Which side does Khalil Mack line up on?
JJ Watt?
Cameron Wake?
Michael Bennett?
Von Miller?
Justin Houston?
and then a lot of decent players like
Orakpo?
Barwin?
Its a complete myth that RT is any easier to play than LT.
Flowers should move to RG.
we need two tackles.
It should be RG or LT
So he would receive a ton more help and Eli would be more aware of the pressure coming in.
So he would receive a ton more help and Eli would be more aware of the pressure coming in.
What? TEs only line up on the right side? Do you know what a chip block is?
Possible, but my argument is that he's not going to see any decrease in quality of players on the right side vs left.
Von Miller, Mack, Houston, JJ Watt, even Clowney when watt has been out has lined up at LDE. Thats basically all top 5 pass rushers in today's game.
I think guard might be better. Either way the Giants are likely signing 2-3 free agent linemen this offseason and letting them compete to start. I'd expect some brought in through the draft and/or UDFAs too.
thats not the point.
the point is that he's not going to have any more success given how many strong LDEs there are in today's game. there's no decrease in skill/talent playing against RDE or LDE today.
Look at all the top fucking pass rushers. they are all RDEs.
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he's more natural moving from left to right rather than right to left on his outside shoulder regardless of opponent.
Possible, but my argument is that he's not going to see any decrease in quality of players on the right side vs left.
Von Miller, Mack, Houston, JJ Watt, even Clowney when watt has been out has lined up at LDE. Thats basically all top 5 pass rushers in today's game.
DE's across the league are going to be tough. If he's more natural moving right that could be the difference between having leverage and not having it at all. Kareem McKeenzie types aren't comfortable on the left side. A bull like Scherf (forgot his name in Washington) couldn't handle LT. He's now a guard.
We'll see, he has a lot to prove. Hope he finds a home on this OL.
Why do Irish people think he should be cut?
Not as big of a problem as we saw this year.
Where does this come from? Have you not watched the Giants at all this year? They predominantly run left. This isn't 80s and 90s football anymore.
Troll on troll.
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and also gets helped out by TE who will chip block or max protect from time to time.
So he would receive a ton more help and Eli would be more aware of the pressure coming in.
What? TEs only line up on the right side? Do you know what a chip block is?
Yes you asshole. A single TE formation, the TE for the most part starts on the right side of the line making it the strong side. Can he change sides from going in motion, sure. Can they go out in double tight, yes. A TE can also release into a pass pattern, and help with a DE or LB while going out. The LT is for the most part out on an Island alone with the DE.
And can you tell me how many times whe chipped this year to help out our tackles?
That's the second rule of knife fighting.
Yeah, right, autocorrect spelled it wrong.
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*moron
Yeah, right, autocorrect spelled it wrong.
I spelled it Moran with a capital "M" so it turned it into the city "Moron"? idk but thanks for being on my dick about it.
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In comment 13318179 est1986 said:
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*moron
Yeah, right, autocorrect spelled it wrong.
I spelled it Moran with a capital "M" so it turned it into the city "Moron"? idk but thanks for being on my dick about it.
You can correct this one for me if you want to Bmac? no prob
The Eagles ran between the guards 43% of the time. They ran behind our LT and around the left end 33% of the time and to the RT and right end 24% of the time.
In fact, a lot of teams ran left more than they ran right.
The Eagles ran between the guards 43% of the time. They ran behind our LT and around the left end 33% of the time and to the RT and right end 24% of the time.
In fact, a lot of teams ran left more than they ran right.
This will be an interesting off-season.
I think we need a minimum of 2 OL next year that are going to push these guys but hopefully give us much better productions as a whole. Eli's head was spinning this year. He never knew where he was gonna get hit from but he knew he was gonna get hit.
The Eagles ran between the guards 43% of the time. They ran behind our LT and around the left end 33% of the time and to the RT and right end 24% of the time.
In fact, a lot of teams ran left more than they ran right.
Eagles were without Lane Johnson for most of the season. I'd like to stats from other teams. Perhaps the Giants ran left more than right was because the right side of the line couldn't run block.
