A lot of people point to the offense being better last year with Randle in the line up instead of Cruz. Well it may even look that way on the surface but in reality that couldn't be further from the truth. The main difference is that Cruz i s smart enough to run the right route and not cause and interception overtime he's targeted. Now i know some of toucan't wait to give ol Cruz the boot but i can argue that maybe's he doing something that counts because I can argue without atlas 5 plays from Cruz this year we lose at least five more games.
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By chance can you tell what makes the post stupid??
Cruz is playing outside opposite OBJ. That's what Randle was doing.
So they're in exactly the same roll.
Randle has proven to be unreliable, but there are things that he can do just based off his height that other WR's on our roster can't bring to the table. He was still someone defenses had to account for on deep passes, and probably was our best last year at running the slant.
However, on the outside, I thought he provided a bigger target than does Cruz for moving the chains and being a possession guy.
One of the biggest problems with the passing game is that the Giants lack possession guys, or big targets, or anyone who can keep a drive alive. As bad as Randle was, I thought he was a better sit-down into a route receiver than Cruz on the outside.
Both are dreadful for the Giants situation though.
Just spitballing here, but I think the assertion in the post that this is a 6-10 team without 2016 Victor Cruz is not particularly insightful.
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but he's our #3 WR, Randle wasn't. Yes we need someone else on the outside, but I don't really see the comparison since the scenario isn't the same.
Cruz is playing outside opposite OBJ. That's what Randle was doing.
So they're in exactly the same roll.
No they aren't. Randle was our #2 on the outside because he was all we had. Shepard is our new #2 and plays the slot and our offense is different because of it.
In order of it to be exactly the same Shepard would have to not exist, Cruz would have to be our #2 option, and our #3 option would have to be even worse than Cruz.
I remember Cruz lining up in the slot preseason a lot against the Jets and struggling to get open but it seems mostly Shep out of the slot now, I'd like to see Cruz run some more routes from the slot now that he has a full season under his belt. He was never a good outside receiver.
Cruz should only get a few reps from the slot. Use a fast, fairly tall receiver as your Z guy. Simple fix.
I remember Cruz lining up in the slot preseason a lot against the Jets and struggling to get open but it seems mostly Shep out of the slot now, I'd like to see Cruz run some more routes from the slot now that he has a full season under his belt. He was never a good outside receiver.
So jam Cruz, shep and tye in the slot?
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Cruz needs more opportunities out of the slot. Put King on the outside since he is fast and teams will have to respect that (especially after his catch against the skins) also in some 4 WR sets with Cruz and Shep out of the slot...
I remember Cruz lining up in the slot preseason a lot against the Jets and struggling to get open but it seems mostly Shep out of the slot now, I'd like to see Cruz run some more routes from the slot now that he has a full season under his belt. He was never a good outside receiver.
So jam Cruz, shep and tye in the slot?
Yes one right behind the other.
Of course not lol. But slot was the only place Cruz ever excelled, try to get him some more targets there especially since we seem to have some speed on the outside with Tavarres King.
I never thought of bringing RR back, but his production, at least statistically, was better than Cruz.
However, on the outside, I thought he provided a bigger target than does Cruz for moving the chains and being a possession guy.
One of the biggest problems with the passing game is that the Giants lack possession guys, or big targets, or anyone who can keep a drive alive. As bad as Randle was, I thought he was a better sit-down into a route receiver than Cruz on the outside.
Both are dreadful for the Giants situation though.
This nailed it, IMO.
Cruz really can't do that on the outside.
You are missing my point. We need someone else in the receiving corp to step up. I'm not saying it is King (although that would be nice). Say what you want about King, he is fast and teams have to respect that at least a bit. Putting him on the outside with OBJ allows you to put Cruz in a spot where he was a top producer before he was injured. People are writing Cruz epitaph but he was never an outside threat even pre-injury. I myself would like to see him get some specific targets from that spot again.
No team is going to give him much more that the Giants. I just don't see that given his age, declining production and injuries.
Maybe so but it'd be nice to know for sure. Especially since we haven't broken 20 points in 5 games.
Yes, Cruz is more or less done, as a second or third WR....I can see him as a fourth, next year, but at a reduced contract....
As for King and Lewis, they are one trick ponies....go deep....both have bad technique in running patterns....we either get lucky in the draft, or find a free agent....I'd prefer a free agent.....
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in the slot but I don't think that's saying much. He's lost a couple of steps. Shepard has been solid in the slot too. Cruz is simply not part of the solution.
I don't see the Giants cutting Cruz outright. I think it is more likely he'll take a "paycut" down to say $1.1 million and a few incentives for production. He can play the slot at age 30 - 31 next year, a # backup slot guy.
No team is going to give him much more that the Giants. I just don't see that given his age, declining production and injuries.
