1. Assuming multiple reports on the topic Derrick Rose MUST be suspended. I don't care what the family issue was. There is absolutely no excuse for not contacting/not being receptive to contact from the Knicks. You tell your agent/friend to speak to them on your behalf. The Knicks reportedly are "livid".
2. Things were already going downhill with Rose/Hornacek. Even if unrelated I think it's more likely than not this will help the Knicks make their Rose decision going forward.
"Knicks officials didnt hear from Rose that he was OK until after an embarrassing loss to New Orleans, a confirmation that sources said began the next conversation within the organization: What do they do with Rose now?
In the aftermath of going AWOL at The Garden, Knicks officials need to further determine Roses passion to return to the team and continue playing.
Rose has put into peril his short-term role with the possibility of a suspension, sources said and the longer-term chances to land a lucrative contract extension with the Knicks in July, league sources told The Vertical.
Rose, the 2011 NBA Most Valuable Player and a three-time All-Star, has suffered through several serious injuries and has diminished as an elite point guard in the league. Hes had an up-and-down season for the Knicks, who have lost eight of nine games and dropped to 17-21."
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go to melo and say look its over, we tried it did not work, we will work with you on a trade and we will find a team that you are willing to play for..
trade oquinn while he still has some value..
lance thomas there is no trade out there most likely..
i would start kuz and willy, noah can come off the bench, he is here for the forseeable future, so he can be the vet in the locker room
go to melo and say look its over, we tried it did not work, we will work with you on a trade and we will find a team that you are willing to play for..
trade oquinn while he still has some value..
lance thomas there is no trade out there most likely..
Wow. I can't believe I'm reading this But I'm glad I am
i would start kuz and willy, noah can come off the bench, he is here for the forseeable future, so he can be the vet in the locker room
Strange situation for strange team.
Uninspired group. Jennings looked like he had a migraine.
you going to say that if something happened to his kid?
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you going to say that if something happened to his kid?
He took the time to call his rep to have them call the Knicks. Couldn't he have contacted the Knicks in less time himself? Or shit, even sent a text message quickly to someone on the team just to let them know what was up?
i just dont know how can anyone attack someone personally they do not even know, attack his game dont attack him personally
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In comment 13319402 Enzo said:
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you going to say that if something happened to his kid?
He took the time to call his rep to have them call the Knicks. Couldn't he have contacted the Knicks in less time himself? Or shit, even sent a text message quickly to someone on the team just to let them know what was up?
if something happened to your kid and you are in a completely different state you thinking about your employer and figuring out the quickest way to get to your kid?
Now, if Rose was busy landing a pilotless 747 after everyone got food poisoning, maybe you have a point - but that's how ridiculously bad the scenarios have to be before it justifies his silence.
like i said i am waiting to hear what happened then i will freak out..
if it was as simple as his kid was sick and he just simply disappeared then i will kill him like everyone else..
if ot is something really bad then i will understand a little bit more
Rose is a weird guy who ends up in bad situations so he does not get any benefit of the doubt.
like i said i am waiting to hear what happened, then freak out..
fair enough?
if something happened to your kid and you are in a completely different state you thinking about your employer and figuring out the quickest way to get to your kid?
Umm, yes, yes I would. Are you telling me if you were away, and something happened to your child, you wouldn't contact your employer if you were due in work that day? I'm not saying it would be your top priority, but it would be up the list.
Good to know that he was upset about playing time after what was this team's only win since Christmas. Way to be a team guy...
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But Melo is still there!
At some point if the Knicks want Porz to grow, they have to bench Melo for games at a time until he asks for a trade. He is a cancer now. I am sure the ejection last night was to fuel some fire and get the team going, right? More like, he had enough and quit on his teammates.
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In comment 13319409 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 13319402 Enzo said:
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you going to say that if something happened to his kid?
He took the time to call his rep to have them call the Knicks. Couldn't he have contacted the Knicks in less time himself? Or shit, even sent a text message quickly to someone on the team just to let them know what was up?
if something happened to your kid and you are in a completely different state you thinking about your employer and figuring out the quickest way to get to your kid?
in this particular case, the employer in question has access to helicopters, private planes and nearly unlimited resources - so maybe that should have been his FIRST phone call?
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hopefully this means there's no chance of this guy coming back.
Melo has been a me first and selfish player since he's gotten into the league.
But Melo is still there!
At some point if the Knicks want Porz to grow, they have to bench Melo for games at a time until he asks for a trade. He is a cancer now. I am sure the ejection last night was to fuel some fire and get the team going, right? More like, he had enough and quit on his teammates.
i just dont know how can anyone attack someone personally they do not even know, attack his game dont attack him personally
WTF are you talking about? He's a lazy player, he's a selfish player, and a he's a dumb player. None of that is a personal attack.
I can see him thriving in that role.
And the problem with that is that Rose has always surrounded himself with the wrong people, aka his brother Reggie, who make the absolute worst decisions for him. But he only goes with the people he trusts and is not an intelligent enough to make the right decision. I saw it in Chicago now you are seeing it now.
People calling him dumb and lazy are really pathetic people.
And the problem with that is that Rose has always surrounded himself with the wrong people, aka his brother Reggie, who make the absolute worst decisions for him. But he only goes with the people he trusts and is not an intelligent enough to make the right decision. I saw it in Chicago now you are seeing it now.
People calling him dumb and lazy are really pathetic people.
Didn't you just call him dumb?
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the stuff about his SATs and never going to class at Memphis is probably as legit as can be. He would be an itinerant student in my school. It wouldnt shock me if he was in the lower 5% in the NBA when it comes to IQ.
And the problem with that is that Rose has always surrounded himself with the wrong people, aka his brother Reggie, who make the absolute worst decisions for him. But he only goes with the people he trusts and is not an intelligent enough to make the right decision. I saw it in Chicago now you are seeing it now.
People calling him dumb and lazy are really pathetic people.
Didn't you just call him dumb?
Call an itinerant student dumb and see the aftermath you get in school today.
Call an itinerant student dumb and see the aftermath you get in school today.
Fair point, but judging that a guy might be the in the lowest 5% in IQ in the NBA, and then castigating posters for calling him dumb is a little much, no?
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Call an itinerant student dumb and see the aftermath you get in school today.
Fair point, but judging that a guy might be the in the lowest 5% in IQ in the NBA, and then castigating posters for calling him dumb is a little much, no?
I wasnt trying to insult him by saying it wouldnt shock me about his IQ if it was, he just shows a lot of signs/symptoms of someone with a low IQ. It's still insulting to call someone dumb not knowing all the circumstances.
Regardless, the point still remains that his decisions have a lot to be desired and I dont think he gets good outside advice.
And he has made over 100 million in his career - so what does that make us? haha
1. Rose and Hornacek had been clashing in recent weeks (we had heard this before but he is confirming)
2. (more importantly) he's reporting as of this morning the Knicks still had "limited" contact with Rose regarding his absence so the "sick kid" excuse really goes out the window (even if he uses it). He's AWOL at 7 and "early morning" Tuesday he still can't give them a proper explanation/communication?
they have their first round picks going forward. Phil has traded some second rounders but has also acquired a few.
The Knicks no longer owe any 1sts. They owe 2017 2nd, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 seconds and are owed 2 2017 2nds and 2 in 2019.
The good news for Knicks fans is that Rose couldn't even act well for a full season. The Knicks have seen his true colors and won't make the catastrophic mistake of giving this guy a huge extension. IMO they should try to suspend him without pay for a while if they can under the CBA.
2017
Own first, Bulls 2nd, Rockets 2nd (minus their own 2nd)
2018
Own first, no second
2019
Own first, 2 seconds, minus their own second (so "even")
2020
Own first, no second
2021
Own first, no second
i just dont know how can anyone attack someone personally they do not even know, attack his game dont attack him personally
Sorry man. I side with everyone else on this. His people, agent, whomever could've gotten word to the Knicks while this was happening. He's completely wrong here.
He's virtually untradable now. The only thing we're getting back for his expiring deal is someone else's headache.
@KCJHoop
Regarding Rose, told this isn't all of it but that being away from his son more is weighing very heavily on him.
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His trade value. I'd take a few 2nd rounders for him at this point.
He's virtually untradable now. The only thing we're getting back for his expiring deal is someone else's headache.
yeah...somebody like Noah! Phil sure had a hell of a summer.
@KCJHoop
Regarding Rose, told this isn't all of it but that being away from his son more is weighing very heavily on him.
And get back Rondo?
There's not a player I would want less to see on any of my teams in any sport.
He's virtually untradable now. The only thing we're getting back for his expiring deal is someone else's headache.
yeah...somebody like Noah! Phil sure had a hell of a summer.
Dude... he took a shot and it backfired. He didn't give up anything of value. I can't kill him for this move.
Noah is fair game, but the Rose trade was a worthy gamble.
he had negative value to every team but the Knicks last summer. It was reported other teams were asking for a first rounder in exchange for taking him. I doubt 30 games of his ballhog act here in NY had teams dying to trade assets for him. In the absolute best case scenario, he's maybe a bench guy for a contender, but his salary makes it hard to move him. As we see with Melo, contenders typically don't have max level salaries for players they don't need/can afford to lose on their roster that they can trade for other max players.
With all his handlers, agents, attorneys, groupies you figure one of them could have contacted Knicks brass.
If his son was that sick (and I hope he wasn't for the kid's sake), Rose's PR guys would have released a statement by now. Instead he looks like a whiny has been who is upset he will never see a max deal again.
He probably needed the max money to pay off his legal fees from beating the rape case.
@KCJHoop
Regarding Rose, told this isn't all of it but that being away from his son more is weighing very heavily on him.
bahahaha. What a bunch of bullshit.
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His trade value. I'd take a few 2nd rounders for him at this point.
he had negative value to every team but the Knicks last summer. It was reported other teams were asking for a first rounder in exchange for taking him. I doubt 30 games of his ballhog act here in NY had teams dying to trade assets for him. In the absolute best case scenario, he's maybe a bench guy for a contender, but his salary makes it hard to move him. As we see with Melo, contenders typically don't have max level salaries for players they don't need/can afford to lose on their roster that they can trade for other max players.
