then take him. Or a LB. Would be nice to have a legit QB for the defense.

This is false. As told a zillion times, per his position coach Jerrold Ingram: Wilson didn't play because he didn't know the playbook and could block in pass pro. He wasn't buried because of a fumble.

In comment 13267750 Victor in CT said:

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In comment 13267417 Glover said: Quote: the 2012 pick of Wilson was a mistake. He fucking fumbled and Coughlin buried him, and then his neck. Perkins will never be what a healthy David Wilson was. Nothing wrong with taking a RB just like Wilson with pick 20-32. A fast pass catching RB would do so much for this team. Not a bruiser, need a fast guy who can beat tacklers in space. Of course O line is the priority, but if a RB has more value than an O lineman late in the first, then take him. Or a LB. Would be nice to have a legit QB for the defense. This is false. As told a zillion times, per his position coach Jerrold Ingram: Wilson didn't play because he didn't know the playbook and could block in pass pro. He wasn't buried because of a fumble.

He got the 2nd carry of the season as a rookie and fumbled it. He was effectively buried for a few weeks from that point.

but Foreman I don't see as a first rounder. Interested to see how he does at the combine, but speed and fumbling is a bit of an issue.

In comment 13266991 section125 said:

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Giants drafting a RB. Aside from Wilson it doesn't happen. As mentioned above, until FA happens, we don't know what direction they will be looking. I think OL and WR will be the primary looks as usual, with the DL as an alternative.

In the weeks before the 2016 draft, I wanted L.Floyd. I changed my mind to actually draft Elliott. Very happy with the Apple bite.


Anywho, IIRC the Giants selected a RB (Wilson) almost strictly out of need. They had no RBs signed save for Bradshaw who was broken down. Damn shame about Wilson's career. I think he'd have been very, very good. :>(

In comment 13267744 JonC said:

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demonstrates one is missing how good and important he is on special teams. His work alone as a gunner and punt returner is worth the coin.

Not at all. Just a suggestion

So it's possible that my opinion is skewed. But when I see Foreman, I see a Dayne clone. He's a big back without a second gear that seemed to have his big runs through huge holes. I didn't see anything to suggest he has the wiggle and short-area quickness to be a good fit behind anything other than a dominant power OL.

that I don't see. There may be questions marks, but not enough to not take him in round 2.

He is a very good RB, but I don't think he is a fit here. That is due to the lack of quality in the OLine and the style of play we use. He needs to get the ball a lot. HE wears down the D and by the 3rd and 4th qtrs he is gashing them. He's much like Lacy was at Alabama. I don't think he is that good of a pass catching guy out of the backfield, and my concern would be he needs a little hole to get going (unlike a shiftier back like Perkins for example). He may not get that here.