Other than the blind side there is no difference. If you have a weak pass blocker on either side he's a target for the other team. Teams will flip a guy to his side.
Agree he should be a G. His lateral movement in pass protection is awful. It won't be better on the other side.
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The Gaints ran between the guards 68% of the time. They ran behind our LT and around the left end 20% of the time and to the RT and right end 12% of the time.
The Eagles ran between the guards 43% of the time. They ran behind our LT and around the left end 33% of the time and to the RT and right end 24% of the time.
In fact, a lot of teams ran left more than they ran right.
Eagles were without Lane Johnson for most of the season. I'd like to stats from other teams. Perhaps the Giants ran left more than right was because the right side of the line couldn't run block.
Jeff, that is the point. Teams run where they wi have the most success. That depends on their players, the opposing players, game plans, field position, setting up other plays, getting certain WRs to one side of the field that demand double coverage to open up the running game, etc. Left and right is a byproduct of this not the reason.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
That isn't how it works.
Source?
=s NO GUARD
If the LT gets beaten that's when you get fumbles and get your QB injured, in addition to the sacks and hurries
Their respective draft pick values are a sunk cost at this point. While I don't disagree that it's suboptimal to have relatively high picks performing at positions that could/should typically be filled by lower picks, it doesn't change the fact that they're on the roster and it's more important to use them at the position that gives the team the best chance to win.
No one complains when we get value above and beyond a player's draft slot, do they? Was anyone upset about the prime years of Cruz that we got for no pick at all? How about Seubert? It happens. Sometimes, you're going to get less value than you expected; sometimes you're going to get more. At this point, specifically as it relates to Flowers, we just need to get the most value/production we can out of him regardless of position.
I agree that it's not ideal, but neither is trotting out Flowers at LT just because his draft slot dictates it.
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
Haha
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
That isn't how it works.
you dont have an argument
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
flowers is a top 10 pick.
if you think for one second if he flops at guard that he wont be tried at center before he's a nightclub bouncer you're gravely mistaken now that Reese is basically guaranteed to be here for a very long time.
=s NO GUARD
I agree with all of this, but what alternative is there? none.
he's a bust right now as a LT.
He was the worst graded LT by PFF in 2015, giving up the most pressures.
in 2016 he was the most penalized OL, and idk what his grade is going to be, but we all know it isnt very good.
He hasnt improved.
Now this leaves a big hole at LT and I think that has to be our off season priority. I'm still not thrilled with Hart or Newhouse at the RT spot but so be it. Moving and replacing Flowers improves 2 out of the 3 bad spots on that O-line. I would feel a lot better going into next season if that were the case.
If that is the plan, someone in the FO better tell Flowers about the plan so he can attend some off season school for Guards and learn the position before camp. None of this flopping around all training camp to see if its the right thing to do where he gets no chance to spend enough time on one or the other. Commit to the plan and get er done!
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In comment 13318313 huygens20 said:
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
flowers is a top 10 pick.
if you think for one second if he flops at guard that he wont be tried at center before he's a nightclub bouncer you're gravely mistaken now that Reese is basically guaranteed to be here for a very long time.
You must have not read Reese's interview at all. Why would the GM not do what's in the best interest of the team, when his job security is directly tied to team performance?
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In comment 13318377 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13318313 huygens20 said:
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
flowers is a top 10 pick.
if you think for one second if he flops at guard that he wont be tried at center before he's a nightclub bouncer you're gravely mistaken now that Reese is basically guaranteed to be here for a very long time.
You must have not read Reese's interview at all. Why would the GM not do what's in the best interest of the team, when his job security is directly tied to team performance?
i listen enough to Jerry Reese. I know he's very tone deaf when he gives his press conferences.
Flowers will be given every single chance to continue starting. Because he's on his rookie contract, young, and a top 10 pick. If you believe otherwise, that some 10mil player on the street or FA is going to kick Flowers to the bench, or to night club bouncing while hes on his rookie contract you just simply dont understand enough about the business side of the game.