Melo isn't even close to what Rose is, because Melo can still do what he does and he's not a diva.
Even after announcing his shoulder injury I bet more teams would be willing to acquire Melo than Rose.
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In comment 13319617 giantsfan44ab said:
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His trade value. I'd take a few 2nd rounders for him at this point.
he had negative value to every team but the Knicks last summer. It was reported other teams were asking for a first rounder in exchange for taking him. I doubt 30 games of his ballhog act here in NY had teams dying to trade assets for him. In the absolute best case scenario, he's maybe a bench guy for a contender, but his salary makes it hard to move him. As we see with Melo, contenders typically don't have max level salaries for players they don't need/can afford to lose on their roster that they can trade for other max players.
Melo isn't even close to what Rose is, because Melo can still do what he does and he's not a diva.
Even after announcing his shoulder injury I bet more teams would be willing to acquire Melo than Rose.
Melo was only brought up as a comparison with regard to getting salaries to match from a contender. That's it.
We have posters saying "trade Melo and Rose!" but there are no obvious fits out there right now because of their salaries (unless there's some crazy 5 or 6 team trade).
My Chicago friends basically said they would not believe a word he said about his whereabouts. He's probably pissed at hornacek and pouting.
Amazing that we had an opportunity to essentially tank this year and get a top guard prospect to go with KP and Hernangomez, and we decided to go this route instead. I was fine with the Rose flyer for one year, but Noah, Lee and Thomas? Not so much.
Don't forget who pays the agent - he has to represent his client, no matter how big a jackass or douchebag he may be.
Really? You're better than that man.
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agent only played 6 seasons for Phil Jackson winning 4 rings.... and yet radio silence? Bizarre.
Don't forget who pays the agent - he has to represent his client, no matter how big a jackass or douchebag he may be.
My point was more... if the "kid is sick" stuff is what we are going with... Rose doesn't let his agent know? An agent with a relationship with Phil Jackson doesn't then "let them know"?
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In comment 13319675 DanMetroMan said:
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agent only played 6 seasons for Phil Jackson winning 4 rings.... and yet radio silence? Bizarre.
Don't forget who pays the agent - he has to represent his client, no matter how big a jackass or douchebag he may be.
My point was more... if the "kid is sick" stuff is what we are going with... Rose doesn't let his agent know? An agent with a relationship with Phil Jackson doesn't then "let them know"?
Got it - I just figured we were past the 'sick kid' hypothetical, pretty much everyone in NYC has figured out that was BS by now.
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
Maybe we'll get the whole story from Charley Rosen in 5 months.
They have a guy to build around. 4 years of Joakim Noah, a Derrick Rose who is a shell of his former self and an aging Carmelo Anthony aren't going to accomplish anything aside from keeping us firmly entrenched in NBA purgatory spinning our wheels and going nowhere.
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In comment 13319671 Keith said:
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
+1 to Keith. Melo is a total cancer. I can't believe there are any Knicks fans left who actually watch him and like Melo. Everything about him sucks, he is all about himself- has never and will never care about winning.
That being said, Rose is other-worldly dumb and irresponsible. Two different stories.
I can't wait until the day neither of the two are wearing a Knicks uni.
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In comment 13319671 Keith said:
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
Outside of his shooting percentage being lower than usual that's all he's ever done well, so what's your point? He's a scorer. He still has the ability to do that, and probably at a more efficient level on a team where he won't be asked to carry the load.
He's not a diva because he's never been one, and I disagree 100% that he doesn't care. That's a ridiculous assertion to make when he's playing through an injury that most guys would shut it down for.
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In comment 13319691 EricNY33 said:
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In comment 13319671 Keith said:
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
Outside of his shooting percentage being lower than usual that's all he's ever done well, so what's your point? He's a scorer. He still has the ability to do that, and probably at a more efficient level on a team where he won't be asked to carry the load.
He's not a diva because he's never been one, and I disagree 100% that he doesn't care. That's a ridiculous assertion to make when he's playing through an injury that most guys would shut it down for.
Eric- one thing I am sure of is Melo is looking forward to his yearly shut down and second half of the season off.
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
+1 to Keith. Melo is a total cancer. I can't believe there are any Knicks fans left who actually watch him and like Melo. Everything about him sucks, he is all about himself- has never and will never care about winning.
That being said, Rose is other-worldly dumb and irresponsible. Two different stories.
I can't wait until the day neither of the two are wearing a Knicks uni.
A cancer? Wow. Melo is a lot of things, but he's not a cancer, and this notion he doesn't care about winning is ridiculously absurd. If he was as selfish as people say then winning would only HELP his brand, so how exactly does he not care about winning again?
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In comment 13319723 Keith said:
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In comment 13319691 EricNY33 said:
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In comment 13319671 Keith said:
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What exactly is that? Take the lowest % shot every time down the floor?
Really? You're better than that man.
Oh am I? Are you sure about that?
Seriously though, Melo no longer does anything well enough like he used to. He scores a lot of points, mostly on contested 2 pointers out of the flow of an offense so when he misses(and he misses a LOT), it's usually a defensive rebound and leads to a fast break the other way(oh, and no he doesn't hustle back on defense either).
What does Melo do well these days? He's not a diva because he doesn't care. He has the life he wants, living in the city he wants to be in, making money hands over fist with little to no expectations.
Outside of his shooting percentage being lower than usual that's all he's ever done well, so what's your point? He's a scorer. He still has the ability to do that, and probably at a more efficient level on a team where he won't be asked to carry the load.
He's not a diva because he's never been one, and I disagree 100% that he doesn't care. That's a ridiculous assertion to make when he's playing through an injury that most guys would shut it down for.
Eric- one thing I am sure of is Melo is looking forward to his yearly shut down and second half of the season off.
Oh yeah. I'm sure. You're right.
Add in that Melo takes terrible shots where we never get a rebound and Rose mostly shoots from close in with teammates crashing and it leads to points for someone else.
Melo isn't the scorer he used to be and the rest of his game is so bad that even his scoring doesn't help this team.
Either way, it's stupid to talk about. If Melo cared about winning, he wouldn't be in NY.
Rose's game definitely doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt. Melo and KP need a distributing PG to maximize their potential, no doubt.
Add in that Melo takes terrible shots where we never get a rebound and Rose mostly shoots from close in with teammates crashing and it leads to points for someone else.
Melo isn't the scorer he used to be and the rest of his game is so bad that even his scoring doesn't help this team.
Either way, it's stupid to talk about. If Melo cared about winning, he wouldn't be in NY.
Because a guy can't care about winning and getting paid, right?
Melo is taking shots this season that in years past he was hitting. Maybe his shoulder injury has something to do with that? Nah, couldn't be that, could it?
Is he asked to do to much because of the roster? Probably. But he is not an all-star player anymore. And his antics last night are not what a leader does in a time where they need a leader.
I called him the worst PG in basketball last year and just said he needs to be traded or suspended. Your comment is pretty weird.
Would it really shock you if you found out Rose has/had a learning disability?
Rose's game definitely doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt. Melo and KP need a distributing PG to maximize their potential, no doubt.
More like Rose/Jennings dribble the ball until there's 6 seconds left on the clock then give it to Melo and say go ahead and make something happen.
Melo can still get his mid-range shot off almost at will. I don't know what you mean he can't create space. That isn't the problem at all. He's just missing those shots more, for whatever
lol. It must be difficult to be this stupid.
Then why is he averaging the 5th most shots per 36 minutes in his career if Rose doesnt pass him the ball?
Research is your friend.
Is this a serious post? The team needs a PG who distributes, but the ballhog PG they currently have on the roster isn't hurting? Bahahaha.
What's funny is the one player who is benefiting from Phil's "vision" in putting together this roster is Rose. Teams can't play off of Melo or KP (because, unlike Rose, they actually put some time into developing the ability to shoot the long ball) so he has all kinds of room to operate when he puts his head down and heads to the basket.
Is he asked to do to much because of the roster? Probably. But he is not an all-star player anymore. And his antics last night are not what a leader does in a time where they need a leader.
He doesn't pass well? Wrong. He's actually a very good passer when guys actually move to accept passes. His defense has always been bad. Not expecting miracles here, and his rebounding is fine when he's not chasing SF's around the perimeter being pulled away from the basket.
As for leadership... leaders are born, not made. He's not that type of guy. He tries, but even great leaders sometimes make mistakes and lose their cool.
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Rose's game definitely doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt. Melo and KP need a distributing PG to maximize their potential, no doubt.
Is this a serious post? The team needs a PG who distributes, but the ballhog PG they currently have on the roster isn't hurting? Bahahaha.
What's funny is the one player who is benefiting from Phil's "vision" in putting together this roster is Rose. Teams can't play off of Melo or KP (because, unlike Rose, they actually put some time into developing the ability to shoot the long ball) so he has all kinds of room to operate when he puts his head down and heads to the basket.
5th most shots per 36 in his career. Research my friend, research.
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on 15+ shots per game and Melo is averaging 22 pts on 18+ shots per game.
Add in that Melo takes terrible shots where we never get a rebound and Rose mostly shoots from close in with teammates crashing and it leads to points for someone else.
Melo isn't the scorer he used to be and the rest of his game is so bad that even his scoring doesn't help this team.
Either way, it's stupid to talk about. If Melo cared about winning, he wouldn't be in NY.
Because a guy can't care about winning and getting paid, right?
Melo is taking shots this season that in years past he was hitting. Maybe his shoulder injury has something to do with that? Nah, couldn't be that, could it?
The Knicks would love to trade Melo. He wants to make his money and retire in NY-- he has held them hostage for several years with his no-trade clause. The last thing Carmelo Anthony has ever cared about is being in a position to win.
Dep- the Cavs can't trade for Rose because, besides the fact why would a contending team trade for this guys attitude, salary won't match up. There is literally no feasible trade salary wise.