As of now the Giants will have ODB, shep, Cruz, harris, king and Lewis on the roster. They need at least one upgrade. Harris is a candidate to get cut but he's solid on STs (but not so much as a returner which is what he's getting paid to be good at). But even if they cut harris for some reason are they going to carry 6 WRs next season and pay the backup slot receiver $1M?
Randle was shite. Cruz is a slot WR playing outside. He isn't "done" --not by any stretch. He's playing out of position. He might not be the same player he was in 2012 but he's still a serviceable player.
That said, I am guessing no matter what he will probably be on a different team next year.
Randle was shite. Cruz is a slot WR playing outside. He isn't "done" --not by any stretch. He's playing out of position. He might not be the same player he was in 2012 but he's still a serviceable player.
No one may have said that but it's true-the offense WAS better when Randle was here and Cruz wasn't. How much of a correlation is there between those 2 facts, probably little.
For all intents and purposes Cruz doesn't really fit in NY. The biggest issues with this offense is that there are no red zone threats. Replacing a 6'2" outside receiver with a 6'0" one who probably runs a 4.7-4.8 40 at this stage raises a few red flags. Doesn't mean Cruz is signifcantly worse than Randle by any means but something is certainly wrong with what they are doing.
Heading into next season this team needs an actual TE and an actual outside receiver. When those two spots are (hopefully) filled where does that leave Cruz? As a backup slot receiver getting paid a lot of money who doesn't play special teams?
Cruz may very well be more useful than he is right now but as long as he's on the Giants I don't think he really fits all that well.
This year's offense is better. I don't care what stats you shove on my face. 11 wins is 11 wins.
This year's offense is better. I don't care what stats you shove on my face. 11 wins is 11 wins.
Lol ok. So our offense is better than GBs and as good as atlantas (which has an all time great offense this season). Sounds logical.
Our problems last year were pretty similar in lack of TOP and running game, but we could score points. OBj seemed to score a lot more last year, and I remember Harris getting in on the action as well. Not sure how we have gone backwards in the scoring regards, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Our problems last year were pretty similar in lack of TOP and running game, but we could score points. OBj seemed to score a lot more last year, and I remember Harris getting in on the action as well. Not sure how we have gone backwards in the scoring regards, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
I'll take Shepard over Randle 12 times out of 10 but at the end of the day he's a rookie still and hasn't been all that consistent. Very solid pick though and hopefully he's a mainstay in this offense long after Eli retires.
As mentioned Cruz is playing out of position and Eli has only connected with him on half his attempts in his direction. Good riddance of Randle but I don't think you can make an argument that Cruz is better on the outside than Randle. He's a slot receiver.
There's a total of 0 receivers that are taller than 6'0 on this roster that can run a route deeper than 6 yards downfield
Last year Jennings didn't fall over the cliff and (I think) vereen played in 15-16 games last season. Vereen was a big part of converting broken plays into first downs and could get 5+ yards on that stupid draw play they ran for Jennings non stop this season. The run game wasn't great but they got more than 4 ypc out of their backs last season (it's at what like 3.3 ypc this season)? Perkins came on but fairly late. Jennings was decent last year and vereen was a weapon. They didn't have that this year.
Amazing that some folks here "Homered" themselves into thinking that this receiver corp would be an outstanding Unit.... Cruz has been a question all along, but the Mix is really Lousy...yes...including the Tight Ends.
They need a POST player in the offense.
I don't think it was prevent just because of the fact that we lost how many, 5-6 games in the last few minutes of the game? I think it's understandable to feel that if we had this defense last year we are definitely at the very least winning the division and making the playoffs, if not more.
Didn't we lose something like 4-6 games in the last minute or two of the game last year? Is really fair to suggest that the entirety of the point difference is from garbage time when we were up in the fourth quarter of 10-12 of the games last year?
Our point differential last year was like -22 and this year it's +26 which really isn't that big of a swing considering it equates to 5 more wins this year. We had a historically bad defense last year and really the only thing keeping our defense from being far and away #1 is that the offense keeps letting them onto the field (an issue that existed last year as well).
Now I'm not saying our offense was top 10 or whatever the numbers suggested last year but there was certainly more life in the backfield. I don't think it's off at all to suggest that our defense moving up 30 spots in the rankings and being able to not choke in the last minute of the game is far and away the biggest reason for the 5 more wins this year.
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because our defense was miserable. I believe we led the league in 4th quarter scoring last year at 8.6 PPG, down to 5.8 PPG this year. Now is that because our offense was so much better or is it the prevent defenses we saw much more than we do now and the need to score late to have a shot of winning?
I don't think it was prevent just because of the fact that we lost how many, 5-6 games in the last few minutes of the game? I think it's understandable to feel that if we had this defense last year we are definitely at the very least winning the division and making the playoffs, if not more.