You could have saved your breath and shortened it up.
You could have saved your breath and shortened it up.
construct an actual argument, try. you might learn a new skill.
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"no I did not read or listen to the interview"
You could have saved your breath and shortened it up.
construct an actual argument, try. you might learn a new skill.
Why would I waste my time when you said you did not hear the recent interview and that you know Reese. I'm not going to get into it with a windbag such as yourself.
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In comment 13318313 huygens20 said:
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
flowers is a top 10 pick.
if you think for one second if he flops at guard that he wont be tried at center before he's a nightclub bouncer you're gravely mistaken now that Reese is basically guaranteed to be here for a very long time.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong. Flowers would only be tried at center if he specifically displayed a skill set for it, not because he craps out at guard after crapping out at tackle. It just doesn't work the way you think it does.
Don't think so.
LT: 12.56 Million
RT: 7.46 Million
OG: 9.54 Million
I guess the RTs need to get the word out that they have to be just as good as LTs. However, it also shows that playing Guard is not necessarily a bad thing.
In salary here is how the Giants OL ranked for 2016;
Flowers: 27th @ $3.598M
Newhouse: 27th @ $1.5M
Hart: 43rd @ $588M
Pugh: 35th @ 2.09M
My question to the OP is, how many times did Flowers get beat by; Khalil Mack, JJ Watt, Cameron Wake, Michael Bennett, Von Miller, and Justin Houston this year? What about those two decent players, Orakpo and Barwin?
LTs are more often expected to be left out on an island. It is the blindside for QBs. There are certain players that a team should slide extra protection for regardless of which side they are on. I'll believe the RT needs to be as good at pass blocking as LTs when they pay them accordingly. Lane Johnson is certainly making a case for it but there's a huge gap between him and the next RT (a $4.5M gap for 2016).
Regardless, the Giants don't have a good OL. Even the best players on the OL are only average and paid less then average. Yes I'm aware they are mostly on rookie contracts. Still, the OL is bad. Really really bad. Which position he's better suited for can't really be known until we see him play one of the other positions. Let's not act like RT is the same as LT or that OG is easier/less important than RT.
It all depends on the skill set. There are certainly tackles who would find it more challenging to play guard and vice versa. I think what many are suggesting here is that Flowers' particular skill set might be more well suited to guard instead of tackle. In that way, Hart's own experience isn't necessarily directional. Guard may very well have been more difficult for him than tackle. That doesn't make it a universal truth.
LTa face the speed rushers, protect the QBs blind side - that's why they do get paid the big bucks.
Flowers could play right guard (I suppose), but is not quick or fast enough to play the pulling (LG) guard position.
Flowers can be a Kareem McKinzie type OT (playing on the right side). Remember when we had a mauler (Snee) at RG, an excellent pulling LG (Seubert) and McKinzie. We ran a lot to the right, inside Mac ....
Very effectively. Vince Lombardi won several championships at Green Bay, that way
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In comment 13318313 huygens20 said:
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In comment 13318198 81_Great_Dane said:
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If the Giants have drafted used two firsts and a second on tackles (Pugh, Flowers, Beatty) and what they got is two guards and a reserve tackle who almost never gets on the field, that's a problem.
#1 we know for sure he isnt a good LT or RT
#2 if u cant play tackle, you play guard. you cant play guard, you play center.
You think center is the fallback if you can't play guard?! No, center is above guard in degree of difficulty by a decent margin. If you can't play guard, you become a nightclub bouncer.
flowers is a top 10 pick.
if you think for one second if he flops at guard that he wont be tried at center before he's a nightclub bouncer you're gravely mistaken now that Reese is basically guaranteed to be here for a very long time.
wait, what?? LOL!!!
LT: 12.56 Million
RT: 7.46 Million
OG: 9.54 Million
I guess the RTs need to get the word out that they have to be just as good as LTs. However, it also shows that playing Guard is not necessarily a bad thing.