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He isnt asked to carry the load. He has/had two other guys averaging over 17 a game. He doesnt pass well, he doesnt defend at all, and his rebounding is pedestrian.
Is he asked to do to much because of the roster? Probably. But he is not an all-star player anymore. And his antics last night are not what a leader does in a time where they need a leader.
He doesn't pass well? Wrong. He's actually a very good passer when guys actually move to accept passes. His defense has always been bad. Not expecting miracles here, and his rebounding is fine when he's not chasing SF's around the perimeter being pulled away from the basket.
As for leadership... leaders are born, not made. He's not that type of guy. He tries, but even great leaders sometimes make mistakes and lose their cool.
Melo has always had the ball in his more than any of his teammates and he averages like 3 assists per game. He may be able to pass it - he just doesnt do it.
Dep- the Cavs can't trade for Rose because, besides the fact why would a contending team trade for this guys attitude, salary won't match up. There is literally no feasible trade salary wise.
Basic cap rules are way beyond some people here.
Dep- the Cavs can't trade for Rose because, besides the fact why would a contending team trade for this guys attitude, salary won't match up. There is literally no feasible trade salary wise.
I made an oversight on cap room, so you are right. And his attitude? I believed they took on JR Smith who was deemed a cancer and a poor fit and that turned out real nice for them. Lebron came out and said they need a PG, he would fit the bill. Shit, if they acquired about Rondo - they will acquire about anyone.
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Derrick Rose defense force could try to shift blame and make this AT ALL about Melo.
Dep- the Cavs can't trade for Rose because, besides the fact why would a contending team trade for this guys attitude, salary won't match up. There is literally no feasible trade salary wise.
Basic cap rules are way beyond some people here.
Please explain how Melo's shot is being affected by a player even though he is shooting more this year than his career norms. Us people dont quite get it.
Phil Jackson, 71-year-old president of the Knicks, tweets out his relationship status but is silent when the team loses its point guard.
China?
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We're stuck with Rose for the year, I bet.
China?
It doesn't mean he has to play.
10000% agree.
My biggest concern when they brought him in was his age. Would he look long term, or would his short window due to age cause him make win now moves?
You would think even a vague statement would have been released by BJ Armstrong, Rose himself or the Knicks (if not both) .
well I for one am shocked that the combination of a 70 year old ex coach and a former Stern lackey, neither of whom had any demonstrated experience putting together an NBA roster, have been unable to field a winning team.
Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN 19s19 seconds ago
The media spin is starting: "Derrick Rose misses his son." I would damn hope so. But what does that have to do with missing work/not calling
6.022 x 10^23 percent.
clearly i was wrong aboit it being bad enough to find an excuse
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to the shootaround, misses his son so much at that very time that he travels to the airport, takes a flight to Chicago while also not telling the team/ ignoring attempts to get in contact with him. The Knicks better suspend him at least a few games or they will look silly. On what planet is this considered okay?
clearly i was wrong aboit it being bad enough to find an excuse
I wasn't taking a shot at you. I'm just trying to understand the rationale of this guy. I mean it's wonderful he loves/misses his son but beyond it being bizarre he had to do this on a game day, the fact he wasn't responding to the Knicks makes it look really bad.
i have read multiple interviews with him that being away from his son is the hardest part, but again no excuse
No one is going to forget about it. They're going to have to toss him overboard and just take whatever they can get in return. It's just a matter of whether they want him back in the locker room or not.
i have read multiple interviews with him that being away from his son is the hardest part, but again no excuse
If he really misses his son that much (and is unable to relocate him) then I guess there is no point even worrying about him wanting max from the Knicks because he's pretty much limited to the Bulls, Twolves or Pacers right? I mean again, I basically grew up without a dad, so I find it beyond commendable that he loves/cares about his son but assuming this story is accurate, the decision making is that of someone who is not stable ala Kanye West. Somehow hundreds of pro-athletes play away from "home" and yet to my recollection this has NEVER happened.
They had a day off 1/3, another 1/5, again 1/8 and again have one day. He couldn't have gone home one of those days? Even directly after the game with team permission? They were in Indiana 1/7, why not ask for permission to go see his son that night and during the day off? Odd.
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at this point i think all he van say is i am sorry to the team and basically tell the media he made a mkstake, there is really nothing he can say...
i have read multiple interviews with him that being away from his son is the hardest part, but again no excuse
If he really misses his son that much (and is unable to relocate him) then I guess there is no point even worrying about him wanting max from the Knicks because he's pretty much limited to the Bulls, Twolves or Pacers right? I mean again, I basically grew up without a dad, so I find it beyond commendable that he loves/cares about his son but assuming this story is accurate, the decision making is that of someone who is not stable ala Kanye West. Somehow hundreds of pro-athletes play away from "home" and yet to my recollection this has NEVER happened.
They had a day off 1/3, another 1/5, again 1/8 and again have one day. He couldn't have gone home one of those days? Even directly after the game with team permission? They were in Indiana 1/7, why not ask for permission to go see his son that night and during the day off? Odd.
i dont know what the agreement he has with his baby mama, it seems gets his kid in spurts, he had hkm for awhilr in the summer then had him again on thanksgiving
The Knicks are DEFINITELY not making the playoffs and this lottery will be so full of talent that winning it isn't even necessary.
I still struggle to see a team where he's a fit and a trade makes sense for the Knicks. Rose is an expiring at this point- if he's even tradable it's for someone else's junk. Rather just let the contract expire.
The reported lack of response to the Knicks attempts to contact him are the worst part in my view. Immature people make strange decisions but once you make the move to ditch the team and head to Chicago at least have the balls to tell them what you did/why you did it. If God forbid his son were say being abused (obviously not the case here) then you tell the Knicks, or at the very least communicate this fact to someone who will/respond to their attempts.
Derrick Rose will address the media today. (Maybe he'll begin by ripping - yet again - the Knicks defensive effort against New Orleans.)
Carmelo quit on his team yesterday too. He just waited until the 3rd quarter when things were going bad.
Now you're talking.
In all honesty..... if the Knicks trade Melo and get a lottery pick - its a great season. If they can trade both Melo and Noah, christmas came early.
I really never warmed to him. Fairly or unfairly, I viewed him as scummy after the rape allegations, and then he showed up here and looked scummy, and played a dumb and ugly brand of basketball.
Get over yourself. Holy shit. Ill criticize Melo whenever the fuck I want from him being one of the most overrated "superstars" in the sports history.
I really never warmed to him. Fairly or unfairly, I viewed him as scummy after the rape allegations, and then he showed up here and looked scummy, and played a dumb and ugly brand of basketball.
He's tough to trade because he is on his last year of a deal with no guarantee to sign a reasonable deal after this year. If he had 2-3 years and 30-35 million left - he would be very easy to trade.
to who? for what?
What contender or even playoff team has a starting PG worse then Rose and any kind of salary match and asset that's better then just letting him expire?
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he would have been easy to move. Expiring deal, incentive for FA's to stay with current team. Upper echelon NBA skill. He could be a difference maker for a contender(or team that thinks they are). He wouldn't be a 3rd PG. He'd either be a starting PG or a 6th man(where he'd thrive).
What contender or even playoff team has a starting PG worse then Rose and any kind of salary match and asset that's better then just letting him expire?
Answering this question would require a basic understanding of other team's rosters and cap rules. In other words, you're asking too much of kmed.
But have no fear, he'll continue to repeat his mantra that other teams would have been dying to acquire Rose for real assets if not for this unfortunate incident.
5.4 assists
42% from the floor
1-4 as a starter
Yep, DRose is the problem.
There has to be more to this story. Maybe he did text, but he had the wrong number(kidding Dan!). Just an odd story for the knicks to just look the other way(unless they agreed that they'd shop him instead of suspending him).
Ok let's say he's slightly better then average. Here are the top 10 teams in each conference, with their starting PG:
1) Cavs- Kyrie
2) Raptors- Lowry
3) Celtics- Thomas
4) Hawks- Schroeder
5) Pacers- Teague
6) Hornets- Kemba
7) Wizards- Wall
8) Bucks- Giannis
9) Bulls- a PG shit show, so he'd probably be an upgrade but they need shooting. Also can't see a scenario they trade back for him.
10) Pistons- Jackson
West-
1) Warriors- Curry
2) Spurs- Parker, but Mills is really their main PG
3) Rockets- Harden
4) Clippers- Paul
5) Griz- Conley
6) Jazz- Hill
7) Thunder- Westbrook
8) Blazers- Lillard
9) Kings- Collison
10) Kings- Holliday
So find me a team in the above 20 teams who fit the following 3 options:
1) Rose would be an upgrade for them. I won't even argue whoever you pick, you just have to believe that to be true.
2) Rose would be a talent fit. Again, won't even argue what you pick, you just have to be able to make the case for it.
3) if you can find anyone who fits the criteria for 1 and 2, find me a deal that fits under the cap using ESPN trade machine that's a realistic one.
I'm not trying to back and forth, I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any deals that make sense.
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but we disagree on rose's ranking and talent level. You think he's one of the worst PG's, I think he's slightly better than average.
Ok let's say he's slightly better then average. Here are the top 10 teams in each conference, with their starting PG:
1) Cavs- Kyrie
2) Raptors- Lowry
3) Celtics- Thomas
4) Hawks- Schroeder
5) Pacers- Teague
6) Hornets- Kemba
7) Wizards- Wall
8) Bucks- Giannis
9) Bulls- a PG shit show, so he'd probably be an upgrade but they need shooting. Also can't see a scenario they trade back for him.
10) Pistons- Jackson
West-
1) Warriors- Curry
2) Spurs- Parker, but Mills is really their main PG
3) Rockets- Harden
4) Clippers- Paul
5) Griz- Conley
6) Jazz- Hill
7) Thunder- Westbrook
8) Blazers- Lillard
9) Kings- Collison
10) Kings- Holliday
So find me a team in the above 20 teams who fit the following 3 options:
1) Rose would be an upgrade for them. I won't even argue whoever you pick, you just have to believe that to be true.
