Does signing Snacks offset the loss of Linval Joseph?

but I don't think NYG valued LJ at the level you indicate, given the rumor was their offer was in the 5/20-25 range. It suggests he's become a better player than they expected, or they simply were ready to let him go. They paid handsomely in the end for the better, more consistent Snacks.

we lost years off Eli's career. The defense was putrid and a rock like Joseph would have only helped. A duo of Joseph and Hankins would have been great.

I love snacks leadership and passion but letting Joseph go was a mistake.
I do love having snacks on this team.

In comment 13292081 JonC said:

Quote:

but I don't think NYG valued LJ at the level you indicate, given the rumor was their offer was in the 5/20-25 range. It suggests he's become a better player than they expected, or they simply were ready to let him go. They paid handsomely in the end for the better, more consistent Snacks.

What makes you say Snacks is "better" than Joseph?

In comment 13292102 NYGmen58 said:

Quote:

In comment 13292081 JonC said: Quote: but I don't think NYG valued LJ at the level you indicate, given the rumor was their offer was in the 5/20-25 range. It suggests he's become a better player than they expected, or they simply were ready to let him go. They paid handsomely in the end for the better, more consistent Snacks. What makes you say Snacks is "better" than Joseph?

I think Jon was saying that the contract NYG offered indicates that Linval has become better with Minnesota. IIRC, Linval mentioned Minnesota taught him stuff with technique that helped him become a better football player.

.

is elite at his skill - stopping the run. He's the best run stopping DT in football. I'm not saying he's JAG but guys like Joseph are not uncommon in the NFL. He hasn't been that much better in Minnesota as he was with us. I like him but his value is way overrated here considering people's feelings toward Reese. It wasn't a crazy thing to let him walk.

have been fine with Joseph and Hankins. Snacks was also more expensive than Joseph.

and was as both a nose tackle with the Jets and as a 4-3 DT for NYG, a feat suggesting versatility very few have been able to achieve on NFL fields. Snacks also consistently is able to force his play to the other side of the LOS, defeat double-teams, and is more effective generating a push up the middle on the pass rush, to my eye.

Plenty of pressure and run stats out there to back it up, Connor Hughes put some good stuff out some time back. He's also very consistent, something Joseph has often not been able to demonstrate on a weekly basis.

Completely changed the defense.

and sometimes eye-catching LJ during these past two seasons, but he's got to be more consistent and not fail to show up random weeks (a habit he had with NYG as well). At his best, I don't think he's too far behind Snacks, and he might catch the eye more quickly because he's a better athlete.

we suffered a shitty defense for two years without both during Eli's prime.

In comment 13292124 ryanmkeane said:

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is elite at his skill - stopping the run. He's the best run stopping DT in football. I'm not saying he's JAG but guys like Joseph are not uncommon in the NFL. He hasn't been that much better in Minnesota as he was with us. I like him but his value is way overrated here considering people's feelings toward Reese. It wasn't a crazy thing to let him walk.

Harrison and Joseph are on the same level IMO. Who would I prefer? Idk, but I'm glad we have Harrison playing at the level he is playing right now.

2010-2013 featured a lot of players who were part of two championship teams and (rightfully so) got some big-money contracts. Winning Super Bowls tends to inflate player values, and the Giants tried to keep a lot of guys in-house, including some who had big contracts but didn't really play up to them going forward.

Consider in 2014 we had $10m of dead money tied up in Snee, Baas, Webster and Myers, none of whom went on to play a snap for the Giants after 2013.

Our biggest cap hits were Eli ($20.4m), Rolle ($9.3m), Beatty (7.4m), Cruz ($7.4m, IR after 6 games), Kiwi ($5m, Walter Thurmond, Cullen Jenkins, Stevie Brown, J.D. Walton and Jameel McClain.

Not to mention the cap was $130m, compared to the expectation that 2017 will be $168m (and the Giants due to have some rollover money from 2016).

That said, apparently Zimmer tweaked Linval's stance and has gotten better play from him. Not sure what kind of bull Perry and Nunn were teaching.

In comment 13292094 Giants2012 said:

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we lost years off Eli's career. The defense was putrid and a rock like Joseph would have only helped. A duo of Joseph and Hankins would have been great.

They had Joseph in 2011 and sucked balls then. Canty was a good rusher himself. He was a good player, no doubt but Joseph is still with supremely good players Minnesota. People forget that.