I don't think its a hard rule or anything, but the 4th quarter of last years games are completely different than this year. We saw against the Cowboys specifically a few weeks back that we were fine running clock because we knew they couldn't gain an inch on our defense. Then we had to make a play against the Redskins and did.
We overachieved on offense last year, but they also had a sense of urgency each game because scoring points seems to be the only way we can win games. Completely different mentality this year coupled with an offensive line that regressed and a bunch of other small issues that have added up.
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because our defense was miserable. I believe we led the league in 4th quarter scoring last year at 8.6 PPG, down to 5.8 PPG this year. Now is that because our offense was so much better or is it the prevent defenses we saw much more than we do now and the need to score late to have a shot of winning?
Didn't we lose something like 4-6 games in the last minute or two of the game last year? Is really fair to suggest that the entirety of the point difference is from garbage time when we were up in the fourth quarter of 10-12 of the games last year?
Our point differential last year was like -22 and this year it's +26 which really isn't that big of a swing considering it equates to 5 more wins this year. We had a historically bad defense last year and really the only thing keeping our defense from being far and away #1 is that the offense keeps letting them onto the field (an issue that existed last year as well).
Now I'm not saying our offense was top 10 or whatever the numbers suggested last year but there was certainly more life in the backfield. I don't think it's off at all to suggest that our defense moving up 30 spots in the rankings and being able to not choke in the last minute of the game is far and away the biggest reason for the 5 more wins this year.
I said we saw more prevent defense, not that we only saw prevent defense. I think you get my point, but that isn't what I was saying.
Another one was the eagles game where we lost 27-7. That was the game Odell scored on the opening drive and the Giants failed to score again.
The third one was the Vikings. I turned off that game fairly early so idk how the scoring went down.
But those are the only 3 games I can really think of we were out of (one we lost on a FG with time expiring). Another one we didn't score at all in the final 3 quarters, even against "prevent defenses" and the Vikings were really, really good last year as well.
So again I can't really see why we would be up against more prevent defenses last year compared to this year.
Randle at least gave us a big receiver who could run go routes and slants effectively, although his unpredictable route running led to a myriad of INTs over the year, something McAdoo can't tolerate, and no coach should. Next year it would be nice to have a reliable big receiver, and a big rookie high draft choice to be mentored up, so that we don't have to rely upon Cruz.
Randle at least gave us a big receiver who could run go routes and slants effectively, although his unpredictable route running led to a myriad of INTs over the year, something McAdoo can't tolerate, and no coach should. Next year it would be nice to have a reliable big receiver, and a big rookie high draft choice to be mentored up, so that we don't have to rely upon Cruz.
Eli also threw 2 more picks this year than last year and 9 less TDs. Yeah Randle was a headcase but I hardly think he was responsible for like 8 interceptions.
Don't know what to tell you then. I also think you are taking my point far to specifically. We saw easier defenses last year, and we also had no choice but to score to win games, plus a ton of other tweaks on offense that haven't worked out, plus the regression of the line.
There isn't 1 specific reason, I named a bunch and there are probably more. The biggest to me is that we no longer need to score 30 points to win football games. If you think that doesn't effect preparation and game planning then I don't know what to tell you.
We scored 21 points in the 4th quarter of both those games which is more than we average per game this year. In the Panthers game we trailed 35-14 at the start of the 4th quarter and in the Saints game we trailed by 14.
If we have this defense last year we let up way fewer points but we also score way fewer too, IMO. Nothing close to as bad as this year, but definitely a noticeable amount.
Now he sees Cover 2 and throws an out to Will Tye...
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We were ahead in about the same number of games in the 4th quarter this year as last year. So I'm not sure why we'd see signficantly less prevent defense this year.
Don't know what to tell you then. I also think you are taking my point far to specifically. We saw easier defenses last year, and we also had no choice but to score to win games, plus a ton of other tweaks on offense that haven't worked out, plus the regression of the line.
There isn't 1 specific reason, I named a bunch and there are probably more. The biggest to me is that we no longer need to score 30 points to win football games. If you think that doesn't effect preparation and game planning then I don't know what to tell you.
I think running a more conservative offense has something to do with it (although it doesn't make sense if we are turning the ball over more than last year).
Have we really faced tougher defenses this year? We played the Vikings and saints both years. The packers, lions, skins, browns, eagles, bears and cowboys are all bottom 10 in pass defense this year and that accounted for 10 of our games this year. Last year the eagles were actually pretty good on D and the skins were more respectable (think they had the worst defense overall this year). We played the panthers and pats last season. We had the 2nd easiest schedule coming into the year this year and I can't think of any staunch defenses we played this year besides the Vikings and the Steelers, who were both slightly above average.