2) Rose would be a talent fit. Again, won't even argue what you pick, you just have to be able to make the case for it.
3) if you can find anyone who fits the criteria for 1 and 2, find me a deal that fits under the cap using ESPN trade machine that's a realistic one.
I'm not trying to back and forth, I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any deals that make sense.
sgrts, even if what you say is correct and he's not an option for starting PG, you don't think any of those teams need a 6th man?
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not suspended, fined instead. Ugh.
There has to be more to this story. Maybe he did text, but he had the wrong number(kidding Dan!). Just an odd story for the knicks to just look the other way(unless they agreed that they'd shop him instead of suspending him).
My brain is leading toward the last thing you said. You can't make this work with just a fine unless you are promising to work the phones to get him out of town.
an expiring disgruntled player gets you a cruddy contract or 2nd rounders back.
and melo gets maybe young player and cruddy contract back.
selling at the lows never returns much
OK so find me a trade, any trade with any team, where Rose makes sense from a basketball perspective and a sensible deal can be made with salary cap in mind.
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I can see a contender trading for him as a 6th man(where he'd thrive), but it doesn't have to be a contender. There may be teams who view him as a long term option. He's still young and has proven to be completely over the knee issues.
OK so find me a trade, any trade with any team, where Rose makes sense from a basketball perspective and a sensible deal can be made with salary cap in mind.
the cap is the real hindrance for this idea you can trade Rose. The teams that would want him don't have room and the teams with room probably don't want him
According to reports on Monday, Rose was not given permission to leave the team. The Knicks were reportedly unable to reach Rose and sent someone to his apartment to check on him when he didn't arrive for the game.
When pressed why he didn't contact the Knicks to explain his absence, Rose said he didn't answer their calls because he needed "space."
Rose said that he contacted the Knicks later on Monday night, and when he returned on Tuesday, explained his absence to team president Phil Jackson and GM Steve Mills. Rose said both accepted his explanation.
Rose also denied reports that his relationship with Jeff Hornacek has "frayed" after being unhappy with his diminishing role.
Link - ( New Window )
If Rose wasn't such a colossal moron, he'd have just told the Knicks he was blowing off the game ahead of schedule, they could have floated a fake story about a family emergency, and started working the trade lines immediately.
You're welcome.
Why would you even bring this up? It's not happening.
"Because some people just want to watch the world burn..."
You're welcome.
Dont hate that deal at all.
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Megdal thinks a max deal for Rose would possibly the worst deal in the history of the Knicks franchise.
Why would you even bring this up? It's not happening.
"Because some people just want to watch the world burn..."
As a Knicks fan, if you can honestly believe any bad decision definitely wont happen, you haven't been paying attention for a long, long, long time. Knicks and Kings are the the only two contenders for worst run franchises in the NBA.
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In comment 13320292 DanMetroMan said:
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Megdal thinks a max deal for Rose would possibly the worst deal in the history of the Knicks franchise.
Why would you even bring this up? It's not happening.
"Because some people just want to watch the world burn..."
As a Knicks fan, if you can honestly believe any bad decision definitely wont happen, you haven't been paying attention for a long, long, long time. Knicks and Kings are the the only two contenders for worst run franchises in the NBA.
Dude you're depressing as hell. If you feel that way stop rooting for them.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
If the Knicks do decide to make some trades, Lee can help a contender. Actually, Lee to the Rockets makes a ton of sense. They can use a wing to take Brewers minutes for sure. Lee is definitely a tradable guy. Not sure why the 6ers would want him, but I'd trade Lee in a second right now for some assets.
Jennings, Lee, KOQ, Holiday. But it makes no sense for them to acquire all these guys when there are plenty of great PGs at the top of this year's draft.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
sure, if you think the guys who put together this roster are all of a sudden going to turn into competent executives. I tend to think guys who have a track record of stupid decisions are likely to continue making stupid decisions going forward.
Would he fit playing next to KP? By all accounts he seems like the most talented player to fall down in the draft.
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In comment 13320311 Sgrcts said:
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
sure, if you think the guys who put together this roster are all of a sudden going to turn into competent executives. I tend to think guys who have a track record of stupid decisions are likely to continue making stupid decisions going forward.
Ok... I choose to be optimistic. You can continue the doom and gloom all you want.
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
White people will save the Knicks?
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In comment 13320311 Sgrcts said:
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
White people will save the Knicks?
He's a Knick because no one wanted him. He has done nothing to make anyone want to give up assets for him now.
the reason you become a fan of a team is because you enjoy watching them.play, you want them to win and it takes you away from life for a couple of hours, but if you are so miserable why even bother?
why soend hours on a message board talking about how miserable they are? i can think m of 100 different things i would rather do than to bitch about my teams...
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I think we can get something good for him as well. By good I mean a mid to late first. I also think that Noah might be tradable by the deadline. He's been playing pretty well. If there is a team over the cap that has an expiring, we might be able to get a pick for him. It's time to break it down.
He's a Knick because no one wanted him. He has done nothing to make anyone want to give up assets for him now.
noah actually has played well, its ironic because as soon as he started playing better it seems the knicks started to losing
the reason you become a fan of a team is because you enjoy watching them.play, you want them to win and it takes you away from life for a couple of hours, but if you are so miserable why even bother?
why soend hours on a message board talking about how miserable they are? i can think m of 100 different things i would rather do than to bitch about my teams...
not telling
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
Kuz is 27, and both Kuz and Baker are just guys. You aren't building a contender around Kuz, and Baker is a typical end of the bench guard. You have to do some MAJOR projecting to believe Baker is anything special Every team in the NBA has guys like Baker.
Hermangomez can be a good player, but again, you think the Knicks are building a championship contender because of Hermangomez?
Like you look around the NBA and see the loaded rosters and think to yourself "Glad the Knicks have Kuz, Baker and Hermangomez" as a source of optimism? Sure, if the Knicks won the lottery and added Fultz, you might say Hermangomez has a good chance to be a good role player. However, look at the Knicks young core and compare it to say the Wolves, the Bucks or the 6ers and you think what the Knicks have inspires confidence? Best players under 25:
Knicks: KP/Hermangomez/Baker
76ers: Simmons/Embiid/Noel or Saaric
Wolves: KAT/Lavine/Wiggins
Bucks: Giannis/Parker/Middleton
Well sure- Knicks have all our picks! However, our pick will almost definitely be lower then the 76ers or the Wolves, plus the 76ers have the Lakers pick coming up how soon as well. Or what about the 3rd in the East celtics, who also have some super high 1st rounders coming soon, as well as a ton of high upside young talent? Or the Jazz?
I mean, how do you look at the types of moves the Knicks have made over the past few seasons, what other teams in the NBA have on their roster and their picks and think optimistically about the Knicks future?
the reason you become a fan of a team is because you enjoy watching them.play, you want them to win and it takes you away from life for a couple of hours, but if you are so miserable why even bother?
why soend hours on a message board talking about how miserable they are? i can think m of 100 different things i would rather do than to bitch about my teams...
Sports don't make me miserable. Speaking the truth about the Knicks doesnt make me less of a fan, nor does fully supporting everything the Knicks do make you more of a fan. You choose to look at the Knicks with a glass half full approach, good for you. I, and many others, choose to look at the Knicks with a more realistic approach to what they've done and what their history shows us.
Again, that doesn't make me miserable. I love basketball, and I can be honest as to what my team is doing without it impacting my emotions.
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but we disagree on rose's ranking and talent level. You think he's one of the worst PG's, I think he's slightly better than average.
Ok let's say he's slightly better then average. Here are the top 10 teams in each conference, with their starting PG:
1) Cavs- Kyrie
2) Raptors- Lowry
3) Celtics- Thomas
4) Hawks- Schroeder
5) Pacers- Teague
6) Hornets- Kemba
7) Wizards- Wall
8) Bucks- Giannis
9) Bulls- a PG shit show, so he'd probably be an upgrade but they need shooting. Also can't see a scenario they trade back for him.
10) Pistons- Jackson
West-
1) Warriors- Curry
2) Spurs- Parker, but Mills is really their main PG
3) Rockets- Harden
4) Clippers- Paul
5) Griz- Conley
6) Jazz- Hill
7) Thunder- Westbrook
8) Blazers- Lillard
9) Kings- Collison
10) Kings- Holliday
So find me a team in the above 20 teams who fit the following 3 options:
1) Rose would be an upgrade for them. I won't even argue whoever you pick, you just have to believe that to be true.
2) Rose would be a talent fit. Again, won't even argue what you pick, you just have to be able to make the case for it.
3) if you can find anyone who fits the criteria for 1 and 2, find me a deal that fits under the cap using ESPN trade machine that's a realistic one.
I'm not trying to back and forth, I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any deals that make sense.
I actually think the team that makes the most sense of those listed would be Milwaukee. First, it would probably make Rose happy if being away from his son really is the big issue for him. Chicago and Milwaukee are less than 2 hours apart.
From the Bucks point of view, they could use scoring off the bench, and if you look at that team, the one guy that they could definitely benefit to upgrade over is the 20-30 minutes per night that they are giving to Dellavedova. I know earlier in the year, and even dating back to last season, there were rumblings that they were looking to move on from Greg Monroe. A Rose for Monroe deal straight up works according to the trade machine. If Milwaukee throws in a pick that might be the best NY can hope for.
Not to mention, Giannis is their PG. He's playing 36 minutes, so even if you think having a primary ball handler back up would make sense and back off some of Giannis's minutes, that leaves like 16 minutes that a ball dominant guard would have to play. Rose simply can't play off the ball. If Rose is unhappy here, you think he's going to be happy playing sub 20 minutes as a bench player?
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Kuz is 27, and both Kuz and Baker are just guys. You aren't building a contender around Kuz, and Baker is a typical end of the bench guard. You have to do some MAJOR projecting to believe Baker is anything special Every team in the NBA has guys like Baker.
Hermangomez can be a good player, but again, you think the Knicks are building a championship contender because of Hermangomez?