Danielle Hunter, Brian Robison, Everson Griffen, Anthony Barr, Chad Greenway, Eric Kendricks, all very good players in that front seven.

no Hankins was the replacement for Joseph the same way Joseph was the replacement for Barry Cofield..

Hankins > Joseph

In comment 13292232 blueblood said:

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no Hankins was the replacement for Joseph the same way Joseph was the replacement for Barry Cofield..

so you still don't get it?

LJ Vikings version is a far superior player than the NYG version. Not even the Vikings saw it coming, or at least not in the contract he signed.

In comment 13292179 JonC said:

Quote:

and was as both a nose tackle with the Jets and as a 4-3 DT for NYG, a feat suggesting versatility very few have been able to achieve on NFL fields. Snacks also consistently is able to force his play to the other side of the LOS, defeat double-teams, and is more effective generating a push up the middle on the pass rush, to my eye. Plenty of pressure and run stats out there to back it up, Connor Hughes put some good stuff out some time back. He's also very consistent, something Joseph has often not been able to demonstrate on a weekly basis.

Jon, Snacks is surprisingly fast for his size. Great signing!

Vikings fans considered him a free agent bust. He worked to improve his game and has shined for them every since. Kudos to him for that, but only in hindsight was letting him go a mistake.

2016's draft and UFA class may go down as one of our best ever. I truly believe Vernon, Snacks, Jenkins, Apple, Shepard, Thompson and Perkins will have "ProBowl" like careers for us. Solid players who perform very well.

Throw in TE Adams who I think can be a starter upgrade to Tye next year. Throw in UDFA's DE Romeo Okwara and FS Adams, both of whom have impressed and played as starters and you just show a great off-season.

I also believe that WR R. Lewis will be more of a factor next year as he learns route running and such.

We need a strong 2017 off-season. Hopefully we can get UFA WR Pryor from Cleveland to be our #2 WR. He has speed and ability and excelled on a poor team with 913 yards through 15 games.

I hope we retain J. Jerry, M. Newhouse as UFA back-ups. I hope we get the best available OT in free agency and draft a quality OL (poor OL draft I'm told) to groom. We may have to live with Flowers at LT but upgrade RT and maybe even RG.

Needs:

1. OT (2 if possible to replace Beatty and extra OL)
2. WR (we need a true #2 to open this offense up)
3. TE (replace Donnell's roster spot and block and catch)
4. LB (Shepard is solid against run, can Goodson start?)
5. OL (our depth is limited, can we upgrade?)
6. RB (Jennings likely done, Dwarka always hurt and UFA)
7. QB (We need a young guys to groom, may carry 3 QB's)
8. K (if R. Gould leaves....?)

We have $35 million in cap space right now and will likely have more with some cuts and salary reductions (Cruz, Jennings) plus the cap bump up.

I'm praying our 2017 off-season is as good as our 2016.

plain and simple. Kudos to him for getting better on his new team, no guarantee it happens with us.

can honestly say that Joseph is a better player than Harrison. I was a huge Joseph fan but he was not very consistent with us as he has been with the Vikings. Even at their current contracts I would rather have Harrison even though he costs more.

Well... last year we could have really used Joseph.

Really!!!

But mano y mano, Harrison is the better run-stopper. He's the best run-stoppper at defensive tackle in the entire NFL and is a huge reason why the Giants are no longer outside the playoffs looking in.

But the Giants can never get back the missed Joseph years. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

was a screwup. The kid was coming into his own and he wasn't replaced until now. Hankins didn't lock down the 1 like Joseph and the very reason the Giants had to sign Snacks.

They gave Joseph. It was stupid. He was a young improving player and they let him walk because Reese did a shit job managing the cap. Period.

All else is revisionist. Now Reese has gottten the cap on order and fixed most of his fuck ups.

What I don't get is why people do mental gymnastics like this is just weird. He fucked up. Does drafting Collins absolve him for grabbing Austin.

You want your GM to minimize mistakes. All GMs miss and screw up. Could be lot worse. He could have been the idiot in Miami who passed up Brees for Culpepper. Lol.

Reese had a tough stretch from after the win in 2011.

He violated his own mantra of a year too early is better than a year too late.

In retrospect I would have rather rebuilt full scale, including not investing in Joseph.

Irony is if he had, we'd probably been so bad we pick too early and miss out on OBJ.

We signed DRC that offseason, won a few games, and picked OBJ.

