By way of a quick introduction I'm a long time poster on another Giants board. I'm excited to be here as I've always heard good things about this place. Anyway my inaugural post is addressed my thoughts on the likely approach to fixing the offense.
First of all I'm not taking my eye off the ball, I'm over Eagles debacle, bad officiating, bad Eli, short week, drained after beating two division leaders, no Jackrabbit. The Giants will be fine, in fact I have a sneaky suspicion they're going to beat Washington and who knows where it will go from there. However looking ahead many are anticipating JR deploying the FA strategy he used to fix the defense on the offense. In doing some basic analysis I can't help but to conclude that's not likely.
Sure the Giants are appealing, they're a good team, great franchise and well you know the whole the world evolves around NYC thing. Their current cap space is strong but with the increased threshold almost all teams sans the Cowboys are in good cap shape. And with currently $43M in space they'll need to use a big portion of the space to resign JPP and Hankins. In spite of popular opinion the defense still has big needs specifically at the LB position. I dreamed of the Giants splitting their picks between offense and defense by going gangbusters signing offensive need players in FA. We all agree their biggest needs are on the offensive line. I'm fine moving Flowers around, but at 22 I'm expecting him to have some spot in next seasons unit. They need to replace Jerry and move Hart to a depth rotation role. So who, why and at what cost should they focus their targeted search?
Let's start with Tackles where everyone wants to keep their proven veteran. The top players at this position are?
Riley Rieff/Lions - Signed a 4 year, $7,993,700 contract with the Detroit Lions, including a $4,250,000 signing bonus, $6,513,500 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $1,998,425. In 2016, Reiff will earn a base salary of $8,070,000. Reiff has a cap hit of $8,070,000 while his dead money value is $8,070,000. The Lions are currently in very good cap position with $47M in space. They also don't have a lot of big name impending FA's with only Boldin currently at $2.7M, Billy Bush at $1.5M and DT Stephan Charles at $1.75M. Rieff will be very easy for the Lions to resign.
Matt Kalil and Andre Smith / Vikings - Both currently hurt Kalil is the LT, both are high first round picks and they're good and would be great acquisitions. The Vikings currently have about $26M in cap space. Other than Kalil and Smith their other key UFA's are Munnerlyn who's a depth CB, Greenway who's 33, Newman who's 38 and Cordarrelle Patterson. The Vikings should be able to retain both of their Tackles.
Sebastian Vollmer / Pats - Vollmer is 32, the Patriots are currently a staggering $72M under the cap. They have a few other notable UFA's like Sheard, Bennett, Hightower, Blount and Ryan but again they have a ton of space and when have the Pats ever lost someone they wanted to retain? This ones not going to happen.
The rest of the UFA Tackles are underwhelming to say the least, Andrew Whitworth is having a good season but he's 35 years old, Gosder Cherilus, Mike Remmers and Bryan Bell aren't going to excite too many people. So the chances of being helped at OT by the UFA market appear dire at the current moment.
Onto Guard where the pickings are a little more encouraging but not much. The top UFA Guards are:
TJ Lang/ Pack - Just named a starter in the Pro-Bowl. The Packers currently have $37M in cap space. Their other notable FA's are Peppers who's 36 and will likely retire, Micah Hyde who's coming off his rookie contract, Nick Perry who's a must keep, RT Don Barclay who's depth, Eddie Lacey who they can't get rid of quick enough and OLB Datone Jones. They should have no problems resigning Lang.
Luke Joeckel/Jags- Oh he'll be available as the Jags announced they wouldn't be exercising his 5th year option but is he really the answer? Jax is currently $67M under the cap and have no one else notable to sign except old friend Prince. If Joeckel is any good the Jags should be able to sign him. Now there is the possibility that Joeckel wants out of that wasteland with the opportunity to return to Tackle. He might be worth a look.
Chance Warmack/Titans- A former top 10 pick, he's been out this season with a finger injury and like Joeckel has already been informed that his 5th year option will not be exercised. The Titans are $75M under the cap, other notable FA's for them are TE Fasano, Sean Spence and Kendell Wright. It's possible the Titans are ready to move on from Warmack but it won't be because of cap issues. He too might be worth exploring.