Like you look around the NBA and see the loaded rosters and think to yourself "Glad the Knicks have Kuz, Baker and Hermangomez" as a source of optimism? Sure, if the Knicks won the lottery and added Fultz, you might say Hermangomez has a good chance to be a good role player. However, look at the Knicks young core and compare it to say the Wolves, the Bucks or the 6ers and you think what the Knicks have inspires confidence? Best players under 25:
Knicks: KP/Hermangomez/Baker
76ers: Simmons/Embiid/Noel or Saaric
Wolves: KAT/Lavine/Wiggins
Bucks: Giannis/Parker/Middleton
Well sure- Knicks have all our picks! However, our pick will almost definitely be lower then the 76ers or the Wolves, plus the 76ers have the Lakers pick coming up how soon as well. Or what about the 3rd in the East celtics, who also have some super high 1st rounders coming soon, as well as a ton of high upside young talent? Or the Jazz?
I mean, how do you look at the types of moves the Knicks have made over the past few seasons, what other teams in the NBA have on their roster and their picks and think optimistically about the Knicks future?
Jeremy Lin was just your typical end of the bench type guard too... until he wasn't. I am not saying Baker is ever going to become what Lin is but I'd like to see him get a chance to prove himself. He's at least proven he deserves more minutes.
You need "just guys" to build a championship caliber team, no? I am not gonna freak out because the Knicks decided to try and put a team around their highest paid player and went for it. It's not working, but with the one lottery pick they had they wound up drafting a foundational player in Porzingis while trying to win. They weren't doing the same thing the Sixers and Timberwolves were doing because neither of those teams had a Carmelo Anthony type of talent on their team.
So now we'll see. If this season continues to go the way it's going they'll have another lottery pick and we'll see who they get there. Nothing is a given, but at least they'll have a chance at a premiere talent to add to KP and the "just guys" type players in Kuz and Hernangomez.
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Jeremy Lin was just your typical end of the bench type guard too... until he wasn't. I am not saying Baker is ever going to become what Lin is but I'd like to see him get a chance to prove himself. He's at least proven he deserves more minutes.
You need "just guys" to build a championship caliber team, no? I am not gonna freak out because the Knicks decided to try and put a team around their highest paid player and went for it. It's not working, but with the one lottery pick they had they wound up drafting a foundational player in Porzingis while trying to win. They weren't doing the same thing the Sixers and Timberwolves were doing because neither of those teams had a Carmelo Anthony type of talent on their team.
So now we'll see. If this season continues to go the way it's going they'll have another lottery pick and we'll see who they get there. Nothing is a given, but at least they'll have a chance at a premiere talent to add to KP and the "just guys" type players in Kuz and Hernangomez.
For sure, Baker should get more minutes because we have no reason to not give him them. I wont argue there- I would have been OVERJOYED if the Knicks had a PG rotation of say Grant, Randle and Baker and a C rotation of Lopez, O'Quinn and Hermangomez this season(with some KP in there).
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
yeah because your way can guarantee a championship team?
man the sixers have tanked for how many years now? yeah they are contenders..
how bout those Timberwolves!
the bucks have young talent but now they are a middle of the pack team, can they keep getting better?
you can not guarantee shit with the way you want to build, just like i cant say my way is better
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
Is there some other reality we're not seeing? This is a roster Phil built to contend THIS season...yet they are are 4 games under .500 and have the 26th ranked defense. They are significantly closer to the lottery than contending. That's reality. Other than KP, what's to get excited about going forward? They don't even have max cap space this summer thanks to Phil's moves...and even if they did he's proven unable to even get top free agents to meet with him. Looks like they'll get a late lottery pick...let's hope they get someone good.
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
yeah because your way can guarantee a championship team?
man the sixers have tanked for how many years now? yeah they are contenders..
how bout those Timberwolves!
the bucks have young talent but now they are a middle of the pack team, can they keep getting better?
you can not guarantee shit with the way you want to build, just like i cant say my way is better
Yea, you are SO right. Its practically a toss up which roster you'd rather have between the Timberwolves or the Bucks and the Knicks!
Its ok to be scared of numbers, but they wont bite you.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. If you're unwilling to learn what stats mean, thats fine, but maybe don't criticize just because you don't understand?
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
what does it say that Phil can't even get the team to that level?
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In comment 13320391 nygiants16 said:
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
How about that Rose is tradable?
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In comment 13320403 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13320391 nygiants16 said:
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
How about that Rose is tradable?
Well he's an expiring deal so he technically IS tradable. That being said he's not tradable for anything with much value.
What we have to hope is he plays great for the next month and some team who needs another scoring guard can give us something of value. If not, just let him walk.
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I'd be happy at this point with the Knicks just not sucking and being a joke of a basketball organization. Make the playoffs, finish above .500.
what does it say that Phil can't even get the team to that level?
Nothing has proven it yet. However, I think starting now he can seriously consider life post Melo, which is not something he could do before. Not when they re-signed him.
you are thebonly person i have asked to actually watch the game because all you use is stats to back up your claim and quite honestly i am not the only one who said it to you...
i have plenty of debates with other posters and never once have i attacked the personally...
and dont act like you never attack people personally, any poster that shows an ounce of optimism you call a homer or delusional...
how about this nevdr adress me on here and i wont adress you, deal?
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated. Im pretty exhausted from the media and fans trying to justify moves like the Rose deal as a good gamble. It was stupid to begin with.
Knicks are constantly the dumbest money at the table in the NBA. Buying names, retooling for a run at the "playoffs" where maybe you could steal a round, as if that is a goal for an aging team.
We get into this situation time and again because of the casual "I just want to see some good basketball already" attitude. Getting Rose and Noah when they cant take you anywhere is an embarrassment was more than a rebuild year.
.500 basketball is the worst unless you are an upswing to something better with good young talent (Milwaukee).
What does that get you? You get to purchase overpriced MSG tickets in April to get blown out by the Celtics or the Cavs just so you can post on FB/snapchat that you went to a Knicks playoff game? I've done that ordeal and it's the worst.
NBA playoffs are the most deceiving team. Being in the NBA playoffs doesn't indicate that you are relevant like it does with the NFL and MLB.
You can't win without stars and in the new CBA stars will not be leaving the teams that drafted them because they will be losing $70M if they choose to do so. That really only leaves one way to build and that's by landing stars in the draft.
Ironically, the Rose trade was the one move I was in favor of this past summer, figuring we could spin him for an asset or two if he plays well for half a season (See: Aroldis Chapman). I was giving the Knicks way too much credit though. Now we just have to cut our losses and get what we can in the way of draft picks for some of these guys.
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated. Im pretty exhausted from the media and fans trying to justify moves like the Rose deal as a good gamble. It was stupid to begin with.
Knicks are constantly the dumbest money at the table in the NBA. Buying names, retooling for a run at the "playoffs" where maybe you could steal a round, as if that is a goal for an aging team.
We get into this situation time and again because of the casual "I just want to see some good basketball already" attitude. Getting Rose and Noah when they cant take you anywhere is an embarrassment was more than a rebuild year.
The bold is the basis for 99% of my debates with fans of my own teams. If I'm a Browns fan I want them to be really, really good even if the build is going to take 2-3 more years with my franchise sucking all this time. I'm not trading my first for Tony Romo and exclaiming "All I want is to be watchable again".
It's fine that some people just want there team to be "watchable" but I'd much prefer suffering through multiple awful Knicks seasons with the result being 3-4 very good young talents than the Knicks adding veterans and being a capped 45 max win roster. It's near comic levels the way people mock the Wolves. if we swapped rosters most on here would be MIA from BBI thanks to all of the splooge on their keyboards. The Knicks are neither talented nor young with upside. It's a MASSIVE if but sans KP the Knicks situation would likely be better than only one team... the Nets. KP is the one beacon of hope.
Again, I don't think you understand metrics or what they mean. PER is a really flawed stat because it doesnt pay attention to defense, but the top 11 in PER is Westbrook, Giannis, AD, Harden, CP3, KD, Cousins, Thomas, Kawhi, Lebron and Butler.
I'm guessing you don't have a problem with that, right?
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
A) Metrics aren't "pure bs". Every single winning team in every single major sport has 100% adopted analytics. Who knows more- Daryl Morey or Carl in CT?
B) I've mentioned metrics once in this entire thread.
C) Your eyes are a piece of the puzzle that go with stats. Its always been like that.
D) Anyone who throws away stats for their "eyes" shouldnt comment on players they don't watch every game. You aren't watching enough basketball to have opinions on players on teams you watch less then say 30 games of if you ignore stats.
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
Tell that to the Pelicans?
Tell that to the Pelicans?
When you trade 2 lottery picks for Jrue Holliday, you get what you deserve.
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
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should be noted that Kanter is arguably one of the most talented 1 way bigs in the NBA. He's an incredible offensive big... but absolutely pathetic defensively. If Kanter were even average defensively he's likely be a 20+ 10 superstar (more minutes).
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
Well if Amar'e were an even average defender he'd be a perennial MVP. I'm not even a big Kanter fan (he's fucking awful defensively) but I'm willing to accept he's one of the best offensive bigs in the NBA. He's really talented... on one side of the ball.
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Tell that to the Pelicans?
When you trade 2 lottery picks for Jrue Holliday, you get what you deserve.
Sure, but the point is you need to find young talent to build around a young superstar. KP most likely will never end up the player AD is(injuries aside), and the Pelicans have made a lot of very similar all in moves to the Knicks, rather then being patient. The Knicks havent shown the level of patience needed to prove they can build around a young superstar.
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should be noted that Kanter is arguably one of the most talented 1 way bigs in the NBA. He's an incredible offensive big... but absolutely pathetic defensively. If Kanter were even average defensively he's likely be a 20+ 10 superstar (more minutes).
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
STAT couldn't play in the post ever. Kanter is kind of the opposite, extremely skilled but no athletic whatsoever. Kanter may even be a better rebounder.