In salary here is how the Giants OL ranked for 2016;
Flowers: 27th @ $3.598M
Newhouse: 27th @ $1.5M
Hart: 43rd @ $588M
Pugh: 35th @ 2.09M
My question to the OP is, how many times did Flowers get beat by; Khalil Mack, JJ Watt, Cameron Wake, Michael Bennett, Von Miller, and Justin Houston this year? What about those two decent players, Orakpo and Barwin?
LTs are more often expected to be left out on an island. It is the blindside for QBs. There are certain players that a team should slide extra protection for regardless of which side they are on. I'll believe the RT needs to be as good at pass blocking as LTs when they pay them accordingly. Lane Johnson is certainly making a case for it but there's a huge gap between him and the next RT (a $4.5M gap for 2016).
Regardless, the Giants don't have a good OL. Even the best players on the OL are only average and paid less then average. Yes I'm aware they are mostly on rookie contracts. Still, the OL is bad. Really really bad. Which position he's better suited for can't really be known until we see him play one of the other positions. Let's not act like RT is the same as LT or that OG is easier/less important than RT.
Yup. Let is still the premium position on the line with the premium athletes usually going up against the oppositions best pass rushing athlete.
I wonder what would have happened had Kareem McKenzie been tried at LT and failed, as he would likely have. RG only?
The big question is: Who plays LT? Another rookie? a FA? If they can't find someone, then he stays there and they have to game plan to give him help, and hope the light bulb goes on re technique. He's shown he can do it at times., but he has to to it consistently.
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Average of the top 5 salaries for 2016;
LT: 12.56 Million
RT: 7.46 Million
OG: 9.54 Million
I guess the RTs need to get the word out that they have to be just as good as LTs. However, it also shows that playing Guard is not necessarily a bad thing.
In salary here is how the Giants OL ranked for 2016;
Flowers: 27th @ $3.598M
Newhouse: 27th @ $1.5M
Hart: 43rd @ $588M
Pugh: 35th @ 2.09M
My question to the OP is, how many times did Flowers get beat by; Khalil Mack, JJ Watt, Cameron Wake, Michael Bennett, Von Miller, and Justin Houston this year? What about those two decent players, Orakpo and Barwin?
LTs are more often expected to be left out on an island. It is the blindside for QBs. There are certain players that a team should slide extra protection for regardless of which side they are on. I'll believe the RT needs to be as good at pass blocking as LTs when they pay them accordingly. Lane Johnson is certainly making a case for it but there's a huge gap between him and the next RT (a $4.5M gap for 2016).
Regardless, the Giants don't have a good OL. Even the best players on the OL are only average and paid less then average. Yes I'm aware they are mostly on rookie contracts. Still, the OL is bad. Really really bad. Which position he's better suited for can't really be known until we see him play one of the other positions. Let's not act like RT is the same as LT or that OG is easier/less important than RT.
Yup. Let is still the premium position on the line with the premium athletes usually going up against the oppositions best pass rushing athlete.
I wonder what would have happened had Kareem McKenzie been tried at LT and failed, as he would likely have. RG only?
I don't know why I'm even humoring this with a response, but here goes. Not all OL are created equal. KMc was a very good RT, and you're right that he likely would not have been successful at LT. That doesn't mean that your point is proven in the inverse, or that it's somehow flawed to suggest that Flowers would be better at RG than RT. The suggestion of moving Flowers to RG stems not only from the fact that he has struggled at LT - it's the manner in which he has struggled. Many of his technique flaws in pass pro stem from poor lateral quickness. That would be mitigated inside at RG, while his strengths would be highlighted.
I'd be thrilled for Flowers to stick at RT instead, if only because it would mean that his overall technique is improving. I just think that's a bit of a reach given what we've seen for his first two seasons.
The question is: How has he managed to learn nothing useful technique-wise in 2 seasons here?
If he has what amounts to a learning disability, the problem is not starting LT. The problem is massive bust looming.
If you could fix EF so that he is not a major concern on every passing play, it would benefit this team far more than anything we can do in the draft.