In comment 13292511 LauderdaleMatty said:

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They gave Joseph. It was stupid. He was a young improving player and they let him walk because Reese did a shit job managing the cap. Period. All else is revisionist. Now Reese has gottten the cap on order and fixed most of his fuck ups. What I don't get is why people do mental gymnastics like this is just weird. He fucked up. Does drafting Collins absolve him for grabbing Austin. You want your GM to minimize mistakes. All GMs miss and screw up. Could be lot worse. He could have been the idiot in Miami who passed up Brees for Culpepper. Lol.

You know what is revisionist? That Reese did a shit job with the cap, when the guys that were in line for extensions had freak injuries that destroyed their careers (Nicks, JPP, and Cruz).

John Beason and multiple terrible OL contracts were the culprit.

Kuhn to Harrison is possibly the biggest position upgrade anywhere in the NFL.

Snacks is the most important player on the Giants.

In comment 13292550 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 13292511 LauderdaleMatty said: Quote: They gave Joseph. It was stupid. He was a young improving player and they let him walk because Reese did a shit job managing the cap. Period. All else is revisionist. Now Reese has gottten the cap on order and fixed most of his fuck ups. What I don't get is why people do mental gymnastics like this is just weird. He fucked up. Does drafting Collins absolve him for grabbing Austin. You want your GM to minimize mistakes. All GMs miss and screw up. Could be lot worse. He could have been the idiot in Miami who passed up Brees for Culpepper. Lol. You know what is revisionist? That Reese did a shit job with the cap, when the guys that were in line for extensions had freak injuries that destroyed their careers (Nicks, JPP, and Cruz).

Really? So both David Diego and Snee had freak injuries that ended their 8 and 10'uear careers? He passes on Max Unger for a king Sintim and Signed Baas to a rich deal. Who even though never heathy got two revisions to his contract due to lack of cap space. He passed on Linval to sign the never ever ever healthy LB Beason. He gave a big contract to Beatty who was never more than average since h had no one else on he roster who could even try to play LT. Gee why didn't they resign Bennet who left for a very reasonable contract. Oh. They were up against the cap. Still waiting for a TE who is even half the player that guy is. How did that great Geoff Schwartz contract turn out. He fucked up the cap. They were up against it for 3 years after the SB. But don't let the actual situation color your thoughts

Try again. Shit you can't even tuck your shirt in before you leave your desk.

Quote:

Really? So both David Diego and Snee had freak injuries that ended their 8 and 10'uear careers? He passes on Max Unger for a king Sintim and Signed Baas to a rich deal. Who even though never heathy got two revisions to his contract due to lack of cap space. He passed on Linval to sign the never ever ever healthy LB Beason. He gave a big contract to Beatty who was never more than average since h had no one else on he roster who could even try to play LT. Gee why didn't they resign Bennet who left for a very reasonable contract. Oh. They were up against the cap. Still waiting for a TE who is even half the player that guy is. How did that great Geoff Schwartz contract turn out. He fucked up the cap. They were up against it for 3 years after the SB. But don't let the actual situation color your thoughts Try again. Shit you can't even tuck your shirt in before you leave your desk.

You're bitching about not bringing back Linval due to cap restraints, and guys that are in line for extensions beyond 2014, and you bring up Max Unger? Diehl and Snee were guys that TC refused to bench. Linval's last year, Snee was on the bench, and Diehl wasn't brought back the season after. Those two had zero impact on us bringing back Joseph. I love how you just make up shit like "giving Beatty a BIG contract" without giving any thought to what starting LT's made on an average at the time. Just sounds like you're reaching for reasons to kill Reese for not bringing back Joseph when we replaced him with someone who is better and much more cost controlled (Hankins). Stop just being reactive and angry, and think about who it is that were in line for new contracts when we let Joseph walk. Eli Manning got a new deal in 2015. Cruz and Nicks were looking to get paid. JPP. It might come as a surprise to you, but cap space dries up quickly, but yes, let's bitch that we didn't back up the brinks truck for positions that most teams don't put high premiums on.

QB's, DE's, and WR's cost a lot of money, and they are more important to replace than TE or DT.

In comment 13292745 David in LA said:

Quote:

QB's, DE's, and WR's cost a lot of money, and they are more important to replace than TE or DT.

What rubs me the wrong way
David in LA : 9/6/2015 7:03 pm : link
is that we shelved LJ for his rookie year, and spent time developing him only to let him walk away. I understand rosters turnover, but you cannot let first and second rounders walk unless they are dogs.