Agreed. I don't really ever look at PER because of the way it essentially ignores defense. RPM is my favorite all in metric, although it has its flaws as well, especially with sample size and with understanding roles and volume.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
I got killed on here for saying Okafor is Kanter without the shooting and rebounding. But was told he would be a 30 PPG scorer who you can build around.
I think he'll thrive in the role thesixers are already using him (6th man) but that was a disappointing pick to say the least.
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at 43rd in Centers in RPM. 11th in ORPM but 67th in DRPM.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
I got killed on here for saying Okafor is Kanter without the shooting and rebounding. But was told he would be a 30 PPG scorer who you can build around.
I think he'll thrive in the role thesixers are already using him (6th man) but that was a disappointing pick to say the least.
The problem for the sixers is their pieces do not fit..
their best shooter may be embiid..
simmons thrives as a passer but can not shoot a lick..
okafor has gotten 3 dnps in this last 3 games and seems to only play now when embiid sits..
Noel wants to be traded..
for all the tanking they did, they drafted 3 guys that play the same position and simmons who is a point forward who cant shoot
I hated the Noah signing and the Rose deal appears to be a short-term bust, but I haven't seen any evidence that Phil doesn't highly value draft picks. And that's how teams are built. It doesn't mean every pick will be a star, but it does mean they'll avoid moves like trading a pair of lottery picks for a non-star.
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In comment 13320525 Sgrcts said:
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at 43rd in Centers in RPM. 11th in ORPM but 67th in DRPM.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
I got killed on here for saying Okafor is Kanter without the shooting and rebounding. But was told he would be a 30 PPG scorer who you can build around.
I think he'll thrive in the role thesixers are already using him (6th man) but that was a disappointing pick to say the least.
The problem for the sixers is their pieces do not fit..
their best shooter may be embiid..
simmons thrives as a passer but can not shoot a lick..
okafor has gotten 3 dnps in this last 3 games and seems to only play now when embiid sits..
Noel wants to be traded..
for all the tanking they did, they drafted 3 guys that play the same position and simmons who is a point forward who cant shoot
Embiid is a really good shooter. Ilyasova is a good stopgap fit for them. He fits solidly between Embiid and Simmons. Saric can shoot too, he may be a Danilo Gallinari type but better passing/rebounding.
They need to convert Noel and their 2 picks into 2 shooters at the guard spots. But they've done really nicely for themselves outside Okafor. You draft good talents and teams will trade for them. Noel is better than a bunch of guys taken before and after him from that draft.
Sgcrt know as much basketball as my 2 year old daughter does. Every argument is the same thing. Ask him about how to defend the pick and roll, high-low offensive game, any type of motion offense and his calculator breaks.
Everyone know there's a role for advanced stats in the world, but to use them to base on a players play and impact and that alone is just plain silly. There's a reason why coaches scout, watch film, break down film. The eyes will always be better than the calculator.
Sgcrt know as much basketball as my 2 year old daughter does. Every argument is the same thing. Ask him about how to defend the pick and roll, high-low offensive game, any type of motion offense and his calculator breaks.
Everyone know there's a role for advanced stats in the world, but to use them to base on a players play and impact and that alone is just plain silly. There's a reason why coaches scout, watch film, break down film. The eyes will always be better than the calculator.
I'm proud of you, you went an entire post without mentioning Melo or Rubio! There might be hope for you yet.
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yet mentions me just about every day when I am not even conversing with him. hahah, good times.
Sgcrt know as much basketball as my 2 year old daughter does. Every argument is the same thing. Ask him about how to defend the pick and roll, high-low offensive game, any type of motion offense and his calculator breaks.
Everyone know there's a role for advanced stats in the world, but to use them to base on a players play and impact and that alone is just plain silly. There's a reason why coaches scout, watch film, break down film. The eyes will always be better than the calculator.
I'm proud of you, you went an entire post without mentioning Melo or Rubio! There might be hope for you yet.
You forgot Rose too!
Oh shit....
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
I dont get this attitude at all. The "KP's peak starts in 4 years so until then we can mess around" attitude. That's not how you build a team. You cant wake up in year 5 or year 6 of KP and add a lot of talent all at once. IT's the Lebron on the Cavs 1.0 problem. It's hard to get talent and you cant waste time and effort with mess around rosters.
We should be in asset accumulation mode. Getting higher picks and signing younger FAs who could maybe blossom (hard in this environment).
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In comment 13320444 Deej said:
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
I dont get this attitude at all. The "KP's peak starts in 4 years so until then we can mess around" attitude. That's not how you build a team. You cant wake up in year 5 or year 6 of KP and add a lot of talent all at once. IT's the Lebron on the Cavs 1.0 problem. It's hard to get talent and you cant waste time and effort with mess around rosters.
We should be in asset accumulation mode. Getting higher picks and signing younger FAs who could maybe blossom (hard in this environment).
Yup. I have said this all along. This redundant, dead-end strategy we keep trying to employ where we add aged vets and try to just be "competitive" and make the playoffs is useless. This gets you nowhere in the NBA.
We have a kid worth building a team around now. That was one of the biggest first steps. We need to accumulate assets, get younger, and look to build a sustainable winner.
Putting teams like this on the court year in and year out is a waste of time. The Knicks aren't going anywhere with this roster.
Yup. I have said this all along. This redundant, dead-end strategy we keep trying to employ where we add aged vets and try to just be "competitive" and make the playoffs is useless. This gets you nowhere in the NBA.
We have a kid worth building a team around now. That was one of the biggest first steps. We need to accumulate assets, get younger, and look to build a sustainable winner.
Putting teams like this on the court year in and year out is a waste of time. The Knicks aren't going anywhere with this roster.
I agree with this but I don't think that was ever going to be an option under Phil Jackson.
This is a 70 guy with god complex (I might be stretching there) that is used to winning at a pretty steady clip. He was never going to go through the long rebuild. Phil took the road where they possibly have an small outside chance to make some noise in the next 3/4 years and then start over again. And I can't say I blame him. In theory, this should be a very competitive team.
What's frustrating the most to me is that 90% of the problems with this team are between their ears. I look at the east and have a hard time understanding how we are so much worse than the Celtics and everyone behind them (talent-wise). I just don't believe it. Not when you have KP, Melo, Rose, and the rest of the supporting cast. To me, they have enough to be competitive and have a small chance to make some noise if they get lucky.
The problem is that you'd need these veteran Knick players to change up their game. You'd need them to be aggressive. You'd need them to be open-minded. You'd need them to be coachable. Unfortunately, veteran players are who they are. You aren't going to be able to mold and coach them (IMO) like younger players. Therefore, you then need to rely on how good they WERE and hope they can continue or repeat that. That's where the Knicks are and it's a thin line to walk.
This is a close-minded, undisciplined, low IQ team that is sinking fast. And it sucks because I know they could be a lot better. Obviously not the best, but that's just the NBA these days.
I'd rather be competitive with a shot (however small it may be) then to sit around for 10+ years and wait for the next MJ or Lebron to walk through the door (and have it never happen).
I hate the idea of "make some noise". We had a ZERO percent chance of winning the title this year. Noise is irrelevant.
Anyway, the missing ingredient is athleticism. We lack it. Noah was never a super athlete. Melo got old. Rose isnt what he was. Lee was never a great athlete. KOQ isnt a leaper. Kuz, Baker etc. -- below average NBA athletes.
Athletes defend and move on offense and run the floor. We need more of them.
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What's frustrating the most to me is that 90% of the problems with this team are between their ears. I look at the east and have a hard time understanding how we are so much worse than the Celtics and everyone behind them (talent-wise). I just don't believe it. Not when you have KP, Melo, Rose, and the rest of the supporting cast. To me, they have enough to be competitive and have a small chance to make some noise if they get lucky.
I hate the idea of "make some noise". We had a ZERO percent chance of winning the title this year. Noise is irrelevant.
Anyway, the missing ingredient is athleticism. We lack it. Noah was never a super athlete. Melo got old. Rose isnt what he was. Lee was never a great athlete. KOQ isnt a leaper. Kuz, Baker etc. -- below average NBA athletes.
Athletes defend and move on offense and run the floor. We need more of them.
Fair enough. And I hate the idea of tanking for years to stockpile draft picks only to continue to suck for years.
The Cavs had the #1 pick 3 out of 4 years and they would have continued to suck if they hadn't gotten back their former #1 pick (aka the best player in the world) and use another #1 pick to trade for Kevin Love.
How long have the 76ers been rebuilding? How many top picks did they have? They currently have 10 wins.
Half of Minnesota's roster is full of top picks, including two #1 picks. They have 12 wins.
Yeah, yeah...they are young, they could develop. Or more likely, they will be a middling team with zero chance at winning anything.
Yeah, I know the chance at winning a championship is slim to none...doesn't mean that I want to see shitty basketball for years and years. I'll take a playoff series win or two each season with the outside chance at getting lucky. Every day of the week. Otherwise, what the hell is the point?
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Yup. I have said this all along. This redundant, dead-end strategy we keep trying to employ where we add aged vets and try to just be "competitive" and make the playoffs is useless. This gets you nowhere in the NBA.
We have a kid worth building a team around now. That was one of the biggest first steps. We need to accumulate assets, get younger, and look to build a sustainable winner.
Putting teams like this on the court year in and year out is a waste of time. The Knicks aren't going anywhere with this roster.
I agree with this but I don't think that was ever going to be an option under Phil Jackson.
This is a 70 guy with god complex (I might be stretching there) that is used to winning at a pretty steady clip. He was never going to go through the long rebuild. Phil took the road where they possibly have an small outside chance to make some noise in the next 3/4 years and then start over again. And I can't say I blame him. In theory, this should be a very competitive team.
What's frustrating the most to me is that 90% of the problems with this team are between their ears. I look at the east and have a hard time understanding how we are so much worse than the Celtics and everyone behind them (talent-wise). I just don't believe it. Not when you have KP, Melo, Rose, and the rest of the supporting cast. To me, they have enough to be competitive and have a small chance to make some noise if they get lucky.