Ron Leary/Cowboys - This should be the Giants #1 FA target. Leary is having a great season, the Cowboys are in cap hell and are currently $760K over even with the added space. They have a few decent other FA's such as Church, Claiborne, Jack Crawford and Terrance Williams. The wildcard here is what happens with Tony Romo and his huge salary. Romo counts for $19.6M of the cap space, if they cut him they'd take a $24.5M cap hit. The Giants should go after Leary hard.
There are a couple of other decent Guards who will be UFA's, guys like Larson of the Bears and Zeitler of the Bengals. The Giants have a much better chance of success signing a Guard than Tackle.
And finally let's look at the TE position where Larry Donnell being jettisoned will almost have a Berlin Wall type feeling. The top targets here include:
Anthony Fasano/Tenn -Jersey guy but he's 32 and has little left, currently has 7 receptions for the season.
Martellus Bennett - Not even worth a discussion, it will never happen for many reasons.
Jarred Cook/Pack- Not a great blocker, has actually played pretty well this season. I wouldn't want him though.
Jordan Cameron/Miamhas been in free fall since 2013, no thanks.
Vernon Davis/Washington- Davis has shown signs of being his old self, however he's 32 and not known for being a great blocker. The Redskins are currently $67M under the cap. They need to sign Cousins who was franchised last season at $19M against the cap. Both Garcon and Jackson are FA's and they'll cost a lot, chances are at least one of them will be elsewhere.
Jack Doyle/Indy-I really like this guy and he's been a very pleasant surprise for the Colts who are currently $60M under the cap. The Colts other FA's are dinosaurs Mathis, Cole and Adams.
Anyway thanks for having me and happy new year.
I'm hoping now that Joe Thomas will be a UFA (I think) and may not what to retire yet, that we can ink him for 3 years. He's still playing at a high level and would help solidify things for a few years. And, he won't cost a pick
Also, you should convince UKGiantsfan to post on here sometimes.
I'm hoping now that Joe Thomas will be a UFA (I think) and may not what to retire yet, that we can ink him for 3 years. He's still playing at a high level and would help solidify things for a few years. And, he won't cost a pick
You think the Browns are going to cut Joe Thomas? He's under contract for 2017 and 2018 with cap hits of $10 million per year.
His play is not declining and they have close to $50 million in cap space.
Giants would have to trade for him if they wanted him.
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and welcome..
I'm hoping now that Joe Thomas will be a UFA (I think) and may not what to retire yet, that we can ink him for 3 years. He's still playing at a high level and would help solidify things for a few years. And, he won't cost a pick
You think the Browns are going to cut Joe Thomas? He's under contract for 2017 and 2018 with cap hits of $10 million per year.
His play is not declining and they have close to $50 million in cap space.
Giants would have to trade for him if they wanted him.
Thought he was a FA..Well, that's that..
I think the Giants are most likely to sign a low-cost FA OT/G as a backup and safety net. Maybe a guy coming off an injury--as they have done in the past.
Don't think there will be a big FA signing on the offensive line. They have three high draft picks on the OL and Bobby Hart. Those 4 are all starters next year. I think we will see them possibly draft two OL next year: one a high pick and another in the mid or late rounds.
Giants are very much about allowing an OL time to come together.
I also they are thinking about the 3-4 year window with Eli and building a team that will be contender throughhout that period. So I agree we won't see the same big money, quick fix we saw on the D this year.
Joe Thomas? Would the Browns be not likely to re-sign him again? Would JT want to play a few years for a winning team?
I dunno...
Suburbanites makes a strong case for a crappy offensive FA period.
Joe Thomas? Would the Browns be not likely to re-sign him again? Would JT want to play a few years for a winning team?
I dunno...
Suburbanites makes a strong case for a crappy offensive FA period.
I was't aware that Thomas was signed for another few years with Cleveland
You will be a welcomed addition.
OBJ and Shepard are set but a 3rd WR, a stud outside option....is a must.
A two way TE.....if they even exist.
At least one more stud OL....irregardless of what they already spent.
The defense deserves to stay together but Lbers and DL help is always a good idea.
I agree that it will be more difficult to fix the offense through FA than it was the defense. Both last year, and the Pierce, MacKenzie, Plax year were FA classes that perfectly fit our needs with young players coming off their first contracts. This year doesn't.
There's no dominant young OT coming available, no top young WR, no great TE...although Doyle would be a nice addition. Leary too at OG.