Lol - yeah right, keep keep flip flopping and call it translation.

Link - ( New Window )

.

more reasonable people would call being malleable enough to look back and admit they were wrong about a position. I know that type of concept is out of reach for little stains such as yourself, especially considering the amount of trouble you have doing something that's as simple as properly linking something.

From cbs sports....

Quote:

The Vikings' run defense has struggled in recent weeks, seeing what was formally a Top 10 unit fall to resolutely average, sitting at 15th in the NFL. The Bears, meanwhile, possess one of the league's surprising breakout rookies in Jordan Howard, who gashed the Vikings for 153 yards and one touchdown in their previous encounter and eclipsing the 1,000 yard mark in his rookie season. In order for the Vikings to win comfortably on Sunday, one player who must step up is nose tackle Linval Joseph, a player who started off the season as one of the league's most dominant interior lineman before tapering off as the season progressed.

In comment 13292915 David in LA said:

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more reasonable people would call being malleable enough to look back and admit they were wrong about a position. .

Take your own advice and take mine for once and stop swearing non-stop everytime your caught flip flopping.

Your words, not mine


Link - ( New Window )

simply don't respect them or their opinion. You fall under the completely not deserving of respect category. Go get fucked. You also left off my other post that shows I'm not completely dug into a position, because I'm not an unreasonable, stubborn little shitfuck like yourself.

Quote:

I can understand the decision David in LA : 9/6/2015 7:09 pm : link if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.

In comment 13292742 David in LA said:

Quote:

Quote: Really? So both David Diego and Snee had freak injuries that ended their 8 and 10'uear careers? He passes on Max Unger for a king Sintim and Signed Baas to a rich deal. Who even though never heathy got two revisions to his contract due to lack of cap space. He passed on Linval to sign the never ever ever healthy LB Beason. He gave a big contract to Beatty who was never more than average since h had no one else on he roster who could even try to play LT. Gee why didn't they resign Bennet who left for a very reasonable contract. Oh. They were up against the cap. Still waiting for a TE who is even half the player that guy is. How did that great Geoff Schwartz contract turn out. He fucked up the cap. They were up against it for 3 years after the SB. But don't let the actual situation color your thoughts Try again. Shit you can't even tuck your shirt in before you leave your desk. You're bitching about not bringing back Linval due to cap restraints, and guys that are in line for extensions beyond 2014, and you bring up Max Unger? Diehl and Snee were guys that TC refused to bench. Linval's last year, Snee was on the bench, and Diehl wasn't brought back the season after. Those two had zero impact on us bringing back Joseph. I love how you just make up shit like "giving Beatty a BIG contract" without giving any thought to what starting LT's made on an average at the time. Just sounds like you're reaching for reasons to kill Reese for not bringing back Joseph when we replaced him with someone who is better and much more cost controlled (Hankins). Stop just being reactive and angry, and think about who it is that were in line for new contracts when we let Joseph walk. Eli Manning got a new deal in 2015. Cruz and Nicks were looking to get paid. JPP. It might come as a surprise to you, but cap space dries up quickly, but yes, let's bitch that we didn't back up the brinks truck for positions that most teams don't put high premiums on.

Sorry. My last reply was way too long. I tried to answer you. Now accuse me
Of making things up. Did they not resigns Beason? Did they not redo all those contracts eating up cap space. Resulting in dead money. Seriously I e been on this site for about 13 years now. You are easily in the top 5 biggest dopes here. You fight with everyone. Another 95 pound keyboard warriors. Bye

I said there was some revisionist history there, and then you threw out the shot about tucking in my shirt, as if that's some sort of dig that I give a shit about, and then had a long winded/non-sensical answer that weaved in Max Unger to the conversation about resigning LJ in 2013, when that had no impact on that at all. Let's not pretend you were acting like a saint in this thread, nor said anything mired in actual facts. Beason was a mistake though.

but I like Snacks more. Dude has been a Godsend to this defense. He deserves more credit than he's gotten, IMO.

In comment 13293378 LauderdaleMatty said:

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Sorry. My last reply was way too long. I tried to answer you. Now accuse me Of making things up. Did they not resigns Beason? Did they not redo all those contracts eating up cap space. Resulting in dead money. Seriously I e been on this site for about 13 years now. You are easily in the top 5 biggest dopes here. You fight with everyone. Another 95 pound keyboard warriors. Bye

+1

Agreed 100%