The problem is that you'd need these veteran Knick players to change up their game. You'd need them to be aggressive. You'd need them to be open-minded. You'd need them to be coachable. Unfortunately, veteran players are who they are. You aren't going to be able to mold and coach them (IMO) like younger players. Therefore, you then need to rely on how good they WERE and hope they can continue or repeat that. That's where the Knicks are and it's a thin line to walk.
This is a close-minded, undisciplined, low IQ team that is sinking fast. And it sucks because I know they could be a lot better. Obviously not the best, but that's just the NBA these days.
I'd rather be competitive with a shot (however small it may be) then to sit around for 10+ years and wait for the next MJ or Lebron to walk through the door (and have it never happen).
"In theory this should be a very competitive team". What??? Am I missing something? We didn't have a top 30 NBA player going into the season when the competitive teams have multiple top 20-30 players. We knew this going into the season.
can you name any defensive player of note on this roster? Noah?? Even last year he's fallen off many steps from his prime days.
Fair enough. And I hate the idea of tanking for years to stockpile draft picks only to continue to suck for years.
The Cavs had the #1 pick 3 out of 4 years and they would have continued to suck if they hadn't gotten back their former #1 pick (aka the best player in the world) and use another #1 pick to trade for Kevin Love.
How long have the 76ers been rebuilding? How many top picks did they have? They currently have 10 wins.
Half of Minnesota's roster is full of top picks, including two #1 picks. They have 12 wins.
Yeah, yeah...they are young, they could develop. Or more likely, they will be a middling team with zero chance at winning anything.
Yeah, I know the chance at winning a championship is slim to none...doesn't mean that I want to see shitty basketball for years and years. I'll take a playoff series win or two each season with the outside chance at getting lucky. Every day of the week. Otherwise, what the hell is the point?
Who said tank for years? Frankly, I think with some talent around him it will be hard to "tank" with KP within a few seasons. That's what sets us apart from the Kyrie Cavs. And the TWolves will be good soon. Their KP is KAT, and he is also just in his second year. And the Sixers have gotten unlucky with health. Embiid was supposed to be back a year earlier, and Ben Simmons was not expected to get hurt.
Fundamentally, I think the parade of horribles argument about tanking, that it's not gonna work and will take years, is just cover for the lack of good arguments for restocking with the likes of Rose and Noah. I mean, you want to complain about uber tanks taking too long -- well remind me the last team that did a rebuild like the 2016-17 Knicks and got anywhere.
Who said tank for years? Frankly, I think with some talent around him it will be hard to "tank" with KP within a few seasons. That's what sets us apart from the Kyrie Cavs. And the TWolves will be good soon. Their KP is KAT, and he is also just in his second year. And the Sixers have gotten unlucky with health. Embiid was supposed to be back a year earlier, and Ben Simmons was not expected to get hurt.
Fundamentally, I think the parade of horribles argument about tanking, that it's not gonna work and will take years, is just cover for the lack of good arguments for restocking with the likes of Rose and Noah. I mean, you want to complain about uber tanks taking too long -- well remind me the last team that did a rebuild like the 2016-17 Knicks and got anywhere.
So, since it would be hard to "tank" with KP so we are going to surround him with mid-round picks and have a better roster than we do right now? I guess it's possible.
The argument against tanking/restocking isn't a cover...it's reality. Was I a fan of the Rose and Noah trade/signing? Not particularly...but there was some upside that could have been had. It was a risk that could have worked out. Unfortunately, we have two former superstars who still feel they are premier talents...when they clearly are not. But at least Melo COULD be a very valuable player if he had any semblance of self-awareness.
There really isn't a right or wrong answer on this and we are obviously on different sides of the coin with our view points. I saw the upside of what Phil was doing. But it hasn't gone our way. The reality is...unless you luck into a HOF/generational talent, and then sign/draft two all stars and then build around that...you ain't winning shit. That's NBA basketball as we know it. Therefore, I'd rather enjoy a competitive team that has a small chance at winning a championship than a shit show year after year with an even smaller chance at building something better.
Not sure what you are getting at. When exactly did the current Rockets ever tank? The Warriors sucked for 20 years - kinda proves my point. The Thunder? Er, I guess I'll give you that one. What exactly have they won again?
The Spurs? Really? A perennially awesome team that lost their MVP to injury so they decided to tank that ONE year and lucked into Tim Duncan? And then went right back to winning all the time? Come on man.
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The Warriors, the old thunder and the current rockets from anti-tanking arguments. I'll save the Spurs as well.
Not sure what you are getting at. When exactly did the current Rockets ever tank? The Warriors sucked for 20 years - kinda proves my point. The Thunder? Er, I guess I'll give you that one. What exactly have they won again?
The Spurs? Really? A perennially awesome team that lost their MVP to injury so they decided to tank that ONE year and lucked into Tim Duncan? And then went right back to winning all the time? Come on man.
The Knicks have sucked for 20 years, how many consecutive first round picks have they strung together in that span? Obviously they hit on late round picks- all these teams do (Draymond, Parker, Ibaka) but they have success with their top picks.
Are we seriously going to deem the thunder drafting 3 future MVP candidates a disaster that shouldn't be followed? A finals appearance is something this team hasn't seen in a long time. You're going to say you saw the "upside" in this current roster but say the thunder did things incorrectly? Talk about homerism.
My point with the Spurs is that they were built off 2 #1 overall picks like how the thunder and warriors were built off top picks. Sure they tanked when they ran into injuries. But fundamentally they were built off top college prospects that went high in the draft.
Back to this "upside". What the hell was the upside? There were no top 30 NBA players on this roster. The upside was a first round exit via the Cavs or Raptors. Sure maybe the 4th-5th seed was in play if Noah regained 80% of peak performance but that's more telling of the mediocrity of the east than how good of a roster phil put together. This team's defenses prospects weren't looking good because Rose and Melo were a big part of it. Lee is closer to "not a liability" than "defensive stopper" on that end. 2015 Noah showed that he was still decent on defense but if he couldn't anchor a good defense with Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson imagine then idk how much you could expect.
I think his play has leveled off. He has to shot block and rebound better and then become a better post defender as he adds muscle.
I dont get this attitude at all. The "KP's peak starts in 4 years so until then we can mess around" attitude. That's not how you build a team. You cant wake up in year 5 or year 6 of KP and add a lot of talent all at once. IT's the Lebron on the Cavs 1.0 problem. It's hard to get talent and you cant waste time and effort with mess around rosters.
We should be in asset accumulation mode. Getting higher picks and signing younger FAs who could maybe blossom (hard in this environment).
I'm not quite sure how you got "KP's peak starts in 4 years so until then we can mess around" from what I said. I also think you're misinterpreting what the Cavs problem was.
- They used their sole post-LeBron (while he was still there) lottery pick on Luke Jackson.
- Another post-LeBron lottery pick was traded back in 1997.
- They drafted Shannon Brown with a 1st round pick.
- They used a 1st round pick on JJ Hickson. (Here are some of the next 7 players drafted directly after Hickson: Ryan Anderson, Courtney Lee, Serge Ibaka, Nicolas Batum, & George Hill.)
- They traded a 1st round pick for Jiri Welsch.
- They use a 1st pick on some guy named Christian Eyenga, who would play 51 games in his NBA career.
The Cavs problem is that they consistently made bad moves after lucking into James... not that they waited until he was at his peak to acquire talent. They could've been acquiring talent all that time (like the Spurs), but they just made 1 shitty decision after another. Chances are the Knicks won't strike gold with every 1st round draft pick. But they can't do what the Cavs did and strike gold with NONE of them.
The Knicks and Phil have failed at one thing and one thing only here: finding the right head coach.
There was no magic formula that the Knicks missed out on that would have afforded this team a bunch of young rising stars. They had no resources. Now they do.
Hire the right coach. Let Rose walk. Go from there.
The Knicks and Phil have failed at one thing and one thing only here: finding the right head coach.
There was no magic formula that the Knicks missed out on that would have afforded this team a bunch of young rising stars. They had no resources. Now they do.
Hire the right coach. Let Rose walk. Go from there.
cap space is a resource and it was squandered on 1+1 deals for guys like Affalo/Williams and then Noah. Teams use cap space all the time to supplement their stash of assets. It can be done. Phil chose to go in a different direction. And now here they are nearly 4 years into his tenure with exactly 2 young players of note.
What I always find amusing is the folks who defend Phil and loved the Rose trade by saying they traded nothing for Rose. If that's the case, then where is the criticism for signing Lopez and wasting a pick on Grant?
I didn't say the Knicks hit on every move. I don't care...you win.
Like I said...ASSET MGMT. The Knicks have more chips today than they did 3 years ago. That's not saying much but it's better than the alternative.
They need a HC and they need to add more young pieces. They haven't compromised that no matter how much you insist otherwise.
I'd love to hear about how they're in "pretty good shape". There's some quality players that are likely going to be made available via trade over the next few weeks. Are the Knicks in a position to acquire any of these players? They're not. Do the Knicks have max cap room this summer? They don't. Are we draft pick positive, neutral, or negative going forward (including second rounders)? They are draft pick negative. Were you aware of any of this? Of course not.
it's not a secret. Follow the league and you might learn something.
Like I said...ASSET MGMT. The Knicks have more chips today than they did 3 years ago. That's not saying much but it's better than the alternative.
They need a HC and they need to add more young pieces. They haven't compromised that no matter how much you insist otherwise.
asset management? Holy fuck you're lost. If you're going to claim Lopez and Grant were assets (I happen to agree with that)...then how do you call it good asset management when two cost controlled guys going forward are moved for two guys who are free agents this summer and likely to leave?
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..we're not going over this again. The Knicks from a roster MGMT pov are in pretty good shape.
I'd love to hear about how they're in "pretty good shape". There's some quality players that are likely going to be made available via trade over the next few weeks. Are the Knicks in a position to acquire any of these players? They're not. Do the Knicks have max cap room this summer? They don't. Are we draft pick positive, neutral, or negative going forward (including second rounders)? They are draft pick negative. Were you aware of any of this? Of course not.