Kalil was really good as a R and then almost got cut this year. He has been terrible since then when not hurt. A. Smith has been beat up the last couple of years. Whitworth & Vollmer can still play at their age, but are they going to look for an assured starting position
It will be interesting to see if Detroit resigns Reiff - he is solid as a RT
As for G - Joeckel was bad when he actually played. Warmack is a guy I would take a 'chance' on due to his age. Leary plays well, but how much of that is due to playing between All Pro players at LT & C
Agree it will be easier to find a vet G vs T
As for TE, outside of Bennett there is no player that can catch and block. The Giants staff needs to figure out if they will utilize a TE or not. They have TE with some ability, but the standard 3-5 yard curl route does nothing. If you really want a blocker first, sign Gresham
I still would like to see them get K. Britt - he is big, can run, get deep and can catch. He would allow Shepard to move to the slot where he would be lethal
At RB, If you let Jennings go at RB, who are going to try and replace him with?
And he did a great job but they need both starters and
Depth. I hope they bring in a set of new eyes for the OL for the draft. They need at least one starter there out of the first two picks. The need for depth. I'd like to see a young tackle who can push for a slot. Flowers scholarship needs To end. I think people have been a bit to hard on him but going into Bosnia third year bad technique isn't acceptable. He's got the physical tools
I love the idea of getting UFA OG Leary from the Cowboys if the price is right. He'd be a huge upgrade over Jerry and we'd have a top interior OL.
Bottom line with OL: we have to hope OL Coach Solari works his magic this off-season and our young guys like Flowers, Hart, B. Jones all develop into at least "average" starters that you can live with. Right now, neither Flowers nor Hart are solid enough in pass protection to merit their starting roles.
Remember when Dave Diehl moved over from guard and played left tackle all the way through the playoff run to the Super Bowl after Beatty was injured? And he was playing through a hand injury that left four fingers of his hand taped together.
It makes you feel like Flowers, with much greater athleticism on his side, could learn to perform as well as Diehl.
(But David had a lot of heart.)
Remember when Dave Diehl moved over from guard and played left tackle all the way through the playoff run to the Super Bowl after Beatty was injured? And he was playing through a hand injury that left four fingers of his hand taped together.
It makes you feel like Flowers, with much greater athleticism on his side, could learn to perform as well as Diehl.
(But David had a lot of heart.)
I'm not even too sure we can find a TE UFA gem. A guy who went underlooked. We may have to hope the return from injury by W. Johnson; and the development of Tye and especially Adams upgrades enough. Hard to say right now. There could be a few surprise cap cuts but usually those are guys who are no longer what they were.
I don't want to overpay for a name.
Word is Whitworth will be moved over to OG as an experiment in week 17. He hasn't been that good this year.
Leary would be nice but I think he'd command mega bucks on the open market given his productivity and lack of FA OL talent. I'm not sure the Giants will want to commit to that type of money with their own FA's and guys on the horizon.
My guess is Reese brings in some lower tiered guys to compete and invests a pick or two via the draft.
Welcome to BBI, don't let the trolls scare you.
Next TEs on roster Adams Johnson and LaCosse more as camp fodder.
I know he is a restricted free agent but I would throw money at
Cameron Brate He is a young Pass catching TE that can run in the seams.
I think coaches have a lot of soul searching to do about Flowers. If that soul searching concludes that he's a bust there aren't many good answers other than spending another high pick on a tackle and crossing your finders. Don't really like that. A better idea might be to spend a high pick on a Tight End and replace Jennings with one of the droves of options you always end up with between UFA's and draft picks.
Perkins has proven he's a viable contender for feature back and a damn decent one. Vereen will be back; you replace Jennings who looks like he has concrete shoes. You add a real TE in the mix and I think we might all be amazed at how well the offensive line (including Flowers) appears to improve.
Eli, I think, isn't a concern yet. He's Eli. He's always going to be up and down, and largely a product of the players around him. He's the kind of QB who easily plays into his 40s. If he doesn't pick up his game by this time next season that's a concern. But if he gets back to the Eli we know: 3-4 lights out games, 3-4 crap the beds, and the rest of the games unremarkable (as used in the medical sense - eg nothing particular to comment on) I see at least 5 years of him leading the offense which means they can wait 3 years (at least) to start soft circling his successor.
And again, great first post.