Yeah the "pace" of the game (I can't think of the football equivalent of the term) has led to less points on both sides overall.
But I think there's something in that when the Giants needed to score points last year they did (saints, skins, panthers they scored like 10+ TDs to make the games close) but when they needed to in the same situations this year they've scored like 1 TD (which was on a debatable ODB toe tap that would've been negated had it been ruled differently on the field).
Again I don't think we had an elite offense last year but Eli (and the run game) were more prolific this year and I don't think you need stats to justify it. The ball hasn't come out as cleanly for Eli this year. The blocking hasn't improved.
I just don't think we were as bad as the record indicated last season. We just couldn't close out games. Had the defense been average last season I think we get to 9-10 wins easy.
If the offense is so good then what's separating the Giants from being a 13-14 win team? I genuinely believe we have the best defense. I think with picks/FA money splurge on offensive talent we can be a team that puts away mediocre teams at halftime. And yeah, I know that's not traditionally how the Giants win football games but with Odell and the top defense I don't think it would take much to become a powerhouse for eli's remaining years. Fuck the cowboys.
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4 years and has 4 career catches. Before the 44 yard catch on Sunday he had 19 career receiving yards. I hardly think he's shown anything to prove he's a reliable outside threat.
You are missing my point. We need someone else in the receiving corp to step up. I'm not saying it is King (although that would be nice). Say what you want about King, he is fast and teams have to respect that at least a bit. Putting him on the outside with OBJ allows you to put Cruz in a spot where he was a top producer before he was injured. People are writing Cruz epitaph but he was never an outside threat even pre-injury. I myself would like to see him get some specific targets from that spot again.
and what's Shepard going to do? Mix the Gatorade?
I understand your point about Cruz, but Shepard is the 2nd best receiver on the roster, and he happens to also be a slot receiver.
Cruz isn't a fit here anymore.
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In comment 13302915 giantsfan44ab said:
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4 years and has 4 career catches. Before the 44 yard catch on Sunday he had 19 career receiving yards. I hardly think he's shown anything to prove he's a reliable outside threat.
You are missing my point. We need someone else in the receiving corp to step up. I'm not saying it is King (although that would be nice). Say what you want about King, he is fast and teams have to respect that at least a bit. Putting him on the outside with OBJ allows you to put Cruz in a spot where he was a top producer before he was injured. People are writing Cruz epitaph but he was never an outside threat even pre-injury. I myself would like to see him get some specific targets from that spot again.
and what's Shepard going to do? Mix the Gatorade?
I understand your point about Cruz, but Shepard is the 2nd best receiver on the roster, and he happens to also be a slot receiver.
Cruz isn't a fit here anymore.
I remain unconvinced that Shep is that much better in the slot at this point in his career than Victor, well definitely not the old Victor anyway. Call me curious... I'd like to see what he has left with a few more targets at the slot, especially the old slants he use to run out of that position. Slot was the only place Cruz was ever really effective for the Giants.
I think the Giants coaching staff knows what they are getting from Shep and Cruz 16 games in.
I think the Giants coaching staff knows what they are getting from Shep and Cruz 16 games in.
I think Cruz's stats would be better if he played slot, for sure, but he isn't so I'm not dwelling on it.
I think the Giants coaching staff knows what they are getting from Shep and Cruz 16 games in.
Well I certainly can't argue that. Still I would love to see a few more targets to him there. I never liked him on the outside. And is some of it homerism? Sure is... lol. I'll always be grateful to him for 2011. And stay or go for 2017... I'd LOVE to see him crush it in these playoffs.
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wasn't that stellar before he got hurt. Caught 56% of his passes. Shepard caught 62% of his targets this season. Losing a few tenths of a second of his 40 time couldn't have done Cruz any favors.
I think the Giants coaching staff knows what they are getting from Shep and Cruz 16 games in.
Well I certainly can't argue that. Still I would love to see a few more targets to him there. I never liked him on the outside. And is some of it homerism? Sure is... lol. I'll always be grateful to him for 2011. And stay or go for 2017... I'd LOVE to see him crush it in these playoffs.
Haha I'd think it would be tough to find a Giants fan that doesn't appreciate how amazing he was that run. It really was crazy, an undrafted free agent who couldn't crack the field the year before comes on the scene for 1500 yards and 10 TDs. As insane Odell is he hasn't even had a season quite lack that one.
Obviously I'm rooting for Cruz this playoffs and will be ready to eat my words if he shows up. But in the NFL it's all about learning to let go and it looks like it's about that time with Cruz. Props to him, he's shown ability when I thought he'd never play a snap again. But I think the Giants could use an outside threat and he would help a team where he can play in the slot (panthers seem like a good fit).