Now you're just making shit up. The Knicks have all their picks how is that negative? They HAD NO PICKS and actually GAINED PICKS from 3 years ago. You're making shit up. The Knicks are better today than they were 2-3 years ago. There was literally no magic formula that anyone was going to utilize here. The Knicks had NOTHING at their disposal except one lottery pick in 2014 and that was it.
You act like Phil inherited a clean canvas 3 years ago. He inherited a disaster of epic proportions. He inherited bad contracts, worse players and no future picks except the one I mentioned, which he turned into KP. HE also landed Gomez and Cheese. Signed O'Quinn.
[quote] In comment 13321109 djm said:
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could the Knicks use their cap space from last year or the year before to stockpile young assets?
it's not a secret. Follow the league and you might learn something. [/quote
Nice way to skip the question. Follow my ass. HOws that.
The Knicks would still be a mess if they signed 1-2 younger hot names in FA to big deals. But they'd have those young players you get all excited about. And we'd be FUCKED and locked in to 38 wins for the next 5 years.
Lose the title, gut your bench and sign the 2nd best player in the league. The Cavs have used all those young assests to get guys like Frye and Korver....oops.
The problem with the knicks is the same problem with 90% of the league. Without a megastar, your in pergatory until you get 2-3 young all-stars. They have one in Porz. Nothing they do now until Lebron stops winning is going to matter.
Let Rose play his contract out. Let Melo do the same. Tank a year here and there and hope you hit one in the lottery. Until then, it doesnt matter what they do.
There are 3-4 teams that are contenders every year. This year, there is 2.
The Knicks would still be a mess if they signed 1-2 younger hot names in FA to big deals. But they'd have those young players you get all excited about. And we'd be FUCKED and locked in to 38 wins for the next 5 years.
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In comment 13321098 djm said:
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..we're not going over this again. The Knicks from a roster MGMT pov are in pretty good shape.
I'd love to hear about how they're in "pretty good shape". There's some quality players that are likely going to be made available via trade over the next few weeks. Are the Knicks in a position to acquire any of these players? They're not. Do the Knicks have max cap room this summer? They don't. Are we draft pick positive, neutral, or negative going forward (including second rounders)? They are draft pick negative. Were you aware of any of this? Of course not.
Now you're just making shit up. The Knicks have all their picks how is that negative? They HAD NO PICKS and actually GAINED PICKS from 3 years ago. You're making shit up. The Knicks are better today than they were 2-3 years ago. There was literally no magic formula that anyone was going to utilize here. The Knicks had NOTHING at their disposal except one lottery pick in 2014 and that was it.
You act like Phil inherited a clean canvas 3 years ago. He inherited a disaster of epic proportions. He inherited bad contracts, worse players and no future picks except the one I mentioned, which he turned into KP. HE also landed Gomez and Cheese. Signed O'Quinn.
did you miss the part where I included second rounders when talking about draft picks going forward? It's right there in black and white. They are draft pick negative going forward. Like a lot of other things, it would appear you are simply unaware, misinformed, or just fucking stupid.
you're not even following what I'm saying. It's really not that complicated a concept. But if you want to go that route...it's not worth discussing any "27 year old player making max money " because Phil can't even get meetings with them.
where did I say that? Your'e so lost.
what? where am I advocating for that? You're all over the place. Please try to pay attention.
The Knicks would still be a mess if they signed 1-2 younger hot names in FA to big deals. But they'd have those young players you get all excited about. And we'd be FUCKED and locked in to 38 wins for the next 5 years.
Sorry what's the ceiling of wins on this team?
1. When are they going to win?
2. Will the talent stay after rookie deal, and will they be any good by then?
3. Will the draw any FA while they suck?
Plus you throw teams in like Phx, Sacramento, Denver, amongsts many other teams who are terrible every year. Even teams like the Charlotte and Utah were terrible for a few years seems to be in purgatory (yes Utah is better, but they arent a threat in the west).
You still have to be competitive to draw interest from big names to come and play for you.
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any name...gimme a name that cures all our ailments. Please. I am all ears. What young 27 year old player making max money was coming here and fixing everything? Take your time.
you're not even following what I'm saying. It's really not that complicated a concept. But if you want to go that route...it's not worth discussing any "27 year old player making max money " because Phil can't even get meetings with them.
You said the Knicks should have turned their cap space into something tangible or legit or whatever it was you said.
So please, enlighten me. What could the Knicks have done with that cap space? They could have locked into a younger (hopefully) up n coming player...am I right? Who? And can you guarantee us that this player earns his salary? Who is that player? Or are you saying that the Knicks could have turned that space into more draft picks? I'm not trying to argue...I just want to know what they could have done. As is at least they have cap space coming in 2 years and they could possibly wiggle free this summer if needed, although i don't even think there are any legit max players coming free this summer, but I could be wrong.
Knicks have never been a big FA draw. Our only big FA signing ever really was Amar'e, and no one else was willing to pay him
3-4 years ago the Knicks had less picks than they do now. Period!!!! Your're twisting shit around. I know they have less 2nds than most teams. THEY were faced with WORSE than that 3 years back! They gained assets. Maybe not a lot...but they did. You can't admit to this. You refuse.
You wonder if some regret it. I mean AD in Chicago or new york or LA is probably happier.
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This we know the answer to. Outside of Greg Monroe, EVERYONE has taken that first extension. With the new CBA, everyone (with the possible exception of guys makes 75 million in endorsements) will take the second extension.
You wonder if some regret it. I mean AD in Chicago or new york or LA is probably happier.
But dat $$. Boogie just resigned. Boogie.
That would be nice, but I dont think any HC was going to do much here. Either you have a good roster or a young roster. A bad but not young roster, especially one that has some skill, is terribly hard to keep contented. Guys like Rose, Noah, and Melo know what winning basketball looks and feels like, even if you can hang the blame on them in particular. It's hard for any coach to get thru under those circumstances.
Just my perspective, but the biggest problem I have with Phil is that he played the odds wrong. Smart at first in clearing the team of debris. Always in my heart for having the balls to take KP. And I thought the Rolo signing was smart -- contract that looked big but would look better as the cap expanded, player in his 20s. For some reason, Phil got off the bus this offseason. Maybe he thought Melo forced his hand. Maybe Dolan (I doubt it), or his own ego. Or a misread of talent. But the win now 2016 offseason made no sense. There were not good odds/precedent of it working.
3-4 years ago the Knicks had less picks than they do now. Period!!!! Your're twisting shit around. I know they have less 2nds than most teams. THEY were faced with WORSE than that 3 years back! They gained assets. Maybe not a lot...but they did. You can't admit to this. You refuse.
I said they were draft pick negative. You said the following:
please go away. You can't even keep your bullshit opinions straight.
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In comment 13321202 Deej said:
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This we know the answer to. Outside of Greg Monroe, EVERYONE has taken that first extension. With the new CBA, everyone (with the possible exception of guys makes 75 million in endorsements) will take the second extension.
You wonder if some regret it. I mean AD in Chicago or new york or LA is probably happier.
But dat $$. Boogie just resigned. Boogie.
Money always wins. They should never cry about never winning though. Boogie and AD will never win in their places.
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the biggest mistake of Phil's tenure here is the HC. He failed their miserably. If Phil brought in the right guy to run this team they'd look a lot better right now. Horn is in over his head here in NYC. He needs to go to a small team with no egos and do his thing. He will succeed somewhere else, not here. This team needs a dictator. Someone bigger than the parts.
That would be nice, but I dont think any HC was going to do much here. Either you have a good roster or a young roster. A bad but not young roster, especially one that has some skill, is terribly hard to keep contented. Guys like Rose, Noah, and Melo know what winning basketball looks and feels like, even if you can hang the blame on them in particular. It's hard for any coach to get thru under those circumstances.
Just my perspective, but the biggest problem I have with Phil is that he played the odds wrong. Smart at first in clearing the team of debris. Always in my heart for having the balls to take KP. And I thought the Rolo signing was smart -- contract that looked big but would look better as the cap expanded, player in his 20s. For some reason, Phil got off the bus this offseason. Maybe he thought Melo forced his hand. Maybe Dolan (I doubt it), or his own ego. Or a misread of talent. But the win now 2016 offseason made no sense. There were not good odds/precedent of it working.
Phil came out and said Melo's exit interview (where he asked for a PG) influenced his "plan". It's all so ridiculous.
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In comment 13320444 Deej said:
I dont get this attitude at all. The "KP's peak starts in 4 years so until then we can mess around" attitude. That's not how you build a team. You cant wake up in year 5 or year 6 of KP and add a lot of talent all at once. IT's the Lebron on the Cavs 1.0 problem. It's hard to get talent and you cant waste time and effort with mess around rosters.
We should be in asset accumulation mode. Getting higher picks and signing younger FAs who could maybe blossom (hard in this environment).
I'm just a drive by shooter on this thread: I agree with Deej's take in the above post as well as his in a later one saying there was no way Knicks were going to be serious contenders this year, so why load up on Joakim and Rose.
But in terms of KP being the guy you build around, that is the conventional wisdom, but it may be flawed thinking. He's a very young guy and a lot of maturing, physically and mentally, to go along with his outsized talent. But I am not sure KP is "the" guy to be the centerpiece; he may require another outsized talent, more robust and physical, whether at the 1, 3, 4, or 5 in order to completely settle in. His talent is way up there, but it is not impeccable in the sense that he is indefensible even as his game develops: he's not going to be strong/physical enough for that, and certainly not quick enough for that, down the road, imo.
I believe he is going to need the next Melo (God forbid), i.e., the next piece that can constantly draw doubles and collapsing away from him. The other question I have is whether he is capable of having the killer mentality on the court to become the undisputed leader on the court. That's an open question whether that is in his genes. I am not saying he is not a great pick and that he is not--part of--the future of the team, just that to load "the future" primarily on his shoulders may be a bridge too far.