Welcome to BBI, don't let the trolls scare you.
I think it starts in the trenches and a solid Oline would cure a lot of the O's woes.
If they had even a decent run game this O would be much better. Forcing teams to bring a safety down into the box instead of sitting back in two deep would do wonder for the passing game. If they could give Eli more time, that would be huge for the O as well, and if wouldn't matter as much what we had a TE. We could live with Tye if our Oline was better,IMO.
Look at what having a fantastic DLine did for that side of the ball. Get an OLine to match and lookout. Sure I'd like an upgrade at TE,and outside WR opposite OBJ but I'd go to battle with our O as it is if we had that type of OLine.
From what we've heard so far, the Giants had so much available cap space beginning last year's free agency that even with all the spending they did they still had a comfortable amount left. And this year there's going to be another large league-wide increase.
The whole reason for the existence of an NFL franchise is to win the championship. This Giant defense may be the best ever if they keep JPP, Vernon, Snacks, DRC, JackRabbit, Apple and Collins. Throw in maybe Hankins and maybe Casillas or Kennard (this is all with full props to the Parcells/Taylor defenses).
Another SB win would leave me happy enough to endure another couple of years out of the playoffs.
Next TEs on roster Adams Johnson and LaCosse more as camp fodder.
I know he is a restricted free agent but I would throw money at
Cameron Brate He is a young Pass catching TE that can run in the seams.
The big problem is that it looks like this UFA class is devoid of upper tier OL talent so he'll be pursued hot & heavy. I hope the "smell" of a potential ring and living in Nj/NY area is enough to entice him to pick us.
I also wonder if we draft an OG in round 1 and sign Leary if we wouldn't kick Pugh back to RT?
We can cut Cruz, JT Thomas, Nikita Whitlock, and Rashad Jennings for space this YEAR. But next year we won't have much room if we go after too many UFA's.
The two positions we need in UFA, quality if possible though seemingly unlikely for OL at least, are OT and WR. We can get cheaper RB, TE, OG possibly.
Hope we get Leary but not at a crazy price.
I'm with you. I've been on the "Pugh is the best LT on the team" camp for a while. He certainly the best pass protector w experience at LT.
And clearly we need 2 new Tight Ends...need one to block and one with speed/height. If cannot find both, then go with the blocker.
I'm pretty sure we can afford to re-sign Hankins and JPP (If price is right) and than be able to afford two FA OL, right?
And clearly we need 2 new Tight Ends...need one to block and one with speed/height. If cannot find both, then go with the blocker.
We do need a TE that can block an challenge the seam, make those deep cover 2 defenses pay with a lot of 8 - 12 yard throws followed by a little YAC. I just don't know who will be available in UFA or when we pick round 1.
I have a feeling we'll pursue the Cowboys OG Leary; we'll keep M. Newhouse as the backup swing tackle; we'll draft an OG in round 1; TE in round 2 (assuming value); and, retain Beatty if the coaches think he could step up.
Pugh could maybe move to LT? Crazy thought with his short arms but who knows right?
the problem with OL is that we have 3 out of 5 positions that should be set, but aren't. It's almost like we need to start all over there, with the possible exception of Pugh. We're hoping that Richburg/Flowers get it together. one addition isn't going to make this line good, let alone great.
This offense needs another RB that is a threat. I would honesty consider trading up in this draft for Dalvin Cook if he falls out of the top 10. I can't think of a better back for this offense than him. Kid can do it all, yes it's a very deep RB class, but Cook is elite and is going to be something real special. A very good RB or TE would open up everything for his Offense, and their is more value to me at spending that resource on a RB, especially with a declining QB. There is some good TE depth, and I think you can find a starter on day 2. The rest of the draft should be filling in depth with BPA.
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I'd try and kick Pugh to LOT and move Flowers to RG, while signing Leary to play LG and then drafting a RT in round 1 or 2 of the draft to compete with Hart (and hopefully beat him out).
I'm with you. I've been on the "Pugh is the best LT on the team" camp for a while. He certainly the best pass protector w experience at LT.
Same here. I understand many think Pugh's ceiling at tackle is low. Maybe so. But it's always seemed to me he's the best tackle currently on the roster. Finding a better LT between now & next season seems unlikely so maybe it's time to think about letting Pugh fill in at LT til Flowers gets it or we develop another.